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 cap15
Joined: 6/30/2008
Msg: 28
double standardsPage 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
I would love kids what ever they were. The children have to realize not every accepts this life style and don't push it doun peoples throats. Is there a double standard YES
 ~Beave~
Joined: 5/7/2008
Msg: 29
double standards
Posted: 8/5/2008 11:20:25 PM
This weekend I saw a pregnant 13 year old girl from my son's grade school. Her older sister who isn't much older has a toddler. Permissive parenting rocks!

I don't care if my kids are gay or straight, I don't want them having sex until they are mature enough to accept the responsiblities that come with it, call me backwards if you must.
 ~Beave~
Joined: 5/7/2008
Msg: 30
double standards
Posted: 8/6/2008 9:01:20 AM

I am only challenging the idea that this should never happen under a parent's roof, or that "maturity" level is defined by the legal age of 18 years old, which is completely arbitrary.

I don't even have sex under my own roof since I'm not in a relationship. My sex life is a secret because I don't want my kids to believe that I condone sex outside a committed mature relationship. I respect and care for my lover enough to not pretend to have the emotion to invest in a relationship so I can get laid a couple times a week in my own bed.

My sons have been taught they are responsible for their actions and choices. Teaching children morality goes a long way vs teaching them to be afraid of sex. They understand sex should be respected and it's primary nature is for procreation not pleasure. They know that consentual sex is more then just a woman's saying no, how some people equate sex with love and they must not cause harm to another person for their own gradification. They understand the pitfalls of sex and the rewarding exchange that can take place if they choose to wait for the right person. My 13 year old has a better understanding of sexuality then most 18 year olds but that doesn't mean he has the maturity to handle it.

If they have sex, then they will have to sneak around like I do.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 31
view profile
History
double standards
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:01:40 AM
Wel, Conscious when I was young single and never married my living spaces had one rule . There weren't any.
But now as a single Mom, my views and practices have changed greatly. When you have a young daughter or son you love then one day your views may change as well.
I am 45 most of my friends are within a few years of my age. I do not tend to befriend young teens or 20 somethings and invite them to do the humpty dance under my roof. Just because a kid can join the army or buy a beer does not mean I have to feel comfortable about their having bed partners in my home.
When my son or daughter is on their own, finished college and self supporting etc I imagine they will be welcome to bring their SO to my home for the weekend. Provided of course that I 'the homeowner' am comfortable with that person. In certain cases I may not be and they are always welcome to get a hotel room regardless of sexual orientation, gender or their ability to pay for it. I also reserve the right to change my rules whenever the hell I want to. My philosophy is this, I pay the bills I make the rules those that do not like my rules can leave or sleep elsewhere. I can be as unbending or as grey as I want to be because there is no law saying I have to be politically correct in my own home.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 32
double standards
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:00:50 PM
I think conscious has a lot of ideas that are correct.. Open communication is essential.. Understanding that your 17/18 yr old may be ready for a healthy sexual relationship even if we aren't prepared for them to have that. Being sexual in no way makes our children/young adults either bad, dirty, or irresponsible.. ESPECIALLY if we have taught them and emulated responsible behaviour to them throughout their lives. At some point we have to trust them to make correct decisions. How do you know when your child is ready to cross the road by him/herself? How do you know when your child is ready to ride their first bike, stay home alone, babysit someone else's kids, drive a vehicle, etc. We are constantly making choices and determining when our children are ready and it has everything to do with our communication skills and comprehension of our children as who they are becoming.

That being said, I personally can't fathom the idea of my daughter, who is presently 18 1/2 yrs old, spending intimate times with a significant other in my home. I haven't brought anyone into my home, I haven't had sexual relationships in front of them, and the idea of it does make 'me' uncomfortable. On the other hand, I have allowed her the freedom to spend time over at friends. Usually this is with females.. but there have been times there are males around... and I have had very detailed conversations on how to protect herself if she does become intimate and how to protect herself from becoming a victim of date rape (with or without drugs). She's a smart, motivated, and self-respecting young woman. At this point in time she is not actively involved with someone, but should she become involved with someone it would be her business.. but at least I know that not allowing her to have sexual relationships within my home is because of MY COMFORT... and nothing to do with protecting her. Puhlease!!!.. it can and WILL happen out there .. she can and WILL SNEAK if she wants to do it.

I don't have the answer. I've told her that I don't condone uncommitted sexual relationships, I've told her that if she is in a committed relationship (or not) and becomes active, to ensure she is protecting herself.. from both pregnancy and STI's. I've told her that she will have to find somewhere else to share that with her partner.. maybe he has his own place... maybe his parents will allow them... maybe they sneak it when I'm/his parents are out... All I know is that I can't allow it inside my home.. at least, not right now. What the future holds I couldn't tell you...

Furthermore... for those saying you will stop her/him from being influenced by becoming their shield... by them becoming afraid of disappointing/angering you... you're dreaming. It was done to me and it had a very negative effect. Instead of developing a loving relationship with someone I knew, someone my age, I ended up getting involved with the first 'man' who knew how to take what he wanted.. .and he happened to be 37 yrs of age as opposed to my 18 yrs at the time. Ended up with two beautiful children and a very emotionally, mentally, and at times physically abusive marriage from which I'm still healing parts of myself. So, in the end, I wish I'd given my virginity to one of the younger pups who knew that I wasn't a whore (well my ex knew it but decided to play it off that way anyway).. and could have developed a healthy relationship.

Don't be naive.. we can't control them.. only empower them. Yes, I understand the desire to not have closed doors... but I also know the benefits of an honest open relationship.

