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 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 526
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Women making the first move...Page 22 of 27    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27)
When I think of cheating, I often think of my own parents. My dad cheated often on my mother and then when my mother found out she didn't want to end the marriage so agreed to having an open marriage. However, as soon as my mom slept with someone else my father was furious, despite the fact that he was still sleeping around. He refused to forgive my mom and soon found another woman and left my mom for her. To this day my dad still brings this up sometimes and he's still angry about it. IMO what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And an open marriage should be for both people not just one. I personally am not against an open marriage, although I think a couple would have to have a strong relationship to make it work. If most guys cheat then I figure why not just put it out in the open rather than the secrets and lies. I've seen many swingers on pof and I've seen a lot of married men cheating. At least with swinging or open marriages, the women doesn't have to be scorned and has equal opportunity.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 527
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 9:26:55 AM
To say what you just did, I can see how your parents messed you up, and from how you started your adult life. You are buying into what some men want, to not be committed in a relationship. Let those men find women with low self-esteem to try that crap out on. Don't be that woman.

Part of being in a monogamous relationship is having the safety with knowing you're not going to contract AIDS, herpes or genital warts. Your mom settled, and look where it got her. That's a typical scenario, man cheats and thinks it's okay. Woman cheats in response, not okay. You deserve a guy that will be monogamous. By settling, you will end up in another loveless relationship.

There's that saying about all good things come to those that wait. If we wanted to accomplish something that only involved ourselves, it's a done deal, but relationships involve another person. Don't be desperate in your actions, or you will pay later for it.
 siisaa
Joined: 8/6/2017
Msg: 528
Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 10:21:24 AM

At least with swinging or open marriages, the women doesn't have to be scorned and has equal opportunity.


That's the idea the polyamorous community wants to sell others. Equal opportunity does not mean she'll necessarily be satisfied. There's a huge poly community here in the Seattle area and they try to dress it up and make it sound beneficial for all when it's really more for the men's benefit. It's like trying to sell someone a car that has a salvage title.

Many women may pretend to be fine with it and go along with the arrangement out of fear of being single. The only exception I see to this is if opening the marriage/relationship was the woman's idea.


Part of being in a monogamous relationship is having the safety with knowing you're not going to contract AIDS, herpes or genital warts.


Common sense, but many folks (including the poly community) want to act like condoms alone are a free-pass to be promiscuous. I'm sure you and they know this but one can still contract HSV-2, genital warts & syphilis while using a condom. They're more effective at preventing pregnancy, not STIs.
 hemingway234
Joined: 6/6/2015
Msg: 529
Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 10:43:54 AM
^^^good stuff, I agree.


But the older I get the more I wonder if most guys cheat.


- nope. Also, women cheat as much as men........but for different primary reasons...........men usually cheat due to immaturity/lack of integrity..........women mostly cheat for revenge.

The thing is, if the person (man or woman) has integrity and is in love with their SO, they are naturally monogamous.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 530
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 10:45:30 AM

- nope. Also, women cheat as much as men........but for different primary reasons...........men usually cheat due to immaturity/lack of integrity..........women mostly cheat for revenge.

The thing is, if the person (man or woman) has integrity and is in love with their SO, they are naturally monogamous.


Is this true?
Or something you believe?
 hemingway234
Joined: 6/6/2015
Msg: 531
Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 10:47:34 AM
^^^^^^^^it's true.
 oldwxman
Joined: 7/22/2018
Msg: 532
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 11:16:15 AM
*Many women may pretend to be fine with it and go along with the arrangement out of fear of being single. The only exception I see to this is if opening the marriage/relationship was the woman's idea.

I'm not quite getting what you are trying to say here. I'm a bit confused by this because years and years ago, I was involved with swinging. It was my ex wife's idea but I usually had a better time at the swing club than she did. It wasn't like she was afraid to be single because she threatened me with divorce if I didn't go along. I wasn't afraid either but I went along because I was intrigued. She fulfilled every fantasy that she ever had with dozens of men. DP threesomes, bondage, anal, you name it whereas I only had a few girls and only one that I had all the time. Now, some memories of her are coming back... Anyway, my ex didn't get happier but she pushed to go to the club every week. In your opinion, what was up with that?
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 533
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 11:18:20 AM
Of course men cheat more. Could be their relationships were predicated on sex, and not love. I never cheated on anyone. Not even on my cheater husband. I kicked him out immediately, then dated who I wanted to.

