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 subhacker
Joined: 11/30/2006
Msg: 51
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Why do men copy/paste Page 3 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
I don't cut and paste. Sure, it's more efficient, but the pool of good prospects isn't that large.
Getting to the end quicker isn't all that helpful and seems senseless if it reduces the chance of success.
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 52
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Posted: 12/13/2010 10:07:15 AM
At least SOME effort was put forth, do not do it myself. Better than the "Hi" message from some women all the time. LOL
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 53
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Posted: 12/16/2010 5:29:10 AM
Making strangers feel special. Ha! that's classic, especially when said strangers have profiles that are as generic and uninteresting as the messages that are being sent out in mass to them.

I, personally have gone the column A + column B route. I take the time to write a fairly thought out message template, but leave space to add a sentence or 2 where I say something to acknowledge that I have read their profile.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 54
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Posted: 12/16/2010 7:03:09 AM
You cannot have quality without quantity. It is mathematically impossible. A fancy zero is no better than an ordinary zero. Zero is zero.

But shoving aside theory for a second, who wants to have no options? Someone getting emails from dozens of different people of all "qualities" is in a much better position to feel good about his/her final selection than a person who got a single email from a supposed "quality" person. From January through April, I got one single first contact email -- let me tell you, she was a real winner. But according to the philosophies being spouted here, by virtue of lack of quantity, that was automatically "quality" I suppose. Sorry, but that's just dumb.

Which is not to say I espouse a copy-and-paste philosophy -- I've never done that on POF. But I have to tell you, after a few months on here with no real responses to my carefully crafted emails, I stopped putting any significant effort into them. Effort should go into email #2 -- #1 is nothing but a "Hey, I'm interested in you, are you interested in me?" email. I mean, that's just about all the first contact emails I've received in my four years here have consisted of -- they could have been copy-and-paste for all I know, but I didn't give a damn -- either I was attracted to the woman that sent it or I wasn't, and that's really just about all that factored into my decision to pursue.

If "Meet Me" works out as it should, then it would arguably eliminate the awkwardness of that opening email. As I can attest to you from my long and successful experience with Hot Or Not's "Meet Me," it is a lot less problematic to write that first email when you already know somebody is interested in communicating with you (and God knows you aren't going to use a copy-and-paste). Although, I must say, as mrcs84 points out, because the vast majority of young women have very short "generic and uninteresting" profiles, even when you know they're interested through a "Meet Me" or "wink"-type channel, it's often times still a challenge to come up with a good opening email.

Of course, I've had forum regulars argue that I shouldn't be wasting time on women with simplistic profiles -- but ignoring for a second the fact that doing such a thing removes over 90% of my opportunities, I will say that I have sent many a thorough email to women with outstanding profiles... and almost always got the same response as writing to women with sparse profiles. Women with good profiles are as popular as modelesque women (especially when they are one and the same) and your email is just one in dozens they receive that day, a high percentage of which are probably strong emails from guys like me. In the end, it's all about attraction, and no brilliant email or profile is going to change that. And again, looking back on my actual non-online dating history, certainly none of them dated me because of my writing ability, nor did I date any of them because of their writing ability (heck, I'm not sure a couple of my longtime significant others could write!). Yes, POF is powered by emails, but emails are way too over-emphasized in the forums, because if you hang out here, then you almost certainly love reading and writing by definition and you're a different sort from the other 99% of people on this site.

I once did a similar experiment to CMD's friend on another dating website. I posted the exact same profile I had been using for months with essentially no response except this time I changed my height to 6 feet. During that week, I suddenly became bombarded with first contact emails and a good half of the women I wrote to wrote back (vs. my 5% lifetime return ratio on POF and close to 0% on that website) -- I wouldn't go so far as to say it didn't matter what I wrote, though. Regardless of what you look like, if you don't seem like an interesting person, it's going to hurt you SOME. But anyway, I think what that experiment proved to me is that I have ONE single major negative when it comes to dating. It's not one that I can do anything about, but I suppose it's better than having a dozen major negatives to work on, as it sometimes seems. Not that I've found any solace in knowing that during the decade since that experiment...
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 55
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Posted: 12/16/2010 8:35:00 AM

I posted the exact same profile I had been using for months with essentially no response except this time I changed my height to 6 feet. During that week, I suddenly became bombarded with first contact emails


I changed just and only the pictures on my (then rather meager) profile (which was drawing some response) from pics of me doing ordinary things to pics of me in a quality suit. The number of responses immediately jumped 15 to 20 times! No change other than the quality suit. I had to go back an add all the paragraphs after the first to try to weed out a certain element I didn't wish to meet.