And, on another note, I'm a parent of both a female and a male child.. and it IS different, even though I've done my best to ensure that he has been taught the same lessons of respect and safety. The main difference is in the attitude of my ex-husband to each child. So my question then becomes, how many of you, honestly, hold your children to a different standard?

rock_hard.. you speak as if you have a daughter.. .but you don't .. at least not from what I've read/known of you. Are you going to enforce these same rules you are extolling to your son?
 deviousduckie
Joined: 7/28/2006
Msg: 33
double standards
Posted: 8/8/2008 11:06:26 AM
i totally agree Ms. B. Whether or not my children are straight or not has nothing to do with the issue. There needs to be some definate bounderies. I was not allowed to have the door closed with a boy in there, and the same rules will apply to my kids. I will educate my children on the risks and results of having sex, the best i can hope for is they take it seriously.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 34
double standards
Posted: 8/8/2008 7:17:15 PM

Actually it's rock_hunter, although I find your Freudian slip quite amusing.


LOL.. not sure that it is a good slip ;) ... but quite funny nonetheless.

I agree that guidelines and expectations of our children are essential.. and definitely, at the age of 12 yrs, they stand up as a form of protection for our children. However, it depends on the relationship as well... What are you going to do if/when you discover your child is having sex at 16.. 17.. 18 yrs of age.. by sneaking around? How then are you going to handle the situation?

I'm glad to hear you will treat your son the same way.. because I have evidenced it too many times not being done.

I do have to ask you another question now though... rock_HUNTER.. lol. You said that you do not wish to see your son encumbered with child support payments at a young age.. which is obviously fair. However, I didn't see you make mention of him becoming a 'father' at a young age... so do tell me, if it did happen, would you expect him to actually participate as a father and be part of the child's life.. or only to provide child support?

In any case, it isn't an easy situation.. and getting back to the topic at hand.. I feel it would be complicated regardless of the sexual orientation of my kids. I wouldn't want either of them to close the doors behind them when they have someone over with whom they are in a relationship..
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 35
double standards
Posted: 8/9/2008 10:43:02 PM
Hello to you as well ConsciousSoul, and thank you for your kind words and response.

Communication is essential in any relationship, whether between two adults or between parents and a child.. but I am confident I'm preaching to the choir with you when I say that.

You are correct in that I have a very wonderful and enriching relationship with my kids although I have to admit that sometimes being open with them can be miscontrued as a 'friendship' during the teenage years and I have had to put my foot down once or twice as they mistook the boundary.. lol. No harm done because, while I had to ensure the boundary was present, my communication with them was open enough that they understood why I did so.. and realized the difference. I haven't had to do that in a while mind you ;)

In regards to this:

I also think, given what I read from you so far, that if you started to be regularly sexually active at home, with a regular boyfriend, you'd probably start accepting this from your 18 and half years old too, because emulation, and the absence of double standard, is such an important thing for parents. What do you think?

I have to be honest and say at the present time I'm unsure of what I would do in that situation. I can't, for the life of me, imagine bringing someone home.. or a regular boyfriend.. for sexual intimacy. At least not right now. Then again, if it did become a regular relationship and the gentleman became a part of our lives.. then it would only be the next logical step.

I think there would be a lot of issues to consider in this scenario and while I would hate for you to think I'm not 'budgeting' for a possible investment, I will have to take one out of rock_hunter's books to cross that bridge when I get there. What I do know is that I cannot get up on my soapbox and say "No way, No how"... to it. I've done that before and ended up with egg on my face.. lol.

Right now as it stands, however, I'm not sure I would still permit it to occur. Like I already stated though, as things stand, I still can't imagine sharing sexual intimacies with a partner under my roof right now WHEN my kids are at home. AND you know what, the kids don't want to come home to that either... trust me, the topic HAS come up in discussions... lol.

And finally ConsciousSoul, I hope you do indeed find the right woman to have kids with. I'm sure she will be as open as you desire her to be and that you will both make wonderful parents. While reading books and gaining knowledge isn't the answer to everything, I fully believe that it allows us to see things from different perspectives, to determine other methods of action and/or reaction that we might have otherwise not considered, and allows us the opportunity to pick and choose that which works best for our own belief/value system. I'm sure your children will benefit from your care, concern, tolerance, and communication skills.

-- Best of luck to you.. and your !!
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 36
double standards
Posted: 8/9/2008 10:57:58 PM
rock_hunter, thank you for your honest answers. Nobody can deny the love and protection you have for your son. It is wonderful and beautiful.. and he is very lucky to have a father who cares so much.

I think you said a lot when you said that you'd have to 'cross that bridge' when you get to it. Raising children to respect sexuality for the huge responsibility it is.. for what can be produced from it and yet to allow them to develop a healthy sexual persona.. isn't easy to achieve... especially with all the confusing images and attitudes that are available to them in this day and age. Our children know 10x if not more than we did by the time they are 7-9 yrs old... and by the time they hit highschool, well I believe it is about 50% have already become active. I might be off on that percentage and will happily be corrected... but I am confident it lies between 25% and 50%.

I fully appreciate that you want to help your son prevent making an error and creating an unwanted/unplanned pregancy. I agree that you owe it to him and to the girl who may be there as well.. we ALL owe that to our children. Unfortunately, my experience, both in life and as a parent watching the raising of other children, that if there isn't open communication, the child gets curious and starts to play with things they don't understand. I personally would rather teach my children how to light a match... a candle.. or climb the stairs.. or swim in the water... than to hold them back and see them try it themselves, only to fall, burn, or drown.

