Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Health Wellness  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 47
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?Page 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
More people die from Dr prescribed drugs than you want to know.
About every 19 minutes............ S Gupta

Never said ALL people in nursing homes or over 65 are on warfarin..I said its rampantly over used.


, usually aspirin and clopidogrel is used, not Warfarin.

possibly, it was an example of what I consider dangerous over natural if natural can be used.

And yet ginger does the same thing as aspirin in therapeutic doses with out the bad side effects to the stomach and liver ect.
70 billion dollars in pharmaceuticals have failed to effectively balance eicosanoids.

NSAIDS could be completely avoided in almost every case of arthritis/inflammation pain and blood thinning along with other herbs (diet) minerals and spices (but there is no $$$$$ to be made because they cant patent it) IF given the correct therapeutic dose.
People should not dose themselves or stop medication for any severe blood pressure/clotting issues but talk to someone that knows what they are doing other than give a drug if that is their choice to do so.
..
What we need to heal is on this earth naturally for almost every known ailment man has. Probably all.
Some Drs know this.
Of course the quality of the product is imperative to know.


Most have not been educated in the practice unless they want to become an outcast among the medical politics that goes on in a reg medical practice...malpractice is also a factor.


The most common indication for Warfarin is to prevent strokes in people with Atrial Fibrillation.

^^^^^^^^^Funny I have it and have worked with my doctors, done my own research and discussed with them every alternative ( been involved in my own health) and keeping my blood pressure on the low side 70/59 is common and lower and also thin my blood naturally. It has been very easy but time consuming with experimentation monitored monthly for a while by a Physician.

It is benign but can frighten you when you feel it.


I also beleive there are times when an Rx is better than no Rx in some cases.Usually due to not having or taking the time and money to find an alternative.
Natural remedies ( the thread) takes time in many cases and some rx is needed until what works can be effective.



Suggested reading( just a few)
P Schulick
J Bacon
KC Srvasta
D Flynn
S Qureshi
J Yamahara
RValentine
D Chopra
L Dossey
R Gladstar
B Griggs
J Kloss
V Lad
J A Mcdougal
M Murray
J Pizzorno
D Ornish
HCA Vogel
A Weil
R F Weiss
J Duke
M Bricklin
S Feldman
L lear
J I Rodale
M walker

None of us know everything, none of us have every answer..but we are obligated IMO to get informed as much as we can.
Most physicians are not your father, brother, uncle, husband,wife, sister and have no vested interest in you living the best life you can.

Best to have a great relationship with a great doctor open to new ideas/alternative therapies.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/13/2012 7:26:50 AM

And yet ginger does the same thing as aspirin in therapeutic doses with out the bad side effects to the stomach and liver ect.


If you want to make your platelets less sticky after a heart attack or stroke, you can either take something that has a proven therapeutic benefit, or one without. If you choose ginger, what dose of ginger do you have to take to get a mortality benefit? Does anyone know?


Funny I have it and have worked with my doctors, done my own research and discussed with them every alternative ( been involved in my own health) and keeping my blood pressure on the low side 70/59 is common and lower and also thin my blood naturally. It has been very easy but time consuming with experimentation monitored monthly for a while by a Physician.


It probably makes little difference to you. From what you've disclosed on your profile and on this forum, you have a low CHADS2 score (or whatever scoring system is used in your part of the world) in terms of stroke risk from AF. Unless you tell us you've had a stroke, diabetes or heart failure, warfarin is pointless.


Best to have a great relationship with a great doctor open to new ideas/alternative therapies..


There is nothing new about altertnative therapies. But if they're proven to work, it wouldn't be called alternative therapy, it would be called medicine.
 activemelaney
Joined: 9/8/2012
Msg: 49
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/13/2012 9:18:52 AM

There is nothing new about altertnative therapies. But if they're proven to work, it wouldn't be called alternative therapy, it would be called medicine.


So true.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 50
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/13/2012 3:42:47 PM

But if they're proven to work, it wouldn't be called alternative therapy, it would be called medicine.

^^^^^^^^^
Wrong
"So Let food be thy medicine" is something some idiot said.
"First do no harm " should be thrown out the window?


If a drug company cant make money on it then its called dangerous, careless or quackery.



If you choose ginger, what dose of ginger do you have to take to get a mortality benefit? Does anyone know?

^^^^^^^
You may want to look at one of the first studies done by Cornell Med School published in the New England Journal Of Medicine in 1980
Danish and Indian studies 14 years later showed as little as 5 grams of powdered ginger taken for only 7 consecutive days significantly counteracted platelet aggregating properties and compared to garlic was much more effective.
Japans did a study over a 15 year period.. Australia


I suggest if you really care and aren't just wanting to argue then READ/RESEARCH for years as others have.


Unless you tell us you've had a stroke, diabetes or heart failure, warfarin is pointless.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
No one said anyone told me that I needed warfarin.



Good Lord
Your underoos aren't worn out yet grasshopper.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 51
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/13/2012 5:02:40 PM

"First do no harm " should be thrown out the window?


Why would you want to throw that out the window?


If a drug company cant make money on it then its called dangerous, careless or quackery.


There's not much money to be made from Warfarin, and we've always known it's dangerous. That's why doctors balance the risks vs the benefits when prescribing it.


You may want to look at one of the first studies done by Cornell Med School published in the New England Journal Of Medicine in 1980
Danish and Indian studies 14 years later showed as little as 5 grams of powdered ginger taken for only 7 consecutive days significantly counteracted platelet aggregating properties and compared to garlic was much more effective


Sure, give us the references. How big were the studies and what was the level of evidence? What were the numbers needed to treat? Also 1980 was over 30yrs ago...if it was so effective, have they published any randomised controlled trials since then? How strong was the effect?

A quick medline search shows that various herbal supplements have been tested for their anti-platelet effects, but none have shown a large enough benefit to be used therapeutically. And of those, people have been trying to isolate the active agents so that they don't have to eat several kg ginger or garlic every day (imagine their breath)- they can take whatever active biopharmaceutical that has the platelet effect.

Now if you think about it, that's already been done. Salicylic acid/aspirin is found in willow bark and Warfarin was originally isolated from fermented clover. So instead of giving willow bark and fermented clover to patients, they are given the active agent, with a specific dose, in a form more palatable than drinking several litres of willow bark tea. Hence what I stated earlier- if you isolate the active bio-pharmaceutical from ginger/garlic etc etc, and proved it worked to reduce mortality/morbidity, then it's no longer alternative therapy. It's called medicine.


No one said anyone told me that I needed warfarin.


You said you had AF, and you did fine without needing to be on Warfarin. I was merely telling you why you don't need it in the first place.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 52
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 4:21:11 AM
I have taken the time to research and read articles from Harvard and Cornell among others.
Dozens of books on herbs/spices,roots and rhizomes

NOT on the internet.
You do the same if you are interested.