Old, sounds like she fell out of love and wanted to experience sex with others. She obviously didn't want to be single and do this for whatever reason, maybe involving safety concerns.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 534
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 11:26:39 AM
I think men and women do cheat for the same reasons, either:

1) Lack of love for their partner
2) Lack of attraction to their partner
3) Lack of sexual satisfaction
4) Feeling like their partner does not love them or want them physically
5) Accidentally falling in love with someone else but still loving their partner
6) A past attraction/love surfaces and the temptation is too much to resist
7) Boredome (a secret affair can be exciting)
8) Revenge

And cheating can be purposeful and with a specific goal in mind:

A) Wanting to leave the relationship but not wanting to until they have another partner lined up (backup plan)
B) Wanting their partner to break up with them (so wanting to be caught)

In addition, I do believe that many men who cheat still love their wives but to them, love and sex are separate.
 siisaa
Joined: 8/6/2017
Msg: 535
Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 11:31:24 AM
Swinging is not the same as poly/non-monogamous relationships. In some regards I respect the swinging community more because they're more open about their intentions. Besides, a lot of poly/non-mono people get offended if you associate them with swingers because, in their eyes, they believe they're forming meaningful bonds with these people outside of their primary relationship. Poly community tries to dress it up (I hate repeating myself) as more 'love' & relationships with multiple people when they're just in it for extra sex. Was your ex-W trying to go on dates with these men who DP'd her and trying to make them her boyfriends under the false promise of "I can both love my husband and boyfriends"?

I'm not talking about swingers.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 536
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 11:43:08 AM
I think men and women do cheat for the same reasons, either:

1) Lack of love for their partner
2) Lack of attraction to their partner
3) Lack of sexual satisfaction
4) Feeling like their partner does not love them or want them physically
5) Accidentally falling in love with someone else but still loving their partner
6) A past attraction/love surfaces and the temptation is too much to resist
7) Boredome (a secret affair can be exciting)
8) Revenge

And cheating can be purposeful and with a specific goal in mind:

A) Wanting to leave the relationship but not wanting to until they have another partner lined up (backup plan)
B) Wanting their partner to break up with them (so wanting to be caught)

In addition, I do believe that many men who cheat still love their wives but to them, love and sex are separate.
 oldwxman
Joined: 7/22/2018
Msg: 537
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 11:52:43 AM
*Old, sounds like she fell out of love and wanted to experience sex with others. She obviously didn't want to be single and do this for whatever reason, maybe involving safety concerns.

This rings true. She was out of love for several years and she was a virgin when we married. Fed up and wanted to make up for lost time? She didn't seem to get much out of it though.

I didn't consider the didn't want to be single part. She threatened divorce to get me to swing. What I didn't say is that she threatened divorce almost daily. If she wanted a divorce so badly then why did I have to finally push the button? Empty threats all along?
 oldwxman
Joined: 7/22/2018
Msg: 538
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 12:09:44 PM
*Was your ex-W trying to go on dates with these men who DP'd her and trying to make them her boyfriends under the false promise of "I can both love my husband and boyfriends"?

I can't honestly say. I didn't care what she did as long as she kept away from me. For my own part, I truly cared for my swing club favorite. She was my friend's wife so I guess I was much like her husband who she sincerely loved. When I filed for divorce, that ended the swing club but my friend sent his wife over to my apartment a few times to "take care" of me. Now. THAT is a friend in deed.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 539
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 12:42:29 PM
July, you left out my husband and many other men. They're serial cheaters that never had the intention to stay monogamous. They don't need a specific reason.

Old, she may not have been strong enough to follow thru, or maybe they were empty threats if there were reasons that she wanted to stay together. That threat may be the only way she thought she could manipulate you. It's very sad that marriages disintegrate so drastically from how they began. People are divorcing when they should be making retirement plans together.