You are entitled to set your rules and to raise your child as you see fit.. that is the truth with everyone.. but being open to discussion with your child doesn't mean you're bieng their friend. Set your boundaries, your rules and expectations, but please... be prepared to handle the situation if your son falls short of these expectations. I'm sure you will.. It's just that sometimes kids will pull away from their parents if they feel they are not fulfilling the expectations laid upon them.

And one more thing, that bridge WILL come one day... as much as you'd prefer it stayed away.. lol. I've had to cross it myself and the good news is that, because of our open communication and the fact that my daughter knows my love for her is 'unconditional' even when disappointed in her choices or behaviour, I was approached for advice, etc.. Had it been any other way, she would have pushed me away and sought guidance or knowledge from a stranger at best... and would have just made up her own mind without any input at worst.

I am not trying to preach to the choir with you either.. just hoping that you really open your mind to 'communication' with your son. And, well, reading parenting books doesn't make you any less of a person.. It's always interesting to learn how other people deal with various situations.. At least, it is in my opinion

Have a great day..

EDITED to add
..about your son and that 'possible' situation of him impregnating a girl while they are both young.. it is true that will miss out on many, many things. However, likewise true is the fact that he will have the opportunity to grow in so many, many ways.. ways that wouldn't be afforded him if he continued on in an 'unencumbered' life. I am in NO WAY suggesting teenage pregnancy is healthy or should be advocated.. but rather pointing out that while we so often attempt to protect our children we often forget that the sword is forged in fire... and that it is when we are most challenged that we often arise to grow stronger and show our greatness.

I sincerely hope that if a situation like that does occur, that you support him and encourage him to be the type of father to that child as you have been to him. Walking away would only leave a tarnish on his heart and soul.. especially if you're raising him with the values that you are claiming. But alas, it is just a hypothetical situation and HOPEFULLY one you'll never have to worry about!!
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 37
double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 12:12:43 AM
You've taken my words and manipulated them to your own interpretations rock_hunter. PLEASE go back and find 'where' I said that open communication is equivalent to handing them a condom and saying go for it? DO NOT put words into my mouth or rather into my post. I wasn't deriding you or negating you.. just stating the fact that if you do NOT have open communication you're in for a world of trouble. Open communications, while also including why they should or should not do something, does not mean telling them what you think and ruling that you're right without an opportunity for them to express their own thoughts and views on the matter either -- which is an attitude that has seemed to generate or flow from your own words. That may not have been your intention, but it is exactly how it came across.

Likewise, I didn't say to allow him to get someone pregnant.. I was refering to your "comment" that you didn't know whether you would encourage him to stand up and be a father. That is once a PREGNANCY/child has already occurred. Hell of course you shouldn't encourage it.. nobody here is saying you should. HOWEVER, no matter how tough the situation is, IF it were to happen, then how could you actually even consider having him walk away, which is what it sounded like. Protect them yes, but to have them walk away?? Besides, given that you are correct and you can 'keep' him from having sex until he is out of the house, it really is a moot point, isn't it?

Don't see enemies or contradictions where there aren't any. And as pointed out before, if you're going to refer to something being said, you ought to make sure that you've taken the correct connotation from it. Misrepresenting what I said only makes you look bad.. and argumentative for the sake of being right and arguing.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 38
double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 12:51:43 AM

I didn't mean it that way, sorry if that's how you understood it.

Apology accepted.



then how could you actually even consider having him walk away, which is what it sounded like.

Where did that come from? Nowhere in my posts I've said that he should "walk away". He should assume his responsibility, even if only by paying child support. The thing is, he can avoid being burdened by this responsibility by not putting himself in the position of having it in the first place.


I had asked if you would encourage him to act as a father or just to provide child support. You had said you weren't certain, that he'd miss out on so many things. That uncertainty made it appear as though you would allow him to only provide CS and then live his life to his best. While I agree that CS is important, and that there are options where the child could be adopted, that in the case where the child is being kept, CS isn't the most important thing.

Likewise, my comment on him having the opportunity to grow dealt more along the lines that if the mistake occurs, then learning to accept responsibility and being an 'active father' in some way, shape, or form, as difficult as that may be, would provide him with the opportunity to grow. I didn't mean to say that teenage pregnancies are a great medium for a person to mature.

I think my biggest concern in this regard is that often I hear and see parents who want the best for their child/children... that's a given because we all do.. or should in any case. However, there are those who try to prevent their children from facing responsibilities.. as a means of protecting them.. and it usually ends badly. My brother has a friend whose father is a judge. They are in their mid-30's now, but this young man was caught drinking and driving on many different occasions, but the police failed to show up to court... the wrong papers were processed.. etc. Now, just recently, he actually returned back here, stepped out of the car, and took a swig of a beer bottle. He has never been made to account for his behaviour -- never had to live up to owning his errors and even now, when he should be a mature adult, he's still riding around half-baked and without any concern or caution because he just figures daddy will take care of it.

I am in no WAY implying that you would do the same. However, when it appeared to me that you would consider having him only contribute CS, it brought this and other examples to mind. Sometimes the hardest things we have to do create the greatest and strongest character from us.

And you're right, keeping teenage pregnancies from occuring in the first place should be of our utmost priority. When it does happen, it takes everyone, including the parents of both teens, to diminish the negative repercussions. Unfortunately, both sets of parents aren't willing to help out oft times!
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 39
double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 9:55:36 AM
Hey Nyemesis,

I'm glad that you too wish to protect your child, but as you said.. and they will do what they want.

