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 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 227
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?Page 13 of 18    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
I really don't think money = power AUTOMATICALLY. It depends on people's attitudes towards it.
 fixitfred
Joined: 11/10/2007
Msg: 230
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:20:20 PM

I really don't think money = power AUTOMATICALLY. It depends on people's attitudes towards it.
I don't know where you live but unless you moved into the Unabombers old place Money can and does buy you power.


Fixitfred - obviously rationale is not your forte
On these POF forums I agree with you. I would feel the same way in an insane asylum.

I see you have company in your delusion so at least you won't be lonely.
I wish I could say the same about you but I'm sure you have them lining up to be with you but with an attitude like that you will constantly be looking for someone that understands you and treats like you feel you need to be treated because I don't think he exists anywhere.

Good luck with that.
Thanks, you too. Oh you were being sarcastic, I should have realized but I wasn't.

Oh and by the way - the bible was written by men for men
Strange opinion but you're entitled to it.

and like many greedy men you seem to like it.
This tells me you never read or really don't understand what's in there.

When you find many women are now finally wise to that don't come whining back here that you can't keep a woman.
I really wish we could compare track records on keeping anybody. I'm sure I would have you beat badly. POF is the woman's whine and dine area.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 231
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:29:24 PM

I don't know where you live but unless you moved into the Unabombers old place Money can buy you power.

I was speaking within the context of a relationship Fred. Previous posters made the point that the one with less income is in a one-down position and has less power within a relationship. Given how materialistic many people are these days, it certainly can be that way... however I truly don't believe it is as automatic and rigid as other posters have implied.

Power within a relationship is not directly tied to "obey" in the biblical sense.
 AnglFlynToCloseToGround
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 235
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 9:10:54 AM
If you love and honor someone then you dont hurt them and your not mean to them ... You care about them and will be true and luving and kind to them ... with that said I dont have a problem at all with the word obey ... Now days the word means sit , fetch , ush and lay ... cause ppl forget all about the love and honor ...
 fixitfred
Joined: 11/10/2007
Msg: 239
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 1:42:48 PM

You contradicted yourself. You say youdon't expect her to say obey in the vows but you'd leave her at the alter if she won't. Huh?
I don't think it was a contradiction and I have the same attitude. I mentioned it earlier. If she doesn't want to obey, I don't want to be with her. I think you misinterpret the idea behind the word. It doesn't mean to do what you're told and obey. It's more of an concept of giving one's self over.

The USA was founded in part with Judeo-Christiian values that has evolved over time along with the world. You're not even old enough to have been oppressed so why be so bitter? Perhaps you left the old country because of that but it wasn't me that opressed you. Women have equal rights and protection under the law.

Lets look at Budism and it's influence on far eastern countries where women follow a few steps behind the man or good ole' Islam where woman have to cover up can't go to school and get beaten and killed for not OBEYING the man. Then we come to America (the greatest country in the world) Where woman have legal protection and can do everything a man can do except come up with logical arguements.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 242
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:31:29 PM
Some men who posted on here, notwithstanding..

Every man I have ever known ( including my ex husband) who wanted "obey" in the vows? Wanted a submissive servant...not an equal partner...they also claimed ahead of time it didn't really mean obey, but all kinds of other sugarcoating...it still boiled down to..they felt they were superior due to being male, and thought no women were capable of intelligent thought, decisions or behavior..and had to be led ( controlled) so they did the right things.

It seems to me...if "obey" in the vows, doesn't mean "obey"..why does it need to be in there then? Use another word..that means something else..like what they claim it really means.

IMO, no one needs to obey anyone, partnerships are partnerships...decisions are made jointly...and giving someone that kind of power is asking for abuse...I know, I did it.
 Miss G
Joined: 5/1/2007
Msg: 259
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 8/12/2008 3:38:37 PM
If he's not worth obeying, he's not worth having.
 gjay1
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 260
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 8/12/2008 7:10:20 PM
blimey , just when i thought we had left the dark ages behind,
ummm david, does the word manipulative even register on your radar???? lol
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 261
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 8/13/2008 9:19:57 AM
If a couple are already arguing over the marriage vows, it may be doomed from the start.
 Sweeet Melissa
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 264
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/13/2008 12:46:44 AM
OP
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?

I have no problem with that marriage vow as long as it is said to the guy. Actually, it might even turn me on if the guy promised to Love, Honor, and OBEY. I can tell you this, if a guy did promise to obey I would make sure he kept his promise.

