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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15      Home login  
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 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 51
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15Page 3 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
RK... shortage isn't a scam, it's reality.

Oil discoveries have fallen far far behind usage. The giant fields are in decline. Cantarell in Mexico hit it's peak and is in steep decline to the tune of 14-16% in a year. Ghawar is showing decline. World production has plateaued for well over a year while demand is growing rapidly. Case by case, many countries are experiencing decline. There's no recovery from that. It's the whole reason previously useless sources, like the alberta oil sands are now viable. Projections show, even with those alternate sources, the decline will continue.

That's not even getting into the fact that the energy return ration that in it's heyday was 30:1 , dropped to around 10:1 and with low grade oil we're looking at now, is projected to drop to 3:1, meaning you get far less energy for all you put in.

The sooner people understand this, the better.
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 52
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 12:39:53 PM
Oil is not a renewable resource, and i do understand it has to be getting depleted. But not enough to justify gouging people. This just didn't come about this year...we have been told this for 30 years!! And aside from some hybrid cars that nobody can afford, and now stepped up attempts to produce more ethonol and Bio Diesel. All the energy alternatives have been squashed. Producing all electric cars simply won't work. Tell the average Joe that his 30,000 dollar car is worthless in trade in because evrything is now all electric. Anything short of a fossil fuel subsitute is just gonna be putting a band aid on something that needs stitches.

And I refuse to believe that our top scientists cannot come up with something to replace oil. Take the same group of geeks that spent a billion on the Mars probes and turn them loose on it. All Govt spending should be trimmed down and used for priority projects like this, not treat it as some after thought while throwing money out the window.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 53
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 1:49:31 PM

That is NOT true ,,there is no shortage of oil ,,they are finding more oil everyday ,,and with the artic promising to hold billions of barrels ,,they wont be a shortage for at least 150 years ,,,the SHORTAGE is in refineries ,,there hasn't been one built in 20 years and we are using more but don't have the capacity to refine more ,,The Alberta oil sands has more oil then anywhere else in the world (yes even more then Saudi Arabia) and they haven't even scratched the surface in Alberta


You are far from correct. FAR from it.

If you'd like to see usage vs discoveries, look at these...
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/06-14/1-oil-discoveries.jpg

http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/06-14/3-global-oil-discoveries-vs-demand.gif

The fact is, discoveries haven't even come close to keeping pace. We've been living off of the few huge finds, but as they dwindle, nothing is being found to replace them.

The US government has now had 3 separate studies done, and all say that the peak is indeed coming, but they disagree about how soon. Many experts are now saying we have peaked, as of sometime in 2006.

Alberta's oil is low grade, hard to extract, and leaves a wasteland behind when it's done. The only reason it's being tackled is because the good oil, sweet and light, is running out. I don't think you understand the meaning of "Peak oil". It doesn't mean you've run out. It means that you decline, and as the decline happens, demand continues to rise, and what oil you get is lower grade and costs more and more to extract. Notice that demand is rising while production is not ? Notice that we're turning to previously considered "garbage oil" to try to up production...

Do some research before you make claims which are false. It's blind following like you've shown which is putting us into the situation we are heading towards.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 54
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 2:14:31 PM

And aside from some hybrid cars that nobody can afford, and now stepped up attempts to produce more ethonol and Bio Diesel. All the energy alternatives have been squashed. Producing all electric cars simply won't work. Tell the average Joe that his 30,000 dollar car is worthless in trade in because evrything is now all electric. Anything short of a fossil fuel subsitute is just gonna be putting a band aid on something that needs stitches.


Hybrids are more affordable than you might think. After the state and federal tax credit and deduction, I paid $19,000 for my Prius three and a half years ago. And after 101,000 miles the current blue book value is $12,000, which is an excellent value retention compared to most vehicles. I won't disagree that that's still too much for many to pay for a vehicle. I couldn't go buy a new hybrid now on my current income. The most I'd ever paid for a vehicle up until then was less than half that. But you needn't pay really big bucks for a hybrid either, especially if you're smart enough to shop when gas prices dip down a touch rather than during the frenzy when they spike upwards. I have friends who sold one and two year old hybrids for more than replacement cost during a gas price spike a year or so ago. They just waited a few weeks, then walked into a showroom and drove out in a brand new hybrid with no money lost in the deal.