I find as a general rule, most of the women I try to make first contact with (from genuine interest on my part) don't respond at all. (Oh, well.) By comparison, virtually all of those women who first contact me are indeed interested in me. Of those whom I try to first contact who don't respond, I suspect they would not respond no matter what I email them, 3,000 well-crafted words directly addressing their specific profile words and thoughts or a quick "Hi" with a couple of generic sentences attached.

One woman I crafted a fine response to, responded to me with some totally inexplicable ranting and insults. I read her response perhaps 20 times, my initial contact perhaps 30 times, and her profile 15 times and my profile half a dozen times without being able to see ANYTHING that might bring about her rant and insults. I blocked her (something I NEVER do) so I would not see her face ever again. A year later, I see her face with a new screen name and living in a different part of town.

Would I have saved some time and effort if I had used a "cut n paste"? Yeah, I would have.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 56
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Posted: 12/16/2010 8:44:18 AM

Paragraphs matter
Punctuation matters
Spelling matters


That's something you may want to rethink, for it eliminates all those otherwise intelligent people who can read a full-length novel in an evening.

Goot spelerz tipiacklee reed sew sloh it takes um a mont ur moore to reed a novel beecuz they move there lips as thay reed, or try two, and lips only reed sew fasted.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 57
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Posted: 12/16/2010 1:04:39 PM
^^^ doc, people who move their lips while reading -- at a rate of about 150 to 200 to MAYBE 250 words per minute -- spell well. Ordinary people read at 600 to 1,000 words a minute, sometimes more. Ordinary people finish a novel they bought late in the afternoon before they go to sleep that night. "Sub-vocalizers" (the term used by educators to indentify people who move their lips while reading) take a month or six weeks or two months to read an ordinary novel.

Sub-vocalizers simply are not capable of reading without reading EACH individual letter, THEN forming those letters into syllables, THEN "sounding out" EACH syllable in their head, THEN translating EACH syllable into words, THEN translating EACH word into a sentence, THEN translating EACH sentence into a thought.

That takes them forevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver to finish a page of print ordinary people read in less than a minute.

Sub-vocalizers like poetry, btw. They read so slowly, they have to like something.

Bragging about reading at less than the speed of speech in a TV commercial is a strange thing. It's sorta like bragging about being able to peel an orange, though some people think the ability to peel an orange is the mark of a higher form of ape with opposable thumbs.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 58
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Posted: 12/17/2010 5:05:59 AM
Well, waywardwynde, I'm already wearing a "quality suit" in half of my pictures, so I tend to doubt that's the issue, but I suppose I could experiment (AGAIN) with a main pic of me in a suit and see if that increases my views, but every single time I change from the current pic to something else, my views fall completely off the face of the earth (which is an impressive accomplishment as they are so few to begin with).

"By comparison, virtually all of those women who first contact me are indeed interested in me."

I would have said that's a given by definition, but after thinking about it further, quite a few of the non-forum women who have initiated contact with me did so just to compliment my profile and were interested in nothing else about me. Actually, that got so bad at one point that I took my entertaining profile down and replaced it with something more normal because I'd just rather hear from women who want to date me and not women who want to be my professional editor or profile critic. Indeed, I had a normal profile throughout the summer while I was too preoccupied with my latest film to really bother with POF other than to log-in once a day to see if I had mail, and lo-and-behold, there never was any. Shortly after changing it back to its current entertaining state a couple months ago, I got an email from a woman telling me what an outstanding writer I was (she never replied to my response, pretty much par for the course). Just yesterday I got one from a woman claiming it was the most entertaining thing she had ever read on this site. I doubt I'll be hearing back from her, either (not sure if I really care in her case).