In all seriousness, what does it matter what vows a couple takes provided they are happy with them? They are ones that have to live with their vows, not us.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 265
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/13/2008 12:57:34 AM

The relationship is doomed to fail. Some women may not agree with this but the man was meant to be the leader of the house.


Though I agree in a way...here's my problem..or two...just being male does not make one smarter or wiser or better...trusting someone to make the best decision for you too, can be a problem...especially when most men and women don't see things the same way to begin with...

I cannot tolerate being told how to behave, especially from someone who sees things differently than I..my opinions and values are not any less valid...joint decisions and compromises, yes..and I'm willing to listen...but, if I disagree...I won't be forced into doing anything that I don't agree with...

I am not a stupid, clueless child...I can actually make intelligent decisions..and in my case...I was actually better at some things than the guy was...
 Rosalund
Joined: 4/5/2008
Msg: 267
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/13/2008 8:32:33 PM
I kind of agree ...disagree... I guess eddie27 the way you say this it sounds kind of offensive to me ..but I can see by reading the rest I agree.
Just maybe the man's pants can be jeans and T shirt instead of military uniform. And instead of him taking the lead and saying do it cause I am the leader ...the man could say walk beside me, and with his arm around her tell her " I will show you the way."
Depends on what the issue is for some things women are better at handling than a man so he also needs to have enough wisdom to let her handle things he knows she is better at doing.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 271
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/15/2008 7:07:25 PM

Why would you want to have a relationship with a man who
isn't wiser than you?


I haven't met any that are wiser than me, David...lol..j/k..kinda...

Personally, I prefer about the same...with maybe some intellectual knowledge that I lack in some areas...less wise and I have to do too much, wiser than me ( which often is a perception, not a fact), and they use it to intimidate or control....I have taken care of myself quite well for 17 years, I really don't think I need anyone else's wisdom? Now, input is nice, and I love good philosophical discussion, but, at my age, I really don't think I need "guidance"?

It just all implies to me that I am not capable of making good, intelligent decisions without the help of a guy? Besides, as I mentioned...often what they think is best or right, is so for them, but, not for me....I don't want a situation where one person (of either gender) dictates the outcome of all decisions..because they think they know better?
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 272
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/16/2008 9:26:43 AM

What happens when there are two of you to consider? Don't all women desire to be cared for by a special and loving man? Surely things must be very difficult for a man who's partner doesn't admire him in some way and refuses to listen to his advice. This makes the relationship very brittle, and emasculating for him. Furthermore in return she thinks she has to do everything herself and this makes her resentful. m


Thi s has nothing to do with admiring him in my mind..I already admire him, or I wouldn't be with him, and his opinion is valuable..I don't need advice...I need a partner, not another father figure...

I was already in one marriage where he thought he was smarter, better than me...and used that to control...and I started out trusting him to my detriment...

I am far from a fan of equality, especially in romantic relationships...but, I don't have any desire to be told how to behave, or what role to take or anything that smacks of you will be who I want you to be, not who you are.....ever again. Submissive, for me, just seems like an invitation to be abused and taken advantage of. ( yes, I ended that sentence in a preposition..lol). When, or if, I meet a guy who can be trusted to not abuse it...maybe it will be an option...until then...no way am I going to concede to inferiority just to feed someone's ego. I still don't understand why any one person has to be in control or make all the decisions..or make them unilaterally...

And I will admit...haven't met many men I could trust to honestly have my best interests at heart...in a marriage, I still think it is a partnership, not a dictatorship...regardless of who may be wiser...I'm generally cautious of any behavior that has the potential to hurt me....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 274
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/16/2008 8:29:19 PM

Very true. The wife must be given small amounts of power in
ways that are important to her, in accordance with her husband's
master plan.


HAHAHA...you are too funny...

Have to write a bit more to post...can't always tell when you are serious...but, seems I was right in my thoughts...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 275
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 9/25/2008 9:06:06 PM
Would there be sex after that?...rofl....

I admit to some reservations...I happen to be attracted to "masculine", alpha type guys...but...I am not attracted to being controlled or treated as inferior...seems to me that one can be one without the other? Then there is that trust thing...Obviously, if I trusted a guy to to not abuse any power...none of this would be an issue...however, haven't met one yet that didn't...or at least try to...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 278
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/2/2008 2:26:15 PM

First let's see how well you follow my program before we discuss your benefits.


OH...I see..the benefits come with strings?..teehee...

And only my benefit?