Why would a drug company or school spend millions to study yet again what they have already shown yet can't patent it and get their money back?

But I'll humor you once more and forgive me if I dont site "studies" that its been used for THOUSANDS of years to aid people in getting well and healthy

Cancer - Ginger causes ovarian cancer cells to die, in a April 2006 University of Michigan cell study.

Motion Sickness and Nausea – March 1982, a prominent British medical magazine, The Lancet, reported that a study comparing Dramamine, a popular motion sickness medicine, to ginger found ginger twice as effective.

Cancer - a March 1996 study at Case Western Reserve showed that rats given ginger and then subjected to chemicals that induce cancer had a significant reduction in cancer than the control rats.

Arthritis - Trials in Denmark showed that more than three quarters of those tested experienced relief in pain and swelling after incorporating ginger in the diet. Other conditions associated with inflammation are asthma, painful menstruation and migraines. The Danish studies, also reported, show an amazing side effect the usual winter colds disappeared.

****Platelet Aggregation – in 1981 reported in the New England Journal of Medicine, a Cornell study observed that ginger inhibited the aggregation of platelets suggesting that ginger may have a place in the diets of arteriosclerosis or coronary artery disease patients.

Digestive Aid – Ginger has traditionally used as a digestive aid. It was the Alka-Seltzer of Roman Empire. In many cultures ginger was given as a digestive with meals. In Colonial times candied ginger was given after meals and was the number one candy in America.

Weight Loss – Preliminary research reported in the International Journal of Obesity in October 1992, shows that ginger boasts weight loss by calorie burning. By measuring a complicated series of reactions in rats, researchers found that ginger made the tissues use more energy.

Anti-inflammation

Arthritis Rheum 2001 Nov;44(11):2531-8 – Effects of a ginger extract on knee pain in patients with osteoarthritis
Osteoarthritis Cartilage 2000 Jan;8(1):9-12 – A randomized, placebo-controlled, cross-over study of ginger extracts and ibuprofen in osteoarthritis

*****Anti-blood clotting

Thromb Res 2001 Sep 1;103(5):387-97 – Gingerols and related analogues inhibit arachidonic acid-induced human platelet serotonin release and aggregation
Indian J Med Sci 2001 Feb;55(2):83-6 – Ginger, fat and fibrinolys
Ali BH, Blunden G, Tanira MO, Nemmar A. Some phytochemical, pharmacological and toxicological properties of ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe): a review of recent research. Food Chem Toxicol. 2008;46(2):409-20.

Altman RD, Marcussen KC. Effects of a ginger extract on knee pain in patients with osteoarthritis. Arthritis Rheum. 2001;44(11):2531-2538.

Apariman S, Ratchanon S, Wiriyasirivej B. Effectiveness of ginger for prevention of nausea and vomiting after gynecological laparoscopy. J Med Assoc Thai. 2006;89(12):2003-9.

Awang DVC. Ginger. Can Pharma J. 1992:309–311.

Bertolucci LE, DiDario B. Efficacy of a portable acustimulation device in controlling seasickness. Aviat Space Environ Med. 1995;66(12):1155-1158.

Bhandari U, Sharma JN, Zafar R. The protective action of ethanolic ginger (Zingiber officinale) extract in cholesterol fed rabbits. J Ethnopharm. 1998;61(2):167-171.

Bliddal H, Rosetzsky A, Schlichting P, et al. A randomized, placebo-controlled, cross-over study of ginger extracts and ibuprofen in osteoarthritis. Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2000;8:9-12.

Blumenthal M, Goldberg A, Brinckmann J. Herbal Medicine: Expanded Commission E Monographs. Boston, Mass: Integrative Medicine Communications; 2000;153-159.

Bone ME, Wilkinson DJ, Young JR, McNeil J, Charlton S. Ginger root–a new antiemetic. The effect of ginger root on postoperative nausea and vomiting after major gynaecological surgery. Anaesthesia. 1990;45(8):669-71.

Bordia A, Verma SK, Srivastava KC. Effect of ginger (Zingiber officinale Rosc.) and fenugreek (Trigonella foenumgraecum L.) on blood lipids, blood sugar, and platelet aggregation ion patients with coronary heart disease. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 1997;56(5):379-384.

Brinker F. Herb Contraindications and Drug Interactions. 2nd ed. Sandy, OR: Eclectic Medical Publications; 1998:75-76.

Chaiyakunapruk N. The efficacy of ginger for the prevention of postoperative nausea and vomiting: a meta-analysis. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2006;194(1):95-9.

Eberhart LH, Mayer R, Betz O, et al. Ginger does not prevent postoperative nausea and vomiting after laparoscopic surgery.Anesth Analg. 2003;96(4):995-8, table.

Ernst E, Pittler MH. Efficacy of ginger for nausea and vomiting: a systematic review of randomized clinical trials. B J Anaesth. 2000;84(3):367-371.

Fischer-Rasmussen W, Kjaer SK, Dahl C, Asping U. Ginger treatment of hyperemesis gravidarum. Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 1991 Jan 4;38(1):19-24.

Fuhrman B, Rosenblat M, Hayek T, Coleman R, Aviram M. Ginger extract consumption reduces plasma cholesterol, inhibits LDL oxidation, and attenuates development of atherosclerosis in atherosclerotic, apolipoprotein E-deficient mice. J Nutr. 2000;130(5):1124-1131.

Gonlachanvit S, Chen YH, Hasler WL, et al. Ginger reduces hyperglycemia-evoked gastric dysrhythmias in healthy humans: possible role of endogenous prostaglandins. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2003;307(3):1098-1103.

Grontved A, Brask T, Kambskard J, Hentzer E. Ginger root against seasickness: a controlled trial on the open sea. Acta Otolaryngol. 1988;105:45-49.

Heck AM, DeWitt BA, Lukes AL. Potential interactions between alternative therapies and warfarin. Am J Health Syst Pharm. 2000;57(13):1221-1227.

Kruth P, Brosi E, Fux R, et al. Ginger-associated overanticoagulation by phenprocoumon. Ann Pharmacother. 2004;38(2):257-260.

Langner E, Greifenberg S, Gruenwald J. Ginger: history and use. Adv Ther. 1998;15(1):25-44.

Larkin M. Surgery patients at risk for herb-anaesthesia interactions. Lancet. 1999;354(9187):1362.

LaValle JB, Krinsky DL, Hawkins EB, et al. Natural Therapeutics Pocket Guide. Hudson, OH: LexiComp; 2000:440-441.

Lee SH, Cekanova M, Baek SJ. Multiple mechanisms are involved in 6-gingerol-induced cell growth arrest and apoptosis in human colorectal cancer cells. Mol Carcinog. 2008;47(3):197-208.

Mahady GB, Pendland SL, Yun GS, et al. Ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) and the gingerols inhibit the growth of Cag A+ strains of Helicobacter pylori. Anticancer Res. 2003;23(5A):3699-3702.

