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Joined: 11/14/2004
Msg: 4
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Bible Myth or FactPage 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
<============ is still waiting for the zealots to find this thread, and start bashing....
Joined: 2/2/2005
Msg: 6
Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/11/2005 9:03:49 AM
Some myth, some entertainment, some fact, some history, some ritual, some records, some propiganda, some code.

Its really a schmorgasbord. I dont think you can really deffine the whole thing as one or the other in a blanket judgement.

Of course, where the lines are drawn, really depends on your own context. Last I understood, most of the Isrealites dont put a lot of faith in this Christ thing.
Joined: 2/2/2005
Msg: 44
Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/15/2005 10:13:25 AM
Agreed. I have really liked the last few posts you have made Ben.
Joined: 12/29/2004
Msg: 49
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Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/15/2005 4:39:19 PM
Okay been reading with a fair amount of interest on this, and seems there's some confusion about a couple things...

First off, the Dead Sea Scrolls have nothing to do with Christianity...they make no mention of Jesus man or god, and they are essentially incredibly valuable documents in terms of seeing a society of that time and how they lived, but little else. The scripture found was of the bible (old testament) and was simply an example of something that was very common at the time but rare to still see in existence. Copyists would produce books by copying out what existed and then those copies would be copied and so on...since books were not mass produced, and parchment/paper of the day did not last long, this was the only was to have original text preserved (albeit imperfectly, as copyists were often known to 'interpret' as they saw fit.)

The Dead Sea scrolls are stunning from a historical angle, but are hardly able to confirm anything about the veracity of the bible.

Secondly, Hebrew and English and French and pretty well every language that is found today but has a rich history has a version of it from hundreds of years back that would be unrecognizeable to us today. Try reading Beowolf.

Here's some of the original text from the prologue...

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!

Here's the translation into Modern english

LO, praise of the prowess of people-kings
of spear-armed Danes, in days long sped,
we have heard, and what honor the athelings won!
Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,
from many a tribe, the mead-bench tore,
awing the earls. Since erst he lay
friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:
for he waxed under welkin, in wealth he throve,
till before him the folk, both far and near,
who house by the whale-path, heard his mandate,
gave him gifts: a good king he!

Even the translation is a bit iffy, isn't it?

The point is, Hebrew is subject to the same things (maybe not as much, as English is a very fluid language). The experts that are trying to make out these documents into a modern version are facing very difficult things to be certain of the subtleties of meaning.

Their language hasn't been restored, it has adapted and changed over the centuries, as have about every language in the world.
Joined: 12/29/2004
Msg: 55
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Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/15/2005 7:09:46 PM
Just a quick thing on Hebrew being 'restored'.

When it disappeared around 600BC as a spoken language, it didn't disappear. It was replaced by a very similar dialect of Aramaic. This lasted onwards to 700 years later where it became more and more replaced by other languages, although in writing remained a steady and popular language.

The loss of that specific language of Hebrew is neither rare nor surprising. Languages and dialects changed and disappeared drastically as conquerors and new exploration killed off languages as easily as it did people. Gaelic, Welsh and others go through the same revival (though not to the same extent) as Hebrew has in the last little while.

With a willing population/demographic, interested and inclined to want to hold on to traditions of its people, such things are not so unbelievable (although, I'm a fan of any man willing to dedicate a life to language of any sort). Hebrew never died, it grew into other languages and tapered off with time as it evolved (pun slightly intended, considering the forum) and enjoys its revival now not as a replication of the old spoken hebrew, but as a 'best guess' reproduction of what it was thousands of years ago.
Joined: 12/29/2004
Msg: 57
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Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/16/2005 3:01:58 AM

Aramaic is similar, sure it’s from the same region there bound to share things in common. But even in Canada they speak two different languages.. French and English.. But I bet they both call a car a car or coffee, coffee.. Or you get my point..

Aramaic is similar, in fact, many scholars would have considered them nearly indentical in many respects...which is why it was so easily taken up at the time. But the English and French analogy works no more than English and Spanish in California. They're entirely different languages, with different vocabularies, grammar etc. " A car" - "un auto", 'coffee' - 'cafe', 'stop' - 'arret' and so on.

As to the spoken, the reading and usage in spoken context for most languages is very different. Very few people speak anything like what is written. Take any officially written document, whether it be a letter or law or novel, and try just talking it out. Spoken and unknown to most but scholars, the process of re-establishment includes rules and usage for all kinds of things that we don't think of (for example, imagine it was english having this done record of pronunciation or speech...just working off the words. "I aim to tow it here" Is 'aim' pronounced ' ay-aye-em' or 'ah-eee-em'? 'Tow' pronounced 'toe' or 'ow' like 'ouch'? And so on.)

The Welsh, I believe, still try to encourage their language to be an official government option, by the way, which gives you signs in Wales directing you to the english and Welsh version of a town. To give you an idea..."Craeso i Gymru" - "Welcome to Wales"

Just as most jewish people do not speak or understand hebrew, the same holds for Welsh, but it's officially the government language (or at least at par with English).

Now, how's THAT for taking a thread off topic...:) Sorry, and hope you're not minding my digression through the wonderful world of forgotten and remembered languages...
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 76
Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/19/2005 2:37:10 PM
my answer to the original post is that it's myth, not fact.

Go ahead and flame away ppls. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and well, this is mine.
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 78
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Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/19/2005 6:33:32 PM
Loci why are you babbling on about Cracker Jacks and Bubble Gum?

(Did you get the point?)
Joined: 9/16/2004
Msg: 90
Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/26/2005 12:01:38 AM
God gave too many orders and cause a lot of confusion among the believers. Will Good please stand up and clarify the mess? When? When we are dead I suppose. It is so easy.
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 95
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Bible Myth or Fact
Posted: 3/28/2005 9:53:17 PM
Loci, you might want to skim over Deuteronomy. Zzzzzz. And then there was Numbers. 1, 2, 3,......
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