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 woodrow9876
Joined: 12/29/2004
Msg: 3
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atheism vs. christianityPage 6 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Theism and atheism are very similar as they are simply opposite sides of the same belief coin.

Those who believe in a god, with certainty, have a wide range of 'degrees'. Some simply have their beliefs, consider them as such ( these are 'my' beliefs, nothing more) and are satisfied to leave others to whatever they believe. Others who believe in god to a more extreme extent are unable to go without preaching it, in one form or another.

Those who do not believe any god exists, with certainty, have a wide range of 'degrees' also. Much like those who believe in god. Atheists hellbent (pun entirely intended) on preaching it are just as annoying, intrusive and misguided as their religious counterparts.

Agnostics, on the other hand, seem to be the ones that have this 'world is grey, and I'm okay with grey' approach to the world of spirituality. It's a sense of 'whatever' in that if there is a god out there, then this will become known to me soon enough and if there isn't, well, this world has plenty of good, bad and indifferent as it is...doesn't make a big difference.

The battle, then, as I see it is not so much 'Atheist VERSUS Christian' (although I think I speak for all agnostics when I say I would shell out $19.95 in a heartbeat to watch THAT cagematch on pay per view)...

But rather, the battle is extremes of certainty versus those who take their spiritual beliefs as their own, no one's business but theirs and others' beliefs are none of theie business either.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled prophesying...

PS- I predict TKO in the fourth round...Atheist feints left, Christian wallops him with a vicious bended knee...but then turns the other cheek and gets flattened.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 4
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atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 3/8/2005 8:23:01 PM
Slick your logic is way off. You did hit on a point though that is often overlooked. Just because someone is a Christian and believes it to be the only truth, dosen't mean that he has to disagree with everything about another religion. Buddha said some good things. So did Mohammed. Jesus Christ however said "I am the Truth". Siddhartha and Mohammed never made that claim.

P.S.--Good one Woodrow. I laughed.
 woodrow9876
Joined: 12/29/2004
Msg: 8
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atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 3/9/2005 3:16:39 PM
That was preaching?

d*mn...I was sure that was Yoda's line in Empire Strikes Back about the force.

Ah, well, whatever it is you want to believer...

Do or do not...there is no try. (wishing there was a big ole rolling the eyes emoticon...)
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 10
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atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 7/19/2006 11:54:13 PM
Like I always say, "It takes alot of faith to be an atheist".
 woodrow9876
Joined: 12/29/2004
Msg: 16
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atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/2/2006 8:46:49 PM

You can chose to not believe, but all I have to say is what have I got to lose if I am wrong vs what you have to lose if you are wrong? If I am wrong, I will just rot in the ground, if you are wrong, it could be an eternity in Hell.... The choice is yours, I choose life. Not to use scare tactics, but it really is a matter of eternal salvation vs eternal damnation.


Oh, that is rich. Um, I'm thinking you're making a bit of an iffy assumption there...as if it's a fifty-fifty proposition between Christianity and Atheism. I mean, technically, if it ends up we're meeting Allah and the muslims have it right...well, we're both gonna be thinking this latest heat wave is a Christmas tour in Anchorage.

What do you have to lose? Well, a lifetime of NOT living in certain ways. A lifetime of not experiencing things, or judging the actions or behaviours of others...instead of trying them or at least embracing their choices to do what they wish.

And let's be clear...your 'scare' tactics...are only really valid for you. The prospect of hell isn't really a big deal for someone who doesn't believe in its existence. For the record, that's not just athiests...jews also kinda don't believe in the hellfire thing...it's why every time you folks go into your 'jews for jesus' or warning of the Revellations...since jews don't buy it, the endtimes aren't really a going concern. They appreciate all the money and guns from the very christian American government...but that's it.

But you seem to be saying 'hey, better safe than sorry...' And if you're gonna do that, you best at least lay a small wager on the other major religions as well.

Throw a fiver down on the jews...get a rabbi there on the deathbed, just to be sure Yaweh ain't pissed you missed Hannekah all these years.