Nurtjahja-Tjendraputra E, Ammit AJ, Roufogalis BD, et al. Effective anti-platelet and COX-1 enzyme inhibitors from pungent constituents of ginger. Thromb Res. 2003;111(4-5):259-265.

Phillips S, Ruggier R, Hutchinson SE. Zingiber officinale (ginger)–an antiemetic for day case surgery. Anaesthesia. 1993;48(8):715-717.

Portnoi G, Chng LA, Karimi-Tabesh L, et al. Prospective comparative study of the safety and effectiveness of ginger for the treatment of nausea and vomiting in pregnancy. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2003;189(5):1374-1377.

Sripramote M, Lekhyananda N. A randomized comparison of ginger and vitamin B6 in the treatment of nausea and vomiting of pregnancy. J Med Assoc Thai. 2003;86(9):846-853.

Srivastava KC, Mustafa T. Ginger (Zingiber officinale) in rheumatism and musculoskeletal disorders. Medical Hypotheses. 1992;39:343-348.

Thomson M, Al Qattan KK, Al Sawan SM, et al. The use of ginger (Zingiber officinale Rosc.) as a potential anti-inflammatory and antithrombotic agent. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2002;67(6):475-478.

Vaes LP, Chyka PA. Interactions of warfarin with garlic, ginger, ginkgo, or ginseng: nature of the evidence. Ann Pharmacother. 2000;34(12):1478-1482.

Vutyavanich T, Kraisarin T, Ruangsri R. Ginger for nausea and vomiting in pregnancy: randomized, double-masked, placebo-controlled trial. Obstet Gynecol. 2001;97(4):577-582.

Wang CC, Chen LG, Lee LT, et al. Effects of 6-gingerol, an antioxidant from ginger, on inducing apoptosis in human leukemic HL-60 cells. In Vivo. 2003;17(6):641-645.

White B. Ginger: an overview. Am Fam Physician. 2007;75(11):1689-91.

Wigler I, Grotto I, Caspi D, et al. The effects of Zintona EC (a ginger extract) on symptomatic gonarthritis. Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2003;11(11):783-789.

Willetts KE, Ekangaki A, Eden JA. Effect of a ginger extract on pregnancy-induced nausea: a randomised controlled trial. Aust N Z J Obstet Gynaecol. 2003;43(2):139-144.

Yamahara J, Rong HQ, Naitohh Y, et al. Inhibition of cytotoxic drug-induced vomiting in suncus by a ginger constituent. J Ethnopharmacol. 1989;27:535–536.

Ginger is nothing short of a miracle MEDICINE for many.
I think "we" are done.
You aren't open minded enough (at this point )to discuss/look into it or maybe spend the money on buying research materials/books and find no fascination in natural wellness imo.

No hard feelings.."We" learn every day.
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 53
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 4:36:46 AM
Natural Remedies for High Blood Pressure -

Daily diet will be the largest contributing factor concerning blood pressure -- Everything starts here.
Fish oil
Magnesium
Hawthorn Leaf Extract

ActiveMelany -

Better to spend money on the medication than anything else in life you spend money on


There's nothing wrong with trying all these anecdotal foods, supplements, etc. Most are worthless...


Less stress, diet, salt reduction weight loss, etc. rarely bring BP down significantly. They are fine in border line cases but that's it


Shakes head, how unfortunate to read this from a skilled healthcare professional.

NotdatingForumsonly -

Some diabetics can lose weight and they will no longer need meds if they are non-insulin dependent...
If the diabetic "IS" insulin dependent?

PeppermintPetunias -

More people die from Dr prescribed drugs than you want to know

This ^

None of us know everything, none of us have every answer..but we are obligated to get informed as much as we can.
Most physicians are not your father, brother, uncle, husband,wife, sister and have no vested interest in you living the best life you can

This ^

Skyr -

There is nothing new about alternative therapies

Which makes them so wonderful. Centuries of use and documentation is very appealing.


If they're proven to work, it wouldn't be called alternative therapy, it would be called medicine


Alternative therapy is synonymous with Alternative Medicine.
In regards to "Proof" of alternative medicine working......This is a good time to utilize your research skills
 Just___Jim
Joined: 10/21/2012
Msg: 54
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 7:21:43 AM

Digestive Aid – Ginger has traditionally used as a digestive aid. It was the Alka-Seltzer of Roman Empire. In many cultures ginger was given as a digestive with meals. In Colonial times candied ginger was given after meals and was the number one candy in America.


Like ginger snaps,ginger bread, Canada ginger ale,& my all time fav, Reed's Ginger Chews.......will always soothes,the savage soul......
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 55
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 7:29:28 AM

I have taken the time to research and read articles from Harvard and Cornell among others.
Dozens of books on herbs/spices,roots and rhizomes
NOT on the internet.
You do the same if you are interested.


So if it's written in a book it must be true?



Why would a drug company or school spend millions to study yet again what they have already shown yet can't patent it and get their money back?


Are you implying that all medical research are conducted by drug companies? Did the authors of the 'dozens of books on herbs/spices/roots and rhizomes' that you've read, do it to kill trees or to make money?


Cancer - Ginger causes ovarian cancer cells to die, in a April 2006 University of Michigan cell study.


Is that in vitro or in a real people? How many participants were in the study if it was in a real population? Was it level 1 evidence (double blinded randomised controlled trials)? What was mortality benefit? Statistical significance? Saying something kills cancer cells is meaningless in itself. If I dropped an ovarian tumour into a vat of hydrochloric acid, most of the cells would die. It doesn't make hydrochloric acid a miracle cure for ovarian cancer.


Motion Sickness and Nausea – March 1982, a prominent British medical magazine, The Lancet, reported that a study comparing Dramamine, a popular motion sickness medicine, to ginger found ginger twice as effective.


There are plenty of studies on ginger and vomiting. Some show a benefit, but were at high risk of bias, according to the Cochrane Collaboration, which pulled out 27 RCTs in their 2010 systematic review. I did a quick search on medline and it took me a couple of minutes to pull out a few RCTs on ginger in nausea. Some showed benefit and others made no difference, but most studies had fairly low numbers. Nothing to get excited about. Probably worth trying, even if you get little more than placebo effect, but hardly 'miracle medicine'. I love Ginger beer, so I'm not averse to it when I'm nauseus.

As for your other studies- I didn't ask you to copy and paste a whole lot of jumble that you picked up from typing 'ginger+nausea' into google or medline.

Have you thought about engaging the frontal cortex before you post? Pasting the title of a journal article doesn't mean the journal article showed a positive effect of Ginger. All it states is that someone did a study of it. Did it show a positive effect? How good was the study? Is it level 3 anecdotes, or level 1 RCTs?

