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 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 26
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Most likely conspiracy theoryPage 2 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
Have you seen this film?

I have, after viewing the thread discussing the religion part of this film, but this film is much more than that.
Check out the web site: to view it online.

I loved Jimi Hendrix quote at the end
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace".

I have to say that the movie was propagandish in delivery ..... quite contradictory, given what it was trying to portray. I did not enjoy the delivery of the message at all!
... appealing to the "ignorance of people" .... when it was trying to portray how the conspiracy by the people in power were viewing and treating the "ignorant" people.

I find it sad that it takes films like this to move people into becoming more aware of what is happening around us, including the role of religion in the conspiracy theories.
That is what this film is all about ....... a conspiracy theory.

There are many other conspiracy theories around that bring in more angles than what is portrayed in this film.

I find more astute and informative writings by people such as Gwynne Dyer deliver the message in less of a hollywoodish propogandish manner, and treat people as if they have some brain power.
Have a look at some of what he writes.
He portrays what is behind all the wars ..... sustaining the economic wealth and power of United States, etc.

I have to agree with Emotional Heat (msg 113 on the thread about this film in the Religion Category)

The point of the the film, I believe, was show how religion developed and why and how it was used by governments to control the population. This is the dominating theme of the entire movie, who has the power and what they will do to control the people, including supporting, even beginning new religions.

In order to prove that this is how religion thrived, the authors must disprove the various religions to show the control factor by those who had or wanted power over the population.

The movie began this way because it is the OLDEST controlling methodology. It then moves on through time to show other ways that powers control. Near the end or at the end it discusses the Federal Reserve system, yet another of those ways to control a population.

So you see, your discussion is about something that the movie has already outlined, researched, and validated for the purpose of setting the stage for the continuance of the movie.

I also looked for some reviews of this movie.

The best one by Jay Kinney is on

Another one is on
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 27
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/9/2007 10:43:58 PM
As many religious books encourage civil disobedience if necessary, it is doubtful that the government would invent religion to control the masses.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 28
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/10/2007 12:27:41 AM
I am no expert on all religions.
I didn't know that many religious books encourage civil disobedience if necessary.
Which ones for example?

The consipiracy theory outlined in the film is certainly plausible ... although I believe it would be too difficult to orchestrate such a large plan over so many years..... it is difficult as it is to orchestrate a small group of people for any event or function.
It would certainly take a genius to say the least.

I do believe that the US certainly manipulates and orchestrates events to encourage war ..... war sustains it's economy .... so many companies and corporations thrive on supplying the military.

For example prior to the most recent involvement in the middle east by the US, when military spending was reduced, many companies went out of business as a result.
During this time period, I worked under contract managing a project creating a new transit system (dispatch control) for Miami Transit. Harris Corporation was the managing corporation of a larger project, we were sub-contracted to work on the dispatch control portion. Harris Corporation used to work in the military industry but had to diversify when the military spending was reduced.

I don't know for a fact, but I am guessing they are busy with military projects again!

The film Zeitgeist certainly showed a dismal view of the world in the past, present, and future .... it certainly reminded me of the "Big Brother" idea!
... a less propogandish approach would have made more of an impact on me, that is for sure.

It certainly is a good idea to not believe all that the media and governmnet tells us .... but we will never know all the details .... and without all the details, it is difficult to assess what is really happening. This is what is so frustrating .....

... and we have free speech ........... to a certain degree ........
I do believe that if anyone is considered dangerous in revealing what the powers are really doing .............. they will be silenced!

The best we can do, I gues, is to not be so gullible with what the media and government bombards us with.

.... and peaceful interaction with all people should be our goal! ... no matter what religion we believe in.

... but, we certainly do not need these propogandish films confusing the masses even more ...... this is an example of what power the media has .... for some of the masses who will follow such propoganda.
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 29
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/10/2007 6:40:01 AM
Truthlly, I do not know if all religions encourage civil disobedience if necessary. The Bible does, and it is usually the target of such films as Zeitgeist. If a government wanted to push a religion on the populace it would push worship of the state like the Romans did.
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 30
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/10/2007 7:34:41 AM
Most likely to be true???

Bush family being Nazi bankers.
Bush family being complicit in murdering JFK.
Roman Catholic Church in setting back human development 1500 years and murdering anyone who showed the slightest talent in mediumship.
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 31
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/10/2007 8:18:48 AM

Bush family being Nazi bankers.

This one's not a conspiracy theory, depending on your definition of the word "bankers", it's a historical fact.

On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City. President Franklin Roosevelt's Alien Property Custodian, Leo T. Crowley, signed Vesting Order Number 248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The order, published in obscure government record books and kept out of the news, cited only the Union Banking Corporation (UBC) connections with Von Thyssen. Fox News has reported that recently declassified material "The 4,000 Union Banking shares owned by the Dutch bank were registered in the names of the seven U.S. directors, according a document signed by Homer Jones, chief of the division of investigation and research of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, a World War II-era agency that no longer exists

E. Roland Harriman--3991 shares (managed and under voting control of Prescott Bush)

# Cornelis Lievense--4 shares (He was the New York banker of the German Nazi Party)
# Harold D. Pennington--1 share (Employed by Prescott Bush at Brown Brothers Harriman)

# Ray Morris--1 share (a business partner of the Bush and Harriman families)

# Prescott S. Bush--1 share (director of UBC, which was co-founded and sponsored by his father-in-law George Walker; senior managing partner for E. Roland Harriman and Averell Harriman)

# H.J. Kouwenhoven--1 share (organized UBC for Von Thyssen, managed UBC in Nazi occupied Netherlands)

# Johann G. Groeninger--1 share (German Industrial Executive, a not unimportant member of the Nazi party)


The Harriman business interests seized under the act in October and November 1942 included:

* Union Banking Corporation (UBC) (for Thyssen and Brown Brothers Harriman). The President of UBC at that time was George Herbert Walker, Prescott Bush's father-in-law. He is the grandfather and great-grandfather of the former and current Presidents Bush.
* Holland-American Trading Corporation (with Harriman)
* the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation (with Harriman)
* Silesian-American Corporation (this company was partially owned by a German entity; during the war the Germans tried to take full control of Silesian-American. In response to that, the American government seized German owned minority shares in the company, leaving the U.S. partners to carry on the business.)