In defense of ConsciousSoul you have no right to jump down his throat either. At no point did he ever say that allowing your children to sleep under your roof at '15 yrs' is what he is advocating. He is advocating tolerance and communication. While I personally couldn't see myself allowing children to have sex under my roof with my knowledge and permission, he is stating that it may be safer to have it occur as such, rather than have them sneak around.. and you know what, they will.

As for commenting on his parents 'parenting' style.. isn't that just as ignorant as what you have accused him of being? Again, you said not to judge parenting unless you're a parent. His parents have already raised their children, and from what I can tell, he is a deep thinker. We may not agree with various parenting ideas that he, or others, may have but that doesn't mean that we are necessarily correct and everyone else wrong either. Perhaps if his parents hadn't allowed him the safety of his privacy and the ofference of condoms he and his girlfriend at the time might have snuck outside and done it.. Perhaps they would have done so without any condoms.. and she could have become pregnant. None of us can or will know the ramifications.

On another point, however.. my father, as strict as he was and as much as I was raised to 'wait' (mostly by my mother).. attempted to put me on birth control pills as soon as I reached 14 yrs of age. I literally had to 'fight' with him NOT to be put on it, because he came from a small area and knew of many young girls whose lives had been thrown away by becoming pregnant. He told me I was too smart and had too much to offer to allow the 'heat of the moment' to ruin my life. Thankfully we came to a compromise that should I ever get involved with someone and feel the urge to explore my sexuality that I would either come to them or go to a health clinic and obtain birth control. At the time STI's weren't as documented or a concern as they are now. In any case, even teenagers know what is right or wrong for them... if you have allowed them the freedom to think for themselves and the ability to trust their own judgment.

I think the bottom line is that we all agree to the same thing on here. Some of us are just promoting the idea that you can't 'control' them completely.. so empower them.
 Seriouslytaken
Joined: 6/23/2008
Msg: 40
double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:30:28 AM
I have no kids, thank God.
But if I had, I would be in favor of strict boundaries, at least till the kid has demonstrated decent critical thinking skills. That usually happens when they are not kids anymore. Yes, I would see a problem if my kid hanged around lesbians or gays when he/she does not have a well developed mind. Those kind of choices belong to the years of maturity, not to teenage years. Even if it was only for discovery purposes, I would likely discourage it. I am in favor of loving discipline and respect of societal rules. I would not want a kid of mine to grow up eccentric as I did: it makes like very difficult.
I have grown to love structure and traditions ( too late, unfortunately!) At times I resent my parents for having allowed too much freedom when I was not ready for it. It's like treating a child like an adult: Not very wise. To this day I have a problem setting healthy boundaries.



You can help, not dictate anymore
. I disagree: you dictate till the kid has demonstrated he/she is able to make reasoned choices. This means helping and directing properly, In my opinion. Sometimes adults can take risks in order to see if the kid is able to manage it, but they have to be careful in assessing where the fine line is. Always better to err on the side of caution, especially in relations to sex, health, and what could become an unhealthy habit. To help a child develop wise habits is a sign of wisdom. You don't give too many choices to somebody unable to manage them. Now, some adults are less wise than their children....but that is a different story. A 16 yo kid is still a kid: it hasn't developed ethical boundaries yet.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 41
double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 1:44:51 PM

. Now, some adults are less wise than their children....but that is a different story. A 16 yo kid is still a kid: it hasn't developed ethical boundaries yet.

You aren't serious with this, are you? *raised eyebrows*.. Perhaps SOME 16 yr olds haven't developed 'ethical boundaries'... but many have. This comes from my own life experience, from that of my siblings, and also from that of my children's lives.

Right now, my son is only TURNING 16 yrs old and he is more mature and ethical in ways that exceed the average adult. I KNOW this because I talk to him.. I'm INVOLVED in his life.. I KNOW who he is with and what he is doing. I have interacted with him while he interacts with his friends.. I have watched from the sideline as he has interacted with others. Please do NOT put your limitations on my son or other teenagers. That is a huge problem that teens suffer from anyway each and every day... often being considered "troubled teens"... "confused teens"... "immature people who think they know everything"..

Fair enough, some aren't mature and THEY DO need more guidance and restrictions. However, there ARE those who know exactly what they are or aren't ready for and adults who diminish this are diminishing them as people. My son only had his first kiss a couple of months ago, and in spite of there being MANY girls who have decided they like him now that he's into 'football' and getting 'cut' physically.. he still will not just go out on a date, or get involved with just ANYONE. He turns 16 yrs in about two weeks and has told me that he doesn't care what a girl wants to do... if he doesn't feel right or isn't ready to hold hands, kiss, etc.. then he will NOT do it. He has also explained the differences to me between why he likes one girl opposed to another -- and you know what that is???? It is her intelligence... not 'book smarts' per se... but on a deeper level. Of course he likes the girls with the nice bodies .. the real cuties.. but he has no desire to just go jump them and explore. HE is a HELL of a lot more mature than half the men here on POF!! And that is just my son... that doesn't even begin to cover my daughter.. but she's 18 1/2 now and is 'classified' as an adult.

Yes, PROTECT your children.. yes SET GUIDELINES... and rules.. You yourself have said that you felt you were given a free reign. Children and teenagers do not THRIVE in an environment that does not HAVE BOUNDARIES. They are necessary. But whatever you do, do not 'lump' them into some kind of category and say 'better to be safe than sorry'. Better to be knowledgeable and in communications with them.

As for the 12 yr olds out there having sex.. I'll let you know something. Early onset sexual interaction is one indication that a child has been abused or is from an abusive/dysfunctional home. MOST kids who are raised to respect themselves and others in a healthy, functional environment do not feel the need to become sexual at such a young age. They are taught and are ready to hear about the responsibilities and the importance of it. They are open to discussions as well. It is the children who have come from dictatorial families.. who have not enjoyed the opportunity to learn who they are and to believe in themselves who search out sexual liasons with others...

