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Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  > How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?      Home login  
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 Rythmn
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 51
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?Page 3 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
907daydreamer. you are clearly a thoughtful person. no doubt, you are not prejudiced. but if you go from prejudice to "institutionalized racism", we are all racist, with some of us more privileged within that structure than others.

for example, a young dark skinned/african featured child watches tv and she too wants to be "pretty" like brittany (thank G-d mine has gotten through that stage). she doesn't want the pretty african doll you get her. thank G-d for beyonce!

you walk into a restaurant and everyone is the opposite color of you, they stare, you are introverted and feel like an alien! some are even thinking you are attractive (oh yes and then there's "exotic"), but that is not what enters your mind.

you want to date someone, but their parents won't let you. the same "liberal" parents who let you play together before adolescence set in . the boys of your color, see tv also and they want a white girl. the white boys want you sexually. they aren't talking marriage.

you're living in a ghetto because not until the 60's in america could an african american family get a fannie may govt. funded 30 yr. mortage. the banks took your money and redlined your area, so you couldn't even get a mortgage there. your money went to the white people's mortagages. so the gentleman that alluded that he wasnt' around during slavery, better update his historical references. i am sure that his parents were not rejected because of their color.

as a bone, the world war II vets who complained about not having the same mortgage rights, were told to wait a bit--while the feds built them the ghettoes. high rise, cramped quarters, little grass, minimal integrated opportunity "back then". so cedar you would have gotten that job, if only you were older and had lived in those times as an adult.

the schools here are locally funded by real estate taxes. when the budget gets cut, the parents have to chip in. but what if you don't have it? after all you don't even own the house, which is why there are less real estate taxes. despite those supposedly unfair labor laws, the lack of a good education coming from an underfunded school neighborhood, still has you in the lower strata.

i could go on forever. i just want you to FEEL it.

now don't get me wrong. there is a black middle class and some "integrate" into the white "man's" world. but percentage wise and ratio wise, the poverty and lack of education cyle continues. pockets of whiteness with white culture pervades. you cannot pass for white unless you are light skinned. then you've gotta wonder. what is black and what is white. i've said in other posts. man originated in africa, genetically proven. during migration to cold areas, the skin could not absorb enough vitamin D. people paled to get more vitamin D in areas with limited exposure to the sun. it was cold, more clothes. there you have it: RACE. climate adjustment. so clearly it has developed into a whole other issue. a means to scapegoat one group of people versus the "in's" and the "have's". human nature--the bad part of human nature.

so, in the integrated cities, maybe you get past that. or where everyone is liberal. but they really have no clue as to your experiences or maybe your parent's experiences. and you still have to see "white" all around you. white tv, white restaurants, white working environment. now, i've had some similar experiences as a jewish woman. and i've managed to overcome. but i'm an extrovert and i've been exposed to many cultures and ideas. i'm relatively intelligent. i'm a risk taker. not every white person has to be that way to get ahead. but, if you are a minority, then you have to be on the top of the ladder and with all the right traits to get where you are going. not everybody is that strong.

so as long as you and i, see some people who look like us on tv, have privy to live in a good neighborhood, with good schools, and can blend in at work or at school (should we chose to do so), can get a mortgage on a house and at least have OPPORTUNITY that doesn't set us apart, so everyone can't complain that we didn't deserve the job we got or whatever the condition--we are racially priviliged and partake in racist institutions. so that is why we are racist.

cedar you had one instance living in a black person's shoes. you didn't get a job, because you say of your race. make that every day of your life. how would you turn that around? and on a whole other note, look where you ended up. your own business. i have a similar story about not getting what i wanted and ending up with my own business. you can ignore the wrongful accusations towards your feelings coming from someone in england who no doubt has had his own lousy experiences and perhaps several more than you. instead, know what it feels like and use that to help others, who are discriminated against, by making this a less and less racist society--so that the laws at some point in the future, will not even be necessary!

and by the way, i do believe the color issue will die out over time and as people, like it or not (irrespective of your color) become browner and browner. the next big issue will be income, the elimination of the middle class et al. so you young ones, make sure you get an education.

IN THE MEANWHILE, WHEN SOMEONE SAYS "EWWW" WITH RESPECT TO YOUR COLOR, YOU ARE RACIST? I SAY YES. IN THAT INSTANCE SOUNDING PRETTY PREJUDICED AS WELL. BUT WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE WHOLE COMMUNICATION. WAS HIS REMARK SEXIST, IMMATURE, IGNORANT, MAYBE EVEN RACIST IN AND OF ITSELF? I'D SAY YES. A LOT OF THAT ON POF, EVEN AMONGST THE OLD FOGEY'S!

NAMASTE.
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 52
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/19/2007 12:39:44 PM
I was completely blown away when I read your post carlitosinbg.

