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 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 70
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

But we are talking about Mg and hypertension are we not?

We are. Answered in the last sentence above.


Again, you are measuring two variables and extrapolating to a third. Magnesium and hypertension- the jury is out. ATP and hypertesion...I don't know, but we're talking Mg and blood pressure; not Magnesium in the Krebs cycle producing ATP which might have an effect on blood pressure.


I embrace evidence based medicine

It appears you, myself and peppermint petunias all do.


And yet I'm the only one referring to levels of evidence.


Blood sugar should NOT be tested by a finger prick, it should be tested by an insulin response test, but that is rarely offered patients.


For what purpose? A finger prick glucose is useful for monitoring blood sugars during the day, it's not used to diagnose diabetes unless the BSLs are extremely high. A fasting sugar is a better test, and for borderline impaired glucose tolerance, that is when you'd use a glucose challenge, if that's what you mean by insulin response test.


Good ole Avandia, another diabetes medication killed over 47,000 people in the first 10 years on the market.
Its STILL on the market and prescribed but now there's a black box warning on the label. Physicians would never take this themselves nor prescribe it to their loved ones. All these medications to treat insulin resistance and diabetes
yet these diseases are growing faster than ever. Clearly conventional medicine is not living up to it's job.


I don't know the study you're referring to, but for the sake of argument, assuming it's correct, then conventional medicine is doing exactly what it is supposed to. Would you have followed up 47,000 patients for 10yrs of taking herbal supplements, and then published the results of adverse reactions (which is thus used to guide clinical decision making based on beneficence/maleficence)? I think not.


It was not something I was trying to answer. I was talking specifically about hypertension, not general health
How are these two separate?


Because you can live a perfectly healthy lifestyle and still develop hypertension, and I was talking specifically about hypertension. It might be good for your health to wear a seat-belt in a car, but seatbelts aren't used in the treatment of hypertension.


Alright. This is not to say your study does not have any merit, however something needs to be noted in the future when it comes to studies such as these. Nutrients such as magnesium work as a "team" with other nutrients. I'm open
to learning and welcome any studies that cover all angles.
What other drugs where they taking?
Anything that bound magnesium?
What were they eating everyday? A sugary/starchy diet that made magnesium absorption difficult?
High amounts of protein or zinc that interfered with Mg absorption?


It's not a study, it's a Cochrane Review. They look for the best evidence using the search strategy listed, and they've pulled out 12 randomised controlled trials (Level 1 evidence). This is their inclusion criteria:
Inclusion criteria were: 1) RCTs of a parallel or crossover design comparing oral magnesium supplementation with placebo, no treatment, or usual care; 2) treatment and follow-up =8 weeks; 3) participants over 18 years old, with raised systolic blood pressure (SBP) =140 mmHg or diastolic blood pressure (DBP) =85 mmHg; 4) SBP and DBP reported at end of follow-up. We excluded trials where: participants were pregnant; received antihypertensive medication which changed during the study; or magnesium supplementation was combined with other interventions.

It doesn't matter what every individual was doing in regards to their diet and medications (with the proviso of changing antihypertensive meds during the study) as they would average out provided you had good randomisation and statistical power to reject the null hypothesis.


Are you suggesting we aren't aware HBP and HC are modifiable?? Scratches head...stating the obvious or errr??


Maybe not so obvious for some. That was in response to PP, who claims that hyperlipidaemia is not established as a cardiovascular risk factor. See what I was replying to?

...or niacin for high blood lipids ( which they still claim is so dangerous though never proven)


1. Bigger than what?
Bigger than most of the modifiable risk factors I listed

2. Old age? cardiovascular disease is most often wayyyyyyy before old age.
Did I imply it was mutually exclusive? You're more likely to have a heart attack if you're 80yrs old than if you're 8yrs old. Doensn't mean 30yr olds don't get heart attacks, or that you're old at 30.

3. Genetics? It's widely known in the medical science that genetics pre dispose you, sure, but they are not your fate.
But it's not risk factor we modify, until we have gene therapy.

The risk of cardiovascular disease will most likely, across the globe, have very little to do with your genetics than your daily diet, exposures, toxins, allergens, microbes, sense of self and exercise.
I don't think any cardiologist would agree that it has little to do with genetics.

4. Epigenetics.....Inheritable and reversible. And reversal starts with your diet.
To an extent perhaps. But limited.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 71
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 2:55:04 PM

I find this thread interesting, in that we've had a nurse? coming in apparently stating decisively that "none of that crap like omitting salt, changing diet, exercising" etcetc would "lower BP more than a few points at best". Really? Cause that's the first thing my doctor suggested! I guess a nurse knows better than a doctor??? Only problem was, I already fit said criteria


If it lowers it a few points, why wouldn't you try it? It's not just treating hypertension, it's treating your overall health too. Also, your blood pressure varies throughout the day, and can go up merely from the fact going to the doctor.

In terms of hypertension, you should be aware of how much difference it actually makes before you consider taking medications. Treating mild hypertension (systolic <160 or diastolic <100mmHg) has absolutely no mortality or morbidity benefit. Treatment of hypertension above this in over 60yr olds decreases your relative risk of of cardiovascular mortality/morbidity to to 0.72, and total mortality to 0.90.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 73
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 5:34:24 PM

I like people that don't talk out of both sides of their mouth, and all that. Thanks for your "advice" though.


It was a rhetorical question rather than advice. Advice implies I want someone to do something, and I don't really care about a stranger on the internet.


Odd, since you were one of the "others" advocating prescription meds above all else?


Even odder still...where exactly did I say that?