The assets were held by the government for the duration of the war, then returned afterward. UBC was dissolved in 1951. Prescott Bush was on the board of directors of UBC and held one share in the company. For it, he was reimbursed $1,500,000. These assets were later used to launch Bush family investments in the Texas energy industry.

Toby Rogers has claimed that Bush's connections to Silesian businesses (with Thyssen and Flick) make him complicit with the mining operations in Poland which used slave labor out of Auschwitz, where the Auschwitz concentration camp was later constructed.

The New York Herald-Tribune referred to the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, as "Hitler's Angel" and mentioned Bush as an employee of the investment banking firm Thyssen used in the USA. The underlying importance is Hitler's known ideology; intelligent business partners like Bush and Thyssen and Harriman clearly knew who they were doing business with and were willing to do so. Some records in the National Archives, including the Harriman papers, document the continued relationship of Brown Brothers Harriman with Thyssen and some of his German investments up until his 1951 death.[4] Investigator John Loftus has said, "As a former federal prosecutor, I would make a case for Prescott Bush, his father-in-law (George Walker) and Averell Harriman [to be prosecuted] for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They remained on the boards of these companies knowing that they were of financial benefit to the nation of Germany." Two former slave laborers from Poland have filed suit in London against the government of the United States and the heirs of Prescott Bush in the amount of $40 billion. A class-action lawsuit filed in the U.S. in 2001 was dismissed based on the principle of state sovereignty.[5]

On July 23, 2007, the BBC Radio 4 series Document reported on the Business Plot and the archives from the McCormack-Dickstein Committee hearings. The program also mentioned Prescott Bush's directorship of the Hamburg-America Line, a company that the committee investigated for Nazi propaganda activities.

Not too many people have heard of the "Business Plot" .

The Business Plot, The Plot Against FDR, or The White House Putsch, was an uncovered conspiracy involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933.

General Butler claimed that the American Liberty League was the primary means of funding the plot. The main backers were the Du Pont family, as well as leaders of U.S. Steel, General Motors, Standard Oil, Chase National Bank, and Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company. A BBC documentary claims Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to the 41st and 43rd US Presidents respectively, was also connected.

The first set of files, the Harriman papers in the Library of Congress, show that Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder of a number of companies involved with Thyssen.

The second set of papers, which are in the National Archives, are contained in vesting order number 248 which records the seizure of the company assets. What these files show is that on October 20 1942 the alien property custodian seized the assets of the UBC, of which Prescott Bush was a director. Having gone through the books of the bank, further seizures were made against two affiliates, the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation. By November, the Silesian-American Company, another of Prescott Bush's ventures, had also been seized.

The third set of documents, also at the National Archives, are contained in the files on IG Farben, who was prosecuted for war crimes.

A report issued by the Office of Alien Property Custodian in 1942 stated of the companies that "since 1939, these (steel and mining) properties have been in possession of and have been operated by the German government and have undoubtedly been of considerable assistance to that country's war effort".,12271,1312540,00.html

So yes, "banker" is a somewhat appropriate term. A far better one would be an amoral businessman who saw no problems financially aiding Adolph Hitler's rise to power, even after anyone could no longer doubt the immorality of that act.
Joined: 2/6/2006
Msg: 32
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/10/2007 9:08:36 AM
Our country is 'out to get us'.
Corporations are evil.
Religion is trying to 'take over'.
Along with most of the other 'hysterical' thinking that seems to be the hallmark of what has come to be known as Liberal in this country. USA.

Yeah... I'd say these conspiracy stories...(I won't give them the dignity of therories) are probably the most correct.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 33
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/10/2007 6:54:44 PM
btw RDtoo,
I would be intersted to know as well if the elderly person ever did share the film footage showing proof of a sniper on the grassy knoll in the JFK assassination.
.... has anyhone heard anything more about that?
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 34
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/11/2007 2:36:54 PM
Here is a new conspiracy theory for ya........

When George gets assasinated next year and your Government, or should i say****rises to office, he suspends elections and there you have a brand new dictator, If anything happens to george, you and your country are royally screwed !
They already have all the powers in place should anything happen.
I wonder if it will ??????
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 35
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/12/2007 6:44:16 AM
Stuns me just how many people are uninformed too dude
Joined: 7/5/2005
Msg: 36
are you chipped??
Posted: 8/12/2007 3:11:05 PM
SHENZHEN, China, Aug. 9 — At least 20,000 police surveillance cameras are being installed along streets here in southern China and will soon be guided by sophisticated computer software from an American-financed company to recognize automatically the faces of police suspects and detect unusual activity.

A Chinese Tycoon, Inspired to Create Police Technology (August 12, 2007) Starting this month in a port neighborhood and then spreading across Shenzhen, a city of 12.4 million people, residency cards fitted with powerful computer chips programmed by the same company will be issued to most citizens.

