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Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 152
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15Page 7 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
Hey not so smart americans.........there is NO GAS STRIKE...............
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 153
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/8/2007 1:21:47 PM

We have been conserving since the 70s. It helps, but look where we are today

This is an incomplete and simplistic argument, ignoring context and any meaningful perspective.

We have been conserving to what degree? Conservation became a buzzword in the early 70's, then became more of a focus with the gas-spike scares of the 70's. When the latter ended (due to many reasons I won't go into here), consumerism not only continued as usual, but increased. Why? Aside from the many psychological reasons , chiefly greed and envy, it is our psychological belief system that we worship "growth". Not organic growth, but economic growth. We still consider it a generational success ONLY if we have a higher standard of living than did our fathers and mothers. But the only reason it was possible to have an ever-spiraling boon of materialistic benefits is because of the upward slope of oil's bell curve production. And from this belief system, our governmental policies follow. We turf the political "bums" if our economy not only doesn't go up by 3% a year, but stagnates. (Bush bought some time on this front with lower taxation, but the economy is based on energy availability, not monetary manipulation.)

Whatever you save in a week walking to work, riding a bike, not going on will use eventually, you are just putting off the inevitable

Exactly. But you're missing the more important point. By conserving oil and oil-based derivatives, we are successfully buying incredibly important time to retrofit a much different and necessary infrastructure, and insuring that the transition will go a lot smoother. If we continue to use up the current resource-model, no matter HOW slow or fast, WITHOUT transitioning into a replacement model, we will suffer much more.

The time to have made that transition was thirty years ago; it will become increasingly more difficult as the price of oil soars, and the effectiveness of implemention is curtailed because of the resulting expense needed to construct alternate infrastructure (which involves the use of oil).

And in the List of countries that have higher prices, which really doesn't matter. The cost of a a fresh lobster here in the midwest is way more than on the coast. Why???

Indeed. You're making my point for me. Why is the cost of gas the cheapest in the world in the U.S., when the U.S. peaked in 1970 and currently imports 70% of its oil?

I can give you many answers, but I'll let you ruminate more on that one.

While you listed New Zealand..LOL You left out Brazil which has almost weaned itself off of oil with bio and ethanol.

I take it you're LOL about New Zealand because it has a population of only 4 million (though I don't think that any New Zealander would think the realities of gas prices are "insignificant" to THEM). The point of me including NZ was to list ALL developed countries, as well as developing and undeveloped ones. Or do you think it insignificant that I included the entire population of the world outside the U.S.? I'd call that a comprehensive contrast.

If anyone should be LOL, it should be those reading your example of Brazil.

"bio and ethanol"?

Conversion to an ethanol energy economy in Brazil is just one more example of their perrenial short-sightedness. The ERoEI of ethanol is abysmal. What happens after oil peaks? Ethanol is only possible, even as an ERoEI trade-off, because of cheap oil. When shale and tar sands and sour crude become the default oil options, ethanol will become a negative erergy drain.

Then there's that pesky problem of replacing human food crops for corn to feed SUVs instead. Suicides are already increasing in India because of international ethanol use; Mexico took to the streets in riots earlier this year because their corn was shipped to the U.S. (who outbid their own country's cos for it).

Topsoil depletion will accelerate in an economy which has any meaningful dependence on ethanol exports. There is only six inches of rich topsoil left in U.S. farming.

And I haven't even begun to delineate Brazil's tragic deforestation, the worst by far in the world since the 1960's. Again, all implemented and overseen by governments who only want to win the next election.

But if you just think that gas prices for the next month are the only issue here, I can't argue with you.
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 154
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/8/2007 2:26:49 PM
If anyone should be LOL, it should be those reading your example of Brazil.

"bio and ethanol"?,.....


before you laugh too loud, might want to check your facts first,....

Ethanol fuels energy independent Brazil
By getzel

Sunday, March 5, 2006

Toyota, General Motors, And Ford assembly plants in Brazil have for years delivered new cars to Brazilians that run on pure ethanol.

When Brazilians go to the gas pumps Brazilians can choose to fill their cars with 100% clean burning ethanol and no gasoline at all. Brazilians pay under $1.50 per gallon for ethanol. Brazil is energy independent, they import no oil. America could be energy independent like Brazil in less than four years.

All Americans should confirm for themselves this information and then all Americans should call, write, and e-mail all their congressional representatives and the Executive branch, and their favorite TV/Radio news show and demand that energy independents is the only issue that we will tolerate being discussed until the ethanol plants and the means for delivering ethanol to motorist have been accomplished.