And, for those who are giving ConsciousSoul such a difficult time about wanting to prepare our children.. there was a news story within the last couple of months where it was claimed that young girls were making a 'pact' to get pregnant. The number of pregnancies skyrocketed within this one particular community and school. A few days or a couple of weeks later one young girl who was pregnant came forth and spoke up. She said she didn't know if others had made a pact or not... but that wasn't what happened in her situation. INSTEAD, what happened was that this PARTICULAR school decided to REMOVE the easy access to condoms that was available within the guidance and health areas of the school. This Catholic school wanted to remove them because they thought having them there PROMOTED sexuality in the teens and they believed that by removing them from access they would remove the 'temptation' the kids were under and stop them (aka control them) from becoming sexually involved. It was such a big deal that the school nurse and physician RESIGNED over this decision because they needed to make their own point that this was only a disaster waiting to happen. And you know what... it was. Instead of 'controlling' the teens and keeping them 'restricted' what they did was stop them from having access to protection. Now, not only could some of these youngsters have managed to come in contact with or transmitted STI's.. but many ended up pregnant. One reporter asked "Well, why didn't you go to the drugstore and purchase them?"... and the young girl and her boyfriend looked at each other and replied that their community is very small and it is very embarrassing, for teenagers in particular, to buy them... especially when their neighbours can identify them... and tell their parents.

So?.. what is better?.. prepare your child and hope that the communication and guidance (boundaries/guidelines) you've set deters them until they are ready, or to pull away from it altogether and hope it just goes away? I know where I stand and how I've handled it... and for me, it's been working out wonderfully.
 Seriouslytaken
Joined: 6/23/2008
Msg: 42
double standards
Posted: 8/10/2008 3:13:38 PM
Message 75:
It takes more than 16 years of age to make a person experienced, self aware and with good judgment.
There are exceptions to the rules, of course, but a teenager does not have enough life experience and discrimination to make choices on the ethical level (and when I talk about ethics, I am not referring to what is legal and what isn't....so to speak) He might distinguish what is right from what is wrong, according to common standard of behaviors, but is he really able to discriminate between what is wholesome ( = conducive to own's own good) and what is not, at that age? Teenagers have not yet developed a sense of principles and conduct of behavior that is their own ( unconditioned by the environment they live in). At that age they usually have a 'common sense' ethics, they don't understand what it means to make choices in line with your one's own beliefs and principles: this kind of consciousness is developed later in life. As teenagers, they don't have enough knowledge of the world.
This has nothing to do with protective sexual measures. It has to do with sexual inclination, and, possibly, with the desire to experiment with what is out of the norm. Now, this whole thread was based on the assumption that the kid in question is lesbian or gay. How do they know that at 16 years old? I am of the opinion that sexual inclination is a choice, not something people get born with. Therefore in order to say "I am lesbian" one should have tried both. I doubt at 16 yo one has that kind of knowledge and life experience. It would be very dangerous if he had it. They are allowed a certain innocence at that age, which is a good thing.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 43
double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 11:47:07 AM

Yes, he actaully argued with Rock_Hunter, or Rock_Hard if you perfer
So the first thing you start off with is an insult ... so to speak.. because I made ONE error in writing out a persons name..??? It was no freudian slip.. at least not a sexual one... which is why when I responded I said I didn't know if it was a good slip. Had more to do with someone heaving a rock-hard head... However, to be fair to rock_hunter, since talking with him.. he's not as "hard-headed" as originally thought.


Just because you snuck around behind your parents back, after you refused birth control ,doesn't mean all children will

AND where do you premise this accusation from??? hmm.. WHERE did I ever say I 'snuck' around. Again, just shows ignorance coming from you.


Your parent offered you birth control, and then you say that you were under very strict parents. Hmm? You refused the brith control, yet you try to blame your parents for the sneaking around. That was all you, and your excuse is if you had asked, they would have said no. And that is why you had to sneak around, and have sex. It's all your parents fault right? Or maybe you just weren't mature enough to make the right decision. Weird how that keeps comming up.

Let me reiterate.. my parents hadn't 'offered' me birth control.. I had to fight my father NOT to go on it, because of things he saw in his small town. So, if I tell my kids that they can't go out in the boat... yet make sure that there are life jackets available.. I'm what.. a permissive parent? No I'm a wise parent who realizes that the possibility exists that they might sneak out.. as children do. Go ahead and preach and don't provide any 'life jackets' to your kids... but don't go crying when they end up hurt either. My parents WERE strict and I don't need to even touch your comment.. it's not even a question.. it's a reality.

A s for my 'blaming' them.. no I didn't blame them per se. I said that the type dictatorial type of parenting can end up badly.. .and it did. While the 'offer' of condoms were there, the freedom to grow up and go out with young men or get to know them in a healthy environment was not present. Had I been able to GROW from EXPERIENCING relationships prior to reaching the 'freedom of adulthood'.. which is basically what it was.. once I turned 18 yrs I could do what I wanted.. then my choices would have been different. My maturity wasn't in question.. my experience was. Those are two different things entirely...


No you wouldn't, because you didn't. As proven right here. Yes you were 18, but you can't in one breath say they tried to protect you, and let you refuse. Then say they were so strict you had to run off with a 37yr, and it was their fault you were too immature to make the right decision.

First - WHENEVER did I say that (a) I didn't use protection? or (b) ran away with a 37 yrs old.

