Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 136
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?Page 3 of 18    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
I guess my question still is: Why does anyone need to obey anyone? Talk..make a mutual decision..everyone's happy...besides...what decisions have to be made that require obedience anyway?

And this trust thing..all well and good..but, I have trusted every time, and every time it gets abused..not saying I wouldn't trust again...but, I don't think I will ever trust that anyone has my best interests at heart..especially many men...who think they are smarter and better..and so belittle how I might think or feel...because, after all, I'm a woman, and we aren't capable of making rational or good decisions. ( Just repeating what I have repeatedly been told...and what's said on here all the time...)

I trusted my ex husband...until he sold my car out from under me, until he euthanized my cat behind my back, until he let some people abuse me for his own gain...I guess a man would have to show that he could be trusted not to hurt me with HIS decisions..and, again...what has to be decided that needs an authority to decide. Sorry, I think marriages are a democracy, not a dictatorship..and it's too easy for men to abuse it..

(And yes, I hate the thought of being treated like I don't count....)
 dsleeth
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 137
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/20/2008 5:32:22 PM
zangie, did you and your ex husband have any type of sex with each other before marriage? Anything involving lust makes it that you can't see someone for who they truly are. Was he getting you away from your friends and family? Any of these signs may have been there.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 139
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/20/2008 6:07:27 PM

zangie, did you and your ex husband have any type of sex with each other before marriage? Anything involving lust makes it that you can't see someone for who they truly are. Was he getting you away from your friends and family? Any of these signs may have been there.


He didn't believe in sex before marriage...in fact, I think that was part of his motivation for marrying me...unfortunately...He was not getting me away from friends and family. He actually isn't a bad guy..we were friends for 7 years before we got romantic..we are still friends..just not suited to one another as lovers/husband/wife.

He grew up in a highly dysfunctional family..and I believe he thought he was doing the right things..he changed from catholic to a more fundamental christianity ..and it just reinforced his belief that men were superior to women, and he knew best...and never comprehended that what he was doing hurt me...he believed he was right...and my fault was not getting out sooner and saving us both...but, we both did get married believing marriages were forever, and not to take the easy way out.

He was in therapy on his own after the divorce, and has since apologized for most of the really hurtful things he did..he is remarried..and has told me that he learned what not to do from our marriage ( part of me wanted to say...gee, glad I got to suffer so your new wife wouldn't have to..lol)....I forgave him a long time ago...but,

there was a thread earlier about damaged women...if I admit to any kind of damage..it is some real caution about trusting men to keep their word, ( and it isn't just my ex that reinforced this) or not to hurt me for "the greater good"..which means the idea of "obeying" one is very frightening...

and I have yet ( not giving up hope here) to meet one where I'm reasonably sure it's a moot point...plus the fact that I honestly don't think it's necessary..either religiously or practically...my God doesn't require me to be miserable in order to feed a male ego....And I still believe with real love and communication why is it necessary? I'm hard pressed to even think of a situation where obedience is even an issue...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 140
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/20/2008 8:09:00 PM

If any of you attended a church on a regular basis or had studied the bible you would know what the word Obey means.


I kind of object to this assumption...I have both studied the bible ( more than one version even), and have attended church on a regular basis..the bible is subject to interpretation and we all know everyone has their own...respect does not mean sublimation...
 bullielover62
Joined: 12/2/2006
Msg: 142
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/22/2008 6:28:27 AM
Those words came from an archaic religion hell bent on controlling people.

I'd no sooner say those words than choke on the hypocritical means with which they were based!

How could anyone "promise" to do anything until death.... not knowing what life has in
front of you??

I promise nothing. If I'm moving into a legal and binding contract with someone it's
inferred.... Promising something til death is just a recipe for failure. If you love someone
and you're making it legal, you'd hope you meant it for life.... but you can't guarantee it.

Last I checked, there was nothing binding about being married until you're ready to
end things legally..... and then it' s just a matter of $$$$ and it's all kaput.

Legal schmegal..... Promises my ass.
 harborcitydude
Joined: 2/15/2008
Msg: 143
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/22/2008 7:09:00 AM
Main Entry: obey
Pronunciation: \ō-ˈbā, ə-\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): obeyed; obey·ing
Etymology: Middle English obeien, from Anglo-French obeir, from Latin oboedire, from ob- toward + -oedire (akin to audire to hear) — more at ob-, audible
Date: 14th century

Merriam-Webster tells us that obey is a word that derived from a Latin word that means "toward hearing". It may very well be that the definition we use today is a bit different than the definition that was used back in the 1300's.