I've merely posted about the evidence. Did you even know why you're taking blood pressure pills (ie how much you expect you expect to extend your life or decrease your cardiovascular risks)?
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 74
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 5:35:02 PM

Magnesium and hypertension- the jury is out. ATP and hypertension...I don't know, but we're talking Mg and blood pressure; not Magnesium in the Krebs cycle producing ATP which might have an effect on blood pressure.

From my perspective, this has been answered more than once


And yet I'm the only one referring to levels of evidence

Message 71 - bottom. Plenty of info in the links provided


I don't know the study you're referring to

I didn't say it was a study -stated facts surrounding Avandia. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/health/29drug.html

There "was" a study completed but this is not what I was referring to in my original post.


but for the sake of argument, assuming it's correct

You have not denied nor confirmed, however I get the impression you work closely with diabetics.
Anyone who does should know this information. The info is correct.

then conventional medicine is doing exactly what it is supposed to. Would you have followed up 47,000 patients for 10yrs of taking herbal supplements, and then published the results of adverse reactions......
This was your response to a diabetes drug that killed over 47,000? The follow up process with conventional medicine?


Because you can live a perfectly healthy lifestyle and still develop hypertension, and I was talking specifically about hypertension

You can, but uncommon. Almost every single individual who will ever be diagnosed with HBP has underlying "causes" that need to be addressed. A HBP medication does not fix those.

Since when was HBP a beta blocker deficiency?
Since when was High Cholesterol a Statin deficiency?

Thank you for pointing out my goof with the Cochrane Review, not a study.


Maybe not so obvious for some. That was in response to PP, who claims that hyperlipidaemia is not established as a cardiovascular risk factor. See what I was replying to?

Sigh Yes Skyr I do and I stated as much. If you look back, I quoted PP's post and wrote this to you:
"I realize you are speaking to PP here hopefully you don't mind if I respond"

Peppermint petunias did not state high cholesterol was "Not" a cardiovascular risk factor.
She stated niacin was a natural remedy even though some tout it as dangerous.

or niacin for high blood lipids ( which they still claim is so dangerous though never proven)

Maybe not so obvious for some :-)


Bigger than what?
Bigger than most of the modifiable risk factors I listed

Scratches head....I believe you don't quite understand what I asked.


But it's not risk factor we modify, until we have gene therapy

What?


I don't think any cardiologist would agree that it has little to do with genetics

We are talking risk factors......risk factors are all about how you are living your life, exposures, well being or
lack of it, smoking, drugs, air pollution, toxins, microbes etc etc.


Epigenetics.....Inheritable and reversible. And reversal starts with your diet.
To an extent perhaps. But limited

This is an ambiguous response without claiming any responsibility for the response. I have to wonder how familiar
you are with the study.

I'd like your thoughts of the below paragraphs quoted from myself. These were all conveniently ignored and
unanswered from yourself. I'd appreciate you pointing out anything that does not make sense, I am in error of or
just plain doesn't jibe with your own knowledge.


We do have personalized medicine : Functional Medicine.
Whole systems medicine that focuses on the underlying biologic causes of disease. The latest advances in systems
biology and genomics make this very appealing for the millions of people who are sick, currently being treated
with conventional medicine; yet getting sicker.


Thoughts?


Pre diabetes is insulin resistance which can last for decades before full blown diabetes takes place. In that time most of those patients will need a beta blocker for HBP = Beta blockers directly make insulin resistance worse
Most of those patients will need a statin = Statins drugs directly make insulin resistance worse.

Speaking of cholesterol, most conventional medical physicians do not test the particle size, they spotlight the
Total, HDL and LDL levels only. Small particle size equals insulin resistance. Statins make this worse, they do not heal a thing


Thoughts?

3.
The oral hypoglycemic drug, glyberide also makes insulin resistance worse, yet widely prescribed


Thoughts?

4
Millions of patients eventually submit to insulin injections, which causes weight gain, raises BP and cholesterol even MORE, causes depression (especially in women ) While our depressed, overweight patient is taking HBP and high cholesterol medications..... both those conditions are now made worse by injecting insulin


??

5.
You are aware of the ACCORD database. NEJM 2008, involved 10,000 patients who were subject to blood sugar lowering medications for diabetes. The patients who had their blood sugar lowered the MOST by conventional medications; had a higher rate of death.
The study was stopped after 3.5 years by the NIH because of this


??

I respect your position Skyr. We are in the same line of work simply different planes, both (hopefully) trying to achieve the same goal. Peppermint Petunias said it best - To do no Harm.

That should be our focus.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 75
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 5:56:52 PM

From my perspective, this has been answered more than once[/qyote]

I'm no statistician, but that smacks of being very naughty with your variables.


Message 71 - bottom. Plenty of info in the links provided


This is what we mean when we talk about levels of evidence:
Ia - Evidence from Meta-anlysis of Randomised Controlled Trials
Ib - Evidence from at least one Randomised Controlled Trials
IIa - Evidence from at least one well designed controlled trial which is not randomised
IIb- Evidence from at least one well designed experimental trial
III - Evidence from case, correlation, and comparative studies.
IV - Evidence from a panel of experts


I didn't say it was a study -stated facts surrounding Avandia. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/health/29drug.html


The NY times articles was referring to studies done on Avandia. What do you mean it's a study but not a study? Or do you mean it becomes fact once it's published by the NY times?


This was your response to a diabetes drug that killed over 47,000? The follow up process with conventional medicine?


Sorry, I thought you meant 47,000 participants. Bit hard to comment on something that I haven't read.