Although I can't imagine somehow stifling a new vehicle design due to the lowered trade in value of existing vehicles, you do touch on an important point. Whenever electric cars or something else DO become common place, lower income folks will be stuck driving obsolete gas guzzlers until the eventual development of a used car market for the new type of cars.

The primary barrier to widespread production of electric cars has been batteries. Lithium ion holds promise in that regard, carrying more charge and recharging pretty quickly. The Tesla mentioned earlier has a range of 200 miles, which isn't bad. But they don't know yet how long those batteries will last, guessing somewhere in the 100,000 to 200,000 mile range, far less than the near indefinite lifespan of electric motors. The Tesla is marketed as a high end sports car, with sleek styling and boasting 0-60 times under four seconds. It's priced in the same range as the Mitsubishis and Mazzeratis too - $93,000, out of reach of all but the elite.

But it's serving a key purpose of changing the stereotype of electric cars from glorified golf carts to performance vehicles. Tesla has just anounced a new facility to produce a mid-sized sedan that will be priced in the mid thirties - still too steep for many of us, but sure a lot closer.

Meanwhile hydrogen fuel cell vehicles face a mountain of technological hurdles that I'd be glad to list if anyone shows interest. Just know that we're a whole lot closer to affordable practical electric vehicles than fuel cell cars.

And as for band-aids, that's the label I'd put on a fossil fuel substitute fuel, like ethanol and bio-diesel, and on my hybrid. They may be much needed band-aids for now, but we'll move beyond them soon enough. Two key aspects of hybrids will undoubtedly be retained in next generation vehicles though - capturing energy when coasting or braking, and shutting down the power when stopped. Most of us don't jog in place waiting for an elevator. No need to use fuel when we're not going any where.

Dave
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 55
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 2:20:56 PM

dave ur a genius! i mean u should run for president or sumthin like that...y didnt i think about these things...along with eveyone else:
"take a bike to work": ur right..for those folks who live where it sumtimes pours rain, snows, or for the disabled, this is a great idea!
"carpool": i know everyone works the same hrs as me, same nights, and in the same area. That would work out just nifty!
"Move closer to work": My sister owns a habitat for humanity home...im sure shes just able to pick up and move, relocate and uproot her kids, after all, finding housing that fits ur budget is so dang easy. and what about those who live in subsudized tryin to get one their feet?
"Combine errands": this would be a wonderful idea, except i think most normal people who dont own tons of land and arent jumpin for joy over the cost of gas, probley already do this.
"drive a fuel efficiant car": yea, everyone can afford to do that! fact i think im gonna go out and buy a new vehicle today...after all, its just money....right?
"buy locally": most r forced to do this anyhow, and most of the time, when livin in smaller rual areas, the items r more costly...if, that is, they have the items ur lookin for.
convince ur employer to switch ur hours: LOL LOL LOL say hi to the easter bunny and tooth fairy while ur at it...what kind of world do u live in?
and finally..theres ur lovely idea of "vacationin closer to home": not sure about u, dave, but i cant afford to travel or vacation cuz IM PAYIN TOO DANG MUCH FOR THE GASSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
(shakes head...thinks to himself...i want to live in the perfect world dave lives in where everyone can afford to do the suggested things he brought up and isnt stuck in certain circumstances. lol i gotta tell the boys at the station about this guy...bet he knows how to solve crime, have world peace, and how to cure cancer. dave, ya missed ur callin...u should have been a polititian..ur great at workin a phillibuster.


Good Point, patrol sgt:

Better solution! : when in doubt, WHINE and ask
the GOVERNMENT TO "fix it" for you..


i.e. "punish" those big bad oil companies and 'force' them to sell for 1/2 price..

sounds like..Communism ?
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 56
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 2:24:11 PM
Gasoline at $3/gallon is cheaper than many brands of bottled water... and certainly cheaper than most "name your poisons" i.e. whiskey, etc.

In N. America you have just been 'spoiled' for years with cheap gas so you can drive land yachts/whales.. and bomb the piss out of Iraq/Kuwait if they refuse to supply more cheap..

the cost you pay at the pump does not account for the poisoning of the environment that you do by burning fossil fuels..
 spacemonkeymafia
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 57
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 2:33:10 PM
this doesn't work you only hurt your local gas station doing this not the oil companies. Since your gas station has already purchased the fuel from the oil company and selling it to you for about a 3 cent per gallon profit. write a letter to your congressman it's far more effective
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 58
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 2:34:50 PM
WV...You make some very educated and valid points. I think electric and hybrid cars can and will make a huge impact. At least to some degree.