The alternative is to wait till Al Qaeda succeeds in wrecking the oil infrastructure of the middle east and then their is 10 dollar per gallon gas. The benefits to domestically produced are unlimited ethanol. we balance our trade deficit, we create full employment, we no longer fund those who use the money to destroy America.

I have been trying to get this government to move to ethanol since 1979. I hope the country forces the issue before it is to late. Anyone who talks against ethanol, in my opinion, should be considered an oil company representative or worse.


In Brazil, a country which has been developing "flexible fuels" technology since the 1970's, drivers are used to being able to use whichever fuel meets their needs, in cars that have been converted to run on gasoline or ethanol. The country is predicted to become energy independent in the next year, admittedly also due to significant oil reserves as well.

USA Today reports that Brazil's success, after decades of efforts, to chart their own energy path is blossoming into a global industry for the country. The paper suggests that US trade protections and use of more expensive and less effective corn to develop domestic ethanol will block the US path towards reducing its Middle East oil imports.

While the US continues to make a token effort at ethanol use, with about 600 stations offering a mix of 15% ethanol, Brazil has 29,000 stations that offer ethanol as a fuel, a car industry that produces cars that make the fuel attractive, and is fast pushing to develop a world market for their product,


still laughing???????????

all the usuall suspects IE the major automobile manufacturers weren't laughing when they sold their flex fuel / gsoline cars, Brazil

and for anyone who still drove gas based cars only both isavailable at the pumps,...

While the world was busy worrying about other things Brazil was minding it's own business, ploddding away....and after many years,...they reached the finish line, they can be proud of because world leader's are sitting up and paying attention,...including Bush,....

and all the points you mentioned have been considered by the Brazillian gvernment over the may years it took to get to the finish line,.....

Brazil's tragic deforestation, is something for them to consider,...but consider this,...
Brazil is a very small country globally speaking and 46-48% of it is currently forrested,
with another almost 5% non forrested vegitation,....currently 11 % has been de-forrested,....this includes land cleared for urban sprawll,...and forrests areas that have been destroyed by natural hot spots creating forrest fires,....and yes I'm sure a good chunk of that is logging,....they are trying to be as self sufficient as possible,....

I know what we loose when we lose forrest land anywhere but let's not forget that it isn't JUST the amazon that creates our much needed O2 every country needs to preserve and manage their forrests and non forrest vegitation,...
which also puts out O2 that adds up globally,....American, Canadian, Chineese and well all of the 193 countries arround the globe are responsible for their piece of land and the management thereof,....

Let's not dump all the responsbillity of our clean air and O2 content on the Amazon's door step,....that's just not fair,....the amazon is poor and it's not fair to tell them that they can't use their natural resources but other countries hae controll over theirs,....either we reemburse them globally for not cutting their trees,...or they cut them,...everyone deserves to survive,....

The gorrillas in Africa were being killed for their meat by the many starving people,....untill eco-tourism made them worth more dead than alive,....and now the gorillas are virtually free from poachers because the country needs those tourist dollars badly,...and every one of those gorilla's is a means to that end,....

If you think Brazil shouldn't cut their own land,...then make them an offer they can live with,....and get off of your cross honey,... the woods badley needed,...

Perhaps if more countries lead by example,... than by the adage do what I say but not what I do,....the world would bebetter cared for,....and we'd all win,....
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 156
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/8/2007 3:02:21 PM
RK, everytime you refer to oil peaking, you show your ignorance, because despite it being explained to you, repeatedly, you still don't make statements that are correct.

Peaking means you've reached the top level of what you're going to get. It follows a bell curve, which we were rapidly increasing with as we rode that curve up. Now? Production is not increasing. Many of the most important fields are declining. When the easy to get and high return oil starts to decline, which it is, then you still have the heavier less desired oil to use. This pushes up costs, especially when you realize that most refineries never wanted that garbage oil and are not tooled for refining it. Saudi Arabia, in their 2006 report, pointed this out as a significant concern.

As for the ethanol debate, one thing you are ignoring is the fact that not all ethanol is not created equally. Depending on the crop used, you get varying levels of energy return. Brazil uses sugarcane, one of the higher energy return crops for ethanol. The US is using corn, with a far lower ER. The USA could only grow sugarcane in a very few viable areas, so don't have an option to grow the more viable crop.