A guy I'm chatting with (not for dating) is saying his wife doesn't seem to care for him anymore. Of course there is a lifetime of things that probably led up to this, but when I asked him what her reasoning is, he says he doesn't know. He "tried" to inquire is what he said. If this was a new burgeoning relationship, he would have pursued her, tired to woo her, so there's a lack of motivation on his part (not that he's totally responsible), to make it work. For women, I think when we see non-caring, it fuels us with not wanting to be with our s/o anymore.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 540
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 1:16:25 PM

How many people here are divorced/separated with kids?

Not me. Nor NY. But we worked things out on that front...

How many of you had an amicable divorce with good co-parenting? I hear of that with some people and it seems like a fantasy to me.

I see it about as often as the two who Cannot get along at all (like your situation). Not a high %, but it's there. The highest % that I see is not a good divorce, but after a handful of years, they end up amicable and deal with it fine.

But I've heard so many other situations in which it is the man or the woman who is crazy psycho and refuses to negotiate anything. The reality is that kids get screwed big time in this.

True. It's called Pride, which is labeled a "sin" for a reason -- even though one's parents or buddies will perpetuate you have it and even then some, when you're possibly getting the shorter end of the stick VS someone else. It's good to set pride aside -- and work to convince the other person to lower their arms at you, too. It's not an overnight process. But one's angst toward them makes it hard.

That is the goal of the BETA male. The true Alphas don't have a truly mature attitude towards women. Mainly because men have sought out my attention months after we meeting with NO sexual expectation. But the Beta male often loses interest when he realizes no sex is going to happen after the 3rd date.

So true Alphas don't have a mature attitude toward women... and Betas lose interest when he realize no sex is going to happen after the 3rd date. I don't agree. But if that were the case, you'd be cheerleading for Beta male then.

Here's how it really is: The Alpha or Beta may or may not have a mature attitude toward women. The Alpha is the leader, the one to make first moves, have more nerve, not be intimidated in the dating whirlwind, not care about rejection much among hotties, etc. The Beta is the follower, intimidated by making first moves all the time, doesn't have much nerve, and is sh!tting his pants in fear of rejection when the girl's Real Cute if/when he does make a move.

A guy should lose interest is if it's just handshakes & lemonade still, as the 3rd date is winding down. Sorry. You'll find more Betas sticking it out than Alphas. The Alphas, whether it be common sense or just too high-testosterone, are far more apt to Walk after date #2 or #3 if it seems that the sexual intimacy level is the same as it is with Aunt Martha. Which is a good thing to do, to walk after (full) date #3 if it seems that way.

I just wonder about guys in general. I think there's just two types of guys: those that cheat and those that don't and I've known both kinds.

It's not as simple as that. Most people have cheated. It's the how/why that determines the good guys from the bad guys (and good gals vs the bad gals).

When I think of cheating, I often think of my own parents.

That's a good thing to do. Ruins the "mood" with another guy, to prevent you from cheating. "Dad in his underpants, mom in her nightgown..." It'd certainly keep me from cheating on a gal I wasn't even dating yet! :)

My dad cheated often on my mother and then when my mother found out she didn't want to end the marriage so agreed to having an open marriage. However, as soon as my mom slept with someone else my father was furious, despite the fact that he was still sleeping around.

Yeah, you can't jump right into that. Thing is, for both men & women (people), we're naturally One-Sided when it comes to jealousy. In a rocky relationship, you can be crossing the line against your S.O., but then be WTF-mad that they do the same thing. It's not copyrighted as a "guy thing". :)

I personally am not against an open marriage, although I think a couple would have to have a strong relationship to make it work.

In the open relationships I've seen work -- basically, it was more or less the same as a couple getting a divorce very amicably, and were still friends, and even met the others who date, etc... but still, obviously, know themselves sexually. So basically, in a nutshell, they're FWB settled in -- and it appeals to them because they Mutually are on the same level that way VS trying to be something that has proven Cannot work. But since they have kids and all, they don't separate and get comfortable doing that. Have only seen a few instances, but I could see how, over time, it could make sense & fit with the right personalities.