You are far from correct. FAR from it.


No...he really isn't. And his facts are just as good as yours or better. Try reading Alexanders oil and gas reports. Its not the "grinning planet" and doesn't draw their own conclusions. It just reports what is happening. With the opening of the Alaska restrictions, and the trillions of barrels (yup trillions) in shale oil in Colorado and Utah on Federal property, among other alternitives in the Gulf of Mexico and other yet to be tapped oil fields. The situation is alot less dire than it is made to believe. Granted it is not sweet crude and will take more to actually get it out, but we have far from reached the bottom of the tap. In one article, it is said that if there is enough in Oil Shale in the western United States , that if they supplied us with 20 percent of our usage, we would have enough for 400 years. With enviromental concerns and other hurdles left to be overcome, it is still a viable alternitive, and oil companies such as Chevron are investing in it.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 59
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 3:11:28 PM
RK.

Please list for me some of the miracle oil finds that will make it all better. Talking about the ones in the Gulf ? The ones that are deeper under sea than anything we've ever tried to drill, and right in hurricane alley ? And if it is as HUGE as they say, the total max estimate, would only add 3-6 months of world oil usage ?

OIL is NOT running out.

CHEAP and HIGH GRADE oil is.

Yes, there's oil around, but you reach the point where it costs too much to utilize, and uses too much energy to extract.

Do you know why there's a problem with refinery capacity ? Because the refineries are geared to light sweet oil which is running out. Sure, there's heavy sour around, but it produces low energy oil in comparison and costs more to process.

Is there really oil to use if it's only a break even proposition. Use 1 barrel to extract 1 barrel and you're standing still. The energy ratio has been declining for decades.

Please read the Hirsch report and the US Army engineers report. I have. When you've done that, then feel free to make an informed comment. Thanks.
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 60
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 3:13:51 PM
Hmmm...coming from someone in a photo riding a bicycle...good call. But unfortunately I am not gonna sell my home to move next door to my job to save the world some oil, and people have to commute. I want to see you ride a bike 20 miles to and from work everyday. You can only cut down so much, and then the masses don't cut down at all so your left conserving and getting drilled with higher prices. It is why some sort of boycott wouldn't work. Some would, but most won't, so it would have no effect. You think someone that would not go along with not buying gas 2 days a week is gonna do anything to help???
 patrol sgt
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 61
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 3:28:21 PM
...and while gas prices continue to rise...good people all over the world who own small business loose their homes, companies, and minds. sure, they can wait for all u patient people and prices to level out. and for all u people who insist on tellin others to use their vehicles less....what in the world do u think ppl have been doin for the last few yrs? and dave...im not whinin...but i think becomin involved and at least TRYIN to do sumthin about concerns beats sittin on ur butt doin nuthin.
 griffey99
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 62
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 4:08:14 PM
Guys buying gas one day won't directly affect them. They laugh at this sort of scenario because they know that you'll have to fill up sooner or later. The major problem we have is that Exxon/Mobil has a total monopoly here. They control close to 90% of the oil market in the U.S. now. What I have done for a long time is buy gas from smaller companies like Phillips 66 and others. I won't buy gas from Exxon unless i absolutely have to. They control the prices and if people would buy from others consistently that will cause price wars eventually.
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 63
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 4:14:10 PM
Total days of car use in the past year: 45. This is the 4th state I've lived in that has alternate transportation options. TN, AL, OH and WA/I

45 huh...thats about how many times the fuel price has jumped. Sooo...how did that work out? There is no public transportation between my job and here. And unless you bicycle guys figure a way to move Houston closer to Missouri, my stepfathers trucking firm will still have to drive that far. Maybe they should start hooking onto a bus and get towed part of the way?? Or maybe we can just haul freight in our own city and..maybe only downhill.

I have heard this eco friendly, do your part garbage for 30 years. And what did it get us?? Triple the price for fuel.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 64
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 7:27:49 PM

what in the world do u think ppl have been doin for the last few yrs? and dave...im not whinin...but i think becomin involved and at least TRYIN to do sumthin about concerns beats sittin on ur butt doin nuthin.


What people have been doing in the last few years is using more gas, not less.

