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 NeapTide
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 401
Wally-Mart SUXPage 17 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
In my garden, I have a patch of voracious blackberries. If left alone, they will smother my tomato plants, my strawberries, my sweetpeas and even my poor plum tree and rhodie shrub. They will cover my ivy and my grass with equal tenacity. They will climb up into my evergreen trees and try to bring down the old giants. I love their delicious berries but if I didn't control them by cutting them back, none of my other plants would have a chance. If I let them run unchecked, I will have nothing but blackberry shrubs. Sound familar?
 EShadowgirl78
Joined: 8/3/2008
Msg: 402
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 1:09:51 PM
I'll continue to shop at walmart, simply because it is affordable. We have a super walmart here in my town, and no other businesses have suffered. Everyone has their loyal places to go for shopping...Walmart is mine. I can afford things, without killing my checking account, and have money left over to live.

So until the economy goes back to normal....or i win the lottery(haha)..I'll stick to Walmart, and my local grocery store for everything I need.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 403
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History
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 2:43:34 PM
Hank:

I hear what you're saying, and I understand where you're coming from, believe me I do. BUT, I don't think we can realistically expect every single paid job that exists to pay enough for a single person to survive on. It would cause a great loss of jobs, an increase in pricing, and it would KILL small business startups, IMO. Think about it...the McDonalds where you buy your 99 cent cheeseburger...the movie theater with it's ticket person, 3-5 concession stand workers and half-dozen ushers, etc etc. All those people making, say, $21k/yr, what would that do to prices? What about the guy that wants to start a small business, say a lawn-mowing company. How hard would it be to start a brand new business, which typically takes a loss in teh first few years, anyway, if the owner had to pay anyone he hired $21k off the bat no matter what they did and how much they worked? I just don't see it as tenable in today's economy, nor do I especially think it "right." 30 year old guy wants to flip burgers or sit in a parking lot attendant's booth all day, why SHOULD he make as much as someone out busting their ass doing hard work all day, or someone who spent 4 years and a ton of money on college?
 kissable0325
Joined: 10/15/2007
Msg: 404
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 4:07:54 PM




Working as a cashier at Wal Mart, like working the counter at McDonalds, is NOT a career, it's a job often done by high school kids and IMO it's beyond silly to expect "a living wage" from each and every job that exists

This is simply an excuse these corporations use to continue to pay substandard wages.

LOL it's not an excuse it's common sense. An unskilled, uneducated laborer is NOT worth the same salary as someone with a college degree or trade certification, for example.

You're never going to win this argument with this crowd. Some of these people will be the first to tell you that the janitor at Wal-Mart should make just as much as the CEO of the company. They will tell you that an 18-year-old kid, fresh out of high school should be paid enough to feed a family of 4 while pumping gas for a living. None of these people understand the concept of a ladder and how you're supposed to climb that ladder to a better lifestyle. They think that that better lifestyle is a god-given right and they demand that it be given to them without much effort on their own part. And Hank can disagree all he wants, but it just shows his ignorance of economics and how to run an effective business.

These people have obviously never heard of Jim Rohn and his philosophy on life and career. And six years from now, they will still be working in the same dead-end jobs, complaining about the same "injustices" that they perceive around them and wondering why their bank accounts are still just as deflated as they were six years before. And their arguments will still be just as idiotic.
 NeapTide
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 405
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:13:14 PM
They will tell you that an 18-year-old kid, fresh out of high school should be paid enough to feed a family of 4 while pumping gas for a living.
Every argument has a counter argument so I guess yours is that a family of four should be paid as little as an 18 year old kid, fresh out of school, right?

There are people working at Wal-Mart because that is the best they can get right now. To say they are not entitled to adequate health care or a livable wage because they choose to work at Wal-Mart is adding insult to injury. No one in this thread said that a janitor should make as much as a CEO, that is hyperbole and it serves no purpose but to antagonize people. While some jobs pay less than others, all employment is gainful and deserves appropriate compensation.

Wal-Mart has choosen a very draconian business model, but there are many other business models that are more equitable, are successful and have employees who are happy to come to work. I am not a business major, but why not link the CEO's wage to the Janitor's wage? Apply a ratio of sorts so that when the CEO's wages rise, so to do the wages of the Janitor - that way there is no disparity. The Wal-Mart approach is like the pigs in Animal Farm - some are "more equal" than others. If we are all making money, then we all have money to spend, right? That is what makes the wheels of economy spin. No money, no way to make the wheel go round. Why would you be opposed to someone earning the fair market value for their trade? It is well documented that in the U.S., Wal-Mart's wages are well below average.

I am not suggesting the death of Capitalism - I am saying the "Wal-Mart Way" has a price tag that is too expensive for me. I do not value their bargain prices over the human and environmental consequences.