Like I said, show us the actual study and the level of evidence. It seems pretty high- are you sure they controlled for other factors, or did they just use total mortality of diabetics in a study?


I respect your position Skyr. We are in the same line of work simply different
planes, both (hopefully) trying to achieve the same goal. Peppermint Petunias said it best - To do no Harm.


That's why I posted on the evidence. If you're going to be prescribing someone Magnesium or Omega 3 or whatever else, it should have a benefit greater than the risks.
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 76
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/17/2012 6:15:20 PM
Awl Ryee Tee Then....Hoooboy. At this point I think I'm only interested in your responses to the 5 paragraph questions
in my last post.

Please take the time to read clearly what you are responding to and read links that have been provided.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 77
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 4:37:21 AM
Young, and full of himself possibly.^^^^^^^^^

Most of us have been at one time I guess.


What risks are in natural mineral rich foods we all should be eating?Unless they have pesticides of course.
Potato skins, beans, nuts ( unsalted) spinach, bananas ,plain yogurt, avocados ect.
OR UNLESS you have another medical issue that would cause you to avoid them?

We all cant afford wild caught salmon 4-5 times a week so wild salmon oil IS food.
Garlic and herbs are food as are spices.
Cayenne and ginger ect.

Many studies on olive leaf extract with zero side effects noted when used for that purpose and not a viral/bacterial infections which can cause "die off" headaches.


Calming aromatherapy can help you through a stressful time and would/could lower your blood pressure esp the ones that work on the adrenal cortex quickly such as clary sage and geranium.

Yoga.Meditation in combination with the oils .For some prayer..music and color therapy.
BREATHING deeply.

I personally cannot get all the magnesium my body requires without supplementation at times.
Some people can.


I find this thread interesting, in that we've had a nurse? coming in apparently stating decisively that "none of that crap like omitting salt, changing diet, exercising" etcetc would "lower BP more than a few points at best". Really? Cause that's the first thing my doctor suggested! I guess a nurse knows better than a doctor???

^^^^^^^^Really

If you observe most nurses in MY area many are obese and have other heath issues themselves that could be corrected by a proper diet.
(going back to the nurse that told me I NEED fluoride in my water to be healthy and one said I need whole wheat).
One said fat causes high triglycerides to my son, when its sugar/grains/booze ect that actually do and NOT fat from a natural source.

Really? NEED whole wheat or fluoride for a fainting spell?





 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 78
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 4:57:02 AM

At this point I think I'm only interested in your responses to the 5 paragraph questions
in my last post.


I had to go to work, apologies if your questions aren't on my priority list. Answering forum posts doesn't exactly pay the bills.


You can, but uncommon. Almost every single individual who will ever be diagnosed with HBP has underlying "causes" that need to be addressed. A HBP medication does not fix those.


Utter hyperbole. Hypertension has multifactorial causes, but many people with perfectly healthy lifestyles do develop essential hypertension.


But it's not risk factor we modify, until we have gene therapy
What?


You figured out a way of altering your DNA or choose your parents? If you're born with a genetic propensity to developing cardiovascular disease, you can't modify your genome, you modify the risk factors that you can- smoking, diet, exercise, cholesterol, hypertension etc etc. And please don't confuse epigenetics with genomics either. You might be able to switch on/off a few genes from lifestyle, but it doesn't alter your genome, and it doesn't alter the fact that much of it is imprinted in the foetal environment.


We are talking risk factors......risk factors are all about how you are living your life, exposures, well being or
lack of it, smoking, drugs, air pollution, toxins, microbes etc etc.


Why do you think doctors take a family history of heart disease when someone comes to hospital possible cardiac chest pain? Are they just being nosey or is it because it is a risk factor?


We do have personalized medicine : Functional Medicine.
Whole systems medicine that focuses on the underlying biologic causes of disease. The latest advances in systems
biology and genomics make this very appealing for the millions of people who are sick, currently being treated
with conventional medicine; yet getting sicker.
Thoughts?


My thoughts? I think it's fine. What do you want me to say? Part holistic and public health thrown in for good measure. Was I arguing that people shouldn't lead healthy lifestyles to reduce disease? Or that we should not be holistic in our approach to treating patients? My whole argument is that people need to know if something is effective, how effective it is, and to weigh up the benefits vs the risk of treatments. There is no point going on antihypertensives if the side effects or the individual contraindications result in little benefit, or it doesn't fit with the values of the patient.



Pre diabetes is insulin resistance which can last for decades before full blown diabetes takes place. In that time most of those patients will need a beta blocker for HBP = Beta blockers directly make insulin resistance worse
Most of those patients will need a statin = Statins drugs directly make insulin resistance worse.


That's why doctors select medications based on the individuals personal and medical history. Beta blockers aren't used in asthmatics either. For diabetes, it increases bloods sugars, but it's not an absolute contra-indication. They might suffer from cardiac arrythmias or have CCF, in which case beta blockers would have a mortality benefit. If you're an Olympic shooter, you'd be disqualified for being on beta blockers.


3. The oral hypoglycemic drug, glyberide also makes insulin resistance worse, yet widely prescribed


According to what study, and how much is the effect?


4
Millions of patients eventually submit to insulin injections, which causes weight gain, raises BP and cholesterol even MORE, causes depression (especially in women ) While our depressed, overweight patient is taking HBP and high cholesterol medications..... both those conditions are now made worse by injecting insulin


So what is your solution? Don't inject insulin? Die of HONK or DKA? If your solution is to simply to modify diet and exercise, you've never dealt with diabetes in the real world. Works in mild cases, but unrealistic for most long term diabetics.