There's some humor to be found here. We're both encouraging people to get off their butts, but what you define as "TRYIN to do sumthin", near as I can tell, is to participate in the boycott promoted here, ie not buy gas May 15th. Or maybe some of the other schemes trotted out like boycott a particular brand for a certain period.

And you apparently think what I do consititutes 'sittin on ur butt doin nuthin.'

Remember our different perspectives on the world now. I don't know what you've done to advocate for your perspective - maybe a lot. I'm not the one tossing out accusations.

Here's some of the things I've done to promote mine:

Founded and led a non-profit that among other things brought together industry, government, and citizen leaders to collaborate on a wide range of environmental initiatives, resulting in millions of dollars of reclamation work being performed, bringing essentially dead streams back to life.

Founded and led an "office of innovation" in the state environmental agency that not only continued the above work, but conducted home energy audits and provided assistance to homeowners wanting to shrink their energy use, introduced hybrid vehicles into the state motor pool, convinced the state to build their first certified Energy Star and LEEDS certified green building, ran a series of seminars for large and small business owners on how to shrink their energy use as part of a comprehensive environmental management system, participated in national initiatives to address climate change, regulate carbon sequestration efforts, and promote sustainablity concepts, just to name a few.

Two days from now I'll be chairing, as a volunteer for another non-profit I head, a 'greening and growing business conference', once again helping spread the word that there are profits to be found by running a business more in harmony with the environment. We'll have speakers ranging from the president of a university and vice presidents from a global flooring company and Chesapeake Energy down to the local guy who makes tofu and another who installs solar panels. Right after that I head up the road to volunteer at a fund raising event for that non-profit I started 15 years ago.

Specifically related to shrinking fuel consumption, if you google "Prius Marathon", you'll find ample media reports related to our 110 mpg, 1400 mile in a single tank effort. Since then I've been able to promote the same concepts you've read about here on HBO, ABC Evening News, Good Morning America, NPR, and in numerous articles and interviews in other media outlets. I've taught seminars on reducing personal fuel consumption.

And that doesn't count the things I've done on a personal level so that my home uses a quarter the energy it did under the previous owner, plus driving my hybrid, albeit more miles than maybe I should.

Maybe you think educating people about how they can conserve constitutes 'doin nuthin'. I think of it more like helping everyone who'll listen keep money in their pocket they'd otherwise be throwing away, among other things, and once they have that knowledge, that's worth a whole lot more than a gas card. The knowledge never expires.

And I still maintain it's a disservice to support efforts that will only encourage people to keep using more energy than they should. You disagree. That's your right. Just know that I'm pretty darn busy 'doin sumthin' to promote practices that I think really will make a difference.

Dave
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 65
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 9:15:51 PM
Car days in the last 5 years 0

But then, I believe ONE PERSON can make a difference globally. ]-who_the_fox

You said it, fox!
If you have to commute, then do it, but why not carpool with other people in your
neighbourhood? 4 people can fit into even a small car & imagine that, you just
chopped your commute bill by 3/4ths



0 car days huh?? Well your fortunate not to have to drive to work. I did know a guy at work that didn't believe in cars, he just bummed a ride from everyone else til they got tired of it and he changed his believe and bought one.

And people here do car pool when it is practical. They even built really nice parking areas for them to meet up near the interstate, truth be known, the nation has been conserving energy for years, but it is pretty plain, it doesn't work!!! Its the same rational that everyone that says a boycott of any kind won't work. You save a few gallons today,...you will just buy it tommorrow. So whats the differance??

For those that insulated their homes and took every measure to be energy efficient and noticed the light bill was cheaper 15 yrs ago, how is that bill now?? Higher or comparable to what you paid before trying to conserve.
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 66
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 9:51:03 PM

What we're experiencing is collusion at the highest levels. Among the oil companies who are charging us high gas prices for no reason, and the banks who are backing the speculators operating on the commodities exchange.


We have a winner!!..Thats exactly right! And what drives pricing?? Demand and what competitors are doing. We buy every day with out question, and you can buy at one station for 3 bucks a gallon, or go down the street and buy it for the same price or go to a nearby city and pay the same price. The phony excuse of more people traveling on vacation will be a good reason to raise prices, and who cares what the guy is charging down the street?? Its all the same. If a particular company was boycotted, trust me, they would have to do something, like lower the price, which would bring competition back into the equation when everyone abandons the other company to get the cheaper fuel, the other stations would have to adjust also. But the worst thing we can do is nothing.
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 67
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:01:46 PM
It is easy to say just don't use your car, but the simple truth is most people have to. If you live where there is no public transit, which is most places in the US, just a simple drive to work in a major city is 20 miles.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 68
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 10:53:48 PM
Listen to the wily Fox, rk. She's right. It really is all about choices, not luck.