Oh, and fiver on the muslim faith.

And let's be clear here, the protestants think the catholics are sinners and the catholics? Sheesh...catholics think EVERY other christian sect is going to hell. Except United. They think United church goers are going to hell...they just refuse to acknowledge they're even christian.

So fivers on the Catholics, the protestants and what the hell...united too.

Oh, and let's hear it for Nirvana. The buddhists...ooh baby the budhists.

And sikhs.

Wiccans? Actually, nah, they'd just blow the five bucks on weed.

Anyway, you see what I'm saying...your scare tactics aren't really as worrisome for people who haven't spent a lifetime of having hellfire scare tactics burned into their subconscious. For you it gives you the willies...the rest of us? A cute fable with a scary ending that is meant to make the children behave.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 35
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atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/9/2006 9:50:14 PM
Mr. JayM, Christianity is based on Faith, true, but it is also a pyschogically sound belief system. Secular pyschiatrists have said so. It does not promise absurd rewards like 72 Virgins to dally with (darn), and is the only major religion that informs us that our righteousness is as filthy rags and that no amount of effort on our part will ever be good enough.

By the way, the Bible also states that the world is round. Guess society wasn't listening back then either.........
 dogar2007
Joined: 5/24/2006
Msg: 37
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atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/10/2006 5:26:24 AM
The atheist says that since you cannot prove the existence of God, I will assume he does not exist. This is actually very logical, because I follow the same reasoning when I assume there are no ghosts in my house. I can't prove there aren't, but it is sufficient for me that I can't prove there ARE any.

I find it interesting that many people in the USA seem to think everyone is pretty much either a Christian or an atheist.

I am neither.

But to say there is no truth greater than another implies there is no truth worth finding, only the searching is important.
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 38
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/10/2006 11:19:43 AM

The atheist says that since you cannot prove the existence of God, I will assume he does not exist. This is actually very logical, because I follow the same reasoning when I assume there are no ghosts in my house. I can't prove there aren't, but it is sufficient for me that I can't prove there ARE any.


Eh...no...Atheists don't believe there is anything to prove at all. There is no question of belief or disbelief.

It really isn't that hard of a principle to understand.

We're born. We live. We die. That's our lives. You can live them by a moral code or not, you can believe in god (note the spelling) or not, and you can be a 'good person' or not, they're all choices you can make. You cannot choose not to die though.

Religion offers you that 'choice'. This makes it very attractive, because now you can choose to live for however long you want presumably, provided you donate money to the church and do this and say that. How convenient.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in god. There is no rational evidence to suggest a god exists, and as Carl Sagan said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." There's no reason to suggest a god exists. Believers will cite a variety of excuses at this point to defend their safety net, generally involving the universe and it's existence or the fact that I can't prove a god doesn't exist.

I'm confused though, just where not understanding meant a supernatural power was involved. I can't understand German but i'm pretty sure they're just speaking with different words. I might not be able to explain a magic trick, but that doesn't mean an explanation doesn't exist. Just because the universe is vast, enormous and beyond our understanding does not mean it could not have just existed. (Theists suggest it had to created, wrongly involving time and substituting god for matter as something that can just exist. I love hypocritical arguments.)

The other theory of course is that I can't disprove a god exists. Now, at this point my first response is of course the comment on atheism which is, "I cannot prove god doesn't exist, but I'm so sure he doesn't I don't want to waste my time." That being said, that wouldn't appease theists so let me ask you how is your idea of a god - all powerful, that just exists, and is an answer that may never be questioned - any more right then my telling you there's a green man living in my toaster who is all powerful and is god, and in fact, created the universe.

There's no difference. None. I have no proof he exists other then what he says through his prophet (me), and you have no prove of god's existence either. The two are equally likely, but yet one you would instinctively judge as rediculous when you use your brain (you know, that thing in your head?), the other you wrap yourself in like a warm blanket? It's hypocritical.