Basically what I understood you as saying was that the "whites" are the ones oppressing every other race on the planet; only whites are responsible for racism.

Now I sincerely hope that I completely misinterpreted your post, because if thats not a complete and utter pile of dog crap, then I don't know what is. I am a white woman, and I have been a victim of racism in my life(yes I know, POOR ME).

Where I live there is a large amount of native people. I have friends who are native, friends who are white, Jewish, yada, yada, yada. On one occasion I walked into a bar, I was looking for someone that I knew. Withing 30 seconds I was approached by 3 or 4 native women, and they made it very clear that I was not welcome there. I felt very intimidated, and I feared for my personal safety.

So tell me, is that racism?? Did I deserve it simply because I am white, and some of my ancestors are guilty of racism?? No one in my family line personally you understand, but us whites all get lumped into one big group, so I guess we're all to blame for what one does.

Other ethnicities don't appreciate being judged by actions performed by one or two of their race, why is it okay for white people to be judged by ANY and ALL white persons actions?? Do you not see the implications of this? You slam us for stereotyping black people, prejudging based on stories we hear in the news, etc., and then turn around and do the exact same thing.

Am I alone in this, or does anyone else see my point?
 TS_69er
Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 53
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/19/2007 1:38:41 PM
Man o Man, Im tired of this race thing, listen every race has racist, black dont like white, white dont likes blacks, Indian dont like white, white dont like jews, jews dont like palestinians and so on and so on.

In North America the whole equality is a pipe dream, there is no equality anymore, yes blacks in certain areas have it bad, but so other minorities, and is things fair HELL NO, lets look at this for a sec? Blacks have their own TV programs, BET television and some fantastic programs I might add, Asians have their own network, Spanish and so on and so , Now if a white american wants to start White Entertainment Television, he would be labelled as a racist, klan member etc etc etc, where is the equality there?

But I also understand that you cant put certain races together in one school, Palestanians and Jews, Iranians and Iraquis, Protestants and Catholics and so on and so on.

We have black school, Muslim Schools, Asian Schools, Jewish Schools, lord knows if a white anglo wanted to start a white school, guess what ...... call in the Human rights commission

I dont think we will ever combat racism not as long as theyre folks out there that wont let it die.
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 54
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/19/2007 9:14:55 PM
great post, quadmom.

and ebony, i just looked at that link. shocking.

did you hear about the young man, sean bell, who was shot at over 50 times by the NYPD in December? it was similar incident at a night club involving under cover cops. and very much like the murder of amadou diallo, who was shot by the nypd almost as many times.

yes, sadly, racism is alive and well indeed.
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 55
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/21/2007 10:36:19 AM
thanks, physique.

and nikos, i wish there were more people who think the way you do. if only!
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 56
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/23/2007 2:22:06 AM
Do you realize cedar that the reason women and visible minorities including: blacks, natives, handicapped individuals have "receive preferential treatment under this policy to the disclusion of white males"...as you put it, because there was a time in this world where equality didn't have a leg to stand on.

Where women and visible minorities were segregated because of history and what took place.


In the past racism existed across the board....by no mean's was it only whites who were responsible.
So what you are saying is that because in a very different world of the past discrimination occured , so that now it is "ok" to discriminate against people who were yet to be born and had nothing to to do with the past.
That's what you call a blood libel ...it is an extremely unjust practise and it is diametrically opposed to any of the human right's document's you very clumsily touted.
The very foundation of human right's is to treat everyone fairly regardless of race, religion, gender.
It's only in these insane "politically correct" times that anyone would condone fighting racism with more racism .
I think you better read up on basic logic , justice and morality.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 57
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/23/2007 2:49:16 AM
"The difference is that discrimination against white males is legal and the policy of our government.
Discrimintation against visible minorities is illegal and rightfully so."


Like i said cedar, poor you . has the big bad government stepped on your god given rights , please get over yourself, you come across as a poster boy for the KKK


You're from England so no one can fault you for not knowing what your rights are. But here in Canada we do not stereo-type people as "poster boy for the KKK". These sorts of remarks are inappropriate and it is very unfortunate that you feel entitled to make them.



dorionland .....
I appreciate the fact that you had the courage and good sense to recognize and point out the fact that it's not "ok" for a person to use their skin colour as a free pass to unjustly and ingnorantly slander another.I think that was a very racist label that he used!