You've even cut and pasted articles that showed no benefit. Perhaps you should read what you copy and paste articles before you use it to try and sound authoritative:
Eberhart LH, Mayer R, Betz O, et al. Ginger does not prevent postoperative nausea and vomiting after laparoscopic surgery.Anesth Analg. 2003;96(4):995-8, table.

Here is an interesting one that you obviously haven't bothered looking beyond the journal title:
Ernst E, Pittler MH. Efficacy of ginger for nausea and vomiting: a systematic review of randomized clinical trials. B J Anaesth. 2000;84(3):367-371.

I pulled out the the abstract which reads:
Ginger (Zingiber officinale) is often advocated as beneficial for nausea and vomiting. Whether the herb is truly efficacious for this condition is, however, still a matter of debate. We have performed a systematic review of the evidence from randomized controlled trials for or against the efficacy of ginger for nausea and vomiting. Six studies met all inclusion criteria and were reviewed. Three on postoperative nausea and vomiting were identified and two of these suggested that ginger was superior to placebo and equally effective as metoclopramide. The pooled absolute risk reduction for the incidence of postoperative nausea, however, indicated a non-significant difference between the ginger and placebo groups for ginger 1 g taken before operation (absolute risk reduction 0.052 (95% confidence interval -0.082 to 0.186)).

In plainspeak: two of three RCTS showed a small difference for post-op nausea/ vomiting over placebo, but when you take the pooled results of all three RCTS in the review, there was no statistically significant difference over placebo.

And some of the others were merely about drug interactions. What has that got anything to do with ginger being a 'miracle medicine'.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 56
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 7:55:08 AM

"Daily diet will be the largest contributing factor concerning blood pressure -- Everything starts here.
Fish oil
Magnesium
Hawthorn Leaf Extract "



In regards to "Proof" of alternative medicine working......This is a good time to utilize your research skills


--speaking of research skills, why don't you tell us the population effect of those? How much do each of those items you listed make to blood pressure in mmHg?


Some diabetics can lose weight and they will no longer need meds if they are non-insulin dependent...
If the diabetic "IS" insulin dependent?


Depends if they have Type 1 DM or Type 2 DM. If you have Type 1 DM, losing weight isn't going to make your pancreatic islet cells suddenly squirt out insulin. You will die without insulin. For Type 2 diabetics (many are also on insulin), losing weight helps decrease insulin resistance, but you need to lose a lot, and not everyone with Type 2 DM is fat.


There is nothing new about alternative therapies
Which makes them so wonderful. Centuries of use and documentation is very appealing.


Centuries of documentation doesn't make the earth flat, or the moon made of cheese. Having said that, it is kind of appealing to make a cheese sandwich on the moon. Which makes the moon so wonderful!

Sailing to the end of the earth is fairly romatic too, I think.
 Just___Jim
Joined: 10/21/2012
Msg: 57
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 4:19:04 PM

Centuries of documentation doesn't make the earth flat, or the moon made of cheese. Having said that, it is kind of appealing to make a cheese sandwich on the moon. Which makes the moon so wonderful!

Sailing to the end of the earth is fairly romantic too, I think.


skyr, thanks you came on board here, as someone who is in being knowledgeable in the Health & Science field.

As romantic it is for those to think as the [ Dr Feel Good's Medicine Show] thinks if they should take 50 to 100 supplements a day to receive minimal health. yikes lol
Methink has the world gone flat too,in taking that many supplements to live normally! lol

And as romantic it is, in thinking,as they know the silver bullet in longer & quality life,guess what,it all has to have good health, a good diet, [knowledge] , be active, have good family,good friends, and good health insurance! lol

The rest, your just flushing down the toilet,like $ 28 billion a year in supplements if your lazy & don't do the first part first.

And imo, unless you have tummy problems, the best drug for regular maintenance is the lowly 81 m aspirin & a minimal mulit-vit.....that's all....... the rest is up to you.

And for high blood pressure, live right,eat right, work right & love right.......
 normaldude
Joined: 3/8/2006
Msg: 58
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/14/2012 4:54:37 PM
not sure if its been mentioned but the D.A.S.H diet may be a good complimentary program to go along with doctoring stuff. I think lots of the supplement stuff is bogus because you may not be getting what you think you,re paying for in the pill. It has been shown that our friends in China have been supplying ingredients for the supplements and we all know how that stuff can "fluctuate"sometimes.
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 59
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/15/2012 9:45:57 AM
Sigh

Omega 3's population effect - 100% These essential fatty acids are needed by every cell in the body.
Magnesium's population effect - 100% This mineral is needed by every cell in the body.
Hawthorn leaf extract's population effect - Unanswerable question without knowing the outcome of
every single individual who has/will take it. However, Hawthorn leaf extracts long history with lowering blood pressure should be acknowledged and looked into further, not dismissed.


How much do each of those items you listed make to blood pressure in mmHg?

^ Doesn't make sense but I believe I know what you're asking. Omega 3's, magnesium and Hawthorn leaf
extract 's daily dose to treat HBP is a question for a physician who uses these as a "treatment" for HBP.
I would be just as interested in the answer to this question from a qualified physician. Remember something
here Skyr, the thread asked for suggestions for natural remedies and they have been given. I did not give any
dosage requirements as I am not a prescribing, qualified physician in holistic health. This does not, in any way,
say my suggestions are without merit.

I posed a question to notdatingforumsonly - You answered it which is fine


Depends if they have Type 1 DM or Type 2 DM. If you have Type 1 DM, losing weight isn't going to make your pancreatic islet cells suddenly squirt out insulin. You will die without insulin.

I'm well educated on the different forms of diabetes including the newly proposed type 3. Unless otherwise noted, its safe to say we are speaking of type 2. With that said....


For Type 2 diabetics (many are also on insulin), losing weight helps decrease insulin resistance, but you need to lose a lot, and not everyone with Type 2 DM is fat

This particular quote above I'd like to address. It's a myth overweight diabetics need to lose weight before significant changes can be seen with insulin sensitivity.

Diabetics who have had gastric bypass surgery is a great example. Within 1 week of surgery significant insulin sensitivity from caloric restriction can be seen. These insulin sensitivity results "precede" any significant
weight loss whatsoever.

Digging further - How the above takes place is attributed to Nutrigenomics. The way food talks to your genes

Weight loss is "obviously" vital to optimal health, but it is not needed in the case of type 2 diabetics to obtain increasedinsulin sensitivity. Going back to my earlier question to notdatingforumsonly - I believe she was indicating
(I could be wrong here ) that once you start insulin, you are on it for life. This is why I asked the question to begin with. I would also dispute that once an individual starts insulin they are stuck on it, this is also a myth.

In regards to the last part of your post, my earlier statement stands. Alternative therapy is synonymous with Alternative medicine. Alternative medicine is recognized and practiced all over the world. You made an earlier statement that alternative therapy is not recognized as medicine - - Untrue.