The ability to write in an entertaining fashion is nothing but an albatross around your neck on this site if you aren't attractive. It just leads to false hope emails on top of false hope emails. Which is the primary reason I say, FOR THE PURPOSES OF DATING, it doesn't really matter what you write on this site (assuming it's not weird, scary or retarded): attraction is what's going to get you somewhere at the end of the day. The written word itself is not sexy; it's the writer behind the written word that makes it sexy in matters of the heart. Contrary to popular belief, this is not 18th century France nor your junior year English literature class.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 59
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Posted: 12/17/2010 1:44:11 PM

I read reasonably well, and fairly quickly; I write reasonably well; I tend not to move my lips when reading, except ...


Do you read a novel front to back in one sitting ... ever read three novels in one day ... or do you take a month or six weeks or two months?

Sub-vocalizers -- who move their lips while reading and tend to spell well -- take forevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver to read a novel. They read so slow they seldom read even three novels a year.


I disagree because to me it indicates that you are not willing to take an extra 30 seconds to run your text through spell check. To me that says you are not as serious about this as I am.


Do you also think a man who washes and waxes his car daily is a more skilled driver ... or a better mechanic ... or makes a better spinach and feta cheese omelette ?


I like to challenge myself to peel an orange, such that the peel comes off in one entire piece, and not those little fragments that get under your fingernails...


That's one of the problems with sub-vocalizers. They often completely miss metaphor.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 60
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Posted: 12/17/2010 6:17:50 PM
^^^ In the business world, there is a phrase to the effect that little people worry about little things, big people worry about big things. In the world of business, that is most assuredly true.

Good spelling is a little thing. Good writing is also a little thing. Having something interesting to say is a big thing. Mitchner, Cussler and Sauders -- and thousands of others -- made themselves wealthy writing pretty wretched writing.

Spelink is four sekrataries and edditers.

BTW, I've seen near illiterate writing that would bring tears to a hardened biker in front of his friends. I've also seen fine, fine writing ("Out Of Africa") which is drier than thousand year old dust.

OnTopic, when a profile reader insists on their particular version of "good writing" they are, in essence, saying that a well-painted race car is driven faster because of it's 17 coats of hand-rubbed lacquer, and it's engine lasts longer, too.

BTW, in amateur auto and motorcycle racing, you can ALWAYS tell the guy about to give up the job due to lack of talent by the (high) quality of the paint job on his ride.

Sub-vocalizers who insist on only accepting the email responses of other sub-vocalizers leave most of the intelligent world aside. Kinda limiting, actually.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 61
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Posted: 12/18/2010 4:18:00 AM

Oh, are we talking about the business world? Silly me! I thought we were speaking about messaging potential dates here on PoF.


It's a big world, and it's all interconnected. Pay attention



People who do not meet your criteria or share your interests are not necessarily "little" people. They are simply people for whom you are not a match.


The quote is not mine. It is the quote of the large world out there. A quick Google of "little people worry about little things" came up with over 14,000,000 (fourteen million) hits.



Good spelling is a little thing. Good writing is also a little thing.


That is your opinion. A truly "big" person doesn't belittle the things that are important to others.


Not a published writer, are you?



OnTopic, when a profile reader insists on their particular version of "good writing" they are, in essence, saying that a well-painted race car is driven faster because of it's 17 coats of hand-rubbed lacquer, and it's engine lasts longer, too.


That is a flawed analogy. Any fool can see that a paint job is unconnected to the engine.


Metaphor slips right on by some people, doesn't it?


An ability to write well may be indicative of a certain level of education


Off the top of your head, how much "education" did Hemmingway, Fitzgerald, Westlake, Faulkner, Melville, Steele, Tan, Cornwall, Cornwell, Block, Terkel have??



Sub-vocalizers who insist on only accepting the email responses of other sub-vocalizers leave most of the intelligent world aside.


Through the technological wonder that is email, I am generally unaware of the pattern of muscle and vocal cord movements of the recipient as he reads it. I can, however, make a prediction as to whether he would be a match for me if he cannot string together a few coherent sentences, and cannot be bothered to run the spell checker.


People can be proud of some mighty small things. Being proud of reading no more than three novels a year is a mighty small thing. Deciding to capriciously dismiss any and everyone who might read three novels in a day can be considered a bit limiting.