Data on the chip will include not just the citizen’s name and address but also work history, educational background, religion, ethnicity, police record, medical insurance status and landlord’s phone number. Even personal reproductive history will be included, for enforcement of China’s controversial “one child” policy. Plans are being studied to add credit histories, subway travel payments and small purchases charged to the card.

We all are just another 911 away from that all happening here ........ (it already is slowly happening)
The id card will lead to the implanted chip. I read recently a report on how hard it would just be to physically chip everyone..... Then I started thinking what if they already have?????????? How you ask?? The chips that are shown on the net and the TV are at least 20 years old. They now use nano technology which is so small you could have been chipped when you had your last vaccination and not even know it................All they have to do is turn it on, if it is not already on????.......... If you don't tow the party line they simply turn you off and you become a non person................welcome to the future
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 37
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Posted: 8/18/2007 10:48:38 AM
Even Connelly maintained until his dying day that he heard the shot that hit Kennedy ( the first of two official hits on him, as per the Warren Commission) . He also was well versed enough with firearms to know that you DON'T hear the shot that hits you, because the bullets traveling faster than the sound wave is.

In addition, Barr McClellan, father of former White House press secretary Scott McClellan and a partner in the Austin law firm that represented Johnson, wrote in his 2003 book that LBJ was a key player in the organization of the assassination and its cover-up. McClellan's revelations were the subject of a subsequent History Channel documentary called The Guilty Men.

Below you can watch the History Channel documentary that was banned for fingering LBJ as the principle conspirator in the plot to kill Kennedy as well as numerous other political assassinations. The History Channel caved and were forced to apologize after Johnson's widow, Lady Bird Johnson, Warren Commission member and former President Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter immediately complained and threatened legal action.

The testimony of Brown, McClellan, and others remains and has not changed over the course of time. Hunt's revelations only add weight to the overwhelming case for a coup d'etat.

Hunt, McClellan, and Johnson's mistress all implicate him in the crime. He had the means, methods, and motives to accomplish it.

Personally, I agree with the fact that anyone watching the Zapruder film is going to have some serious problems with the Warren Commission. Seeing that incredible force driving Kennedy backwards, in a direction consistent with a Grassy Knoll shooter, makes for some interesting thinking.

When I first saw it on TV, in 1973, it made me realize that we were all lied to.

When I first studied the various things brought out by the early researchers, things became pretty clear.

Seeing an undamaged "magic bullet" , and a list of wounds in caused on two people , was more evidence things were being covered up.

There's a hole in JFK's jacket, on his right shoulder, perhaps a few inches down. There's also a matching hole in his back ( called by some a "blood spot") , in the same spot. It's my opinion that the "magic bullet" most probably is the one that caused this wound.

* The holes in JFK's shirt and coat place the wound five to six inches below the collar line. The claim that his coat and shirt were hunched up on his back when the bullet struck in such a way as to make the proposed higher back wound line up with the clothing holes is not only far-fetched, but, in my opinion, is refuted by the photographic evidence, as even lone-gunman theorist Jim Moore concedes. This bunched-clothing theory will be dealt with at greater length further on in this article.

* Dr. Boswell's autopsy face sheet diagram shows the wound five to six inches below the neck. That face sheet, by the way, was marked "verified."

* The President's death certificate places the wound at the third thoracic vertebra, which corresponds to the holes in the coat and shirt. This document was also marked "verified."

* Dr. John Ebersole, who got a look at the back wound during the autopsy, said the wound was near the fourth thoracic vertebra (63:721). This is even slightly lower than where the death certificate places the wound.

* Secret Service agent Clint Hill, who was called to the morgue for the specific purpose of viewing Kennedy's wounds, said the entrance point was "about six inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column" (18:77-78). Hill's placement of the wound corresponds closely to the location of the holes in the President's shirt and coat.

* The FBI's 9 December 1963 report on the autopsy, which was based on the report of two FBI agents who attended the autopsy (James Sibert and Francis O'Neill), located the wound BELOW the shoulder (i.e., below the top of the shoulder blade) (18:83, 149-168).

* Three Navy medical technicians who assisted with the autopsy, James Jenkins, Paul O'Connor, and Edward Reed, have stated that the wound was well below the neck. Jenkins and O'Connor have also reported that it was probed repeatedly and that the autopsy doctors determined that it had no point of exit (10:260, 262, 302-303; 63:720).

* Floyd Riebe, one of the photographers who took pictures at the autopsy, recalls that the back wound was probed and that it was well below the neck (10:162-163, 302).

* Former Bethesda lab assistant Jan Gail Rudnicki, who was present for much of the autopsy, says the wound was "several inches down on the back" (10:206).

* Former Parkland nurse Diana Bowron, who washed the President's body before it was placed in the casket, has indicated that the back wound was two to three inches BELOW the hole shown in the alleged autopsy photo of JFK's back, and this hole, by the HSCA's own admission, is about two inches lower than where the WC placed the wound. In other words, Nurse Bowron located the wound five to six inches below the neck, and at the same time challenged the authenticity of the alleged autopsy picture of the President's back. We will return to her account in a moment. (Some WC defenders argue that Bowron told the WC she didn't see any wound other than the large head wound. But if one reads her testimony carefully, it is clear she was speaking of the condition of Kennedy's body when she first saw it in the limousine. What she said in effect was that she didn't notice any wounds other than the head wound when she first saw his body lying in the limousine. See 6 H 136.)

* In the transcript of the 27 January 1964 executive session of the Warren Commission, we read that chief counsel J. Lee Rankin said the bullet entered Kennedy's back BELOW the shoulder blade (63:632). Rankin even referred to a picture which he said showed that "the bullet entered below the shoulder blade" (68:78-79).

* Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, who got a very good look at the President's body, said the wound was "in the shoulder."

* Three recently released HSCA wound diagrams place the wound well below the neck, and in fact in almost the exact same spot shown on the autopsy face sheet. The diagrams were drawn for Select Committee investigators by Kellerman, Sibert, and O'Neill, each of whom got a very good, prolonged look at the body. This shows that when Kellerman said the wound was "in the shoulder," he meant it was visibly below the top of the right shoulder blade. Each agent placed the wound well below the neck, and visibly below the throat wound.

If that wound is indeed there.....the Warren Commission is lying.

It's the one card that collapses the house of cards if it's pulled.

There is only one suspect that had the ability to control the investigation, directly.

There are a few groups of suspects that benefited from JFK's death, and it would seem that these people worked in association with Johnson with a common purpose.

In fact, one of the best "cover-ups" possible is having investigators that (should they somehow discover "the truth") realizing in horror that the new President was in fact the main suspect - almost impossible to bring to light, in that much simpler time of 1963.

Such a fact, at that time, would have created HUGE political and social problems for America.

I think these latest puzzle pieces about Johnson falling into place finally unlock the mystery of JFK's murder, and go along way to explain why we were lied to on multiple levels.
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 38
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/18/2007 12:54:55 PM
With LBJ, there is this almost perfect combination of factors all coming into play at exactly the same moment in history.

- LBJ is only months away from possibly losing his job as VP. He's also under investigation in connection with some serious financial crimes. He also has a large enough ego to realize that being VP under Kennedy is going to condemn him in the eyes of history as nothing more than a game show answer.

- There's no love lost between the flashy Kennedy's , and Johnson's "good old boy" mentality. He's worked his way up from essentially poverty, been the most powerful man in Congress, and now sees everything on the verge of going up in smoke.

- LBJ's also a good enough politician to see that getting rid of Kennedy , one year before the election, gives him enough time to manage a great record that will (in all probability) result in him being re-elected on his own. All he has to do is to capitalize on the "grieving nation" aspect, and promise to carry on the beloved JFK's programs (and wrap himself in his coat). Essentially, with his "Great Society" approach , he does exactly that.

Johnson pledged support for President Kennedy's legislative agenda, which included civil rights and education legislation.

That's to be expected, and it essentially works perfectly, resulting in his election.

- Johnson also realized he probably wasn't going to live long , as most of the males in his family shared a history of heart problems.


On July 2, while visiting George Brown's estate in Middleburg, Virginia, Johnson suffered a severe heart attack and entered Bethesda Naval Hospital. On August 7, he was released from Bethesda; on August 27, he returned to the LBJ Ranch to recuperate. Johnson did not return to Washington and Capitol Hill until December.

He had had his own and his family's medical history (his father died at 60 after a heart attack) fed into a computer, which predicted that he would not live beyond age 64. Johnson told a friend: "I'm going to enjoy the time I've got left. When I go, I want to go quick. I don't want to linger on the way Eisenhower did.",9171,906850-2,00.html

He was fifty five when he took office, and realized time was running out.

- LBJ also knew Texas like the back of his hand, knew important people there, and understood them. He also knew how to control them.

- LBJ was the one that pushed the move for a Dallas trip, and (initially) fought for an investigation in Texas. Under the law, the President's body SHOULD have stayed in Texas for autopsy.

The Secret Service screwed that one up, by essentially stealing the body to bring it home. Quite understandable, emotionally, to do. One wonders what LBJ must have thought when he heard that one....

- January 1963, Kennedy announced a planned reduction in oil depletion allowances - striking directly at the Texas oil producers wallets.

- On June 10th, 1963 Kennedy had given a speech at American University on " the most important topic on Earth - Peace. "

On July 2nd, Krushchev and Kennedy started a process that would result in the Nuclear Test Ban treaty in August. They had also announced a wheat deal.

- On October 2nd, 1963 , Defense Secretary McNamara and General Maxwell Taylor announced that major American involvement in Vietnam would end in 1965.

- In November of '63, Kennedy was already speaking of diplomatic negotiations with Castro, infuriating the Cuban nexus, which extended into both the intelligence and organized crime communities.

( The New York Times reported that the total financial losses for the Mob losing Cuba were estimated to be in the order of 350 to 700 million dollars. )

- On November 18th, 1963 , McNamara had spoken to the press about " a major cut in defense spending. McNamara stated that this would NOT be temporary, but " a fundamental strategic shift".

- Kennedy had also been quoted as saying that he wanted to splinter the CIA "into a thousand pieces, and scatter it to the winds" , due to the problems with the Bay Of Pigs and other CIA programs.

- JFK had slept with a Mob bosses girlfriend, and both he and RFK had initiated an all out war on organized crime (who had helped them get elected.

So what we see here is Kennedy being a pebble in a lot of people's shoes. Those people all had direct experience in how to kill someone, and how to get away with it. These people had killed others for far less reasons than the ones mentioned here.

Eisenhower had warned the nation only two years before about the great danger and influence of the military - industrial complex.

Kennedy, and his peace initiative , posed a great problem to a lot of people who were making a lot of money, and had a lot of power.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Again ......" We should take nothing for granted. " , as Eisenhower said.

If this Johnson theory is right, then it provides the perfect solution for all parties.

The shooters , a small number of men, do not have to know about the plot's real intent. Each sees their own motives (good ones , to them) in accomplishing the act. That sets them apart from the real ringleader.