5.
You are aware of the ACCORD database. NEJM 2008, involved 10,000 patients who were subject to blood sugar lowering medications for diabetes. The patients who had their blood sugar lowered the MOST by conventional medications; had a higher rate of death.
The study was stopped after 3.5 years by the NIH because of this??


No I'm not. But give me the citation for the study and I'll have a look at it myself. A higher rate of death than what? Diabetics who are not on any diabetic medications? Really?

I can't think of anything worse than being a diabetologist, but you got me curious about that one.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 79
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 5:23:08 AM

Young, and full of himself possibly.^^^^^^^^^

Most of us have been at one time I guess.


Sure, I'm not going argue with that.

But I'm sorry you feel bad that I pointed out you haven't bothered reading or understanding the articles you cut and pasted in msg 61.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 80
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 6:10:57 AM


Functional medicine would have gone something like this - - Same patient would have had clear symptoms their
blood sugar/insulin may be a problem. An insulin response test would have been ordered. Results would have shown their insulin was too high and blood sugar too low. Considering that result, an A1C would have been ordered,
a total cholesterol would have been ordered and particle size checked, A full metabolic profile, a comprehensive background on any possible vitamin/mineral deficiencies, toxins, leaky gut problems - - you name it. If it can be tested and it can be the cause of the patients symptoms.....it will be checked.


I missed this in my earlier post. In this example, which you use for functional medicine, how is it any different to an extreme version of conventional medicine? Instead of correcting a variable and being able to measure the cause and effect, you're trying to correct every physiological parameter that can be tested for. Maybe if you do, you might lower blood pressure or improve insulin resistance- but show us some level 1 evidence that is the case. I'm not saying it doesn't, but surely you can do better than posting website links as proof? Has anyone done a randomised controlled trial? A case control study even? Or is it just level 3 evidence?

Also, what reference ranges are used when deciding if something is deficient? The normal range of a healthy population? Most lab tests use 2SDs from the mean, which means that if you do 20 tests, on average you'd get one outside the the reference range, even if there is nothing wrong with you. And is more of a good thing always a good thing?


And yet I'm the only one referring to levels of evidence

Message 71 - bottom. Plenty of info in the links provided


A study is where you create an experiment to test your null and alternative hypothesis , and to minimise confounding factors and biases. Message 71 links are not studies, or even anything resembling evidence. It is a link to a whole lot of websites promoting something. Which may or may not have merit, but I was asking for levels of evidence. You might want to revisit the scientific method.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 81
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 7:44:03 AM

Why do you think doctors take a family history of heart disease when someone comes to hospital possible cardiac chest pain? Are they just being nosey or is it because it is a risk factor?

^^^^^^^^^^^
If you follow the same lifestyle or it is a genetic factor it's very important.

In some cases high blood pressure can save lives.
You do of course know that one of the the reasons so many African Americans have a genetic predisposition to high blood pressure is because it saved their lives being hauled like animals dehydrated on boats.

The ability to retain water/ most with high blood pressure in those conditions survived if otherwise not to old/young or frail from other things..

Mortality from salt and water deprivation, accompanied by excessive electrolyte loss from sweating, diarrhea and vomit during the brutal voyage across the sea, was reduced in those with the genetic good fortune to have high blood pressure.


But I'm sorry you feel bad that I pointed out you haven't bothered reading or understanding the articles you cut and pasted in msg 61.

^^^^^^^^^^

I have no reason to "feel bad"
You do not have time to type everything or live for the forums?WELL, neither do I as if I should or could refer to over 300 books and articles I have read and search each page and reference then type them for YOU? Over 12 years of study and sharing with and from others that are in the natural and westernized health field.

Don't clam to know everything..You seem to think you do.

Also do not beleive everything I read in a book just because its in a book.
I know the respected people in the field verses the quacks.
I gather as much information from respected sources and if its is a general accepted "natural" way of treating a condition from said reliable sources then
I tend to go with them and try them on myself or share the information with friends or clients that try them with a Drs approval of course.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 82
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 8:27:00 AM

In some cases high blood pressure can save lives.
You do of course know that one of the the reasons so many African Americans have a genetic predisposition to high blood pressure is because it saved their lives being hauled like animals dehydrated on boats.


There are many genetic conditions that confer survival benefits, and many that are not immediately apparent. Sickle cell anaemia for malaria resistance, haemochromatosis might confer resistance to iron deficiency, the propensity to diabetes and obesity have been thought to confer survival benefits during famine or long voyages- perhaps why it's so prevalent in the Pacific Island population. Many of which are not useful in modern society.


WELL, neither do I as if I should or could refer to over 300 books and articles I have read and search each page and reference then type them for YOU? Over 12 years of study and sharing with and from others that are in the natural and westernized health field.


I asked for evidence. You posted a whole lot of references, which I pointed out neither supports your position, nor have you actually read.


Don't clam to know everything..You seem to think you do.


I don't, that's why I asked you and allgoodnamesaretaken to provide some evidence. You haven't been able to. I had to look up Mg myself, for instance. I pointed out the different levels of evidence, and all I get are links to various websites and cut and paste without actually reading the content.


Also do not beleive everything I read in a book just because its in a book.


Neither do I , and that's why I posted Level 1a and 1b evidence, which I sourced from medline (and because I was lazy, Cochrane). I was only asking other posters do the same. If it works, great, then I'll file the information away and use it.


I gather as much information from respected sources and if its is a general accepted "natural" way of treating a condition from said reliable sources then
I tend to go with them and try them on myself or share the information with friends or clients that try them with a Drs approval of course.