This is not a competition Skyr. For acute illness and trauma there is nothing better than emergency, conventional
medicine. I have yet to read anyone in this thread say otherwise.

Going back to the original thread question, what natural remedies do you suggest if any?
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 60
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/15/2012 7:37:10 PM

Omega 3's population effect - 100% These essential fatty acids are needed by every cell in the body.
Magnesium's population effect - 100% This mineral is needed by every cell in the body.


--I guess low magnesium can precipitate Torsades, which would a kill person, so in that sense it would lower blood pressure.



Hawthorn leaf extract's population effect - Unanswerable question without knowing the outcome of
every single individual who has/will take it.


That's like saying blood pressure medications have variable effects in different individuals, and therefore you can't tell if they work or not. What is the size of the effect and is it enough to be clinically significant?



This particular quote above I'd like to address. It's a myth overweight diabetics need to lose weight before significant changes can be seen with insulin sensitivity.


--that's not inconsistent with what I've said. Losing weight is one of the measures that can be used to decrease insulin resistance. In terms of gastric bypass, the effect is over and above what you would expect from weight loss alone. One can hypothesize it is an effect of hormones released from the stomach. The bariatric surgeon where I live was involved in a study looking at this exact phenomena. Was over 10yrs ago though, so the hormonal axis could well have been identified by now.



In regards to the last part of your post, my earlier statement stands. Alternative therapy is synonymous with Alternative medicine. Alternative medicine is recognized and practiced all over the world. You made an earlier statement that alternative therapy is not recognized as medicine - - Untrue.


I was using that term as a synonym. Being practiced doesn't mean that it works. Being recognised doesn't mean it works either- there was a big outcry in the UK over the funding of homeopathy. They spent millions of dollars buying very expensive water for patients. If something has been proven to work, it's no longer alternative medicine, it is simply medicine. After all, what is it an alternative to? Something else that works?

The line blurs because much of medicine started with practices that are not evidence based, and still get called medicine, and there are plenty of alternative medicines that have been proven to work, but still get called alternative medicine because that's what they have been for a long time. Others are just merely refinements- the example I gave of Willow bark demonstrates this....the active salicylates are used as blood thinners. Or beta lactams from mould. Or coumarins from fermented clover.


Going back to the original thread question, what natural remedies do you suggest if any?


If you take 'natural' to mean non-pharmaceutical then what I said earlier- exercise, weight loss, moderating salt intake.



Weight loss is "obviously" vital to optimal health, but it is not needed in the case of type 2 diabetics to obtain increasedinsulin sensitivity.


--an oven is 'not needed' to make a pizza either, but it's easier than making a campfire on your kitchen bench.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 61
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/15/2012 8:09:02 PM
This is essentially what I was asking. How good are they and what is the effect.

Here is a Cochrane Review on Mg in the treatment of hypertension:
http://tinyurl.com/cj8cho7

Note that this is for Mg in essential hypertension, not pre-eclampsia.

Omega 3s are an essential part of a healthy diet, but the question is regarding hypertension specifically. I don't have time to look up the evidence for hypertension right now, but will have a look when I have time.
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 62
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/16/2012 4:10:53 AM

I guess low magnesium can precipitate Torsades, which would a kill person, so in that sense it would lower blood pressure.

Torsades is uncommon and quite a stretch here, I'm a bit surprised you chose to mention it.

Your question to me was what is the population effect of magnesium. The answer is 100%.
Needed by every cell in the body and involved with over 300 functions on a daily basis, a co-factor in the transition state formation during ATP synthesis, 4th most abundant cation in the body and low levels are "directly" related to the formation of insulin resistance and HBP.


That's like saying blood pressure medications have variable effects in different individuals, and therefore you can't tell if they work or not. What is the size of the effect and is it enough to be clinically significant?

No, it's not like saying that at all.
Again, Hawthorn leaf extracts population effect is unanswerable without knowing the out come of every single
individual who has/will take it. However, Hawthorn leaf extract is not a brand new idea that is being used with wild abandon; with zero regard to safety. Its well documented and it's long history is noteworthy - - It should not be dismissed.


-that's not inconsistent with what I've said. Losing weight is one of the measures that can be used to decrease insulin resistance.

What I disputed and you said was "losing weight helps decrease insulin resistance, but you need to lose a lot"
An individual does not need to "Lose alot" before the effects of increased insulin sensitivity take place.


there was a big outcry in the UK over the funding of homeopathy. They spent millions of dollars buying very expensive water for patients

I'd be upset with this clear waste of money as well.


If something has been proven to work, it's no longer alternative medicine, it is simply medicine

"Conventional Medicine" has a difficult time embracing the term "Medicine" on any level other than their own.
I would submit you are not comfortable accepting anything other than conventional medicine as well.


If you take 'natural' to mean non-pharmaceutical then what I said earlier- exercise, weight loss, moderating salt intake

Great suggestions but I don't see anything related to daily nutrition. What would you suggest food wise, as a foundation to a healthy body? Any suggestions for protein requirements? Carb consumption? Would you recommend
your patients lower their sugars? Types of sugars?


an oven is 'not needed' to make a pizza either, but it's easier than making a campfire on your kitchen bench

I understand the repeated use of analogies might be comfortable for you, but the above statement doesn't make
much sense. I have not, in any way, stated losing weight is not "vital" for optimal health. Especially in the case of
diabetics. I have stated and will state again, insulin sensitivity can and does take place "preceding" weight loss.
Hopefully this is clear


Omega 3s are an essential part of a healthy diet, but the question is regarding hypertension specifically.

If you are asking this question then although you realize omega 3's are part of a healthy diet, you aren't sure "How"
they work as part of that healthy diet. This is not being snarky, merely an observation. Omega 3's EPA & DHA, help normalize blood sugar, improve insulin sensitivity and reduce the risk of heart disease. High insulin levels and decreased insulin receptor sensitivity is a main driver of HBP. Doctors now prescribe over $1 billion in fish oil
supplements.

Only 1 in 4 medical schools have a nutrition course and only 28% of schools meet the "minimum" 25 hours of
nutrition education recommended. The most fundamental line of defense we have against disease is what we
"Feed" our bodies yet only 1 in 4 med schools require any background on it and when they do.....only 25 hours.
Terrible.

I respect your education and point of view Skyr, you have a obvious background in medical science and I'm sure you are quite good at what you do. I would speculate you work with diabetics more than any other group of people from the medications you have listed in this thread, among others.