Of course men cheat more.

I only believe this is true due to more men are in Independent situations where they viably COULD cheat VS women. There's a # of couples where the gal is tied down with the kids, while the guy is able to go out while she can't nor wants to. Doesn't mean said types of gals don't cheat. Especially when he's out and they're not in love at all anymore and their relationship sucks. Just saying it's much more difficult for something to spark with another guy when she's at the home base all the time taking care of the kids VS being out and having a social scene. That said, it's harder for guys to get action than women -- so the gap I don't think is all that wide.

If you eliminate couples who have young kids -- I would say it's pretty even-steven on the cheating.
 Clytemnestra
Joined: 6/6/2018
Msg: 541
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 1:26:51 PM
msg#561

Great new pic norwegianguy456!
Who knew you were so handsome?
(Smile)
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 542
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 1:28:06 PM

^^^^^^^^it's true.


Unicorns are real and I'm a princess.
Also true.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 543
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 2:01:29 PM
Wow, that is a great pic Norweiganguy. I think I have a crush on you now.

Newyorker, I don't think I missed the reason your exhusband cheated. I think with the serial cheaters it comes down to lack of sexual satisfaction but in no way do I think the woman is to blame. Some men just aren't satisfied with monogamy, no matter what a woman is able/willing to do sexually or how much he loves her as a person. Some men (and less often women) always have the desire to want to see what else is out there. Some psychologists have even suggested that this is a sign of depression because it prevents a person from real happiness. So I guess we could put that because it is different than only lack of sexual satisfaction. And I thought of two more. One is self-sabatoge. Some people cheat because they feel they don't deserve the person or they want to self-harm or are used to things not turning out so they sabatoge the relationship as a defense mechanism. And the second thing is substance abuse issues which removes inhibitions and causes someone to do something they would not have done sober. So my edited list is:


1) Lack of love for their partner
2) Lack of attraction to their partner
3) Lack of sexual satisfaction
4) Lack of satisfaction with monogamy
5) Feeling like their partner does not love them or want them physically
6) Accidentally falling in love with someone else but still loving their partner
7) A past attraction/love surfaces and the temptation is too much to resist
8) Boredome (a secret affair can be exciting)
9) Revenge
10) Self-Sabatage
11) Lack of inhibitions due to being under the influence of drugs/alcohal
12) Mental illness
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 544
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 2:02:12 PM
WTHolyF! Stop the presses! A new good clear pic of NG! Looking good mister!

I don't doubt that numbers for women cheating are lower due to decades of women being homemakers. I still think that women cheat less due to having more control over their libido, and being more devoted to their s/o.

July, My ex-h's father had the same pattern of cheating, so there could also be learned behavior. My ex did say something I thought could be telling. His long-time H.S. gf left him for someone else, and that seemed to have a big impact on him, even though she didn't cheat, he didn't seem to get over that. I wondered if he developed a hate for women from it. He was odd, as I saw he didn't just enjoy cheating exclusively for sex, he enjoyed being malicious about it.
 hemingway234
Joined: 6/6/2015
Msg: 545
Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 2:40:14 PM
There are really only a few main reasons people cheat......

1) lack of love.......of which there could be 100's of underling reasons somebody fell out of love......or never was in love to begin with

2) lack of integrity and/or immaturity

3) revenge

So, most of your list just falls under "fell out of love".

1) Lack of love for their partner = lack of love (duh!)
2) Lack of attraction to their partner = lack of love
3) Lack of sexual satisfaction = lack of love
4) Lack of satisfaction with monogamy = lack of love
5) Feeling like their partner does not love them or want them physically = lack of love
6) Accidentally falling in love with someone else but still loving their partner = lack of love
7) A past attraction/love surfaces and the temptation is too much to resist = lack of love
8) Boredome (a secret affair can be exciting) = lack of love
9) Revenge = correct
10) Self-Sabatage = hmmm, sounds like a mental issue
11) Lack of inhibitions due to being under the influence of drugs/alcohal = ok, yeah, under the influence could be a problem........ but who's fault was it he got into that state to begin with? - I think we could call it immaturity/not being responsible.
12) Mental illness - Mental issues can be a factor, but I think those usually show up from day one, and in that case, the person who picked the cheating partner choose poorly.