It pretty much sums up the sickeningly unjust situation we live in where whites are fair game for racial slurs without anyone making as much as a peep about it.
If I had called that poster anything close to what he called me there would have been gasps and hoots and hollers from pretty much every other poster on here....
Whites have been conditoned to think it's ok to be slandered by "victims" ..just like with "affirmitive action " it's ok to discriminate against whites .....because whites have a
big time guilt complex that has been ingrained in them by a lifetime of movies , tv ,books ...etc.
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 58
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/23/2007 9:25:08 AM
cedar77:


I agree.
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 59
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/25/2007 7:49:59 AM
daydreamer, what does it mean to say "i don't participate in it, so i don't expect to PAY for it"??

who is asking you to pay for it? what does it mean for a white american to pay for racism against blacks? or for men to pay for sexism and discrimination against women?

i don't follow...
 T-Gro
Joined: 1/11/2007
Msg: 60
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:33:38 AM
907daydreamer,


Do you date fat guys? or guys covered in tattoo's?
 T-Gro
Joined: 1/11/2007
Msg: 61
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 8:49:13 AM

You tend to have groups of people dressed in white and with pointy hats.. in your garden lighting fires.....


Hmmm you all have pointy hats on, but where is the cake?
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 62
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 2:10:34 PM

You pay for it when someone interprets a harmless statement or action as being racist (I'm not referring to the "eeww" comment that is being discussed here) despite what might have been a completely different intention.


how are you paying for racism against blacks because something you said was taken the wrong way? what's wrong with trying to see it from their point of view, trying to understand why a person might take something the wrong way? there really isn't any risk involved in that at all, it's just about trying have a better understanding of other people's life experiences and sensitivities.


You pay for it if you get passed up for a job that you are better qualified for because of affirmative action.


how often do you think that really happens, daydreamer? i am certain it is quite rare. does it not matter that we have 400 years of history in this country where blacks have been passed over for jobs on the basis of their blackness, which means whites have always had an unfair advantage -- and still do.

i worked in corporate for 16 years before switching careers and i myself witnessed a number of instances of racism, racism that was covered up by all the folks in charge because, guess what? they were all white.

the worst instance of these was when my boss (i was VP, he was an SVP) told me "no more blacks", meaning don't hire anymore blacks.

he was fired three months later because i turned him in for breaking the law.

are we not supposed to care at all, daydreamer, about the continuance of racism in employment in our society? are we supposed to do nothing about it?

affirmative action effects a very very small percentage of new hires or admitted students. and i doubt seriously that you have paid for anything as a result of it.


You pay when you become an instant racist because you have a preference as to what race you date.


how do you pay for racism against another race of people because someone wrongly considers you a racist because you don't date black guys?

how are you paying for ANYTHING when that happens?

where do you get the idea in the first place that as a white woman you even have the capacity to pay for racism against blacks?


Personally, I think acknowledgement of race on any level is racism.


but how can you not see the blind ignorance of a statement like this? are you not aware that there are people who are reminded of their race every day of their lives? every time they go for a job or go to school or go to a store and are followed around by the security guard? are you not aware that therefore racism is being acknowledged by people all the time?

or is it only a problem to acknowledge racism is you are black?


Skin color is just another characteristic that has a small contribution to who you are.


no my dear, for some people (and not by choice) race is the primary factor that defines who they are -- particularly in a place like the united states.


Not being eligible for a job or a scholarship or a loan based solely on any aspect of a person that they are unable to control is wrong, no matter what the behavior of their family may have been prior to their birth.


but affirmative action is NOT about how my white parents or grandparents or ancestors treated black people in past times. it is about social inequity, it is about a racist social system that kept people of color out of decent well paying jobs and good schools for many many decades, a social historical fact which has made it nearly impossible for many blacks to pursue and attain the american dream.


I don't think that there is a person among us who is deserving of a privilege if they didn't earn it.


i agree. i also do not feel that as americans it is appropriate for us to forget the history of this country that has led us to the present moment and pretend that problems of the past did not create the problems of the present.

"earning" a privilege is not a neutral concept. it is not simple. it is highly political -- many many white people got things they did not earn, getting something because you happen to have race privilege (that is whiteness in a white dominated place) does not constitute earning it.

many things have come to me in my life in part because i am white.

as white people, we really need to get real and have the courage to admit these things to ourselves.

many black americans have gone to look at apartments and been turned away because they are black.

many have gone for jobs and been turned away because they are black (i have been a personal eye witness to this multiple times -- and no, not many years ago, in the 1990's in corporations you'd never believe were discriminating).

these are experiences i have never had and nor will i ever have them. my race never functions to work against me in the united states. it might if i were in some other place, but not here. not anymore at least.

sure, i've worked hard. sure, i'm good. sure, i'm smart. sure, i have deserved the things i've gotten.

but i am also aware of the way that my race has functioned not only to protect me but also to privilege me.

for me to deny the way that my race has functioned to grant me privileges i did not earn means that i am in denial about the true course of my life.

and i think it's important not to be.

cheers!
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 63
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 3:45:13 PM
how often do you think that really happens, daydreamer? i am certain it is quite rare. does it not matter that we have 400 years of history in this country where blacks have been passed over for jobs on the basis of their blackness, which means whites have always had an unfair advantage -- and still do.