You might be interested in the following links

http://www.functionalmedicine.org/
http://www.acamnet.org/site/c.ltJWJ4MPIwE/b.5420171/k.76F0/Integrative_Medicine_From_ACAM__the_voice_of_integrative_medicine.htm
http://www.abihm.org/
http://www.aaemonline.org/index.php
http://www.holisticboard.org/
 SugahPunkin
Joined: 5/28/2010
Msg: 63
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/16/2012 5:17:47 AM
Glad to see you had a renal panel. Uncontrolled high bp is the leading cause of kidney failure. It needs to be addressed for all who have a high bp. Renin, our bodies natural bp med is produced in the kidneys. Aa lower amount produced might be the culprit yet youve had it checked. I doubt its the result of prednisone.
Hawthorne has been mentioned and is the homeopathic way to help the heart. But you may want to consult a professional herbalist who will see the contraindications between meds and herbs.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 64
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/16/2012 8:51:52 AM

is uncommon and quite a stretch here, I'm a bit surprised you chose to mention it.


I was being facetious. Can you not tell it was supposed to be funny? :-b


Your question to me was what is the population effect of magnesium. The answer is 100%.
Needed by every cell in the body and involved with over 300 functions on a daily basis, a co-factor in the transition state formation during ATP synthesis, 4th most abundant cation in the body and low levels are "directly" related to the formation of insulin resistance and HBP.


But we are talking about Mg and hypertension are we not?


Again, Hawthorn leaf extracts population effect is unanswerable without knowing the out come of every single
individual who has/will take it.


Until we have personalised medicine specific to our unique genome/proteome, it's how studies measure the effectiveness of a drug.


"Conventional Medicine" has a difficult time embracing the term "Medicine" on any level other than their own. I would submit you are not comfortable accepting anything other than conventional medicine as well.


I embrace evidence based medicine. Conventional medicine does not necessarily equate evidence based medicine either. The tools we have to test medicines are crude, but nevertheless they are there, and should be used. IMHO, it is unethical to prescribe something with potential harm if there is no evidence of benefit. Something about beneficence and non-maleficence as core tenets of medical ethics.


What would you suggest food wise, as a foundation to a healthy body? Any suggestions for protein requirements? Carb consumption? Would you recommend
your patients lower their sugars? Types of sugars?


It was not something I was trying to answer. I was talking specifically about hypertension, not general health.


Omega 3's EPA & DHA, help normalize blood sugar, improve insulin sensitivity and reduce the risk of heart disease. High insulin levels and decreased insulin receptor sensitivity is a main driver of HBP.


I wasn't in agreement or disagreement. I merely asked you what was the evidence of Omega 3s on blood pressure, and the clinical significance (ie how much the effect is). It's not something I've looked into. You are correlating two variables and coming to a conclusion about a third. How about a direct link between Omega 3s and hypertension?


Only 1 in 4 medical schools have a nutrition course and only 28% of schools meet the "minimum" 25 hours of
nutrition education recommended. The most fundamental line of defense we have against disease is what we
"Feed" our bodies yet only 1 in 4 med schools require any background on it and when they do.....only 25 hours.
Terrible.


Medical school is barely the start of a medical education.
 activemelaney
Joined: 9/8/2012
Msg: 65
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/16/2012 10:27:50 AM

Medical school is barely the start of a medical education.


Much of the non medical community doesn't understand this. Medical school (or in my case nurse's college) was to get you up to speed to 'begin' hands on contact with patients. We then learn from other professionals and doing our own extensive reading of legitimate medical publications. We don't prescribe somene's great aunt's tea formula for reducing blood pressure levels. Not because we are close minded and 'ignorant'. but the reverse, we are quite aware of what constitutes proper studies and peer reviewed research.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 66
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/16/2012 1:34:48 PM
Many Physicians will admit they do not recommend something necessary for proper heart function and health like magnesium for reducing blood pressure or niacin for high blood lipids ( which they still claim is so dangerous though never proven) even when they know it is effective or even question a patient much about diet or lifestyle.

Many patients WANT a pill and not have to change.

It still does not excuse medicating with a drug that could pose serious side effects when just a change in salt intake or adding mineral rich foods and omega 3's could control.

Its called DEFENSIVE medical practice.
They are afraid of getting sued.

PERIOD.

Giving blood on a regular basis can keep some border line patients in the normal range.
Celery seeds and dandelion are diuretics and can keep excess blood pressure down.

The patient needs to be looked at as a whole person, every part of the lifestyle esp diet and exercise.
Take time to discuss stressors/ drinking/smoking/environmental factors.


The blame is not in one place for over medicating or addressing nutrition first.

The blame is in the system from lack of education to insurance companies and a lack of combining healthy living skills being taught and told that it should be the first step in a medical practice even if it takes an additional 20 minutes to talk with a patient.


A GP or FP won't even take a piece of glass out of your foot now..It's become ridiculous in America.

Everyone gets oodles of expensive tests and referrals to specialist.
Pills.

Glad we have a forum to discuss what has worked for us, our friends and family and even our clients.
The thing with some natural remedies is the "patient" does not always have an immediate effect felt or shown.
It can take a week to 30 days, possibly more.

Blood pressure it can often have an effect that day or with in a week depending on other circumstances.

I have found the correct dosage in the correct form of magnesium can reduce blood pressure in SOME individuals
in as little as 15 minutes.It is not a replacement for a bad lifestyle or for those that have such high blood pressure they are in a danger zone/ need to be admitted to a hospital.

I do not suggest anyone try anything with out discussing it with a medical professional that knows their history and medications.

Example :borderline to moderate high, a dose of 350 mg magnesium in the form of ionic magnesium citrate magnesium carbonate 2-3 times a day COULD keep someone off medication.
They still need to address nutrition in other ways .Usually its weight issues/processed foods/salt intake at a min.

The magnesium could cause some stomach distress in some individuals as in a laxative effect.
That dosage is not usually a concern until someone can get the correct amount of minerals in their diet through foods which is unfortunately hard to do now that the soil is depleted.


People are impatient.
Physicians are overly big "brothered".

I just had a great conversation with my family physician about herbs and soy.
He is all for it and we are working together to address a lack of estrogen naturally.

He even mentioned getting a cream form.

There are some very good doctors out there.I applaud them.


I don't always mention that as I have seen so many sides of things and from the inside/ out.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 67
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/16/2012 5:13:35 PM

Many Physicians will admit they do not recommend something necessary for proper heart function and health like magnesium for reducing blood pressure


It remains unproven for hypertension (although still being studied). Have a look at the Cochrane Review I posted. If you're deficient, there's no reason why it wouldn't prescribe it to maintain 'proper heart function and health'. Water is essential for general bodily functions too. Drink too much and it will kill you.



or niacin for high blood lipids ( which they still claim is so dangerous though never proven) even when they know it is effective or even question a patient much about diet or lifestyle.


Alongside smoking and hypertension, hyperlipidaemia is well established as a modifiable cardiovascular risk factor. There are bigger risk factors for cardiovascular disease (old age, male genotype and genetic and epigenetic factors etc), so it's no point trying to do anything about those (until we figure out how to manipulate our genes after we're born).