Of course, you also don't pay attention to the fact that to replace 1 gallon of gas, it takes a greater amount of ethanol, because ethanol produces lower energy, so worse mileage, meaning more fuel used to travel the same distance... Nor do you seem to pay attention to the fact that to replace the oil use of the states would take virtually every acre of arable growing land to plant the crops, including all of that used for silly things like growing food to feed your people...
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 157
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/8/2007 3:25:41 PM

Ethanol plants are using and predeicted to use a very small part of our grain. If expanded , the use will rise, but if you have ever driven through the midwest (assuming you haven't) like central and western Kansas, after they cut the wheat, its pretty much done. A bumper crop of easy to grow corn, sugar beets or other crop that won't be for human consumption (including all the stalks and plant matter currently plowed under) would make a hell of alot of ethanol.

You've bypassed a point I've already made.

You can flood the market with ethanol, but if it uses as much oil to produce as that which it supposedly replaces, it's a zero-sum game. And that's what is happening. This isn't a theory. You can crunch the numbers all you want, but even ethanol-plant owners can't disguise the fact that the "breakthroughs" are all hype to justify economic incentive for hoped-for expansion for their business.

The ERoEI for ethanol plants are no better than standard corn-into-ethanol conversion.

Oil is needed in the process. You've bypassed my other point that it will become more expensive (and therefore an energy drain) when the more expensive versions of Venezuelan sour crude, Alberta Tar Sands and Colorado shale are the oil sources we rely on.

And I repeat...the plants here use Electricity from a coal fired does that equate to using as much oil to produce the same amount of Ethanol, which is not true at all??

You're attributing conclusions to me which I never generated. Never said anything about coal, did I?

Coal will be the default world energy source after the less desireable oil options have also declined. I won't get into the incredibly stratospheric greenhouse gas problems this will cause. Oil actually "only" makes up 40% - 45% of our total world energy use, but it is irreplaceable to our way of life because of its incredible cheapness, reliability, and prevalence. When I speak of "oil", oftentimes it is interchangeable with gas and coal. The similarity between all three-- the important point-- is that they are all finite resources.

And as far as India is concerned....dunno if you have checked on them in your lifetime, but they have been starving for years. And I think I would cut up one of those cows wandering the streets before commiting suicide over some fictional grain shortage.


You're off on a wild goose chase again.

The suicides I talk about are because of a shortage of corn and rice due to complex multi-traded appropriation and export for foreign markets where the bidding is higher. In other words, starvation. I didn't know starvation was "fictional".

Comparing New Zealand to the United States is like saying you can pick watermelons from an apple tree. There are many places in the US that are so remote, that you will pay way more for fuel, simply because they pay more to get it there, and use less.

Thanks again for making my argument for me.

The U.S. is a vast land, requiring a lot of miles of gas use by endless fleets of trucks transporting its food, not to mention that the average U.S. citizen drives many more miles out of necessity to negotiate the suburbs, the ex-urbs, as well as the pleasure trips. To be short about it, the energy needed-- on many levels-- to pay for the gas to reach the station should result (on that fact alone, though there are many more examples) in a higher price at the pumps. The food that travels farther to get to your plate is more expensive, obviously, as you yourself mentioned with the East-Coast reference before. Why should it be different with gas in this respect?

And people talk out of both sides of there uninformed mouths. In one breath its..the oil is "peaking" and is gonna run dry!! Global warming is gonna kill us all!! And when the solutions come up like Bio and Ethonal, and wind power...all those are dumb ideas that won't work, and hurt the migratory birds, and make people in India kill thereselves.....what a bunch of garbage

And a lot of people put words into others' mouths that were never there.

I've mentioned on another thread that wind power has its uses. But it's not scaleable, nor will it ever be, to keep 800 million worldwide cars running.

You're becoming increasingly hysterical. I don't mind debating you, but if you're gonna degenerate into ridiculous ad hominem attacks, you're losing respect from me as a worthy debating opponent, and I would logically assume for anyone else reading, no matter what position they take.

And you don't think we have been conserving since the seventies....My brother has a 78 corvette that he rarely drives because...IT GETS 10 MPG! Every appliance , furnace, AC, water heater you buy, since the early eighties, uses that yellow sticker that tells you how "energy efficient" it is. Cars are getting twice the mileage they were, house are insulated to the point of being redundant. Most cities have public transportation where there was none. All this and record gas bills, and pump prices, and 33 million in profit for one company.

I didn't say we haven't been conserving. You've, again, misrepresented my words.