Discrimination due to "affirmitive action" is not rare.....it is very common...but get's very little press and it is often insidious.

Irish were discriminated against for centuries by the British . Slavics were discriminated against in Europe on such a wide scale that the term "slave" has it's origin's there.There was a huge white slave trade in Europe due to Asian aquirers.
There have been dominant culture's discriminating against other cutlures and races for all of history. The more successful the culture the more likely is the charge of discrimination ....but the less successful culture's were certainly just as racist if not more so.

To portray one race as being "special" in term's of victimhood is demeaning and patronizing to that race....you make them out to be "special need's"..it is destructive.
To fight racism with more racism is very wrong ...simple as that.
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 64
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:00:50 PM
no -- affirmative action is quite rare indeed. even at its highest, the percentage of students or employees a school or employer will set aside for minority applicants is 10%. many times it is lower than that, not to mention that many companies and schools don't have ANY such minimum. so, for you to allege that it is VERY common can't possibly be true. it can only occur a maximum of 10% of the time and that is only in those institutions that have such a policy. which means it is quite rare.

and of course certain races HAVE BEEN specially victimized -- the slave trade was something that effected africans disproportionately.

this doesn't make them special needs people, it simply means that historically they have been brutalized, and later discriminated against.

these are simple facts of history.

the fact that the irish have been discriminated against and of course colonized by the british is not in dispute. it is very true. part of the effect of those historical inequalities has left irish people in situations like african americans. in northern ireland right now catholics are discriminated against in employment and housing, it is a continuous problem and i am very familiar with the mistreatment of irish people historically.

but it also has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 65
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:08:06 PM
for me to deny the way that my race has functioned to grant me privileges i did not earn means that i am in denial about the true course of my life.


Speak for yourself .....I or anyone I know have never had any advantage due to being white....quite the opposite.

I think that my culture/race has been extremely successful ...due to the hard work and abilities of my ancestors.
Just like say : Japanese enjoy a high standard of living....

I think you need to get over your media inspired guilt complex...it is not healthy.
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 66
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:16:50 PM
What is the difference between my obligation to see where they are coming from and their inability to see that I am not a racist? I am supposed to step back and consider their perspective in the face of being accused of something that violates everything I believe in? Oh, I get it, a bunch of people did some really effed up stuff before I was born so now it's okay to assume that I'm racist based on what? My skin color? Do you see the irony in this?


yes, i think i do see the irony in that. but why does it make you so angry for someone to misunderstand you? why not just explain, "oh no, sorry, i didn't mean it that way. what i meant was..." do you get that angry if someone misunderstands you on some other score? do you speak of it in the same way?

i am sure you have sensitivities about certain things and that sometimes you misunderstand other people -- isn't it nicer if they simply explain themselves rather than alleging that you are making them "pay" for something they didn't do simply because you misunderstood the intent of their words? why the anger? why the language of "oh you're making me pay for history"? -- i just don't get that.


I can't hide that I'm a woman and women make less on the dollar than men. Do you think I'm going to let that stop me? What is the reason for anyone else to let it stop them?


but what you say here suggests that you perceive that there are people who are "letting" discrimination that might effect them stop them? who is doing that? and how do you know they are doing that? if you have been called a racist by someone in the past, it might just be because of an assumption like this.

the vast vast majority of my students are african american, i have taught thousands and thousands of black students, i have many black friends, i went to high school with black Catholic girls -- how much experience, daydreamer, do you have with black people? on what basis are you assuming that black people are letting discrimination stop them?

and no, the wage gap should not stop you. it hasn't stopped me. and it hasn't stopped many many many many BLACK women either.

and yes, had my boss said, "no more women" (which he wouldn't have because after all, i am a woman, he said "no more blacks" and felt safe saying that because he ASSUMED, based on my whiteness, that he and i are on the same page -- that in other words i'd go along with his racism, which means in his experience racism is SO common that he can count on it, even when he doesn't know!) i would have turned him in in exactly the same way i did -- why? because it is a violation of equal employment opportunity act passed in 1964, Title 7 of the US Civil Rights Act.

i am sorry if you took the tone of my message the wrong way. be well!
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 67
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:18:52 PM
no, my friend cedar, i am not speaking of myself or for myself. i am speaking about the way whiteness functions in this country in general.

and no, it's not media inspired in any way. in fact, if i were working from the media?

i'd be expressing views much more like your own.
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 68
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:21:07 PM
and of course certain races HAVE BEEN specially victimized -- the slave trade was something that effected africans disproportionately.