Is the idea to meet an appropriate mate, or is the idea to complain that anyone who says "most unique" is too dumb for my consideration?
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 62
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Posted: 12/18/2010 7:16:35 AM
^^^ It is difficult to imagine that someone bragging about being incapable of pondering their way through even three novels in a year's time is in any particular way "discussion and exchange of ideas." It's sorta like bragging about not being able to peg a baseball from short right field to second base on two bounces.

Well, maybe it is. Maybe they really, really, really don't want to meet a new partner?

Isn't that what this thread is all about? People complaining about the lack of crisp freshness in any and every first tentative contact made in their direction? I wonder how they feel about "Hi", or "It's a nice day, isn't it?", "Come here often?" in real life.
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 63
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Posted: 12/18/2010 7:38:18 AM

Isn't that what this thread is all about? People complaining about the lack of crisp freshness in any and every first tentative contact made in their direction? I wonder how they feel about "Hi", or "It's a nice day, isn't it?", "Come here often?" in real life.


I'm sure if he's hot [and compatible] enough, she won't be bothered by how "overused" his opening comment is.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
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Posted: 12/18/2010 3:04:54 PM

I read as fast as circumstances allow. I didn't realize that it was a race,


Indeed. Someone with a learning defect which makes them unable to read except by "sounding out" each syllable, each word, each sentence, reading at a max speed of 150 to maybe 200 words per minute _IS_ "as fast as circumstances allow." They cain't go no fasters. Like a kid born with a club foot, that's it.


I also know a woman who reads a Harlequin romance every two days


She's a slower reader. A Harliquin is only 60,000 words. Ordinary people read at 600 to 1,000 words per MINUTE.


I happen to like reading novels, but there are many educated who people do not.


See? That's the problem. You equal good spelling with education. There is only small correlation there. What is absolutely correlated in GOOD SPELLERS READ BY SOUND, which is misserably slow, barely the rate of speech on a TV commercial.



(www) Spelink is four sekrataries and edditers.


Why do you apparently have such disdain for people who care to speak and write clearly?


I don't. I do have distain for mental flyweights who try to claim near genius status because they read miserably slow and thus spell well.


Whoopee. I'll bet the engineers who designed and built the Light Hadron Collider haven't read three novels this year. So?


See? There ya go agin tryin ta "prove" intelligence cuz sommin reads one letter, one syllable, one word, one sentence at a time, none of it greater than the speed of speech of a TV commercial.

NOW, keep in mind the original comment was that ANYone who discards an email as worthless because of the spelling is leaving most of the intelligent world aside. Which MAY BE the specific intent, i.e. no mate.

Reminds me of the guy in Marine bootcamp who went around BRAGGING the drill instructor called him a spastic.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 65
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Posted: 12/18/2010 3:20:21 PM


Off the top of your head, how much "education" did Hemmingway, Fitzgerald, Westlake, Faulkner, Melville, Steele, Tan, Cornwall, Cornwell, Block, Terkel have??


Off the top of my head, most of those people are dead


Five of the eleven are still very much alive. So ..... HOW many of the dead ones were educated? HOW many of the other five are?

BTW, of the "dead ones", I believe only Westlake went to college, let alone graduated. If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll tell.

Little people sweat the details. Those who sweat the details have a VERY limited selection of potential new mates.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 66
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Posted: 12/18/2010 6:18:57 PM

What I actually did say was that the lack of effort put forth by a person who didn't run a simple spell check was a turn off to me.


Some people are irritated by trivial stuff, inconsequential items about men. The reason might be more than skin deep.


I don't know where you get the idea that good spellers read by sound.


Wanna take a guess? Hint: educators call them "sub-vocalizers".


Good spellers decode and encode words using strategies like applying their knowledge of root words, affixes, prefixes, word origin, and rhyming patterns


Which is miserably slow, compared to just LOOKING at the tops of the first three or four letters (the most important, in English), LOOKING at the length of the word (the most important in English), the placement of the word in the sentence (the front part being more important than the back part, in English), the placement of the sentence in the paragraph (the front being more important than the back, in English).