Conserving not only has to keep pace with past experiences, it has to greatly accelerate them, simply because the other side of the equation-- easy energy availability-- has been steadily lessening, cresting, and soon, declining. It's simple math: if you conserve 10% more over ten years in certain isolated areas, but consume more in the bigger picture (internationally speaking here, though U.S. consumption has increased, as well), while the easy pickings dwindle, it shouldn't take an economic titan to conclude that negligible anecdotes that you mention are like slapping bandaids on the hull of the Titanic.

And until someone pulls a hydrogen cell out of thier butt, alternitive fuels is the only viable option.

Well, at least we can agree on something.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 158
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/8/2007 6:27:05 PM

Actually read on the Ohio ethanol plants, and what they consume. One runs on garbage groceries, and the other on local grain..,.not imported!!

Thermal depolymerization-- chicken guts, garbage, feces (hope it's not suppertime when you read this), stray divots, the suspenders of Captain Kangaroo, and the liver of the Easter Bunny-- yes, can successfully be converted into fuel.

The problem, to repeat myself so that I'm even boring myself-- is that it has a negligible (at best) energy trade-off. I guess many people keep overlooking this fact because all they can see is the postive end product. "Hey! it's a step! We can power a few households" ... etc. But if you're using the same amount (or more) of fossil fuels (in machinery, processing, electricity, maintenance, etc) than you get out of the end-product, all you're doing is stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

Any positive ERoEI energy output is to be applauded. But what I'm constantly arguing is we don't have anything remotely to match, or come anywhere close to matching, the sheer daunting scale of what oil powers for us.

We will need incredible ingenuity in MANY alternative energy areas.

And the Wind plant north of here will be feeding Columbia Mo about 200 miles away. It will generate enough power to light 2,300 homes, about 30 percent of the time. That coupled with another contract they have will make a big dent in using less coal. But in another thread, one woman said it wouldn't work because migrating birds are being hacked up every day...LOL

Yes, windpower will play an important role in various ways. But this thread deals with gas (oil) and powering our fleet of expanding cars.

I wonder how many on this thread who applaud the May 15th "strike" and who think gas prices should come down also believe that it will be possible to maintain the staus quo fantasy of never-ending cheap gas-fill-ups at the corner station?

$3 a gallon will seem like the good ole days in the not-too distant future.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 159
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:39:58 AM
Ok RK, as your gas mileage gets worse, keep quoting some misleading sources and telling yourself it's better.

Funny that Wang won't even defend his statements and tries to deny even corresponding with the questioner who offers to happily publish their correspondence.

Picking and choosing your sources doesn't make them right...

Anyways, only 6 days till you all bring the oil company to it's knees...

Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 160
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:57:47 AM
Oh come on people- ignoring all the arguments about greed, about how ethnoal or electric cars can or cannot work- ignore all that, and we still come down to the fact that if people do this boycott on the 15th, the only effect it will have is negative. OPEC will not realise the error of their ways, CEO's and investors will not go broke- in the slim chance that this effect anyone, it will be the people at the gas pumps- the people who need these jobs.

If you agree to this boycott, it will mean one of two things- either you're going to fill up the day before, or you're going to fill up the day after. And it makes no difference to OPEC- only the individual gas pump, and I seriously doubt they'd notice much of a drop off(unless they're in one insanely bizarre situation where every single day they refuel)

Seriously- are you people insane? Thats like saying that, if you don't eat once a week and eat all you want the rest of the week, you'll lose enough weight to put McDonalds out of business. But thats not how it works- what you didn't eat the one day you'll simply eat the next, and if you don't fill up one day, you'll simply fill up the next.

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong about their feelings on the gas crisis- but this boycott is asinine. It solves nothing expect giving you a warm fuzzy feeling for doing nothing to solve the problem.

You want to stop all these high gas prices, its extremely simply- CONSERVE.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 161
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:02:00 PM

YEAH...CONSERVE!!! In fact, quit your job so you won't have to drive, move your family into one room and burn your dogs poop for heat, Buy a horse and wagon and pool with your friends when ya go to church on Sunday!! That will show them!!!

You like to use extreme position-options of the consequences of conserving, rather than taking an intelligent, complex, thoughtful, and well-reasoned approach to the issue.

Conservation involves many levels of personal and social choices and realities.

And the capitalization and frequent exclamation marks you ubmit in your posts are a further sign of someone trying to make his point by emotion rather than logic.

You also continue to put words in the mouths of your opponents here.

I haven't heard a single person on this thread say that a major and practical way to conserve is going to come through "burning poop, buying horses and wagons, and car pooling to church".