Just my .02 worth

HCD
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 149
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/22/2008 10:33:32 AM
I have not read the whole thread so if I'm repeating something already said, I apologize.
The traditional marriage vows instruct the man to love honor and CHERISH his bride/wife. So the "love honor and OBEY" instruction was NOTout of line... a man who CHERISHED his wife would not work her to death, endanger her safety or health, hurt her,or demand blind acceptance of decisions that frightened her or made her unhappy.And because the woman KNEW her husband cherished her, she was perfectly fine with obeying him. It wasn't about the man getting all his own way and the woman being subservient or a slave.
The 2 instructions balanced each other. Generally speaking, roles and duties were clearly defined. I'm not saying that this made for perfect marriages! I'm sure there were many couples who WEREN'T happy and harmonious, but divorce was almost unthinkable.
Just a bit of perspective(BTW my marriage vows were modern, essentially it boiled down to cherishing each other and negotiating roles and decisions.)
Cindy O
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 152
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/22/2008 11:16:28 AM
I think people are taking OBEY way, way, out of context here. Original meaning does not mean slave, controlling someone. Nether side should be going to the extremes to what it really means.

Brings up an interesting point on people who claim to be old fashioned. If it is in their own interests to do so that is....
 basher2
Joined: 12/11/2007
Msg: 153
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/22/2008 1:40:42 PM
Here another 2 cents worth...
(all "quotes" are approximations of what I can remember from the NIV translation. Its been quite a while since I've read any of it...)
The "obey" portion of the ceremony does come from the bible, which is the main source of the marriage traditions most prevalent in Western society (Note: "main" is subject to a lot of variability. In some places, it is the only source, in many other places, the traditions from other sources play a major role. I will withhold comment on these other traditions, as I know very little about them). It actually comes from the New Testament, not the Old (the old says that disobedient children should be stoned (as in executed), though). In Second Corinthians, Paul (who never married, it should be noted) commands wives to obey their husbands, as the church obeys Jesus (does that ever actually happen?) He then goes on to say that husbands MUST love their wives as Jesus loves the church, and bought it with his own life. Basically, the husband makes decisions, but every decision must be made based on this self-sacrifice. I think it is similar to what my mom used to do with me and my brothers when it came time to split a piece of cake. She'd say "YOU cut, and you choose." So, at any rate, I've seen marriages which are attempting to follow this. Some are amazing successes, some are miserable failures. The same with marriages which follow a more egaletarian structure.

In the end, what I think will make the difference is whether, in a marriage, you can consistently put the needs of your partner above your own. Set up the power structure however you want, and adjust as needed, but it will all come down to your ability to take the back seat.

Bob Dylan said it pretty clearly (substitute obey for serve, and its still true)
You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody.
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
 c_deacon
Joined: 3/13/2005
Msg: 155
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 12:16:58 PM
You should have seen the families and church cringe when I got married so long ago and insisted on eliminating some of the language of the wedding vows........even my "ex" was not sure about it, but understood my concern.

Coming from a broken home as a child with both mother and father marrying multiple times, the last thing I wanted to do was be like them, or wonder how such sacred vows can be ignored so easily and often. I decided for my personal sanity and that of my relationship with my "ex", since we were doing this for the family, much more than ourselves, that if married, the vows would be consistent with both our belief's.

The "obey" part had to go, just as the "until death do you part", and replaced with, "accept" and "until love do you part". I also did not want my "ex" to have to accept my last name as hers, and she could keep her maiden name if so desired.

Needless to say, those in that church meeting stood there mouth's open, not sure how to react to any of it. The only person that truly understood was my "ex" because we lived together, knew each other well, and had talked at great length about all of it.

Even with all of that, life happens and marriages fail, and I might not ever marry again, but if it did happen, those same thoughts would be there once more.

Just my opinion.......
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 158
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 1:04:05 PM

As far as the "obey" in the vows? Fat chance! LOL


For someone who is old fashioned & believes in courtships and family values, it is kind of contradicts what you are saying.