True ... in hollywood ....but in reality....
There are no special victims and African's certainly were not the greatest in term's of number's .

if i were working from the media?

i'd be expressing views much more like your own.

^
With that , I seriously question your grasp on reality...my friend merf (-;

We don't agree ...that's ok . You seem to have your mind made up....it's your mind and it's your right.
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 69
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 4:38:30 PM
cedar, you have much to learn about history, my friend, particularly about africa. too bad. :-)

daydreamer, and anyone else interested, please read the following, it's just a few pages:

http://www.lamission.edu/sociology/mekelburg/SOC2%5CWhite_Privilege_handout.pdf

daydreamer, it might help you understand what i'm saying, and perhaps what you're saying too. :-) (i think it might be an excerpt from the full article, but it's enough.)

i'd still really like for you to answer my question: who's letting discrimination stop them?

and by the way, i don't think we're off topic at all. i think we're right on the money.

good day all!
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 70
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How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 5:26:53 PM
cedar, you have much to learn about history, my friend, particularly about africa. too bad. :-)

Your link is to a marxist white hate group.
Actually, I am no expert, but I have some knowledge of true history ..I ignore "hollywood" history...my friend (-;

Here's an article on modern history as it continues to the present in Africa , don't expect any hollywood movies made about the racially motivated murder and terror inflicted white's in Africa though....


Mugabe and his ruling ZANU-PF party have come under siege by the opposition party, the Movement for Democratic Change, or MDC. The MDC wants to impeach Mugabe for his ruination of Zimbabwe. In response, Mugabe has recently threatened to put Smith on trial for genocide.

Smith, who is now in his 80s, still runs a farm in Zimbabwe. To refer to Smith as a survivor would be an understatement. He is a former fighter pilot who was shot down over Italy during World War II. There, he rallied a group of Italian partisans to fight against fascism. Smith is one of only 70,000 whites left in Zimbabwe -- out of a total population of just under 13 million. Under the Smith regime, there were over 330,000 whites living in Rhodesia. Though they are few in number, those opposing Mugabe's rule are gaining ground.

For example, during the recent United Nations Millennium Summit, Mugabe was served with a summons in New York. The dictator is being sued by Maria Stevens of Sweden, whose husband, David, was abducted from a police station, shot and killed last April, allegedly by Mugabe's backers. The lawsuit asks for $400 million in damages for the killing of whites in Zimbabwe. Stevens, who must now raise her children alone, claims that she knows who her husband's killer is. The couple had shared their profits with the blacks who worked on their farm.

Stevens has pointed out that the first person to die in Mugabe's anti-white terror campaign was not a white, but a black policeman trying to stand up to Mugabe's henchmen.

"The Commercial Farmer's Union, the churches, banks -- every business should have gone to Mugabe when the farm invasions started and said, 'Stop now or we burn our tobacco crops, so you lose as well as us,'" she stated.

Stevens has an ally in Adella Chiminya, whose husband Tichaona was burned alive in his car. Chiminya says she will testify on behalf of Stevens when she returns to Zimbabwe, even if she is arrested. Tichaona Chiminya was likely targeted because he was the campaign manager for Morgan Tsvangirai, who ran for the MDC in opposition to Mugabe.

Stevens and other victims of Mugabe's policies have been assisted by the Human Rights Forum. It is the group's hope that judgments against Mugabe will lead him to lose his overseas assets which, as mentioned, are considerable. Most of these assets are held by a complicated web of companies registered in the Isle of Man and the British Virgin Islands. In 1999, a group called Transparency International ranked Zimbabwe as the 45th most corrupt regime on Earth -- beating out Russia and Nigeria.

Any judgment made against Mugabe in New York will make it extremely difficult for him to travel abroad to speak at the U.N., where he recently boasted of his actions against the white farmers to a cheering audience. Damage claims against Mugabe can be enforced in any number of nations with international bodies, including Switzerland, the Netherlands, New York and elsewhere.

The case against Mugabe is growing, with more than 1,000 crimes ranging from beatings to murder to torture documented by the Human Rights Forum. One crime that was thwarted involved Blessing Chabundo, who defeated Mugabe's right-hand man, Justice Minister Emmerson Mnangagwa, in the recent elections. After the election, Chabundo's house was burned down and he was covered with petrol to be burned alive. Chabundo escaped death, however, when the matches of his attackers failed to light and he was able to run away to safety. Mugabe later appointed Mnangagwa as the new speaker of the parliament.


Zimbabwe farmer Iain Kay was severely beaten earlier this year by government-supported squatters and "war veterans."

James Rubin, acting U.S. State Department spokesman when the farm invasions began, said "We are calling very strongly on President Mugabe to accept responsibility to uphold the law and to uphold the law for all Zimbabweans. We are deeply troubled and deplore President Mugabe's suggestion that white farmers are the enemies of the people of Zimbabwe. That is utter nonsense."