Someone here posted that wouldn't it be better to believe in god then not, incase the atheists are wrong? To which I reply no. If there truly is an all powerful god (which I don't believe there is), then I doubt he would concern himself overly much about whether people SAID they believed in him or not. For example, if there exists a priest that molests children and goes to heaven anyway, it is not a god I care to spend eternity with. I believe that's wrong.

Now if actions speak louder then words, and he can go to hell because of his actions, provided of course, it exists, then in that case what difference does it make that he spoke the words that he believed in god? It was his actions that defined his eternity. If that's the case, and hypothetically there is a heaven, then good people who do not believe will still go there.

In fact, you have to accept this as a reality in your deluded beliefs anyway, unless you intend to claim all Jews, Muslims, Boudhists, Hindu's, etc are going to go to hell because they don't believe what you do. There's far more then 2 belief systems (though calling atheism a religion is pretty much like calling bald a hair colour).

Not to mention of course that, if you really do have an all-powerful god, free will doesn't exist, and people have absolutely no choice over what exists and what does not.

If god is all-powerful, he is therefore also omnipotent. Most religions come out and state this anyway, but even if you assume the religion says nothing, in order for him to be all powerful he must be omnipotent; or he is not all-powerful. He must also be all-knowing, and know the future and the past in their entirety, again, because he's all-powerful and knowledge falls under his powers. At the very least, he has to be ABLE to know, if he so decides, which implies he has to acknowledge his knowledge.

Now, if god knows my future - that means I really never actually make a choice. I have an illusion of choice, in a situation where I think I have 2 choices, but since the outcome is already decided and the result is already known to god, I actually don't have a choice. Choice implies I could, in theory, pick either one. For god's all-powerful knowledge to be true, I can't, I can only pick whichever he 'knows' I will pick, and thus I really have no choice in the matter at all. In fact, since his knowledge of each person's life would have to be known before they even were born, you would never choose anything and never have any choice.

Therefore if you're going to hell or heaven would be pre-determined, and you could not be held accountable for your beliefs. If you reject the argument that he must be all-knowing, then the return argument is immediately then he cannot be all-powerful, which means he is just "powerful". If this is the case, then it is quite possible building the universe is outside of his power, and that we are too complex, and etc.

Any argument involving god is ludicrous, and fundamentally flawed. It asks you to ignore logic, reason, and scientific method and instead deal with faith and wishy-washy statements. Atheism, on the other hand, is a personal choice based on the information you have available to you. It is not a religion or a cult.

It is simply individuals (non-Atheists) seeking to find a term to identify people who are what I would refer to as 'sane'.

-Matt
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 39
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/10/2006 11:59:54 AM
I wouldn't call the belief in a higher power (of any form) atheism, since by nature atheism chooses to belief nothing beyond what is factually evident.

I do not believe in a higher power, karma, faith, or anything of that nature...

EDIT: (I forgot to post this in the original post I made, but bleh. I want to say it anyway)
"I contend that we are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 81
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/16/2006 8:33:17 AM
atheism is a cop out. Atheism is like the big denial.
these people are worse than those other christians who merely sit on the bench and weakly say "i believe".


HAHAHA! Dude you shouldn't do that, I'm at work, my coworkers might get pissed but that was FUNNY.

Especially after I JUST read your post that Christianity offers comfort and atheism none, and yet atheism is a cop-out. Wow. The depths of your perception leave me breathless in anticipation, awaiting your next brilliant remark.


Well i dont see any signs of god (youre blind then)


Have you seen the green man in your toaster? He's the actual creator of the universe. No? Oh so you're blind?


and he hasnt spoken to me (u wouldnt know it unless it was a damascus road experience anyway)


You haven't talked to my green man? Geeze you're missing out. What's that? But I don't want to wear that jacket :(. I don't like hugging myself anymore :'(.


You dont look for him and u putter about in religious forums when u clearly dont have any belief.


We're not looking for god. We know he isn't there. We don't need to delude ourselves that when we die, we're dead. We don't need artificial comfort or support. We are trying to prevent others from following in your footsteps and throwing their lives away on something that isn't there.