You might need to learn how to discern a respected source from one that's not. In particular how to read a clinical study instead of relying on others do it for you.
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 83
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 9:33:00 AM

I had to go to work, apologies if your questions aren't on my priority list

Riiiight. Ruffles your hair.....I see right through you :-)


Hypertension has multifactorial causes

Mhmm. HBP medications do not fix any of those does it?


many people with perfectly healthy lifestyles do develop essential hypertension

It never ceases to amaze me what some people consider "Perfectly Healthy"


If you're born with a genetic propensity to developing cardiovascular disease, you can't modify your genome, you modify the risk factors that you can- smoking, diet, exercise, cholesterol, hypertension etc etc

I have said the above numerous times in numerous posts. I'm well aware we cannot modify our genome Skyr, sigh, I have said this here, I have also said this several times in another thread with you as well.


And please don't confuse epigenetics with genomics either. You might be able to switch on/off a few genes from lifestyle, but it doesn't alter your genome

Perhaps going back and reviewing the prior posts would be helpful. This is a bit frustrating responding to your quotes, which are quotes I have "already" made myself.


We are talking risk factors......risk factors are all about how you are living your life, exposures, well being or
lack of it, smoking, drugs, air pollution, toxins, microbes etc etc.

Why do you think doctors take a family history of heart disease when someone comes to hospital possible cardiac chest pain? Are they just being nosey or is it because it is a risk factor?

Please read your quote above, then read mine directly above.......Your response is out in left field considering what
you are responding to. Makes zero sense in reference.


My thoughts? I think it's fine

Well I'll be slaps knee.....


That's why doctors select medications based on the individuals personal and medical history. Beta blockers aren't used in asthmatics either. For diabetes, it increases bloods sugars, but it's not an absolute contra-indication

Prescribing a beta blocker for high blood pressure to a diabetic patient is unethical. The "Cause" of the HBP should be the focus and treated. " The Asthmatics/beta blocker reference is irrelevant.


The oral hypoglycemic drug, glyberide also makes insulin resistance worse, yet widely prescribed

According to what study, and how much is the effect?

Stares.....
How on earth can you not know this about oral hypoglycemics? Glyburide also comes with a black box warning
that it "Increases" heart attacks which is exactly what you are trying to prevent by giving it to the patient.

Glyburide = Lowers blood sugar = Which sends Insulin even "Higher" = Higher Insulin production wears the pancreas
Even "Harder" = Pushing Blood pressure even "Higher" = Pushes Fat storage even "Harder"

Glyburide does not "Fix" the "Cause" of the problem, it treats a "Symptom" Of a larger Problem.
You should be more than familiar with all of the above.


So what is your solution? Don't inject insulin? Die of HONK or DKA?

"Treat" the "Causes" of high insulin "Before" the patient becomes a diabetic in the "First Place"

Heal. Treat the underlying Causes not the symptoms


If your solution is to simply to modify diet and exercise, you've never dealt with diabetes in the real world. Works in mild cases, but unrealistic for most long term diabetics

This quote alone has me concerned I'm debating an issue with someone who is not well educated in this regard.
This, and the earlier quote a few days back that diabetics need to "Lose ALOT of Weight" before insulin sensitivity takes place should have been enough of a red flag.

I should have seen this sooner.


You are aware of the ACCORD database. NEJM 2008, involved 10,000 patients who were subject to blood sugar lowering medications for diabetes. The patients who had their blood sugar lowered the MOST by conventional medications; had a higher rate of death.
The study was stopped after 3.5 years by the NIH because of this??

No I'm not.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0802743

Those 10,000 patients with diabetes were to receive intensive or regular therapy to "Lower"their blood sugar.
The hypoglycemics (Such as Glyburide) were used. The patients who had their blood sugar lowered the "Most" from those drugs - - had higher risk of death. The NIH jumped in and stopped the study after 3.5 years because of those
deaths and heart attacks.

If treating diabetes by lowering blood sugar, with hypoglycemics, is the "Choice of Conventional Medicine and the Way to Go" Why is it not HEALING people?

I believe I've stated and repeated enough here. This is going nowhere and I'd hate to see it keep going that way.

I stand by my suggested natural remedies - - I would also advocate Peppermint Petunias suggestions

1. Magnesium
2. Fish oil (Omega 3's)
3. Hawthorn Leaf Extract ......Just to name a few.
 Just___Jim
Joined: 10/21/2012
Msg: 84
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 10:26:08 AM

I don't, that's why I asked you and allgoodnamesaretaken to provide some evidence. You haven't been able to. I had to look up Mg myself, for instance. I pointed out the different levels of evidence, and all I get are links to various websites and cut and paste without actually reading the content.


And it seems you won't. As these folks seem to have only experimented on themselves & friends with, I guessing with good results. And neither has give give you any scientific evidence other then a level 3 at best to back it, or you can read all the countless other books at the same level 3. So who do you believe want works best for you?

I know many of the natural only health folks think there is a conspiracy from the medical & scientific community but until the 'proof is in the pudding' the jury is still out in the cure or prevention of.

imo, I trust science, good healthy lifestyles, & not only this 'silver bullet' many hope will cure them or others in the only way.

And the only recommendation I will give is 'The Blood Sugar Solution' by Mark Hyman,MD. as he has balance medicine,diet, natural treatments as partners in good health. Cheers
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 85
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 11:08:54 AM

. HBP medications do not fix any of those does it?


I never said they did. That's why in my original post, I mentioned some of the modifiable risk factors in regards to hypertension, like weight, exercise and salt intake. And then there are the ones you can't modify, like aging.