Like I said before, old fashioned values, only if it benefits themselves. Then throw away the rest.


Coming from a broken home as a child with both mother and father marrying multiple times, the last thing I wanted to do was be like them, or wonder how such sacred vows can be ignored so easily and often. I decided for my personal sanity and that of my relationship with my "ex", since we were doing this for the family, much more than ourselves, that if married, the vows would be consistent with both our belief's.

The "obey" part had to go, just as the "until death do you part", and replaced with, "accept" and "until love do you part". I also did not want my "ex" to have to accept my last name as hers, and she could keep her maiden name if so desired.


Marriage vows are suppose to set a high standard, not to rewrite them to whatever standard is convenient for themselves at the time.

 c_deacon
Joined: 3/13/2005
Msg: 160
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 2:24:33 PM
Values are values and not new, old, or indifferent, and the only thing that I can see that is convenient is your attitude about equality, and the lack of it when it comes to women and marriage......

What should be a high standard is raising your children to be the best they can be with your guidance and example, and if you can not do it right the first time, why do it over and over again?

The integrity of the family is not a function of words but much more of action, and I for one prefer to share that with an equal, not someone that vows to obey and be with with me to death.......no matter whose, why, or when.

Just my opinion.......
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 161
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 3:33:06 PM

A marriage license is NOT an ownership paper. IMO, the word OBEY being put into it, is agreeing to do what you're told


Your right, slavery is against the law & nobody owns anybody else. Wedding vows do not mean ownership.

A controlling person will not care much if the word obey is in the wedding vows or not. That will not stop him or her from trying to control someone.

If people really did what the wedding vows were suppose to mean, everybody would still be married & faithful. A happy marriage.

So apparently not everybody follows them or not always completely.




the only thing that I can see that is convenient is your attitude about equality, and the lack of it when it comes to women and marriage.....


Quite on the contrary. I don't necessarily believe in the outdated, old fashioned thinking that some women think.

I don't believe women should EXPECT the man to pay for dates, most do so out of courtesy. Women are capable of asking someone out if they so desire.

But in claiming to be of old fashioned values, there are always some that get left out. The ones they don't feel they would benefit from.

Make up your mind, aether your old fashioned or your not, whats it going to be?
 Verissa
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 162
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 3:39:24 PM
Those vows were made when women were not people but possessions of the father and then the husband. I think that is pretty much out and won't be in my wedding vows that's for sure.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 163
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 4:09:57 PM

OMG ! Why worry about OBEY when most out here can't figure out what it means to LOVE and HONOR ............ Figure out the first two words, what they mean and HOW TO LIVE THEM, and the last one becomes moot all on it's own.


Exactly! wish I could put my thoughts into words like you do....lol
 dontmakecookies
Joined: 11/1/2006
Msg: 164
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 4:39:11 PM
The obey thing is relatively recent... seems I kind find much on the history of wedding vows online but I do remember texts around Shakespearean times where it isn't used. In fact, I think there's a wedding in one of the Elizabeth movies (most recent one?) where the old vows are used. It's very similar to how you see in Anglican or Catholic churches but there is no obey. There is "I will worship your body with mine" spoken by both parties.

I always thought this was a pretty fabulous wedding... OK, I know it's Star Trek, but still, you've got to love the symbolism... I modified it from the original...

Mother of the groom:
With fire and steel did the gods
forge the man's heart. So
fiercely did it beat, so loud was
the sound, that the gods cried
out, "On this day we have brought
forth the strongest heart in all
the heavens. None can stand
before it without trembling at its
strength." But then the man's
heart weakened, its steady rhythm
faltered and the gods said, "Why
do you weaken so? We have made
you the strongest in all of
creation."
And the heart said...

Groom
"I... am alone."

Mother of the groom:
And the gods knew that they had
erred. So they went back to their
forge and brought forth another
heart...
(bride enters)
But the second heart beat stronger
than the first, and the first was
jealous of its power.
Fortunately, the second heart was
tempered by wisdom.

bride:
"If we join together, no force can
stop us."

(bride and groom pull each other close)

Mother of the Groom:
And when the two hearts began to
beat together, they filled the
heavens with a terrible sound.
For the first time, the gods knew
fear. They tried to flee, but it
was too late. The hearts
destroyed the gods who created
them and turned the heavens to
ashes. To this very day, no one
can oppose the beating of two
hearts...
Groom... does your
heart beat only for this woman?