Getting on your knees and praying to someone who created all this from scratch doesnt even enter your mind.


I'm still waiting for your explanation as to why you must be right. In fact, I'm waiting for you to explain how my green man in my toaster is any different from your god. Late probably could do it, he's bright. Unfortunately for you, most religious fanatics for yourself, don't have the IQ to understand this concept or to note the hole in my argument. It exists. Of course, any argument based on theology has holes, that's obvious, since any theistic belief is fundamentally flawed :p.


Humbleness grasps the mind of one who has a concept of god. One might think conciete lay in there somewhere.


So the pedophile priest is humble? I know a lot of non-religious people who are humble and a lot of religious ones who aren't. I strongly doubt you could find a strong correlation between beliefs and humility.


A fencesitter with no balls to admit that god exists. Terrific. Well thought :P


I love when people are ignorant. I'm a fence sitter? How? I'm quite convicted in my belief. There's no doubt. I don't need to reassure myself of it. I'm convinced. I try to convince others, because I'm a nice person, but if you want to waste your life I won't stop you.

Also, I fail to see how standing up against 98% of the world (the theistic population of this earth) lacks balls. Atheists stand up AGAINST convention, throw away their safety nets and blankets and fight for what they believe. That has guts. Spewing the crap you learned at your bible-belt school does not. Maybe you're confused.


With athiests it all comes down to the final crunch. You're in hospital, dying, slowly.. how do u feel now?


I die. It was a good run, now it's at an end. I hope the world is a better place because I lived then it would be if I hadn't. There's no changing my belief.


Any security in the afterlife with athiesm?


See, that's where we're different. I believe what I do because I'm right and know it in my heart and mind; not because i'm afraid of the possibility of being wrong. You are. It terrifies you. The prospect of no afterlife concerns you; it doesn't bother atheists, we don't believe it exists anyway.


You've created for yourself, a free ride situation, now doesnt that feel comfy?


What free ride? Living our lives the way we wish? They're our lives. Tell me something.

If this god exists, and he's so vain as to need your prayers and re-assurances, why do you think you'll be free in your next life, if not this one?


Proof is in the pudding, let me know when youre dying and im gonna wonder if u mention his name.


I won't, because unlike you, the concept of death does not scare me. I get to live and enjoy this life, I don't need another to make up for the one I lost to religion.

 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 83
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/16/2006 11:47:53 AM

The other interesting facet to this thread is that most of those who call themselves Christian, agree in principle with the Atheist perspective, ...when applied to religions OTHER than Christianity.


I'm reminded of this:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 87
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/17/2006 7:37:42 AM

I think the OP summed it up jus' fine-


Can't agree w/ you on that Late.

As an atheist, i find the idea of a god rediculous on the scale of the green man in my toaster.

As such, I feel that theists, in general, are leading themselves down a deceptive path.

It's one thing to be a theist and comfortable with your beliefs, and still live your life 'normally' and seeking just happiness, love, acceptance, etc. That's one thing, and is no more different then someone who chooses to approach the world from a conservative perspective as opposed to a liberal.

However, it's a totally different thing to be fanatically theist, or even at the level of the majority, and within that sense, I don't think atheism and christianity are even in the same league.

Atheism has never asked money of me. It has never judged me. It has never told me I could not love. It has never told me I could not be happy. It has never demanded I surrender my free will to a divine plan. It has never demanded I exchange time on this earth for a future promise.

My beliefs have asked nothing of me. My convictions are my own, and strive for what I view as a better world.

Right or wrong - when I die one day I will know, on my death bed, I stood and fought for what I believed. I will fade from this earth with that knowledge, and if I was wrong all these years then I did not trade my life for nothing.

I didn't gamble the my life today, which is priceless and I can only ever have one of, for a future promise that I have no certain knowledge of. And I will always know that - no matter what. The rest, doesn't matter.

-Pyke
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 88
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/17/2006 9:19:47 AM
I don't consider a fanatical theist and a fanatical atheist the same thing though.

You do, but we have different beliefs.