And whether today's prices are the result of collusion (they may be - money is a powerful drug, and the more money to be had, the more powerful its ability to warp morals. ) or less sinister pure economic forces, we all have the opportunity to make choices that minimize the pain.

While the charges of collusion may turn out to be justified, I always raise an eyebrow when someone experiencing hardship immediately assumes someone else intentionally created that hardship. I'm not one to believe in conspiracies. They take too much intelligence and teamwork for mere humans to pull off successfully very often. Far more misery is created by lack of planning than sinister plotting, at least in my experience.

Dave
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 69
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 4/30/2007 11:42:37 PM
If you are familiar with my posts, you will know I am not a hardcore conspiracy guy. But smart enough to know a rip off when I see it. And nobody..I mean nobody ,should be allowed to make 33 billion in profit in a year and claim its shortages. I think they had a hearing for show and wanted an explanation from the Oil companies as to how they could profit so much. The answers that I heard sounded alot like....well...ummm..we had a hurricane and well..ummm..see we had to rebuild after Katrina..and umm..you know..uh..it just happened. I read where, I think it was Chevron, was fined because they flat out lied about what they had available in thier fields. Its always the "woe is me" from them while they stuff money in their pockets.

In my opinion, the oil companies should be open to anti trust lawsuits for obscene profits and probably illegal price gouging. It is up to the people to install stop gaps and regulation to avoid letting them just bend us over and screw us at will. And 33 billion is a major hosing.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 70
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/1/2007 12:12:56 AM
RK and other dude...

Oil sands produce heavy oil. Harder to refine and more expensive to do so.

Refineries primarily deal with Light, sweet oil.

that's not what comes out of the oil sands. there are scarcely few refineries which deal with heavy crude and nobody seems to want to spend several billion dollars to build ones that do. the oil sands have a projected peak capacity of around 2.2 mill/barrels per day possible by around 2020. Sounds great, until you look at the decline rates of the fields which are supplying so much oil currently, and then you see that even with that new production, we're not increasing overall, but decreasing.

Production has not increased in over a year.

More and more money is being poured in to slow the rate of decline, but it doesn't magically create more light sweet oil. the Alaskan oil output has seen decline, which has eaten up billions to reduce it;'s decline to a mere 6% range, instead of 10% +.

More and more money and effort to try to keep the oil flowing at it's current rate, but not increase...

And you still don't grasp, I am not saying oil is running out, I am saying cheap and easy to process oil is running out, the result being that to continue using oil, we must turn to the previously not worthwhile sources, such as oil sands.

There has been precious few new discoveries made of light/sweet oil. I defy you to show me any new discovery which is on par with any of the giant fields we have been riding.

And I see you haven't bothered to read any of the reports i mentioned. Please read the Hirsch report, and the army engineers report on the subject.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 71
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/1/2007 12:28:35 AM

It is up to the people to install stop gaps and regulation to avoid letting them just bend us over and screw us at will.


I'm good with that. Along with doing all can to shrink our consumption, of course.

Dave
 MoralsMan
Joined: 4/6/2007
Msg: 72
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/1/2007 12:50:13 AM
Oh My God Waterfall/Dave, where have you been, there will not be a oil shortage for over another 100 years. Jesus Dave, dig deeper on the internet.

Count me in on May the 15th, how could not buying gas hurt the people, it will just show the oil barons that we mean business and we could do this one day a week forever and it will surely blow their minds or balls off.

If we are gonna do this strike on the gas then why don't we do a nationwide strike for one day on the illegal immigration just like the Mexicans/Spanish (legal or illegals) did a few months back and show the government we want an American America also. Any one up for that, if you are then go to "Grassfire.org" and join, it's free....And while we are striking about the gas, the illegal Mexicans, then let's strike or march on the cause of the Border Agents being put in prison for doing their job and also the policemen/women on the border also. Anyone up for that????? There are several of governmental people being put in prison for doing what they are trained to do. Then lets all get together and impreach BUSH for letting the 21 million illegal Mexicans becoming LEGAL citizens. JESUS, when will you citizens realize what is going on. The US of A is going to HELL for sure....
 gentlepatrick
Joined: 3/26/2006
Msg: 73
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/1/2007 7:12:34 AM

Personally I liked Al Gore's gas tax idea. We could have raised the price of gas to $3/gallon back in 2000 before every jackass went and bought himself an SUV. That would have reduced oil consumption right there. We'd be paying low gas prices and high gas taxes. And instead of Exxon getting rich off high oil prices, America would have those hundreds of billions of dollars to become a world leader in alternative energy to get people off oil.