Johnson only has to do a relatively small number of things, without any real direct ties, to start the ball rolling. Afterwards, he still has two things protecting him.

One, it can be blamed on either the Mob or CIA rogue agents. If it's the Mob, then it's business as usual , and people can be arrested. There's a good chance they will not be alive anyway, once that trail is opened.

If it's the CIA, then no one's going to want to touch that one. In 1963, that type of revelation wasn't going anywhere. Everything would have been done to protect it from discovery, since it would harm the nation's best interest.

You can almost imagine Johnson picking up the phone to Earl Warren and saying "Earl, this goes right to the heart of the CIA, and some key best drop this side of the investigation right now. "

And lastly , should it come back on LBJ, again that revelation would have caused some serious problems for America on many levels.

If you sit down and think about it, it's almost perfect in it's planning.
Joined: 3/26/2006
Msg: 39
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/18/2007 2:40:39 PM
If you've ever watched the movie the coporation, there is an eyewitness account of the head of IBM dismissing concerns over nazi germanys use of their computers to manage concentration camps
omg will you please learn a little history! there were no computers in WWII. The University of Pennsylvania was commissioned by the army to build the first one to do ballistic calculations for artillery and didnt finish it until 1944 and it was too slow do to much. (it became the univac). When computers did start, IBM chairman watson opposed getting his business into them and only when his son tood over in the 1950s did IBM enter the game. wrong on both counts
Joined: 3/26/2006
Msg: 40
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/18/2007 2:46:37 PM
the list for the kennedy assisination is almost endless. one of my favorites that is rarely discussed - ever look closely at a pic of Dealy Plaza? The Texas school book depository faces the street where the motorcade approached and turned left - it doesnt face the street where the shot were fired; thats almost a 90 degree angle going away. now you are the shooter and you have 2 choices:
1. the car coming directly at you ..getting closer and slowing down to make a turn, the target directly in front of you, or
2. wait for the car to turn left (target now moving away on your right) car going away, accelerating as it goes down hill PLUS there is a tree to obscure your view.

it doesnt add up
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 41
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Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/18/2007 3:14:19 PM
I don't buy the LBJ thing. To many people to be involved from a directive from the VP. And if he was that obcessed with being president, he would not have declined nomination for re election.

He declined re-election because he knew he could not win. In a very Shakespearean turn of events, if you believe in karma, he was blindsided by the war in Vietnam. That one little detail , unnoticed in the rush ( and who woulda thunk the Vietnamese could actually WIN in 1963 ? ) , grew into a cancer on his Presidency.

After the growing quagmire enveloped the nation, and when he heard people like Walter Cronkite going against him, he realized continuing on would mean he would become known as both the President that lost the war, and the President that was NOT re-elected because of it.

Time for a quiet exit off stage right , for the sake of the historical record and his legacy.

As for a great number of people, I don't think that's what was needed.

All that WAS needed was to direct the President into Dallas, and let that fact be known to a few people he could trust.

LBJ bought "presidential china" (p.256) in the fall of 1963!

Texas Connection: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy (Hardcover)
by Craig I. Zirbel

Interesting, given the chances of him ever becoming President, or even getting his party's nomination with at least two Kennedy's in the way.

Barr McLennen, another who knew him and worked with him, had his suspicions too.

Time and again, the successive cash schemes enriched both Estes and Johnson with large sums transferred to the then Senate Majority Leader's political re-election accounts. Those same sums were later transferred to the Brazos-Tenth Corporation administered by my law partner, Don Thomas for 'investment -- 20/20/40.î

Johnson was thoroughly aware of the fact that Estes was the target of an investigation. In those days, word of criminal reviews were routinely reported to top government officials known to be involved with the suspect. Just to keep politics out of the investigation, nothing had been done by USDA during the 1960 campaign; however, a top USDA inspector, Henry Marshall, had been assigned to see what was going on and his efforts were approaching critical mass. Johnson knew it was only a matter of time.

His mistress , Madeleine Duncan Brown, gives additional evidence.

The night before the Kennedy assassination, Lyndon Baines Johnson met with Dallas tycoons, FBI moguls and organized crime kingpins - emerging from the conference to tell his mistress Madeleine Duncan Brown that "those SOB's" would never embarrass him again. It's a jaw-dropping deposition and it's the biggest JFK smoking gun there is - despite the fact that it has received little media attention.

Before her death on June 22 2002, prolific author and lecturer Robert Gaylon Ross had the opportunity to conduct an 80 minute sit-down interview with Madeleine Duncan Brown and from that lengthy discussion the truth about exactly who was behind the assassination of JFK was exposed.

it is important to note that before her death Brown carried no hostility towards Lyndon Johnson and in fact was just as smitten with him as on the first day they met.

Brown said that the plan to kill JFK had its origins in the 1960 Democratic Convention, at which John F. Kennedy was elected as presidential candidate with Johnson as his running mate, where H.L. Hunt, an American oil tycoon, and Lyndon Johnson hatched the assassination plot.

"When they met in California Joe Kennedy, John Kennedy's father, and H.L. Hunt met met three days prior to the election - they finally cut a deal according to John Currington (an aide to H.L. Hunt) and H.L. finally agreed that Lyndon would go as the vice president....this came from the horse's mouth way back in 1960 - when H.L. came back to Dallas I was walking....with him....and he made the remark, 'we may have lost a battle but we're going to win a war,' and then the day of the assassination he said 'well, we won the war'," said Brown.

Brown said that in the immediate aftermath of the convention Hunt and Johnson mapped out a strategy to kill Kennedy.