Groom:
Yes.

Mother of the groom:
And will you swear to join with
her and stand with her against all
who oppose you?

Groom:
I swear.

Mother of the groom:
bride, does
your heart beat only for this man?

bride:
Yes.

Mother of the groom:
And do you swear to join with him
and stand with him against all who
would oppose you?

bride:
I swear.

Mother of the groom:
(to all)
Then let all present here today
know that this man and this
woman... are married.

Simple and more about being two who face the world indivisible and unconquerable than about any particular promise of behaviour in the marriage. All that is negotiated between them and has nothing to do with the ceremony.

It's an interesting way to think about marriage.
 dontmakecookies
Joined: 11/1/2006
Msg: 166
view profile
History
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/23/2008 11:54:52 PM

The origin of Love, Honor and Obey go back to ancient times.


I wasn't arguing that the concept hasn't been around for thousands of years. What I was arguing is that it wasn't regularly in Christian wedding vows as recent as about 400 years ago. It was probably about 200 years before most Christian vows standardized on the Anglican vows from the Book of Common Prayer developed in the 1500s. In fact, those that did not use English vows, like Lutherans, weren't standardized on obey as little as 100 years ago. Standard use of obey in Christian vows is relatively recent.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 169
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 3/24/2008 4:20:57 AM

uncoolman.....you seem to be fixated on my posts and on my profile for some unkown reason. You dont know anything about me, as you have not spoken to me on the phone, you have not talked to me in person, nor in an email. Therefore, I dont see where you decide that you somehow came to be a judge of what I do and dont believe, of what I do and dont feel or of what I do and dont think. Forum stalk me as you wish, but I'm not saying obey in wedding vows for ANYONE. I have my beliefs and you have yours. They're DIFFERENT. Jeezus.......give it a rest!



uncoolman.....you seem to be fixated on my posts and on my profile for some unkown reason.


Not at all, I like to debate on different topics.


Forum stalk me as you wish


I would never do that. I am only discussing the topic with you & other posters within this thread only. If I happen to talk with you on another topic is entirely coincidental.

I've only replied twice to what you said so far, so hardly called stalking.....lol


I have my beliefs and you have yours. They're DIFFERENT.


Of course you opinion is different then mine, if it were always the same what fun would that be?!?
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 172
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 4/3/2008 4:08:39 PM

they did away with the upper body strength requirements that used to be standard for all firefighters nationally.


disclaimer: I'm in no way an expert on this. . . . But I wonder if the standards initially were necessary? Have women firefighters proved to be damaging to the general welfare? I wonder because in the 70's for a while I was dating a college linebacker: big beautiful specimen of a male he was, too. He wanted to join the D.C. police force. But he weighed "too much." Not one ounce of fat on the man, but muscle weighs more than fat. . . . So I had to wonder then at the "standards. . . . "


 Animaniac69
Joined: 5/23/2007
Msg: 175
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 4/3/2008 9:44:28 PM
Then come up with your own vows if the standard doesn't suit you.

I obeyed. She didn't. Now I'm here. Think it only works one way?
 dekomisier
Joined: 2/28/2008
Msg: 179
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 4/4/2008 9:47:57 AM
Whats wrong with obey? it means respect, comply, submit and conform to. If people were to follow that as they should, their would be no divorces and happy marriages, and no POF.
 NorseViking869
Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 181
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 4/4/2008 10:52:39 AM
I aam not a dog and I am sure as hell not marrying one.Obeidience is what you train dos for...people are supposed to be houseroken already.


Many of you asume that wedding vows simply mean to not cheat. Nope. The vows are arcaic. They go back to when women were treated as cattle. I prefere the wiccan vows and handfasting if you ask me. Far more romantic in my opinion.
 Englishman
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 185
To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 4/4/2008 11:23:35 PM
I would have more of a problem with a woman who believed all of the religeous mumbo jumbo long before I was concerned about her disobedience.

As for obedience, it surely depends upon which fommands you make:

"Sit" Well, probably 30% of the time
"Beg" I doubt it
"Stay" Hmm, probably works best with "close your eyes I have a surprise"
"roll over" You have to pick the right moment, but it does enable you to both watch the TV.
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  >