Your argument is flawed.

It's equivelent to stating that a fanatical person arguing that everyone should be insane, is the same as someone arguing that we should be sane and act in a sane manner.

They're not equivelent.

As Douglas Adams said, certain beliefs are more valid and meaningful then others. He (and I) did not believe all beliefs were equal "just because".

I share that perspective. Is it conceited? Absolutely, it assumes I'm right. However, even still, the fanatical atheist is not the same. We argue for rational and clear thought. We don't ask people for money. We don't ask people to stop living their lives. We don't ask people to trade this life for the next.

We ask people to evaluate life and come to logical conclusions. It's not the same thing.

-Pyke
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 89
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/17/2006 9:36:23 AM
That depends entirely on if you're going by the written definition of the word or the socially accepted definition.

Language evolves and meanings change. I would argue that contextually speaking, if people spoke of atheists they likely mean people who would rate such a man as about as likely as the idea of a god, to them.

-Pyke

P.S.: It's a green man dude, he isn't yellow; unless you're into Descartes theories anyway! :p
 Melodic Euphoria
Joined: 3/22/2005
Msg: 91
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/17/2006 11:39:42 AM
Could it be possible that atheism is a form of christianity? When you think about it if jesus was and is God wouldnt his grace taken over all beliefs? If you read the bible with an open mind, doesnt seem like jesus had some buddhism beliefs, like learning to live in the moment and some things like that. Could it be possible that no matter what you believe as long as it has truth involved with it, that it could have something to do with God, but its just another path or way to salvation? I believe that atheism and christianity are actually leading to the same path, at least buddhist are. They both have to do with truth and liberation.


Actually, no. Aethism and Christianity are, by comparing their traditional definitions, vastly different beliefs - except, as you've pointed out, both BELIEVES it's THEIR path that leads to truth and liberation, and not the other. Aethism dictates: "God is BULLSHIT. Truth lies elsewhere. (And it can be found through critical thinking and scientific substantiations, IMO.)" Christianity: "God IS truth."

Who's right?

(@ Leif,

damn! ye' tryin' ta rite a gawddam novel???)
 Pyke
Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 92
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/17/2006 11:44:06 AM
Generally, and this is of course with a few, very rare exceptions, the answer to your question, as large and enormous of a question as it may be, can only be found when you, in your ultimate wisdom and reflection, read through all the commas, despite their annoying structure, and find at the end of the sentence that your answer, of all the possible answers there could be to your question, ends up being, as surprising as it may seem to one who had to read through a paragraph of comma's, me.

The above is grammatically correct. I think. :p
 Melodic Euphoria
Joined: 3/22/2005
Msg: 96
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 8/17/2006 11:15:04 PM
Matt,

I am experiencing serious circuit overload in my CPU! Wahhhhhhh!

The reason that I have trouble writing concisely so that my sentences flow easily, is that at times I am inspired to think in too many different directions on a single interesting topic and in attempting to write them all out, I may only succeed in confusing my readers.

Let me try that again...

I have trouble writing concisely. At times I get too confused on a topic beyond my comprehension and in attempting to express my confusion, naturally I succeeds in confusing my readers!

*Melodic gains +2 in eloquence. LEVEL UP!!!

If you were making fun of the way I write, ha. HA.

If you weren't, apologies for my faulty assumptions.

@ Late

Do I get a golden star

@ Leif.

Dude. Loosen up. One can't help but wonder if anybody other than Late reads your overly elaborate post. Again, I wouldn't waste pearls on the unappreciating, even if I'm not obstinately sticking to my own point of view. BUT, thanks for stirring up interesting and well informed responses. I'm sure readers will benefit from them intellectually, myself included.
 lovableladywanted
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 107
atheism vs. christianity
Posted: 1/5/2007 1:53:02 AM
The irony of it all is that the 'so called ' religious that put me down because of my atheism and doubts actually reinforce me with their crass behaviour. In a strange way they help prove my point with their hostility. Religion causes more boundaries and I see that as bad not good.
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