Your IGNORANCE is again shining through with everything you are writing. You are making ASSumptions of things that didn't occur. You are taking different posts and "filling them in with your own innuendo's and ideas". Quite a FANCIFUL imagination you have there... I have to say. My FATHER tried to PUT ME onto birth control when I was "14 yrs" old... and I refused. I WASN'T ready.. which just goes to show the maturity and intelligence teenagers can have about themselves and their own bodies... lives. I was first active with my ex-HUSBAND - oh yes, I married him -- when I was "18 yrs" old.. HOWEVER, I DID make sure we used protection... and my parents DID know about it.. and I DID NOT "run off" with anybody. .. Another figment of your imagination!

BTW, that's at least the second or third time you've called or implied that I'm immature. At no point have I ever made an attack at "you" personally... I do believe the only "immaturity" being shown here is thine own..


You can't make a point that giving him condoms at 15 was a good or bad idea. He didn't even have an option of using as more than a baloon till he was 18.

Again, another ASSumption on your part. Who said that he didn't have the 'option of using it' until he was 18 yrs old. I don't remember reading that. I DO remember him saying he DIDN'T use it until then... but that doesn't mean that there weren't girls who would have been willing. AND YES, I can say that for myself... I KNOW there were options between the ages of 14 ys and 18 yrs of having sexual intimacy. Just because I chose not to, doesn't mean I didn't. OH wait, and before you 'hammer on' and say, how can I say I wasn't allowed the freedom of exploring a relationship and yet I could have had sex.. Well let's see.. I wasn't allowed to date or to develop a relationship.. have a boyfriend.. but I was allowed to go visit girlfriends and spend the night sometimes. Of coure, they didn't live in a nunnery, hence when we were our walking, going to see a movie, going to the beach, there were always young men around.. and so yes, opportunitities always arose.


I can make judgement on another parents "parenting style", because my judgement is based on my experience. I have raised several kids from babies, teenagers, and every age inbetween. I have a lot of experience in it.

Hmmm... you know what.. my friend is dating this man.. heaven help her. He has seven brothers... they were all raised together.. by their parents. He is a mean abusive s.o.b... and has been in jail a few times. One of the other brothers is gone back to prison for life... and of course, one just managed to keep clean after he was released.. while the fourth brother is smacked out on cocaine and other drugs. That's only the four of the seven, I didn't want to know more. THEY were parented... and I'm sure their parents think they have experience as well.. doesn't mean that they are right or have 'more to say' than someone else who has studied human behaviour. God help us all if you're implying that the only people who know are the people who do.. That's just silly ignorance again.

YES I agree totally that experience counts for a LOT.. but it doesn't count for everything. I don't need to be a fireman to know that it is a dangerous job... I don't need to be a cop to develop ideas about the stress and difficulties that pervades it.. and I don't need to be a doctor to wonder how they manage to 'isolate' their emotions when dealing with sickness and death all the time. If I read up on it, if I talk to them about it, I will learn more.. Of course I will NEVER KNOW what it is exactly like, but I can garner some insight. So while you are correct that being a parent and actually parenting gives a person a hell of a lot of insight, it doesn't mean that every parents opinion outweighs someone who doesn't have kids.. My family doctor has no kids himself.. and I just smile at him while he talks to me of parenting styles and having open communication.. because I do. However, I also know that he offers this advice because he knows of so many parents who do not... and through HIS EXPERIENCE working with hundreds of patients and kids/teenagers.. he's garnered insight on the various issues.


I'm not getting down on you.

Ummm... yeah, you were getting down on me.. lol.. Personally too..


You sound like an excellent mom, for the most part. You sound like you've made mistakes and dealt with them.

Thank you.. I am an excellent mom... and we ALL make mistakes. Anyone who claims they've been a perfect parent is either lying to themselves or needs a reality check. However, I'm not sure which mistakes you are referring to at the moment...


However, you also sound like your bitter at your parents, and the only reason is your own fault, not theirs.

WHERE on earth does this come from?? lmfao.. Nope... no bitterness nor is there anywhere you can say that I am bitter. Stating a reality does not mean that someone is bitter. If I went on and on about how horrible they were... what terrible parents they made... etc.. then yes, perhaps you could make such an ASSumption.. but not in this case. Nice try though.


Since, I don't know the whole story. There's no way to know.

Say WHAT??... maybe you should have started your reply off with that exact statement.. and ran it from there. "I don't know the whole story. There's no way to know".


I tend to agree with most of what you say, out of the three, i'd say your the most rounded. I just think you lean toward being too nice, when I lean more toward being too hard

Hmm... I'd hate to see your reply if you disagreed with me... lol. For the record, I don't lean toward being 'too nice' or 'too hard'. I think a healthy middle field... where there is "FAIRNESS" is what I go after. There are times I have been too nice... and times I have been too hard.. but overall they balance out and as a parent for many years I've grown to the point where I have learned the differences and tend to find the centre..

The great thing is that when I'm too nice or too hard and have to rebalance myself.. I take the opportunity to share with my kids why the change in my actions/reactions. It gives them insight on where I'm coming from... allows them to know why I'm concerned.. and teaches them that nobody is perfect. Which is a very important lesson for all.