Since the invasions began, Rubin has resigned his post and currently lives in Great Britain with his wife, CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour.

The colonial spirit

Alan Harvey, the leader of the UK-based Springbok Club and editor of the South African Patriot in Exile newsletter, told WorldNetDaily, "It is rare for an octogenarian to be able to put the fear of God into a tyrant, but that is what Ian Douglas Smith certainly seems to have done to comrade Mugabe. The latest rantings -- that all those who fought for Western civilization during the Rhodesian Bush War will be charged with 'genocide' and that Ian Smith in particular will be arrested on these grounds when he returns to Zimbabwe -- were not only the words of a megalomaniac, but also show clearly what a total illusion all the talk of 'reconciliation' is as far as African tyrants are concerned. Mr. Smith has laughed off all these lunatic ravings and, indeed, has dared Mugabe to arrest him and put him on trial, saying that he would welcome the opportunity of having his say in court. He has good reason to be unafraid of these threats, as it is clearly a sign of just how unhinged the dictator has become as his own imminent removal from power becomes ever more certain."

Harvey continued: "There is a maxim that a cornered rat is the wildest rat, and this certainly seems to be the case here. By standing up to the tin-pot dictator Mugabe, at the age of 81 [Smith] could well act as a catalyst to hasten [Mugabe's] downfall and to usher in a far less oppressive regime. It may not herald the rebirth of Rhodesia, but that area of land between the Limpopo and the Zambezi may well be taking a giant step on the road back to civilized rule. Smith's brave defiance in his 80s may well go down in history as an even greater achievement than his inspirational leadership during the glorious days of the Unilateral Declaration of Independence."

Now that Mugabe has seized over 1,000 farms, and plans to take over 2,000 more -- over 66 percent of the total farmland -- it would appear that the future looks volatile at best. Perhaps famine may come to Zimbabwe, which would require Western aid that may or may not be forthcoming. Yet for the MDC, it would seem there is reason for a positive outlook on the future, despite Mugabe's "victory" in recent elections.

The South African government is working with some of Mugabe's more intelligent and pragmatic cabinet staff -- men like finance minister Simba Moyo -- in an attempt to rescue Zimbabwe from catastrophe. The courage of the MDC has also been an inspiration to freedom-loving people the world over -- at least those who are following the complicated saga unfolding in southern Africa, the UK and elsewhere.

"They [the MDC] performed prodigies of heroism which recall the Christian martyrs throughout the ages," said Rev. Arthur Lewis, director of the Rhodesian Christian Group. Not to be overlooked is the fact that no less than four white members of Parliament were elected by black constituents in the recent elections.

Adds Kinchen: "Mugabe blames colonialism for Rhodesia-Zimbabwe's problems. He is a liar and a fool. Look at Singapore and Malaysia -- they were British colonies and today are very wealthy. He is a kleptocratic leader. Mugabe says 'I am no Idi Amin,' but I say he is far worse. Amin and others of his ilk -- they knew no better. Mugabe is a genius of wickedness, trained by Jesuit missionaries and a college graduate with a degree in economics. He's had Harvard-trained economists tutor him. He's been told to break up state monopolies. He knows better, yet he has deliberately destroyed the nation with his ruinous and corrupt policies."

Mugabe's economic policies have indeed been disastrous. Inflation is at record levels, the currency has been debased, exports are down, agricultural production is in a freefall, foreign investment and tourism have plummeted. Almost 30 percent of all adults have HIV-AIDS by some estimates. Infant morality rates are increasing, as are crime and unemployment -- 60 percent of adults living in the cities have no job. The Zimbabwean dollar is trading at Z$60 to US$1. It was Z$8 to US$1 in 1995. Domestic interest rates on treasury bills are at 70 percent. Mugabe's bloated civil service and military rolls have taken up a huge percentage of the government's budget.

Additionally, over 400,000 black farm workers have lost their jobs in the recent farm invasions -- led by "war veterans" of Mugabe's army. Most of these "veterans" were children or not even born during the Rhodesian Bush War. Also, as a result of the invasions, bank loans to white farmers are going unpaid and investment and reinvestment in the farming sector of the nation's economy is almost non-existent. Zimbabwe's agricultural extension services have been rendered obsolete for lack of funding. Still, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund have continued to fund Mugabe's economic policies -- which have led Zimbabwe to have the lowest economic growth rate in all of Africa.

The Rhodesian remnant

There is still -- after two decades of Mugabe's rule -- a "remnant" of Rhodesians living in exile who are committed to battling Mugabe.

They may not have the connections or business acumen of the pro-Mugabe whites, but what they lack in finances they make up in passion. They include Lewis, Dennis Walker and groups like The Rhodesian Christian Group, Rhodesians Worldwide, Northern Rhodesians Worldwide and several others.