Perhaps going back and reviewing the prior posts would be helpful. This is a bit frustrating responding to your quotes, which are quotes I have "already" made myself.


It certainly is, because I was responding to an ambiguous post by PP, and I merely stated that hyperlipidaemia, smoking, and hypertension are modifiable risk factors. There might be bigger risk factors, like your genes, but they are not modifiable. You jumped in and asked me 'bigger than what', in msg 77, so I told you. Several non-modifiable risk factors are as important, if not more important than the modifiable risk factors I mentioned. However, they are not useful because you can't do much about them.
Then you started scratching your head and saying that I don't understand what you asked. Maybe I dont'. What are you asking?


Prescribing a beta blocker for high blood pressure to a diabetic patient is unethical. The "Cause" of the HBP should be the focus and treated. " The Asthmatics/beta blocker reference is irrelevant.


Really? If they have heart failure and a propensity to arrythmias? There are tradeoffs and risk/benefits with every medication. It is not an absolute contraindication. Perhaps you care to tell us the extent of the effect of beta blockers on blood sugars, vs the extent of beta blockers in mortality/morbidity after, say a heart attack.


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0802743

Those 10,000 patients with diabetes were to receive intensive or regular therapy to "Lower"their blood sugar.
The hypoglycemics (Such as Glyburide) were used. The patients who had their blood sugar lowered the "Most" from those drugs - - had higher risk of death. The NIH jumped in and stopped the study after 3.5 years because of those
deaths and heart attacks.


*argh*
I've only had a glance and it is already obvious you're trying to extrapolate information which isn't part of the study, and furthermore, you don't even have a non-treatment control to compare it to. Two arms of the study- one involving a target HbA1c of 7-7.9% and another of below 6%. That is what they are testing- whether intensive glycaemic control is more beneficial than standard glycaemic control.
The only conclusion you can come to is that the more intense control had a worse outcome. Both arms of the study used the *same* hypoglycaemic agents, listed in Table 2. That's all it tells you. To say that the drugs lead to a worse outcome, you need another arm of the study with no treatment, or if you wish, whatever treatment you want to initiate in terms of functional medicine. How you come to a conclusion about a specific drug used in both arms of the study like Glibenclamide is beyond me.

Stopping the study at 3.5yrs is standard practice once you have reached clinical equipoise- if it's obvious that one treatment is better than another, it becomes unethical to continue the study.


"Treat" the "Causes" of high insulin "Before" the patient becomes a diabetic in the "First Place"
Heal. Treat the underlying Causes not the symptoms


You must live in Disneyland. Come to South Auckland and set up an endocrine clinic there. In an ideal world, no one would be fat, they would all exercise and eat the right foods, and we can stop them all becoming diabetic in the first place.

I like the idea of world peace too.


If your solution is to simply to modify diet and exercise, you've never dealt with diabetes in the real world. Works in mild cases, but unrealistic for most long term diabetics.
This quote alone has me concerned I'm debating an issue with someone who is not well educated in this regard.


Like I said, work in the real world, where people are people. Where not everyone is a motivated, educated, hypochondriac with the same cultural norms as the white suburban upper middle class. Fat is associated with wealth and affluence in some cultures (ever flown to Samoa? The plane reeks of Kentucky Fried Chicken- buckets of it).
Now get them to follow your instructions in terms of diet (everyone loves eating 7 or 8 servings of fruit and veges everyday right?), lifestyle, and all the macronutrients you advocate, and they might not become diabetic, based on your lifestyle prescription. Kind of like curing obesity by telling people to eat well and exercise. Doesn't mean you don't try, but it has limited effect in the real world.


I stand by my suggested natural remedies - - I would also advocate Peppermint Petunias suggestions

1. Magnesium
2. Fish oil (Omega 3's)
3. Hawthorn Leaf Extract ......Just to name a few.


Like I said, post some evidence they work on hypertension. You haven't posted a single study except for the ACCORD trial, which you haven't even interpreted correctly.





 MrCorBoaz
Joined: 8/22/2012
Msg: 86
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 12:13:47 PM
Aside from dietary changes are there any herbal, or homeopathic treatments?

Dietary changes are CRUCIAL no matter what,as is consistent exercise. This cannot be overemphasized. Having said that these foods,supplements and herbs help reduce hypertension.
1)CoQ10-100mg
2)Omega 3-6-9/fish oil- balanced...don't worry 9's are abundant in most everyday foods, most supplements with 3 have 6-Salmon is a great source as are sardines, halibut,scallops, shrimp and tuna but flax seeds and walnuts are highest in Omega3
3)Hawthorne berry extract-Hawthorn also has positive inotropic and beta-blocking effects, along with antioxidant and anti inflammatory affects.
4)Garlic-Garlic is great for many things but note the way it helps, garlic is a mild natural blood thinner,relaxes vessels
5)nuts-Walnuts, almonds, hazelnuts, peanuts, pecans, pine nuts and pistachio nuts all are Omega 3 rich,especially walnuts which are also high in magnesium
6)potassium-24 mmol ---best if gotten from dark leafy greens,white beans, bananas, nuts,dried apricots, acorn sqaush,salmon(also great for Omega 3)avocados,,white mushrooms and skim milk low fat yogurt.
7)Folic acid
8)Celery/parsely-eat it ...get it in capsule form..or both...easy to make meals that include it
9)magnesium-300mg in foods or supplement, best in foods(bran wheat/rice/oats,Dried Coriande,Chives,Spearmint,Basil,Sage,Savory,SEEDS(Sqaush/watermelon/pumpkin/flax/sesame,sunflower),nuts (Brazil,Almonds,Cashews)molasses,soycocoa
10)Grapefruit/vitamin C rich fruit...or vitamin C supplement(especially ascorbic C) Red Grapefruit is best
11)Amino acids L-Arginine and L-Tuarine