I will end this saying I can only assume you decided to 'attack' me because I stood up for ConsciousSoul.. and spoke against what you said. You came at me 'hard'... and then decided to what?.. lighten it up at the end? You are entitled to raise your children anyway you see fit.. and from a lot of what you said I think you know that I'm not pushing any 'underage' sex ideas out into the main stream of thinking. My only suggestion to you is that next time before you jump at someone.. make sure you actually read what has been said and not fill in blanks with stuff that hasn't been said or doesn't exist. It really doesn't wear well on you.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 44
double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 11:56:22 AM

As an after thought.
When you start thinking your kids are going to to do whatever they want no matter what you say. YOU have given up on them. You can't say there's nothing I can do as a parent. There are several things I can do as a parent. You can't know what they are doing all the time true, but you can know what they are doing most of the time. And you can teach them to do the right things in during the time you don't know.

I'm not sure who you are addressing this to or if you're just making a statement. However, I believe giving up on your children is when you believe they aren't sentient enough beings to be communicated with and guided. I do believe you can do a lot as a parent and part of that is talking to them guiding them... the other part is keeping them busy and active in other activities so they don't get bored.. and yes, knowing where they are/what they are doing 'most of the time'. You can also teach them to do the 'right things' during the time you don't know. The problem arises when what you 'believe' is the right thing alters from what they 'believe' is the right thing. Trust me, kids do not always grow up with the same values, ethics, morals, and desires as parents do. Children are not 'mini-me's'. The sooner we realize, as a parent, that our children, especially teenagers, have their own minds and personalities.. have their own thoughts, dreams, and beliefs... the sooner we're able to reach them at a mutually acceptable level. I'm not suggesting being permissive and giving them total freedom. I'm suggesting finding out WHO THEY ARE .. and going from there.

As for the rest of what you are going on with.. I'll step away.. Nobody here has suggested giving the children freedom before they have earned the right.. or shown the maturity.. to have it. There may be different opinions on when that is, or how to go about that... but I haven't heard one parent out here say that they think giving in to the child is what is acceptable. You're preaching to the choir basically.
 sugarstwisted9
Joined: 11/21/2007
Msg: 45
double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 12:27:38 PM
There may be a double standard, I am not sure, I suppose the thing I would be thinking about if I had lesbian daughter would be....Shes not going to get pregnant in there with a girl, rather than in there with a boy...
IMO
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 46
double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:26:48 PM

He might distinguish what is right from what is wrong, according to common standard of behaviors, but is he really able to discriminate between what is wholesome ( = conducive to own's own good) and what is not, at that age?

Yes, he is or she is, in many cases. Of course, it also depends on how the child has been raised and treated prior to reaching that 'sixteen' years of age. Now, if you said a 12 yr old, I might agree with you, but in many cases 16 yr olds are quite aware between what is wholesome for oneself and what is not.

Of course teenagers haven't experienced a whole spectrum of life. Nobody has even when they're in their old ages. They have experienced a lot and gained a ton of knowledge, but again their own lives and experiences have colored and shaped who they have become. I am NOT saying that ALL teenagers or 16 yr olds are able to make complete mature decisions.. but some.. many can. Again, it depends on the parenting style. If as a parent I restrict my child's choices or ability to make decisions so that "my choice/my world" is what they know, then of course they don't have that ability. However, if I slowly allow them the opportunity to make decisions for themselves, depending on what it is and the possible ramifications, alongside with the knowledge of their previous decisions/reactions/choices, then I am allowing growth and maturity to take root in them.


It has to do with sexual inclination, and, possibly, with the desire to experiment with what is out of the norm. Now, this whole thread was based on the assumption that the kid in question is lesbian or gay. How do they know that at 16 years old? I am of the opinion that sexual inclination is a choice, not something people get born with. Therefore in order to say "I am lesbian" one should have tried both. I doubt at 16 yo one has that kind of knowledge and life experience.

First of all, the original topic suggested both -- allowing a child to have sex under one's roof and if as a parent one would allow the other. While the last few posts have been based on heterosexual relationships it isn't meant to diminish homosexual relationship -- we have, most of us, already said that it wouldn't be different for 'us'.

Secondly, you are of the "opinion" that sexual inclination is a choice. That is your "opinion" and you are entitled to it but that doesn't mean your "opinion" is correct. There are studies that have been done and are continuously being done, and a lot of it actually leans towards it being biologically based -- at least SOME homosexuality is being shown to be biologically based and not 'choice'. Did you know that there are even homosexuality among dogs and other animals? How did they make the 'choice'. We studied in neuroscience that sometimes the homosexuality becomes more predominant when there is a population overload and a need to 'restrict' the reproduction of a species. Furthermore, male and female brains have sexually dimorphic areas. This means that they ARE different between the male and female species. How they look under the microscope and how they work. One such organ is the septal nuclei. Now, keep in mind that the comparisons took place after death, as they cannot be tested/checked when a person is alive. In any case, histological staining shows the difference in the amount of said nuclei between the male and the female brains. When the nuclei of the homosexual male was likewise tested, it showed a similar staining pattern to that of the female.

Does this prove that it is biological? Of course not. There are many different explanations that could be provided. It is but one of many 'curiosities' however that are being looked into. On another note, many people who are homosexual/lesbian will tell you that they "knew" they were different and interested in their own sex by the time they were 4-5 yrs of age!! How is it possible that those feelings and desires are 'by experience and choice' at that age? So while I do respect you in your right to your own opinion and while I won't sit up here and CLAIM it is definitely or 'only' biologically induced... I do believe that you may be wrong. Certainly, if it comes to your child - whenever you do have one- you will hopefully look into the matter more carefully rather than run on assumptions. And NO I'm not suggesting you allow your child go experiment with various types of sexuality... I'm just saying that if your child states they believe they are homosexual/lesbian that you take the time to learn about it rather than relying on 'opinions'.