British Member of Parliament, Roger Gale

Other strong voices against Mugabe come from men like British Member of Parliament Roger Gale of North Thanet, who told WorldNetDaily, "Blair's foreign policy, from dealing with Kosovo to Mugabe, is a total shambles."

However, British Home Secretary Jack Straw has promised to offer 20,000 visas to white Zimbabweans fleeing Mugabe's reign of terror.

Another tiger in the corner of the Rhodesians-in-exile movement is Geoff Cook, a former intelligence officer who served in the war against Mugabe's campaign to install a Marxist regime in Rhodesia. Cook now resides in London.

"In the intelligence corps, we found Cuban and North Korean involvement with the Mugabe terrorists," Cook told WorldNetDaily. "I learned that the Cubans and North Koreans, along with Red China, were arming Mugabe's terrorists -- the ZANLA-PF. There was another group, ZIPRA, that was being armed by the Russians."

Ethiopia, Algeria and Libya also aided Mugabe in his terrorist Bush War, which began in earnest in 1971.

Cook also pointed to the irony in the fact that Rhodesians volunteered, along with the Afrikaners, to fight and die in the Korean War, yet South Korea voted at the U.N. for anti-Rhodesian and anti-South African sanctions.

"Is that any way to thank us for the sacrifices our people made on behalf of South Korea?" he asked rhetorically.

Cook's wife, Jean, who helped him run their farm in Rhodesia, feels that the U.N.-sponsored sanctions were "the best thing that ever happened to Rhodesia." She also lauded the collective spirit of the Rhodesians now living in exile.


Outside London's parliament building on U.N day. Both the U.N and the UK have supported Mugabe.


"After sanctions, we no longer could import anything vital to the war effort. So we set up factories to make things ourselves. I, myself, worked on some important projects. We had blueprints to build locomotives, for example. The drawings had certain parts blacked out for secrecy, but we knew what they were," Mrs. Cook said.

Speaking of the differences between Rhodesia and South Africa during the heyday of the apartheid era, Mrs. Cook said, "We had a different spirit in Rhodesia. We had better relations between the whites and the blacks. ... I feel that the racial problems in Rhodesia could have been resolved if not for Mugabe's communist overthrow of the nation."

Added Mr. Cook, "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother of Britain is over 100 years old now and she still refers to Zimbabwe as 'Rhodesia.' She had traveled to Rhodesia earlier in her life for the opening of the Cariba Dam."

Mr. Cook, like so many other Rhodesian expatriates, believes that the use of the term Rhodesia is a moral decision, striking to the core of what he sees as the essential difference between European Christian civilization and the Marxist anarchy that has befallen Zimbabwe under Mugabe's rule.

"We fought hard and well in the anti-terrorist campaign that was called the Rhodesian Bush War," said Mr. Cook.

"We were organized in small units in the Rhodesian Light Infantry and Intelligence Corp. Sometimes there would be only three of us -- a driver, myself and a machine gunner."

Added Mrs. Cook: "I married my husband in 1976. But six months later, because of the strain of the war, he was a different man. His health suffered and he was upset and irritable because of the evil things, the killings he saw out in the war zone. He had many nightmares. It was a very difficult time for him and for our family."

Getting the message out

After the Rhodesian campaign ended with the overthrow of the white, anti-communist government, Mr. Cook was offered a position in the South African Defense Force. He refused, despite the fact that he would have been able to keep the same rank.

While some Rhodesian soldiers who fought against Mugabe were imprisoned -- and remain imprisoned today in horrible conditions -- the Cooks eventually made it back to England. Once there, they began the process of helping set up the Rhodesians Worldwide group. The organization serves as a social organization and as a means to help raise funds for needy Rhodesians trapped in Zimbabwe -- or those seeking to escape Mugabe's nation and come to the UK in search of a new life.

"We have barbecues. We have Internet links, a magazine and social get-togethers. Then there is the remembrance service for the Rhodesians who fought and died in the wars. We are now setting up a scholarship fund to help needy students -- my husband will be handling that personally. But still, we have to be careful in our advertising. When I put up an ad at the supermarket, I can't use the word 'Rhodesia.' It has to be worded in such a way that people will remember the good times of Rhodesia -- the food, the land and other things -- and then understand what our group is. It is almost like an intelligence operation," said Mrs. Cook.

"And when we wanted to put an ad in a large newspaper about Rhodesians Worldwide, the vast majority of papers in the UK refused to print the ad. Can you imagine this?" asked Mrs. Cook. "Still, we must help everyone we can. I can't tell you how many phone calls we get from people saying, 'I am escaping from Zimbabwe, I just landed at Heathrow Airport. Can you assist with somewhere to stay or help us get some work?' And, of course, we try and help everyone. Because if we don't, then who will?"