Of course many of these things are best used in foods so cooking with and eating are great as well as using them as supplements in pill form. It goes without saying that not smoking and refraining from more than 1 glass alcoholic beverage are essential for anything to work along with staying away from other bad foods. Obviously regular exercise is very very very important. I also suggest staying away from cooking with butter and grease. Olive oil is a SPLENDID thing to cook with. Eliminate sugars and caffeine....use Stevia instead of sugar for sweetener if you must have coffee do decaf with Stevia.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 87
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/18/2012 5:47:02 PM


I stand by my suggested natural remedies - - I would also advocate Peppermint Petunias suggestions

1. Magnesium
2. Fish oil (Omega 3's)
3. Hawthorn Leaf Extract ......Just to name a few.


Like I said, post some evidence they work on hypertension. You haven't posted a single study except for the ACCORD trial, which you haven't even interpreted correctly.


Here is one study showing an effect of Hawthorn extract on blood pressure. Unfortunately the numbers are extremely low (n=92), there is limited information in the abstract (aside from saying it was a randomised placebo controlled trial), and it doesn't say how big the effect is.
http://tinyurl.com/cedqyna

And another one on its effect of blood pressure in diabetics:
http://tinyurl.com/c5bn2jr

Note that although it showed a statistically significant difference, the difference is small: 2.6mmHg in diastolic BP, and no difference in systolic. Again the study is very small (n=79). The main problem with this study is that much of the hypertensive population was already on an antihypertensive drug. Perhaps there might be a greater difference if the only treatment was Hawthorn extact.

The only conclusion one can come to after doing a literature search, is that there is very limited number of studies of Hawthorn on hypertension. It doesn't mean it's effective or not effective. On the other hand, there are plenty of good level 1 studies on its role in heart failure, where it has been shown to have a clinical benefit (mainly on symptom control rather than mortality/morbidity).

As I said before, once it's proven, and the benefit is big enough to make a clinically significant difference, it's no longer alternative, it's just medicine. Like aspirin, which started life as Willow Bark extract, or beta-lactam antibiotics, which were originally isolated from mould.

Now that wasn't so hard was it?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 88
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/22/2012 4:54:32 PM

Does anyone have any alternative to outrageously priced medication for high blood pressure?

Yep.

Hope, its free and extremely affective.


Ted Kaptchuk in his home office in Cambridge
An ingenious researcher finds the real ingredients of “fake” medicine.
by Cara Feinberg
January-February 2013


Two weeks into Ted Kaptchuk’s first randomized clinical drug trial, nearly a third of his 270 subjects complained of awful side effects. All the patients had joined the study hoping to alleviate severe arm pain: carpal tunnel, tendinitis, chronic pain in the elbow, shoulder, wrist. In one part of the study, half the subjects received pain-reducing pills; the others were offered acupuncture treatments. And in both cases, people began to call in, saying they couldn’t get out of bed.

The pills were making them sluggish, the needles caused swelling and redness; some patients’ pain ballooned to nightmarish levels. “The side effects were simply amazing,” Kaptchuk explains; curiously, they were exactly what patients had been warned their treatment might produce. But even more astounding, most of the other patients reported real relief, and those who received acupuncture felt even better than those on the anti-pain pill.

These were exceptional findings: no one had ever proven that acupuncture worked better than painkillers. But Kaptchuk’s study didn’t prove it, either. The pills his team had given patients were actually made of cornstarch; the “acupuncture” needles were retractable shams that never pierced the skin.

The study wasn’t aimed at comparing two treatments. It was designed to compare two fakes.

Although Kaptchuk, an associate professor of medicine, has spent his career studying these mysterious human reactions, he doesn’t argue that you can simply “think yourself better.” “Sham treatment won’t shrink tumors or cure viruses,” he says.

But researchers have found that placebo treatments—interventions with no active drug ingredients—can stimulate real physiological responses, from changes in heart rate and blood pressure to chemical activity in the brain, in cases involving pain, depression, anxiety, fatigue, and even some symptoms of Parkinson’s...

...In order to legitimize his findings to mainstream practitioners, the results must be expertly quantified, he acknowledges. “We have to transform the art of medicine into the science of care.”


read more at: http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/01/the-placebo-phenomenon
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 89
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Posted: 12/22/2012 10:06:09 PM

These were exceptional findings: no one had ever proven that acupuncture worked better than painkillers.


Interesting article, except for this bit, which is debatable. There are plenty of RCTs that have shown acupuncture to be more effective than placebo or sham treatments for certain types of pain. Whether they work 'better' than regular painkillers would depend on what painkiller it is being compared to and the nature of the pain.

This study is not looking at the effectiveness of acupuncture, it is looking at two different types of placebos. It is interesting to note that the sham acupuncture is more effective than the sham pill, which either means a greater placebo effect, or possibly the mechanism of stimulating the skin has an analgesic effect. You could theorise that it could be how acupuncture exerts an analgesic effect- by stimulating the skin and perhaps the release of endorphins.
 Just___Jim
Joined: 10/21/2012
Msg: 91
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/23/2012 3:32:30 PM

We are in the same line of work simply different planes, both (hopefully) trying to achieve the same goal. Peppermint Petunias said it best - To do no Harm. That should be our focus.