There is so much tearing at each other in these threads - so many people want to force their views on to the other and no one will respond positively to force. Plus, when force doesn't work, they resort to insults and misrepresentations. I did not start this thread but I will continue to further this dialog because I think it is important for people to actively participate in the process and to talk it out. We need to understand our actions/inactions have consequences that go beyond their household. I may not agree with you but I will support your right to express your opinion - you should just recognize that when you get all exaggerated and hyperbolic, your argument begins to fall apart.

As I have said before, if people understand what Wal-Mat (and the many lesser big box entities) are doing to our quality of life, our environment and our community and they still choose to shop at Wal-Mart, so be it. I cannot persuade someone who has made up his/her mind. I am here to advocate to those who are still on the fence or maybe unaware of what is going on. I advocate for simpler living and smaller footprints. If you don't agree with me, that's okay too. You are entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to mine. This isn't a conversation that is going to have a nice pat resolution - we need to talk this whole thing out if we are going to find a way to move forward.

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement, but the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." Bohr
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 406
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:34:31 PM

but why not link the CEO's wage to the Janitor's wage? Apply a ratio of sorts so that when the CEO's wages rise, so to do the wages of the Janitor - that way there is no disparity.

They actually do keep track of the ratio between CEO salary and their lowest paid employee. Up until the 70's the average ratio was 40:1, it is now estimated to be 400:1, with some companies exceeding 5,000:1.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 407
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History
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:36:50 PM
Nice post, Neap.

People have forgotten the wonderful lessons on Capitalism that Henry Ford so wisely taught: He paid his workers well enough so that they can afford to buy the products he sold. Giving workers a good living wage helps preserve capitalism and free enterprise by keeping companies strong. Low pay only weakens capitalism and corporate greed could very well be the downfall of our free enterprise system. Balancing some social programs with capitalism is a good way to preserve free enterprise in a country. Europe is kicking our butts because they have already learned this: Countries like Ireland and Sweden are doing quite well. Proof is in the pudding: The Euro is stronger than the dollar.

Serious food for thought, folks. We should demand a high living wage for workers, which in turn strengthens the economy and plays on the strengths of capitalism.

Sam Walton's kids certainly didn't learn from the fine example that Henry Ford gave us.

RIP Henry Ford!! Sadly, he is gone and his lessons are forgotten. In my heart Mr. Ford's lessons are never gone or forgotten!!
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 408
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 8:56:49 PM

He paid his workers well enough so that they can afford to buy the products he sold.

Not only did this give a few hundred sales a year to the employees, but the employees would tell all their friends and family to buy a Ford as well. You can go to any Ford plant today and look in the parking lot, it's all beaters, the workers can not afford to pay $45,000 for a new F-150.

It also reminds me of Air Canada. I grew up in a Air Canada family, my father was a flight dispatcher,my mother was a ticket agent, as was my godfather, my godmother was the chief flight attendant, my grandfather was a ramp manager, and my great uncle was a ramp supervisor. The company offered a generous pay, good benefits, nearly free air travel, and discounts on hotels around the world. Since the privatization the company has been driven into the ground thanks to Robert Milton. Soon benefits were being cut, salaries were bein lowered, and the free travel was becoming less of a benefit since most flights were being overbooked. When I was a kid Air Canada employees were rabidly loyal to the company, they would brag to friends about what a great job they have working for such a wonderful company. Now they hate the company, trash talk it at any opportunity, and tell friends to fly WestJet.
You can talk to any marketing expert, they will tell you "Word of mouth is the strongest advertising possible". This is because people will trust the word of a friend over any other advertizing.
So when these companies treat their employees like shit. They are biting the hand that feeds them. And you can look at the history of capitalism to proove that.
 Written by Hank
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 409
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:20:55 PM
And Hank can disagree all he wants, but it just shows his ignorance of economics and how to run an effective business.


Apparently I'm not ignorant enough to not read the post(s) in its entirety before commenting.

I have owned a couple of successful businesses. I found the trick to paying my employees a fair wage was to not over-value my own entitlement.

I've also found, in these threads, that when a person is unable to make a valid counterpoint, they resort to insults.
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 410
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/19/2008 9:43:13 PM

They actually do keep track of the ratio between CEO salary and their lowest paid employee.

So I found out the 2007 pay for the Wal-Mart CEO. It's $23,300,000. I also found out some employees make $8.53/h for 35 hours a week and figured at 50 working weeks a year that would be $14,927.50.
So that means the CEO ratio for this employee is 1:1560.
 NeapTide
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 411
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:41:40 AM
Good points everyone about Ford and Air Canada and even your personal experiences as a business owner. Thanks also for the ratio, Super Ryan - 1:1560 - wow! And I bet the benefit package for that Wal-Mart CEO is pretty sweet too.