A GP or FP won't even take a piece of glass out of your foot now..It's become ridiculous in America.


If you can see it, great, pull it out. If not, you can go digging for hours. There are lots of fascial planes that make it harder than you'd think. Seeing it on an xray doesn't mean doesn't mean you'll find it when you dig, and most GPs don't keep an image intensifier or U/S machine in their surgery. Just sayin'
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 68
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 12:29:31 PM
Not a fan of long posts and yet.......I apologize in advance :-)


Your question to me was what is the population effect of magnesium. The answer is 100%.
Needed by every cell in the body and involved with over 300 functions on a daily basis, a co-factor in the transition state formation during ATP synthesis, 4th most abundant cation in the body and low levels are "directly" related to the formation of insulin resistance and HBP.

But we are talking about Mg and hypertension are we not?

We are. Answered in the last sentence above.


Again, Hawthorn leaf extracts population effect is unanswerable without knowing the out come of every single
individual who has/will take it.

Until we have personalized medicine specific to our unique genome/proteome, it's how studies measure the effectiveness of a drug.

We do have personalized medicine : Functional Medicine.
Whole systems medicine that focuses on the underlying biologic causes of disease. The latest advances in systems
biology and genomics make this very appealing for the millions of people who are sick, currently being treated
with conventional medicine; yet getting sicker.


I embrace evidence based medicine

It appears you, myself and peppermint petunias all do.


Conventional medicine does not necessarily equate evidence based medicine either.

Gasp.....No!


Something about beneficence and non-maleficence as core tenets of medical ethics

Now here is where I have a large problem with conventional medicine - - Hear me out.
Health care costs in the US over the next 10 years, attributable to diabetes and PRE diabetes; will be $3.4 trillion
From 2000 to 2010, both diabetes and obesity have cost the US $3 trillion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19940225

Pre diabetes is insulin resistance which can last for decades before full blown diabetes takes place. In that time most of those patients will need a beta blocker for HBP = Beta blockers directly make insulin resistance worse
Most of those patients will need a statin = Statins drugs directly make insulin resistance worse.
Speaking of cholesterol, most conventional medical physicians do not test the particle size, they spotlight the
Total, HDL and LDL levels only. Small particle size equals insulin resistance. Statins make this worse, they do not heal a thing. A1c's are not ordered in many cases and should be. Blood sugar should NOT be tested by a finger prick, it should be tested by an insulin response test, but that is rarely offered patients. The oral hypoglycemic drug, glyberide also makes insulin resistance worse, yet widely prescribed.

Millions of patients eventually submit to insulin injections, which causes weight gain, raises BP and cholesterol even MORE, causes depression (especially in women ) While our depressed, overweight patient is taking HBP and high cholesterol medications..... both those conditions are now made worse by injecting insulin.

You are aware of the ACCORD database. NEJM 2008, involved 10,000 patients who were subject to blood sugar lowering medications for diabetes. The patients who had their blood sugar lowered the MOST by conventional medications; had a higher rate of death.
The study was stopped after 3.5 years by the NIH because of this. Conventional medicine is not curing the largest, preventable killer. The medications that are prescribed by conventional medicine are not fixing the problem.

Good ole Avandia, another diabetes medication killed over 47,000 people in the first 10 years on the market.
Its STILL on the market and prescribed but now there's a black box warning on the label. Physicians would never take this themselves nor prescribe it to their loved ones. All these medications to treat insulin resistance and diabetes
yet these diseases are growing faster than ever. Clearly conventional medicine is not living up to it's job.

Functional medicine would have gone something like this - - Same patient would have had clear symptoms their
blood sugar/insulin may be a problem. An insulin response test would have been ordered. Results would have shown their insulin was too high and blood sugar too low. Considering that result, an A1C would have been ordered,
a total cholesterol would have been ordered and particle size checked, A full metabolic profile, a comprehensive background on any possible vitamin/mineral deficiencies, toxins, leaky gut problems - - you name it. If it can be tested and it can be the cause of the patients symptoms.....it will be checked.

Say our patient's tests come back with bad news. Unless that patient's BP is thru the roof and they are not in dire need of emergency care, their treatment will go something like this. Their diet will be completely overhauled and given an appropriate food plan. A large does Niacin to increase the particle size of their cholesterol (reduce insulin resistance) A highly absorbable, bio available multi vitamin to correct any nutritional deficiencies. Alpha Lipoic Acid and Q-10 to get their mitochondria moving. High quality fish oil to help their cells become insulin sensitive and because it's needed by every cell in the body especially the brain. And an exercise plan that's tailored to their needs.
Probiotics and digetstive enzymes would be given to help break down the food, fix the gut lining and repopulate
the friendly bacteria. L-glutamine is WONDERFUL at repairing a gut lining.

The only thing not addressed was the HBP. That will quickly reduce on it's own if the above is done. For the more advanced cases, it's possible there is a toxicity such as mercury (lots of fish intake) or cadmium. Chelation therapy is an option.

Thankyou for bearing with me on my soap box. The take home message I'm trying to get across here is conventional medicine does have it's place, however, what peppermint petunias and myself are trying to convey is
"Prevention" Of disease should be the focus in ALL Medicine.

But there's no money in that.


It was not something I was trying to answer. I was talking specifically about hypertension, not general health

How are these two separate?


I merely asked you what was the evidence of Omega 3s on blood pressure, and the clinical significance (ie how much the effect is)

This perspective might make more sense.......what would happen if omega 3's ceased to exist for you?
How would that effect your blood pressure? Is that significant enough?
Deficiency in omega 3's being epidemic.....I would say this is a problem and should be addressed by the medical
community globally


Many Physicians will admit they do not recommend something necessary for proper heart function and health like magnesium for reducing blood pressure

It remains unproven for hypertension (although still being studied). Have a look at the Cochrane Review I posted. If you're deficient, there's no reason why it wouldn't prescribe it to maintain 'proper heart function and health'. Water is essential for general bodily functions too. Drink too much and it will kill you

I realize you are speaking to PP here hopefully you don't mind if I respond. I did look at the Cochrane review. Snagged a snippet from the bottom of the review itself:

"However, most included trials were of poor quality, so their results may not be reliable. The trials were not long enough or large enough to measure whether extra magnesium can reduce possible consequences of high blood pressure: death, heart attack or stroke"

Alright. This is not to say your study does not have any merit, however something needs to be noted in the future when it comes to studies such as these. Nutrients such as magnesium work as a "team" with other nutrients. I'm open
to learning and welcome any studies that cover all angles.
What other drugs where they taking?
Anything that bound magnesium?
What were they eating everyday? A sugary/starchy diet that made magnesium absorption difficult?
High amounts of protein or zinc that interfered with Mg absorption?

HBP calcium channel blockers warn not to take extra magnesium because of it's
potential to "Lower blood pressure" <----- This seems to be recognized by even the Conventional Medical Community.


or niacin for high blood lipids ( which they still claim is so dangerous though never proven) even when they know it is effective or even question a patient much about diet or lifestyle.