"It was a total political crime and H.L. Hunt really controlled what actually happened to John Kennedy - he and Lyndon Johnson," said Brown.

In the video Brown describes the make-up and activities of the "8F group" which revolved socially and politically around Johnson and Hunt and included high rolling oil tycoons, judges and then FBI director J. Edgar Hoover.

The group included Jack Ruby, the Dallas nightclub owner who would later shoot the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald dead on November 24.

"We were playing poker at the Carousel Club and Jack Ruby came over and he said 'you know what this is?' and I looked up....he had this motorcade stung me that he would be this involved in knowing where the President of the United States that time in my life I thought they were untouchable," said Brown.

Brown described Ruby as the "in man" in Texas who could be trusted to arrange call girls, drugs, gambling fixes and even contract killings.

The group met for a party in Dallas hosted by Clint Murchison, another business tycoon with close links to the Genovese mafia, on November 21st 1963, the night before the assassination. Those present at the event included J. Edgar Hoover, Clyde Tolson, John J. McCloy, Jack Ruby, George Brown (of Brown and Root), numerous mafia kingpins, several newspaper and TV reporters, and Richard Nixon.

The party began to wind down at around 11 o' clock when the attendees were shocked to witness the arrival of Lyndon Johnson who had traveled from Houston. Clint Murchison immediately called a meeting.

"They all went in to this conference room.....Lyndon didn't stay that much in the meeting and when he came out....he grabbed me by the arm and he had this deep voice and he said, 'after tomorrow those S.O.B.'s will never embarrass me again - that's no threat - that's a promise.'"

"It was a political crime for political power," said Brown as she highlighted how people who were set to testify against Johnson for indictment proceedings, related to illegal kickbacks Johnson was receiving from agriculture programs before the assassination, were mysteriously set-up in homosexual scandals or found dead having allegedly shot themselves five times in the head.

"Had the assassination not happened the day that it did, Lyndon Johnson would have probably gone to prison - they would have gotten rid of him - he was so involved with some of this," said Brown.

See a pattern with all those witnesses in the JFK case, and those in the LBJ kickbacks ?

Motive ? There's a ton of them, for everyone involved.

Opportunity ? Self-created, and easy as pie to do. Lure the President (for valid political reasons ) to a city where a man like H.L. Hunt has incredible power. His name's been linked to the assassination by multiple people.

Dallas was a hotbed of anti-left sentiment.

Three years later, before the president's scheduled appearance, U.N. Ambassador Adlai Stevenson came to Dallas to speak at a U.N. Day program.

"There were some people who tried to downplay it later, even Adlai Stevenson himself," Mr. Payne said. "He said it was just a few people, but it wasn't just a few. I'd say it was half the auditorium, and that auditorium was packed."

During Mr. Stevenson's speech, protesters coughed in unison. They walked the aisles with upside-down American flags. Frank McGehee, leader of the National Indignation Committee, stood up and began shouting until police removed him.

With the speech over, Mr. Stevenson began to leave when an Oak Cliff housewife swung her anti-U.N. placard and bopped him on the head, an incident caught by TV and newspaper photographers. And as he neared a waiting car, an Irving college student spit at him.

"After I shoved him in the car ... [the protesters] started rocking the car, and the driver had to gun the car and almost kill a person to get out," the late Dallas retailer Stanley Marcus said years later. "There was a mob scene that night."

Walter Cronkite showed the television footage the next evening on the CBS news, and newspapers across the country ran the photo on the front page.

Yet, LBJ was the first to convince the President not to worry about it.

John Connelly, a very good friend of LBJ's, was asked by him NOT to ride in the President's limo.

President LBJ called him to ask for a "deathbed confession" from Oswald.

- Charles Crenshaw , one of the Dallas doctors that attended to both JFK and Oswald in the emergency room.

As a rather wealthy doctor, he has no real need for the money, reducing one possible motive. He's quite convinced that there was a conspiracy , and that the body was altered. He places his professional life ( as well as possibly his physical safety) on the line in doing so.

Why would the new President be so anxious for a "deathbed confession" ? It's pretty clear that any investigation would probably tie him to the killing, especially his exceptionally quick police description and arrest.

That strikes me as a most unusual thing for a President to directly do....
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 42
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/18/2007 3:17:09 PM

omg will you please learn a little history! there were no computers in WWII. The University of Pennsylvania was commissioned by the army to build the first one to do ballistic calculations for artillery and didnt finish it until 1944 and it was too slow do to much. (it became the univac). When computers did start, IBM chairman watson opposed getting his business into them and only when his son tood over in the 1950s did IBM enter the game. wrong on both counts

Actually it was not computers. It was however enumerating machines, and IBM did sell them to the Reich and they were used for the very purpose of enumerating and recording concentration camp prisoners. This is not conspiracy material, it is simple recorded history. Several books have popped up to expose the whole story behind it.

IBM And Nazi Germany
Researcher Has New Documents On World War II Conduct

NEW YORK, March 27, 2002
(REUTERS) Newly uncovered Nazi-era documents shed light on the alleged role IBM played in helping Hitler to carry out the Holocaust in Poland, according to the author of a controversial book on the subject.

Investigative reporter Edwin Black, the author of a book published last year entitled "IBM and the Holocaust", puts forward further evidence to support his claims of IBM's knowledge and complicity in Nazi operations in wartime Poland in the paperback version to be published this week.

Historians working as part of Black's research team said that in the paperback they had pieced together the previously fragmented story of IBM's role in supplying the organizational machinery used to to transport millions of people to Polish death camps.