BTW, good written English is 20% redundant. Bad written English is upwards of 100% redundant. THAT means you'll catch the it if you read it. (sub-vocalizers read soooooooooooo slowly that their minds generally wonder as they read and lose concentration, meaning they OFTEN read the SAME sentence 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 times before they move on the NEXT sentence. Remember that person who takes two full days to read just on 60,000 wordflyweight Romance novel mentioned above?

I'm discussing English. Are you perhaps discusssing a different language?


To suggest that all people who are good spellers are also slow readers is preposterous.


Question?? EVER meet a "good speller" who read more than 3 novels in a year? EVER meet one who did NOT move their lips as they read?


I favour people who communicate well both orally and in writing. I know some people don't care about those things, but I do.


So, what's your point? You REFUSE to sleep with a rich, extremely handsome man of exceptional kindness and thoughfulness BECAUSE HE USES PARTIAL SENTENCES when he writes?

Oh kay. BUT the question IS THIS, is that an effective viewpoint for those who want to find a partner for an endearing, enduring relationship? I suggest it is, in fact, more limiting than useful.

So, sue me.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 67
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Posted: 12/18/2010 7:58:19 PM

False. It is 200-250 words per minute for an average adult.


ONLY *IF* the "average adult" moves their lips while reading, i.e. is a "sub-vocalizer", i.e. is a phonetic reader. Sight readers read at 600 to 1,000 words per minute.

Check it out. But thank you for quoting an e-zine writer ($20 for the entire article) as a definitive source. Area 51 UFO's, and all.


Second, it is false that good spellers are slow readers. I myself read at almost 700 words per minute with an 80% comprehension rate


you're skimming if you read at only a 80% comprehension level. Sight readers read at 600 to 1,000 words per minute with a 100% comprenhension level.

Besides, not only did you NOT claim you can spell well, you offered NO indication that you have ever read a 600-page Robert Ludlum novel the same evening you bought it, nor ANY idication you have read three or more novels in a day. HOW many novels might you guess you read in a month?

Please ... don't make up quotes.

Plain and simple, people complain about misspellings in Internet emails from potential new partners BECAUSE they don't want a new partner. You see, "nobody" is good enough for THEM.

BTW, I see that you state you are not looking for any relationship of any kind and you also state you are "As it happens, I am looking for a sexually liberated and experienced woman that is also innocent and virginal."

How ya doin' on finding that experienced woman who is also virginal? Are you, perhaps, some college sophomore in some land where the natives do not speak English? As I understand it, in Chinese THE most important parts of a sentence are the first and last, with the middle parts mostly forgetable. Is that true, or did the native speakers mislead me?
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
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Posted: 12/18/2010 8:19:53 PM

Did it ever occur to you that the speed at which you read a novel can depend on how good, or bad, the book is?


Yes, that is true. That's why a "sub-vocalizer" can take two days or more to read a 60,000 word Harliquin novel.

Geesh, more people have offered more reasons in this thread as to why _THEY_ do not want a new mate than ever might be imagined. Spelling. Geesh. Length of fingernails is more important than spelling.

An awful lot of people seem to want to never, ever taste the fruits of love ever again in their lives.
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 69
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Posted: 12/18/2010 9:21:50 PM

I know when a man has read my profile by his subject line most often.....it's more than obivous really...

just because -you- find it obvious, it doesn't mean that others don't.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
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Posted: 12/19/2010 7:11:59 AM
I stand by my statement.

1.) People who spell well read miserably slow, at a rate no more than the speech of a TV commercial.

2.) People who dismiss email messages because of the spelling miss 80% of a lot of intelligent people,

3.) That's what they truly want, to miss most of the potential mates in the world for them,

4.) they are usually flyweights themselves in the gray matter churn rate department,

5.) they -- like the guy I saw in Marine Corps bootcamp who bragged the Drill Instructor told him he was a spastic -- are bragging about having a learning disability which makes them unable to read unless they are talking to themselves.

I also stand by my statement that some people search and search and search until they find a long laundry list of why NO ONE IS UP TO THEIR STANDARDS, therefore they will do without a partner.