Focus! Oh contra, the Harm is making people think that taking these excessive vits,herbs,minerals is all it takes will cure what ills you in this unregulated industry!
And folks who are paying for all these vits etc, when there is no 3 level proof they actually to work for them either!

But if its your job to sell this stuff to folks or tell them who thinks it will work for them,then I guess your job is done,ka-cling! $$$$$
imo, if it's you need to get attention, etc first, best prove it first with sound evidence.

We are all waiting.
 Celje
Joined: 6/18/2012
Msg: 92
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/25/2012 11:09:21 PM
Eat a carrot or two, not rocket science.
 DragonBits
Joined: 1/6/2012
Msg: 93
Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/26/2012 4:02:59 AM
IMO magnesium has little effect on blood pressure. I base this on the reading I have done and personal experience.

I am very sensitive to a lack of magnesium and take up to 500 mg a day. If I don't take supplements, I get muscle cramps, usually within a few days to a week. The other related effect is my pain / recovery from exercise related DOMS is much greater without magnesium supplements. But I have never seen any effect on my blood pressure, which is around 120/70, but I have seen it vary from 90/60 – 150/80 depending on factors like stress.

Exercises, losing weight and testosterone therapy seemed to be key to getting my BP down from 130/80 – 110/70, but I think average is little higher since it can still spike up under stress. A Doctor last week measured my BP at 117/70.

Testosterone therapy boosted my TEST blood test numbers from about 300 ng/dl to 1000-1200 ng/dl. It helps build muscle and metabolize fat. It strengthens bone. It can also boost energy and mood, and may play a role in memory. There was no doubt in my mind it boosted energy, mood and libido. Of course when you can exercise more then other benefits follow and it's hard to separate cause and effect.

Some studies have linked higher testosterone levels with higher levels of HDL (good) cholesterol, lower blood pressure, better natural clot-busting ability, greater sensitivity to insulin, and less inflammation.

But this is only for men and the effect of Testosterone on us.

Back to magnesium, since magnesium is involved with many cell functions, deficiency could have other more subtle effects, but I have never noticed them.

Interesting, when I spend a long time in Thailand, I don't seem to need to take magnesium. My diet is nearly 100% different and of course their soil is different also.

I think limiting salt is the biggest factor that one can control with BP, along with exercises and keeping your weight in the normal range. I wouldn't think I need to mention that avoiding smoking is another key, but this is the internet and it is a forum, stating the obvious is required.

Unfortunately, HBP takes a long time to develop, and the reasons like harder more narrow arteries are likely irreversible. Certainly it takes a long time for something like exercise to lower BP, and once developed there may be no way to lower it a lot without drugs. I note many on here are younger than 45, and for a very active 35 year old they are just too young to really encounter HBP that typically comes from aging in the USA. The older one is when first aware of your HBP I would think the more difficult it will be for diet / lifestyle changes alone to make a difference. Not that you shouldn't make changes, but don't expect quick results nor to be able to repair a lifetime of damage.

I do take another supplement AREDS advanced formula (AREDS2) that is a mixture of antioxidants and zinc that the National Institutes of Health studied and recommends to significantly reduce the risk of advanced AMD (age-related macular degeneration). The theory is that these antioxidants reduces oxidative stress-induced endothelial dysfunction. While I don't have AMD and no studies have shown AREDS to be effective on anything other than AMD, both of my parents have had AMD and IMO it's likely antioxidants will prove to be a beneficial to other aging organs. The NIH has a new study called AREDS2 that was in 2006. Results are expected in 2013. I am not sure either AREDS or AREDS2 is helping me or just a waste of money, it's a bet that it can't hurt and it will likely take another 20 years of study before anything positive is proven.

Just google AREDS or AREDS2 if you are interested in the studies or the specific formula.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 12/26/2012 9:38:15 AM

IMO magnesium has little effect on blood pressure. I base this on the reading I have done and personal experience

Thats why most of us did not post just one thing.
Magnesium lowers mine and many I know and helps with most muscle tension issues also.
Amazing for headaches, tension and some migraines..again the proper form must be taken.
Most reputable Drs of natural medicine agree magnesium is effective.

Potassium to sodium intake is a very important factor and proper weight/lifestyle imperative so no debate with me on that.

The thing with magnesium is the correct FORM and dosage must be taken to be noticeably effective and for SOME in 2- 3 doses throughout the day. It is a very inexpensive thing to try.


You can't just walk into GNC and ask for 350 mg of magnesium in tablets, take one a day and boom its lowered.

Have you ever tried Damiana? It opens the blood vessels in many ( popular mainly as a sexual aid) Have had quite a few mention lowered BP as a good side effect.

There is no one thing for everyone and some need many things to change in order to lower BP naturally.
 activemelaney
Joined: 9/8/2012
Msg: 95
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/26/2012 10:18:03 AM

IMO magnesium has little effect on blood pressure


Magnesium is a bit of a black box when it comes to BP. Not much consensus other than we need it. The issue is trying to isolate it as a variable. If you are in Thailand then you are eating more fruits, vegetables and, as important. LESS dairy. My own non-scientific anecdotal experience over the decades is that cutting out milk, cheese, etc. is a positive all around and reduces some joint issues.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 96
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Natural remedies for high Blood pressure?
Posted: 12/26/2012 2:22:44 PM

But I have never seen any effect on my blood pressure, which is around 120/70, but I have seen it vary from 90/60 – 150/80 depending on factors like stress.


In case anyone missed my post earlier, here is a Cochrane review of Mg and hypertension
http://tinyurl.com/cj8cho7

It may or may not make a difference, but at the moment, the evidence is a little iffy..
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