Black and his researchers said recently discovered Nazi government documents in the U.S. National Archives and Polish eyewitness testimony link IBM's U.S. operations directly to the operations of the Third Reich in occupied Poland.

"The word has gotten out and a lot of people still alive are supplying information that they didn't have the context to understand before," said Robert Wolfe, an expert on Nazi records and former chief of captured German government documents for the U.S. National Archives.

Wolfe told Reuters historians were finding new meaning in previously available papers documenting the use of IBM Hollerith computer machines to carry out the Holocaust.

"For those who have complained the proof is not there, this leaves little room for deniability," said Wolfe, who assisted on research for Black's book. He said data found in newly uncovered German documents, when combined with IBM corporate files and eyewitness accounts and other sources, answer criticisms first-leveled at Black's claims.

"This is the proof that IBM enabled the Holocaust. The connection to New York is now proven," Wolfe, a former U.S. infantry officer who ran de-Nazification programs during the U.S. occupation of postwar Germany, said in a phone interview.

Several Holocaust scholars and leaders of international Jewish groups called on International Business Machines Corp. (IBM.N) to officially apologize for the role its technology and former officials had once played in aiding Hitler.

"This negates all the excuses," said Malcolm Hoenlein, a vice president of the New York-based Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations. "IBM has to look at what its role should be in light of these revelations."

An IBM spokeswoman responded by saying that information remained sketchy on the role of the Armonk, New York-based company and that of its subsidiaries in Nazi Germany and that she was unaware of any new evidence implicating IBM.

"We are a technology company, we are not historians," spokeswoman Carol Malkovich said, noting that, like hundreds of U.S. companies, IBM had started losing control of its business in Germany beginning with Hitler's rise to power in 1933.

IBM turned over its corporate records of the period several years ago to academic archives in New York and Stuttgart, Germany, for review by independent scholars, Malkovich said, adding that: "IBM and the employees of this company of course find the atrocities committed by the Nazis abhorrent."

Historians have known for decades of Nazi use of Hollerith tabulators - the mainframe computer of its era.

But Black's book last year opened up debate on the little understood role of how central IBM technology may have been in allowing Nazis to systematically identify and help select victims of the Holocaust.

Black told Reuters that evidence uncovered after the book's publication had emerged on the role of a special wartime IBM subsidiary known as Watson Business Machines that reported directly to the New York headquarters through the Geneva offices of International Business Machines Corp.

He said his research had uncovered the existence of a 500-man Nazi statistical operation in Krakow that handled the complex task of scheduling trains used to transport prisoners from other European nations to death camps in Poland.

This so-called Hollerith Department of Polish Railways also calculated the rate of deaths per square kilometer due to progressive starvation and other arcane facts compiled to satisfy the Nazi's lust for statistics, Black said.

Leon Krzemieniecki, likely the only man still living who worked in the department, said in the book he did not understand at the time the role his office had in transporting Jews to the gas chambers. "I only know that this very modern equipment made possible the control of all the railway traffic in the General Government (of Poland)," he said.

The movie in question was a documentary, not a dramatic piece...well...not knowing the sources or it's validity I can't comment on that other than to say "The Corporation" was INTENDED to be a documentary.
Joined: 8/10/2007
Msg: 43
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 8/18/2007 9:46:24 PM
Cheney set up the Iranian Nuclear Crisis to acheive a United Arab Union for the Globalists.

I base this on his selling the centrifuges to the Iranians back in 1996 when working for Halliburton. Going into Iraq was the first step to unite the arabs. Finding a solution for the mess the Americans left in Iraq, once they withdraw, will be the reason they will all start talking and cooperating since it will affect the security of the entire region. Why do you think Halliburton moved their Headquarters to Dubai? How much Military Aid is going to the UAE?
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 44
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 9/2/2007 6:15:31 AM
On the surface conspiracy theories sound sexy for the humdrum human in all of us lmao. I really do believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone... He was an unemployed military man that was very depressed looking for a name. Sorry folks. I know many people believe that 911 is a conspiracy but I truly believe that govt knew about it but chose to ignore it because they wanted to go into Iraq. I do not believe any govt members were in on it though. If I had to pick one thing that may be a conspiracy the closest thing I can come up with is FLIGHT 800 that was supposedly shot down,accidentally, in Atlantic Ocean off of Long Island around 1994 . I believe terrorists were somehow involved with that and that plane may have actually have been headed to WTC. Just my opinion folks. Keeping things like that a secret is important because airlines economy can go way down , being detrimental to economy on the whole.
Joined: 4/19/2006
Msg: 45
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 9/23/2007 7:06:34 PM

If you've ever watched the movie the coporation, there is an eyewitness account of the head of IBM dismissing concerns over nazi germanys use of their computers to manage concentration camps.

IBM "computers" in the 1940s?

WOW!!! Revise the history books.
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 46
view profile
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 9/24/2007 5:56:09 AM

IBM "computers" in the 1940s?

WOW!!! Revise the history books.

Well, essentially not far off the mark. For that time period , the punch card data processing machines were "computers" ( in a similar way we define the word today). When I first started studying Cobol, we still used punch cards going into a machine.

IBM Hollerith high-speed punch-card machines

"The precision, speed and reliability of IBM's machines," the Swiss judge ruled, "especially related to the censuses of the German population and racial biology by the Nazis, were praised in the publications of Dehomag itself, the branch of respondent IBM. It does not thus seem unreasonable to deduce that IBM's technical assistance facilitated the tasks of the Nazis in the commission of their crimes against humanity, acts also involving accountancy and classification by IBM machines and utilized in the concentration camps themselves."