Alongside smoking and hypertension, hyperlipidaemia is well established as a modifiable cardiovascular risk factor


I've read this response several times and I'm not sure how it fits with what peppermint petunias said above.
Are you suggesting we aren't aware HBP and HC are modifiable?? Scratches head...stating the obvious or errr??


There are bigger risk factors for cardiovascular disease (old age, male genotype and genetic and epigenetic factors etc)

A few questions.

1. Bigger than what?
2. Old age? cardiovascular disease is most often wayyyyyyy before old age
3. Genetics? It's widely known in the medical science that genetics pre dispose you, sure, but they are not your fate.
The risk of cardiovascular disease will most likely, across the globe, have very little to do with your genetics than your daily diet, exposures, toxins, allergens, microbes, sense of self and exercise.
4. Epigenetics.....Inheritable and reversible. And reversal starts with your diet.

If you are speaking at all on epigenetics then you should be familiar with nutrigenomics.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 70
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 2:25:51 PM

But we are talking about Mg and hypertension are we not?

We are. Answered in the last sentence above.


Again, you are measuring two variables and extrapolating to a third. Magnesium and hypertension- the jury is out. ATP and hypertesion...I don't know, but we're talking Mg and blood pressure; not Magnesium in the Krebs cycle producing ATP which might have an effect on blood pressure.


I embrace evidence based medicine

It appears you, myself and peppermint petunias all do.


And yet I'm the only one referring to levels of evidence.


Blood sugar should NOT be tested by a finger prick, it should be tested by an insulin response test, but that is rarely offered patients.


For what purpose? A finger prick glucose is useful for monitoring blood sugars during the day, it's not used to diagnose diabetes unless the BSLs are extremely high. A fasting sugar is a better test, and for borderline impaired glucose tolerance, that is when you'd use a glucose challenge, if that's what you mean by insulin response test.


Good ole Avandia, another diabetes medication killed over 47,000 people in the first 10 years on the market.
Its STILL on the market and prescribed but now there's a black box warning on the label. Physicians would never take this themselves nor prescribe it to their loved ones. All these medications to treat insulin resistance and diabetes
yet these diseases are growing faster than ever. Clearly conventional medicine is not living up to it's job.


I don't know the study you're referring to, but for the sake of argument, assuming it's correct, then conventional medicine is doing exactly what it is supposed to. Would you have followed up 47,000 patients for 10yrs of taking herbal supplements, and then published the results of adverse reactions (which is thus used to guide clinical decision making based on beneficence/maleficence)? I think not.


It was not something I was trying to answer. I was talking specifically about hypertension, not general health
How are these two separate?


Because you can live a perfectly healthy lifestyle and still develop hypertension, and I was talking specifically about hypertension. It might be good for your health to wear a seat-belt in a car, but seatbelts aren't used in the treatment of hypertension.


Alright. This is not to say your study does not have any merit, however something needs to be noted in the future when it comes to studies such as these. Nutrients such as magnesium work as a "team" with other nutrients. I'm open
to learning and welcome any studies that cover all angles.
What other drugs where they taking?
Anything that bound magnesium?
What were they eating everyday? A sugary/starchy diet that made magnesium absorption difficult?
High amounts of protein or zinc that interfered with Mg absorption?


It's not a study, it's a Cochrane Review. They look for the best evidence using the search strategy listed, and they've pulled out 12 randomised controlled trials (Level 1 evidence). This is their inclusion criteria:
Inclusion criteria were: 1) RCTs of a parallel or crossover design comparing oral magnesium supplementation with placebo, no treatment, or usual care; 2) treatment and follow-up =8 weeks; 3) participants over 18 years old, with raised systolic blood pressure (SBP) =140 mmHg or diastolic blood pressure (DBP) =85 mmHg; 4) SBP and DBP reported at end of follow-up. We excluded trials where: participants were pregnant; received antihypertensive medication which changed during the study; or magnesium supplementation was combined with other interventions.

It doesn't matter what every individual was doing in regards to their diet and medications (with the proviso of changing antihypertensive meds during the study) as they would average out provided you had good randomisation and statistical power to reject the null hypothesis.


Are you suggesting we aren't aware HBP and HC are modifiable?? Scratches head...stating the obvious or errr??


Maybe not so obvious for some. That was in response to PP, who claims that hyperlipidaemia is not established as a cardiovascular risk factor. See what I was replying to?

...or niacin for high blood lipids ( which they still claim is so dangerous though never proven)


1. Bigger than what?
Bigger than most of the modifiable risk factors I listed

2. Old age? cardiovascular disease is most often wayyyyyyy before old age.
Did I imply it was mutually exclusive? You're more likely to have a heart attack if you're 80yrs old than if you're 8yrs old. Doensn't mean 30yr olds don't get heart attacks, or that you're old at 30.

3. Genetics? It's widely known in the medical science that genetics pre dispose you, sure, but they are not your fate.
But it's not risk factor we modify, until we have gene therapy.

The risk of cardiovascular disease will most likely, across the globe, have very little to do with your genetics than your daily diet, exposures, toxins, allergens, microbes, sense of self and exercise.
I don't think any cardiologist would agree that it has little to do with genetics.

4. Epigenetics.....Inheritable and reversible. And reversal starts with your diet.
To an extent perhaps. But limited.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 71
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 2:55:04 PM

I find this thread interesting, in that we've had a nurse? coming in apparently stating decisively that "none of that crap like omitting salt, changing diet, exercising" etcetc would "lower BP more than a few points at best". Really? Cause that's the first thing my doctor suggested! I guess a nurse knows better than a doctor??? Only problem was, I already fit said criteria


If it lowers it a few points, why wouldn't you try it? It's not just treating hypertension, it's treating your overall health too. Also, your blood pressure varies throughout the day, and can go up merely from the fact going to the doctor.

In terms of hypertension, you should be aware of how much difference it actually makes before you consider taking medications. Treating mild hypertension (systolic <160 or diastolic <100mmHg) has absolutely no mortality or morbidity benefit. Treatment of hypertension above this in over 60yr olds decreases your relative risk of of cardiovascular mortality/morbidity to to 0.72, and total mortality to 0.90.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 73
view profile
History
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 5:34:24 PM

I like people that don't talk out of both sides of their mouth, and all that. Thanks for your "advice" though.


It was a rhetorical question rather than advice. Advice implies I want someone to do something, and I don't really care about a stranger on the internet.


Odd, since you were one of the "others" advocating prescription meds above all else?


Even odder still...where exactly did I say that?

I've merely posted about the evidence. Did you even know why you're taking blood pressure pills (ie how much you expect you expect to extend your life or decrease your cardiovascular risks)?
Show ALL Forums  > Health Wellness  >