"There is very little available information in the public domain on Mugabe," added Mr. Cook. "I am absolutely appalled at the current plight of the white farmers in Rhodesia. In Yugoslavia and Kosovo, the British government bent over backwards to help the victims in that war. Personally, I feel very bitter that the British government gave no help to the Rhodesian farmers. Over 90 percent of the white farmers in Rhodesia have British roots going back in some cases to the 1930s and 1940s. More Rhodesians fought in World War II per capita than any other country in the British Empire."

Speaking about the lack of political will in the British government to take on Mugabe -- even among the Conservative Party -- Mr. Cook said, "Mr. Hauge, the Conservative Party leader, is more concerned with internal problems. Mugabe's mass murders of the white Rhodesian farmers are not front-page news in England. Since there are no big headlines, he feels there is nothing to make a fuss over."

Another Rhodesian war veteran, Roger Greenfield of Liverpool, told WorldNetDaily, "When Mugabe struck down the Parliamentary system of Zimbabwe in 1987, the British government overlooked the fact that he was, in fact, making himself 'president for life.' The official government line was that it was not 'an erosion of democracy.' It's insane. Furthermore, the massacre of the white farmers in Rhodesia-Zimbabwe is a bad omen. I predict you will see Mexicans killing whites in Texas, Arizona and California. Then you will see it happening in Australia as well. It's already happening in South Africa under the communist ANC, as well as in Kenya."

The Cook's children and their grandchild are currently trapped in Zimbabwe on their farm, wondering if Mugabe's henchmen will come to take over their land, or worse.

Said Mrs. Cook: "Crops are rotting. Fruit is rotting on the trees. They did not spray this year because of the turmoil. All that I want is for my children to be able to escape Zimbabwe and find work on a farm overseas in the field of agricultural engineering in either America, Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand -- anywhere. Running a farm is not easy, but our children have many skills in agriculture.

"We have tried our best to help others in need. Now we need a miracle ourselves."
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 71
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History
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 6:30:36 PM
the link i posted was to an article that is very often taught in universities across this country by sociologist and women's studies scholar, Peggy McIntosh. i have taught it many times. i also read it in an undergraduate class when i was doing my BA.

it is one of the works that prompted the development of a new academic discipline, in some universities referred to as critical race studies. lots of good work has been done in that area since the publication of McIntosh's essay.

you should read it, cedar, instead of all this other nonsense you post. it's quite interesting, in fact.

good gawd, is there any way at all that one can actually have an intelligent conversation about RACE on POF? i think not... sigh.

be well everybody! :-)
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 72
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History
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 6:40:41 PM
the link was to an article that is very often taught in universities across this country by sociologist and women's studies scholar, Peggy McIntosh. i have taught it many times.

yes ....like I said ..it is a marxist white hate group...I recently did some part time courses in university ....they have become extremely left wing and have been for sometime....you have to understand the who , what , why and how of marxism.....but it's way too involved and it would take alot of re-thinking and it's hard to break a lifetime of conditioning. Understanding the article on Africa I posted above might be a start... but...It's better to work with commonly accepted ground.


you should read it, cedar, instead of all this other nonsense you post. it's quite interesting, in fact.

Nonsense? ....hmmm .....no, it's not nonsense .
 molly__blooming
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 73
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History
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 6:43:53 PM
wow, what drugs are you on, cedar?

marxist white hate group? they hate whites or they are white?

better question: WHY AM I TALKING TO A JACKASS LIKE YOU?

why am i always so unwilling to give up on my belief in the goodness of people?

in their intelligence?

clearly you have neither!!!!

i am a college professor, bro, and i do not appreciate the insults!

go to school, cedar, get yerself some edjikation -- until you do that? i'm not talkin to ya!
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 74
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History
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 6:59:04 PM
Yeah....that's right ...whites are very capable of spreading white hate...I mean that in a broad sense of the term. Have you heard of white guilt?...sometimes to relieve this people actually go quite the opposite way.
In many institution's a political policy has been set where people know that political correctness get's them advancement and political incorrectness get's them in trouble ...I think most would agree on this.

I think there's "education" and then there is knowledge and truth ...the two are not necessarily the same.....as pointed out in my above statement.

AAhhhh....you're not talking to me...ok friend (-;...it was a slice...we disagree ...no big deal .....that's what freedom of thought and expression in general is all about ...this isn't Zimbabwe!!....yet.
 NancyC123
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 75
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 2/27/2007 7:06:41 PM
The comment simply means that she doesn't find black people attractive in the romantic sense. Of course the whole "ewwww no" thing might be a bit extreme and she COULD be a racist but you can't really tell with just that one statement. At least that's how I'm viewing it.
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