Now, before anyone gets upset, I am not saying that a CEO cannot make a decent wage nor am I saying that he/she hasn't worked hard to get to that position, isn't well-educated and isn't expected to perform and therefore deserving of a higher compensation. I am saying that the disparity is too wide. The average ratio was 40:1 in the 70s and now, 30 years later it is closer to 400:1 (and as Super Ryan pointed out, Wal-Mart's - and many others - is way higher). Can you see how this pattern will continue until the middle class is non-existent and the working poor are going to be so beat down and tired that they will not have the energy to stand up and speak out? Or maybe that's exactly what these corporations see and in their minds that's a win-win.
 Darknight1984
Joined: 8/7/2007
Msg: 412
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 11:09:11 AM
You're never going to win this argument with this crowd. Some of these people will be the first to tell you that the janitor at Wal-Mart should make just as much as the CEO of the company. They will tell you that an 18-year-old kid, fresh out of high school should be paid enough to feed a family of 4 while pumping gas for a living. None of these people understand the concept of a ladder and how you're supposed to climb that ladder to a better lifestyle. They think that that better lifestyle is a god-given right and they demand that it be given to them without much effort on their own part. And Hank can disagree all he wants, but it just shows his ignorance of economics and how to run an effective business.

I am all for earning higher wages but it is unethical to not pay your employee a starting wage to live on. How do you not know that 18 is supporting someone and needs the money?
 Kingreol
Joined: 8/26/2006
Msg: 413
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:18:42 PM
im in agreement, with inflation (before the recent gas and food spikes) these minimum wage or 10 dollar or less jobs are popping up everywhere. and any job that invovles skill trade are becoming scarce, im in michigan detroit and we have more overqualified workers working at walmart and other mega chains. meijers is there to which has close to the same wages.....

now why im against walmart... it destroys small towns bye merging independent trade into a corporation, only nitch stores and bars are left in the wake. so you cant REALLY get to know the owners of the mom and pop store at walmart. its rockafeller for retail, its becoming a monopoly slowly. and when it does i will compare it just as much to exxon mobile when it has enough power to raise prices when there is no competition, this is why capitalism was against a monopoly. walmart is driving buisness out, and has enough money to buy out most buisnessess. giving it the ability to control production (wages) and the markets wages more so then any other company.


also the physical stores use a LOT of reasourses 1 store could power 1000 homes, probly more. and if all of what walmart has was in smaller privete owned shops. demand for electricity alone whould probly half... walmart is ugly. no class to it. no REAL community. but it looks like a daylight at night and there airconditioning or heating is sooo great . and all those damn tvs running. 24/7 yup thats a huge demand on a power grid.

ooh and in michigan, walmart cigs are 6 bucks where everywhere else they are 5. so dont buy cigs at walmart.
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 414
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:30:25 PM

I am saying that the disparity is too wide. The average ratio was 40:1 in the 70s and now, 30 years later it is closer to 400:1 (and as Super Ryan pointed out, Wal-Mart's - and many others - is way higher).


Too wide, in your opinion, but not demonstrably so in any factual sense. Shall we pass a law limiting CEO pay? Who decides what CEOs get paid, anyway? Yes, let's have the government decide... after all, they have shown that they know all about running a business efficiently, right?


Can you see how this pattern will continue until the middle class is non-existent and the working poor are going to be so beat down and tired that they will not have the energy to stand up and speak out? Or maybe that's exactly what these corporations see and in their minds that's a win-win.


I can see how pigs might fly, but that doesn't make it likely.

It must amuse people to theorize about how big corporations want to eliminate the middle class. I have a hard time seeing how that benefits anyone. If you get rid of the middle class, who is going to be shopping at Wal-Mart?
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 415
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:33:47 PM

I am all for earning higher wages but it is unethical to not pay your employee a starting wage to live on. How do you not know that 18 is supporting someone and needs the money?

So... if I'm 18, and I get my girlfriend pregnant, I deserve better pay for that reason?

Did that 18 year old somehow graduate from high school without knowing what things cost?
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 416
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:35:59 PM

So I found out the 2007 pay for the Wal-Mart CEO. It's $23,300,000. I also found out some employees make $8.53/h for 35 hours a week and figured at 50 working weeks a year that would be $14,927.50.
So that means the CEO ratio for this employee is 1:1560.


Okay... here's a question for you. Who is the CEO of Wal-Mart's boss? Who decides how much he makes?
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 417
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:58:52 PM
Okay... here's a question for you. Who is the CEO of Wal-Mart's boss? Who decides how much he makes?