Have I ever dated a slow reader who was otherwise intelligent? Of course. I have also dated women who don't have a clue what wave theory is all about ... or who couldn't tell spark knock from pre-detonation ... who didn't know a jib from a gybe ... who couldn't fry bacon without burning it ... who never could ride a bicycle no-handed.

So .... what's the goal? A partner .... or NO partner? NO partner is an easy goal to achieve. Just keep adding to the laundry list until no one qualifies.

To those who are proud of their good spelling and not do not consider its base cause a learning disability, keep talking to yourself.

Let's see. I MUST have a woman who is between 5' 4-1/4" and 5' 5-3/8" ... naturally red hair ... light green eyes ... who can't run 100 meters in less than 34.3 seconds ... burns bacon when trying to fry it ... is left-handed ... stutters when she is frightened or sexually excited ... and drives 20 under the limit in the left lane.

And, if I can't have it, I won't take anything??
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
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Posted: 12/19/2010 9:22:18 AM
I'm confused as to how 'others' could find it at all? ..."others" are not a factor in messages.

Others -are- a factor to the sender of the mass messages seeing how others are also getting those mass messages. You may find it obvious that a man has written you a generic message "by the subject line most often," but others might find that same subject line to be just fine.


Sending out mass messages of generic content in no way can progagate a higher number of responses...opposite in fact.

And please elaborate on how you came to this conclusion. Perhaps it is less successful when it comes to -you- specifically, but when it's being sent to you and 100 other women the odds of the sender getting a response most certainly goes up.
I'm sure that you also haven't had to experiment with your pictures and your personal stats to see what kinds of messages women are responding to.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 72
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Posted: 12/19/2010 11:12:18 AM
Has anyone else noticed that waywardwynde is an extremely good speller,


In the forums, I use small words. In fact, in real life I also usually use small words. That's so people remember what I say rather than how I say it.


And, you rather strongly suggest that being able to read "a novel in one sitting", or (*snicker*) reading "three novels a year", is synonymous with intelligence. I'd say it's a wash in the "make silly & irrelevant comparisons" category...


You're fictionalizing quotes so you can "disprove" them. I made no such statement. I DID say people who spell well read so miserably slow that they can't read a novel in an evening, something quite ordinary to the normal part of the world.

I ALSO said that anyone who does a coarse sift on all emails from all potential lifetime mates based on spelling leaves SO many potential mates behind it is almost a given they are purposely undermining their efforts to meet a mate so ungraciously as to insure failure.

I ALSO said the below. Thank you for re-quoting it and agreeing with me.





(www) I do have distain for mental flyweights who try to claim near genius status because they read miserably slow and thus spell well.


 WaywardWynde
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Posted: 12/19/2010 12:21:46 PM
2) I read quite quickly.


"quickly" is defineded as what? A novel in two or three months?

Oh kay.


Anyway, this thread has veered off topic. To address it (i.e. why do men copy/paste): because they can.


Because 97%+ of their heart-felt responses are lost to the ether.

Because 99% of their cut-n-paste response are lost to the ether.

Because 100% of their cut-n-pastes are easier to post than any 5% of of their heart-felt posts.

Actually, the thread was indeed about how to "read" male responses to female profiles, even though it started as a complaint.
 *buzz*
Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 74
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Posted: 12/19/2010 12:46:26 PM
Men tend to move fast and bless them for their innovative ways. But when they slow down then it is worth to keep eye on their pace
 WaywardWynde
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Why do men copy/paste
Posted: 12/19/2010 12:54:47 PM
^^^I am always amazed to see people standing in a downpour who can't notice it's raining. They chant, "You can't know for sure it's raining. Where is your cite? Who says so besides you? It wasn't raining yesterday! How do you know what rain is? My grandmother never got rained on her life. People who went to good school (insert your choice of "good") were taught that only ancient Greeks knew for sure what rain was."

And on and on and on and on and .............

It reminds me of the Frieda character in the "Peanuts" cartoon who KNEW she was unequivically superior to all others because of her "natually curly" hair.

Pay attention particularly when the sky darkens a bit and suddenly, particularly when your clothes start sticking to your arms and the wind picks up.

BTW, I doubt that Frieda, when she grew up, EVER got close enough to a man to feel his hot breath on her, unless she got him drunk first.

I wonder if Frieda talked to herself as she read?
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