Thirdly, about your statement that you doubt anyone 16 yrs of age have had that experience, I'm afraid you are highly mistaken. The number of teenagers these days who are 'virgins' at that age are very low. It is an unfortunate and sad reality of our present day society... and while I would definitely prefer to see everyone wait until they are 18 yrs of age (of course I do) they don't. I could not BEGIN to tell you the amount of homosexuality/lesbianism that is in the population at my daughters high school - well the one she just graduated from. This high school, however, was 'known' and a safe 'haven' for many such young men and women. The population were not into 'cliques' and were much more accepting of the odd and unusual... probably because it was a Performing Arts school as well. Nevertheless it was astounding over the years to discover who was and who wasn't "homosexual" or "bisexual". Ironically, while I don't believe in stereotyping individuals, many homosexual young men did display more feminine traits. Not all of them, but quite a few.

In any case... and for the record.. a child has developed about 50% of their personality and attitudes by the time they are FIVE years of age. That doesn't mean you can't teach them or guide them, or that the rest of their lives are unimportant. It just means that a huge part of their development has already occurred by that time. Then, by the age of 7 or 8 yrs, the child has developed 70% of their total personality and attitudes. IMAGINE that for a moment -- 70% of their personality (of course minus reasoning skills because they don't have full reasoning abilities at that age) has already been formed within a 7-8 yr old's mind. The rest of the years the teenagers develop reasoning abilities and being able to create ideas and other 'mentally' complex processes. The teenage years are the ones that are most difficult because they are getting so close to being adults and yet they aren't. It is during this time that we are to teach them HOW to use their mind and 'rationalize' or 'reason' their thoughts and experiences. This is why communication is so important and treating them as a 'human being' is likewise important.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 47
double standards
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:59:34 PM
rock_hunter

I am not sure why we are cycling and cycling around the same stupid old thing. I have NEVER said that you shouldn't teach your children that there are consequences to certain actions. I have NEVER said that underage sex should be promoted. And I have NEVER suggested that YOU should encourage your child to have freedom or to take risks. I have only EVER suggested communication.

Now, I have questioned what you would do if your child does have sex before he is of age or even afterwards while living at home. I have questioned you because, in spite of all your great intentions, there is a very good chance that he WILL. As for your comment on being "denied" the right to prepare your child I, personally, have never questioned that right. NOR have I "personally" suggested that someone "give them a room in the house". Actually, I stated I was 'uncomfortable' with that and didn't believe I could do that.

That being said, being a parent who "teaches" their children that certain actions have consequences does not GUARANTEE that they won't still partake in said actions. If they are going to partake will you have, at least, made sure they know that they are to have condoms/birth control? Or are you simply going to say "No way no how, not in my house Mr. or out you get!" and HOPE that it will keep him from becoming sexually active.

And, you know what, your comment that "If a kid is mature enough to have sex, he's mature enough to understand that sex should be delayed until you can cope with the worst-case scenario" is a very nice idea. However, you said your son can wait until he has a roof over his own head. Unfortunately, having a roof over one's head is NOT synonymous with being able to "cope with worst-case scenario".

In the end you and I are NOT in disagreement of what we want for either of our children. Our ways of teaching them and communicating may be at odds, but we both want and hope for our children to wait until they are adults and can handle what might happen.

Oh and while my son may be considered an 'exception'... it's not that simple. He may be ahead, but that doesn't mean that the 'average' or the rest of the pack is 'necessarily' far behind. Think of the normal bell curve. My son might sit closer to the +3 standard deviations from the mean... but there are oh so many who are near him the closer to the mean he gets. Of course, there are as many on the other side as well. Hence, guidelines are meant for the 'masses', but they can be changed or shifted and altered depending on individual circumstances.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 48
view profile
History
double standards
Posted: 8/12/2008 9:56:26 AM
Why are the most prolific writers on this thread both completely off topic and joined the site only a few weeks ago? Start a blog if you think people want to hear about YOUR life.
 Veiled Inveigler
Joined: 7/16/2008
Msg: 49
double standards
Posted: 8/13/2008 10:44:21 PM
^^^^^ talk about exlusivism. Since when does 'time' on the site equal freedom to participate - I never saw it in the rules. As for off-topic, it did go off-topic but the responses were always on-topic with what someone else wrote.

Oh yes, and just because it says that a person is a 'new' member doesn't mean they haven't been on the site previously, deleted their account, and returned again later.

Oh wait, and isn't YOUR comment 'off-topic' in and of itself?
 bizeebee
Joined: 5/22/2007
Msg: 50
view profile
History
double standards
Posted: 8/14/2008 5:12:22 PM
It does not make sense to arbitrarily ban teen age sex in my house.
If "kids" are going to be sexually active, the location does not change any of the risks
and may in fact make it riskier....

I do not mean to imply that we had "open house". We did have open dialogue.
Now on their own at 20 and 25 my older offspring do seem to be making good choices.

BZB
 Henry L. Moon
Joined: 6/1/2008
Msg: 51
double standards
Posted: 8/14/2008 6:49:36 PM
You know what...this isn't even a double standard....I don't care how many excuses you pile up, it changes nothing.....No!
 treefrog1102
Joined: 3/15/2008
Msg: 52
double standards
Posted: 8/17/2008 12:54:07 PM
It wouldn't make a difference to me whether my children we straight or gay my rules are there no matter what. I guess it would depend on age for one, how trusting they are, and what they would be doing. I am pretty set in my ways and they would have to earn the trust to have the door shut. I do understand privacy but it comes with respect and trust. That is why I make it a point to know who my kid friends are, where they are at and when they are coming home. There would also be no difference between the rules for my daughter and my son. The rules apply to both!
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