The judge's ruling pointedly added: "In view of the preceding, IBM's complicity with material and intellectual assistance in the criminal acts of the Nazis during the Second World War by means of its Geneva establishment does not appear to be ruled out, as there is a great deal of evidence indicating that the Geneva establishment was aware that it was aiding and supporting these acts."

The initial tattoos placed on those arms of the victims of the Shoah were actually five-digit Hollerith numbers, a system that later evolved into other things.

There's no doubt that the Nazis job was made far easier by this technology, and that IBM profited from it.
Joined: 7/5/2005
Msg: 47
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 9/24/2007 8:58:25 PM

this is a whacky one just for huukdonfoniks
Been to the moon or not??? Even though there is some interesting evidence that make you wonder???? Its not have they been or not.... (Since they left enough stuff behind to pretty close the case on going).......but did they go in the Apollo program or like so many of the "ex army/navy /airforce" types not to mention the imfamous "Commander X" that tells of the OTHER secret space program using alien technology.........Yes folks to the moon and mars in real space ships......
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 48
view profile
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 10/6/2007 7:53:50 PM
Well, considering I'm probably one of those people you are addressing.....

That there is a lot of confusion, and shoddy investigation, concerning 9/11, on that we probably agree. As to the why ? I strongly believe it's due to an administration that was asleep at the wheel over the most obvious threat to the nation.

The 9/11 conspiracy theorists who argue that no commercial airliners were used turn me off totally to the idea. There's more than enough evidence to prove that.

All the warnings, the Phoenix memo, the arrest of someone training to do exactly the type of attack done that day, the evidence concerning that, his confession ...

That's the best proof that the government wasn't directly behind it, except for allowing it a far greater chance of success by doing nothing. Had they directed the attack, at least some mention of the threat would have been made. Not having done that makes them look like idiots.

Releasing Operation Northwood to the public in April 2001 ? A plan that essentially mirrors this type of operation, and proves that the American government could actually propose such a plan ?

Not too bright either...if you are about to do it.

Bush's father meeting with the prime suspects father at a business meeting the same day ? Again, not too bright. The President's brother working for a security firm covering the WTC ? The only thing they didn't do was all wear clothes advertising it : " We're planning this massive conspiracy, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

The concept that buildings could be pre-wired with explosives that survive plane hits ? Sorry.....doesn't work for me. Not after reading the type of damage done by those planes impact.

All the people on them no longer here ? Their body parts and DNA recovered at the scene ? As I've said, all it would take is one survivor getting an independent test done to see if it really was them. If it is, then the conspiracy involves not only all that happened on that day, but another group killing these passengers and somehow getting their remains into all those buildings unnoticed. Again, doesn't work for me.

The concept that the conspiracy theorists try and make those buildings appear far stronger than they actually were before collapse, to help their theory ? Not supported by the historical testimony of the best witnesses, the NYFD.

They seem to argue that the NTFD and NYPD are all in on this conspiracy, by their silence. No one speaks out against their murder ? Again, doesn't I must acquit.

No WMD's found in Iraq, when that was far easier to pull off ? Again, that makes them look bad. If 9/'11 leads to Iraq (and certainly the use of it by this administration in this regard confirms that) , then failing to find what they told the world they KNEW was there was a critical error.

All these things and more, plus the complexity of such a plan to even begin with (with no credible person coming forth to point it out) , all this tells me that those planes hit the buildings in a terrorist act and the resulting damage collapsed them.

If you want to fit that scenario in with your conspiracy theory , I'll perhaps start to agree with at least some of your points.

If it starts with exceptionally weak (or no) commercial airliners hitting those buildings, and then those buildings being made to look far stronger (when actually seen as possible collapses approaching long before the "charges" were blown) - then we will remain on either side of this Great Divide.
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 49
view profile
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 10/6/2007 8:54:38 PM

I do not cater to theory. I cater to fact. I question the Pentagon for the simple reason that NO CLEAR FOOTAGE has ever been shown. WHY?

Again, from my work experience, I have an easy answer for that. I've worked with surveillance cameras since 1996. That qualifies me, as someone with eleven years of working with the technology, in commenting.

Those CCTV cameras are directed against human threats. People, car bombs, entrances, secure areas ....etc. Especially then, even at the Pentagon, they were not high quality cameras. At that time, videotape recorders were used , at maximum economy for tape.

They weren't there to spot crashing planes, especially in an area under renovation. It's no surprise that cameras surrounding the Pentagon didn't catch it either. They weren't protecting it, they were protecting those same things I mentioned - the obvious human threat areas.

They are not high speed, and won't reveal much information because of that limitation. They are not high quality either, because (at that time) tape recorders were being used at maximum economy.

They are one heck of a lot better today, with DVD recording or hard disk. They would still face the same limitations of being typically directed to those "high threat" areas. They are still heavily compressed .
Joined: 8/26/2006
Msg: 50
Most likely conspiracy theory
Posted: 10/8/2007 12:46:01 AM
I don't trust you watchman. You are a misdirector I believe, how nutty it is to say there is no conspiracy. What idiot believes that?

What about voter fraud? Look up Diebold voter fraud or

How about secret societies and the presidents that is a proven and provable conspiracy imo. If you add in the largest inverted pentagram within the roads at the white house you have a great start to your novel. Google earth that or the pentagram er ah pena....

What about war profit and conflict of interest? Or an owned media where you can research the owners etc..

You are full of crap and you know it. Now go tell your buddy to boot my comments and erase my profile like you right wing goonies do very often.

No conspiracy, no wonder you are alone. You are a misdirection lying fool.

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