Seriously...this is my concern..that I have to be /behave a certain way to get love/attention/sex..whatever...and obey implies non questioning acquiescence...kind of like blind obedience...
 Argentum Crinis Philogus
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 279
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/3/2008 9:13:59 AM

I haven't met any that are wiser than me, David...lol..j/k..kinda...


True, we haven't met.

"Obey" implies "ownership" and the ownership of females ended a very long time ago in the U.S., sadly it still continues in other countries. The term, once used in wedding vows is rooted in the hierarchical and patriarchal structure of Judeo-Christian norms. The term began to lose it's power when women obtained their right to vote, to own property, etc.

When women pushed for equal treatment in society (we're still waiting on that one, btw), the word eventually was dropped altogether. It has been my experience, excluding the most fundamental of faith traditions, that individuals must ask for its inclusion.

Rather than focusing on which of the partners is the leader or "wears the pants in the family," the majority of relationships are seeking equality within a partnership. Those relationships that tend to be successful are those that do not function on submission and subservience to a partner or partners, they thrive and succeed through interdependence where each partner recognizes and respects the knowledge, experience, and expertise in areas in which they are weak. They have the right and duty to agree or disagree and collaborate in coming to decisions that affect the entire family. They look to each other's areas of strength and make decisions through mutual respect and collaboration. Not from a "he's the man so what he says goes" position.

For a partners to place themselves under submission to others, as if they are more intelligent, wise, expert, experienced, or filled with all knowledge is reminiscent of checking one's brain at the door. To buy into such an arrangement, in my opinion, is foolish and a recipe for disaster.

Regards,

ACP
 Miss G
Joined: 5/1/2007
Msg: 283
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/16/2008 4:46:15 PM
A man who is not a natural leader should look for an equal partner. A woman who likes the take charge type probably enjoys obeying to some extent. As for cherish, can you really cherish someone who belches in public, tells the waitress she's beautiful, or talks to you while he sits on the throne? Cherish is more difficult. A woman is going to react to the man and either cherish and/or obey if she believes in him. Once the trust is broken,only a fool follows the same path twice.
 mysteriousromeo
Joined: 9/29/2008
Msg: 285
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/11/2009 6:40:55 PM

The problem some people have is that in some faiths only the woman says it.


Well of course only the woman says it. The man is the head of the household; the man doesn't obey the woman.

1Co 11:8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 287
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/15/2009 7:19:12 AM

Well of course only the woman says it. The man is the head of the household; the man doesn't obey the woman.

1Co 11:8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


Well, we can quote scripture to support whatever our personal views are..or we can interpret it however it works best for us...besides, not being fundamental or a literalist, I go with the intent , being as it was written by men, who inspired by God or not, had their own ideas about what was a "truth", and funny how most of it favors men and their dominance? And relegates women to brainless possessions...hmmmm...lol...

Obey implies authority...the ony true authority over me ( besides my boss) is God..men are not superior in intellect, wisdom or anything else by virtue of their gender..and even if they were...a marriage is joint venture, not a master/slave relationship..I'm willing to listen to valid logic to support someone's opinion...but, no way will I blindly obey anyone..male or female..kind of neuters the concept of free will, doesn't it? A very important tenet of God's....and I also am willing to compromise for the good of one over the other...and if I truly believe what they are saying is the best thing for both...fine...but, no one will control or dismiss me..for any reason, religious or otherwise..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 290
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/21/2009 8:49:51 PM

No, you might be thinking of enslavement. No one forces
you to place yourself under a husband's authority involuntarily.
If any of the terms are not to your liking, you can reject the
proposal, and in no case is anyone arguing for blind obedience.
For example, if the husband asks his wife to sign a false tax return,
she has no obligation to obey him.


Ok David..if she has choice...why does obey even need to be an option? Obey is an order...

You can get more flies with honey anyway...my gut reaction to anyone telling me what to do or how to behave is to object on principal...now asking or discussing...different thing.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 293
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To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/23/2009 6:57:37 PM
I'm sorry David...that's BS...I've known men who are quite masculine and alpha..who are neither threatened by a woman with her own mind and opinions, nor need to control anyone..I resent the implication there are only two kinds of men...wimps and controlling freaks...I have no desire to control a man either...equal footing is what I like...masculine does not mean always in charge or leading people around by their nose...and having a mind of my own does not mean I am not feminine either...or a ball buster...

There is a middle ground...that is what I seek...
 compleat_man
Joined: 10/3/2008
Msg: 296
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/24/2009 12:08:49 PM

With all due respect Cabby, I think you were an altar boy MANY years ago.


hope he wasn't one of the ones to lose their 'anal virginity' to an RC priest.. :(
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