You are definitely on the right track, very smart!
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 546
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 3:06:51 PM

Most people have cheated

You really think that??
I would say I know far more people that haven't cheated than have....myself included.

and I will add to July's list....
Selfishness.....some people only care about themselves...
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 547
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 3:51:38 PM

There are really only a few main reasons people cheat......

1) lack of love.......of which there could be 100's of underling reasons somebody fell out of love......or never was in love to begin with

True


2) lack of integrity and/or immaturity

Immaturity? I don't buy that. There's 16-year-olds that are faithful and 75-year-olds that cheat. Immaturity has nothing to do with it. And what does integrity have to do with immaturity? Integrity has more to do with the first reason which is lack of love.

2) Lack of attraction to their partner = lack of love

Not necessarily. Love is not the same as sex. It is still possible for many people to have sex with someone else while still deeply loving their partner. You could try saying though that if you cheat on someone you don't really love someone. How can you hurt someone that you love? The truth is complicated though. Many people cheat though to satisfy a physical need while having no desire for their spouse to find out because they love them and don't want to hurt them.

3) Lack of sexual satisfaction = lack of love

Again, love and sex are not the same thing. What if you love someone but they cannot satisfy you sexually (ie. small pecker, bad at sex) or they are not willing or comfortable to try certain types of sex that you crave (ie. bondage, anal, etc.)? Some people seek other people to fill those needs but still deeply love their partners. I'm not excusing it but its still a reason for many cheaters.

6) Accidentally falling in love with someone else but still loving their partner = lack of love

Its a little different than just simple lack of love. Sometimes a person can be in a happy marriage but they start finding themselves falling in love with someone else they've been spending a lot of time with.

) Lack of satisfaction with monogamy = lack of love

Again, the answer is no. It is possible to love more than one person at once. Also, this has been suggested to be a symptom of depression because the desire to always explore what else is out there is a way to deny yourself happiness.

5) Feeling like their partner does not love them or want them physically = lack of love

No. Often a spouse is neglected by someone who loves them very much. A common occurrence is a man working long hours to provide for his family but his wife feeling neglected and unloved despite the fact that the guy does deeply love her.

7) A past attraction/love surfaces and the temptation is too much to resist = lack of love
Ever get broken up with by someone you love, find new love then the first love comes back into your life? As I said above it is possible to fall in love with more than one person at the same time.



8) Boredome (a secret affair can be exciting) = lack of love

Not necessarily. Sometimes relationships hit periods of boredome and one person strays but again, the two people might love each other.

I can see how you'd like to lump a lot of those reasons into "lack of love" but the truth is, for some people its more complicated.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 548
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 4:04:49 PM
I should add, individual morals plays into it. We do not all have the name morals. Some people can cross a line easily and others absolutely not. And our own parents play into it. One study had 44% of people who cheated had parents that they knew had cheated.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 549
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Posted: 8/30/2018 4:31:13 PM
I do believe that cheating can be a learned behavior. Part of that is the parent making it seem acceptable. My MIL did divorce her husband, but I know her husband had a child with the woman first, so his mother didn't set a good example that it was bad to cheat until he completely humiliated her in her small community. My ex thought he was going to stay with me after I found out, with denying it, maybe thinking I'll just go with his excuses, as a way to save face and keep him around.
 purplerider1200
Joined: 9/10/2011
Msg: 550
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Women making the first move...
Posted: 8/30/2018 5:09:32 PM
I suspect that my ex could have asked for an open relationship. She was thinking in those terms, because the subject was approached once. That would have been a very lopsided situation, because she would have been doing all the dating, and I would have been sitting at home. I'd have given that a month, tops. Then the fur would have flown, with me tossing her out on her ear.

I never considered cheating, on anyone. My core beliefs just wouldn't allow it. And I was privy to see how cheating ruins relationships in short order. If you're that cold, that you can run around on your mate in a relationship, then I won't deal with you.
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