The CEO is H. Lee Scott. Like almost every corporation, his compensation package is approved by the board of directors. The chairman of the board is Samuel Robson Walton, the eldest son of the founder Samuel Moore Walton. S. Rob Walton is estimated to have a fortune in excess of $16 billion.
 Kingreol
Joined: 8/26/2006
Msg: 418
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 1:59:08 PM
you support walmart? we dont want to see our manufacturing jobs leave the us to china. thats why our market is bad, where importing everything. instead of exporting. and you think walmart has not dug its own grave. bye working to becoming a monopoly. not everyone can survive when the only jobs there are are minimum wage jobs.

its not that everyone is uneducated. its just the ratio in the job market has becoming skewed, there are people WITH DEGREES, that are cashiers.


but maby this is the way things are to be, if everyone was a doctor, or computer programmer , we all live in a third world country, because no one whould be doing the hard boring labor.


now to branch of the subject, how many people do you think it whould take to run the united states without useless for survival jobs(actors/game programmers/guy who sells useless things) somone give me a estimate. now how many jobs whould you need for all the useless things.... *count in technology, the fact oil replaces manpower, and manufacturing is becoming more and more robotic* this is not including survice jobs. if you can tally that, well that leaves plenty without a job still. and keep in mind we are importing more then exporting.

basicly if more skilled labor exsists then whats needed theres underemployment.

unless we export. theres our problem of why wage is so low...amarica is now connected to the world market, and our living standards will hit reality, when everyone is riding a bike (but 3 times more then a china man as subburbia has ruled amarica for to long) our market is slowly reflecting chinas and the countries we exported our jobs to

our jobs are not in competition with other us jobs they are in compitition with a low standard of living jobs in other countries. and guess what if china fails due to gas prices, mexico will see a high rise in there job market from the us.
 Internetdatingpariah
Joined: 10/17/2004
Msg: 419
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:10:28 PM
Hmmm...I went shopping at my local harware store because it was close to work to buy a 60W lightbulb...like a small floodlight bulb. It cost me $16.00 each.
I went to Wal-Mart and it cost me about half that.
With the few that I purchased, the difference would pay for a weeks worth of lunches for my daughter.
I'd like to shop mom & pop more often and I like the service, but I can't afford to shop there routinely.
 NeapTide
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 420
Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:10:41 PM

Shall we pass a law limiting CEO pay?
Why limit it? I didn't say that. I said LINK the two incomes together - the highest and the lowest - and as one goes up or down, so does the other.


It must amuse people to theorize about how big corporations want to eliminate the middle class. I have a hard time seeing how that benefits anyone. If you get rid of the middle class, who is going to be shopping at Wal-Mart?
This isn't amusing at all for me. I'm serious. The question isn't who is going to be shopping at Wal-Mart but who will be able to shop ANYWHERE else.
 Kingreol
Joined: 8/26/2006
Msg: 421
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:23:15 PM
walmart will be the last to stand if great depression/peak oil/any other huge crisis hit.


anyways walmart, exxon mobile, mc donalds, and any other monopolizing corporation is just the downside evolution to capitalism. companies eat each other up until its just one big company running the big show. and then we will have nothing to compare our prices to cause walmart will set them for us.......
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 422
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:49:26 PM

anyways walmart, exxon mobile, mc donalds, and any other monopolizing corporation is just the downside evolution to capitalism. companies eat each other up until its just one big company running the big show. and then we will have nothing to compare our prices to cause walmart will set them for us.......


Yup, we're doomed.... I might as well go find a building to jump off of.

Problem is, none of the companies you mention is in fact a monopoly, nor is there any reasonble expectation based on fact that they will become one.
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 423
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:50:44 PM

This isn't amusing at all for me. I'm serious. The question isn't who is going to be shopping at Wal-Mart but who will be able to shop ANYWHERE else.


Let me see if I understand you correctly. You think that Wal-Mart is scheming to make us all poor, so we all have to shop at Wal-Mart?
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 424
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:55:08 PM

The CEO is H. Lee Scott. Like almost every corporation, his compensation package is approved by the board of directors.

Quite so.... I am impressed by your research. Someone please tell me WHY a corporation should not be allowed to decide how much to pay their CEO?


The chairman of the board is Samuel Robson Walton, the eldest son of the founder Samuel Moore Walton. S. Rob Walton is estimated to have a fortune in excess of $16 billion.

You went for extra credit here. How is this relevant?
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 425
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Wally-Mart SUX
Posted: 8/20/2008 3:05:53 PM

you support walmart?

I don't recall saying anything like that. I do support reality, and solutions to problems, rather than unconstructive whining. Talking about how bad it is doesn't do any good if you can't even explain factually WHY it is bad, let alone suggest a solution.


we dont want to see our manufacturing jobs leave the us to china.

Too late - they're gone! To China and elsewhere. Get ready to see Chinese-built autos here in the US.. they are coming.


and you think walmart has not dug its own grave.

The mind-reading trick is pretty old, as well as inaccurate.


not everyone can survive when the only jobs there are are minimum wage jobs.

Where is this the case?
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