I dont disagree with the result but...............

the average person cannot significantly reduce his/her fuel consumption overnight. The day after the tax gpes into effect, the average person is stuck. There are things many could do to reduce driving but the more fundamental and meaningful thing would be to drive vehicles that were more efficient. same number of miles = far less consumption.

Think about this for a minute; other than car pooling or not taking a joy ride, what can the average person do to limit number of miles driven? answer: not a lot.

We dont really make these decisions at the fuel pump (which is what the direct gas tax seeks to impact) but we DO MAKE THEM at the new car dealer showroom. When a person goes to buy a new car, they are making a decision to put a vehicle into the "pool" - a vehcicle that will stay in the 'pool' for 15 or 20 years (doesnt matter if you sell it.... its still in the pool of cars).

The new car purchase is where we make a decision and that is where the tax should be levied - an excess fuel tax on the car. You can social engineer that baby for years. for example:
1. $4,000 tax on most inefficeint car
2. tax nuetral i.e. no tax on 'target mileage' (which can be a moving target as car makers improve fuel economy based upon public demand)
3. $2,000 tax credit (funded from the tax) for purchases of car with extra good economy.

Play with the numbers all you want but the difference is you are taxing people at the moment when they make a meaningful choice vis-a-vis fuel consumption (new car purchase) versus taxing them a t the fuel pump where there is little they can do to lower the current consumption needs.
 gentlepatrick
Joined: 3/26/2006
Msg: 74
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/1/2007 7:46:17 AM

But I would prefer to see an annual road tax


we already have it - its called the highway trust fund. it is the tax on gasoline and the vehicle that gets less miles per gallon will pay more 'road tax' per mile than the more efficient one. no need to reinvent the wheel. as to $4000 not being 'enough' - did you read what i wrote about 'playing with the numbers? it was an illustration
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 75
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/1/2007 8:07:59 AM
dorionland, I think we may have more agreement than you think we do, but it's a bit hard to tell, since I'm having some difficulty understanding some of your points. Yes, I honestly believe that the higher the gas prices are, for whatever reason, the higher the incentive to wean ourselves from gas, and that weaning ourselves from oil is a good thing for all of us.

It certainly helps if oil companies are using their profits to invest in renewable energy development, as BP, Shell, and Conoco-Phillips are doing. I wish they were investing even more of their profits in that direction. Exxon has done the opposite by actively funding efforts to throw up a smoke screen about climate change. Almost every argument you hear denying the human role in climate change can be traced to one of the fringe skeptic organizations they fund who dedicate themselves to obscuring and distorting the incredible quantity of science that supports the urgency of us taking action on that issue.

Every penny that goes toward promoting sustainable development and liveable cities so people do not have to commute 100's of miles every week is a penny well spent. You and I are in total agreement on that. I'm even part of a sustainable development committee here in WV that's part of our overall economic development think tank.

I don't understand your conspiracy reference. Just because I don't jump on the conspiracy bandwagon doesn't mean I think corporations don't do bad things. There's nothing hidden about who I do and don't support, so the 'shill' label won't fit. If I could make sure not a penny of my money goes to Exxon I would, but as I've pointed out here, the refinery to station connection is more geographically determined than anything else. None of the gas sold at Exxon stations around here came from an Exxon refinery.

I would support a gas tax as well, or a carbon tax to push us quicker to shrink our carbon footprint, although I suspect some sort of cap and trade program is more likely to get support. Either way, creating economic incentives to do good things is in itself a good thing.

And the sooner we can move beyond oil the sooner we can quit stirring up the hornet's nest in the Middle East. Their conflicts long predate the discovery of oil and will no doubt long outlive the black goo. The only favor we've done them is give them a cash cow and a common enemy all at once.

So now I've shared thoughts here that could divert this thread in any number of directions. Bottom line: I still don't think not buying gas on one day does any good, and that not buying gas from Exxon stations doesn't impact Exxon corporate.

Dave
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