The fact is that the average American household makes 11 separate car trips per day. If you think about it for longer than 3 seconds, do you posit a serious position that all those trips are necessary?

The U.S. has 5% of the world's population but uses 25% per cent of its resources. Should they be let off the hook simply because "hey, we can afford it ,and it's there"?

McMansions for one or two are still being built, bought, occupied and heated, and the residents are driving the extra (and needless) extra miles for all kinds of reasons not having to do with getting to work.

Could the above people just-- perhaps-- conserve a little?

There is an ocean of junk food bought (packaged in plastic [petroleum based]) by a population whose obesity levels are reaching epidemic proportions. Could they conserve by cutting back, even eliminating, these purchases?

Look at rush hour traffic, and the vast majority are single-person users. Can all these people be given the excuse that it's impossible to coordinate a pooling system to work when they're all going to the same one-square mile radius work station during the same hours? Or perhaps, is it that they just don't want to bother with the "inconvenience" and of having to interact with others during their pre-work "blue period"?

I could go on and on with scores of other examples. But likely you'll just come back with another argument based on environmental nutbars instead of perspective.
Joined: 3/17/2004
Msg: 162
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/9/2007 6:26:48 PM
i was working in downtown St Louis Mo today.
there was a "ballgame" going on.

i saw many, many , many SUV's driving areound looking for a parking place.
(there aren't enough) most had 2 occupants. one after another, it looked liked they were following each other, looking for a place to park.

on the way home, i saw more red shirrts. these people drive over a hundred miles to drive around in circles. must be nice!!!
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 164
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/10/2007 5:32:59 AM
>>>When the reality is that the people who are willing to inflict economic hardship on those working at the bottom of the fuel industry "food chain" (gas station workers) for no other reason than to make themselves feel "empowered" (why does that word annoy me?) are the ones who are truly selfish.'re kidding right?

the people who work at a gas station to pay for rent and put food on the table, they're being selfish? And you, attempting to harm greedy rich people, in your efforts, are only harming those who are poor because you don't want to deal with the inconvenience of solving the problem- you're the one being generous here?

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that, if your job is pumping gas for 8 or more hours a day, you'll be lucky to make minimum wage. And these people are the greedy ones?

Sounds like that if you're making the absolute minimum amount you can legally earn, if that, then chances are you're not there because you're swimming in money- you're there because you have none.
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 165
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/11/2007 7:01:01 AM

Well then yes. Yes I did misunderstand you. You are completely right.

>>>Isn't it amazing at all the little cry babies who point out how someone should do something about this or that but when someone tries to make a small effect, cynics get in there cynical band waggon, and point out how it wont work...

Feel free to prove what was said to be wrong. A single day gas boycott will not work- making a pledge to use LESS gas, or no gas at all on certain day on the other hand, will work.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 166
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/11/2007 8:30:20 AM

Isn't it amazing at all the little cry babies who point out how someone should do something about this or that but when someone tries to make a small effect, cynics get in there cynical band waggon, and point out how it wont work... There such good little sheep aren't they! You'll be eaten first....

I'd say you misunderstand tremendously. None of the people all gung ho to participate in this by not buying gas for 1 day are willing to actually refrain from USING gas for a day. They'll still use the same amount, and buy more before of after the *strike*. Net effect is nothing. If you still use the same amount, you've taken nothing away from the gas company at all. It's incredibly simple, and mind boggling that people don't get it.

To make a difference you'd have to all NOT DRIVE on that day, which would reduce the oil used, not simply change the day you payed for it on.

This *strike* is a token gesture so you can feel you did something without actually having done a damn thing. What are you sacrificing ? Not a damn thing. What are you showing them ? Nothing. If tons of people united and actually didn't drive that day, that would show something and make the oil companies take notice. As is, it's an empty gesture made because it's easy to do.

And when gas shortages eventually happen, all these "rebels" will be sitting in line for hours to fill up...
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 168
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/13/2007 10:55:30 PM

Good luck Palfrey... But don't hang around here to long, the brainiacs will break it down for you and tell you why it will have no effect. They think it would have more effect if you unplug your computer to save electricity.

By Braniacs, RK means people who can understand that if you still use the same amount of gas, it doesn't matter if you bought it Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, you still used the same amount and still end up spending the same amount, just on a different day. If your usage stays the same, you've changed nothing.

Out of the tons of people who say they'd not by gas that day, how many would actually take the step to not use gas that day? maybe 1% ? 5% even ? Practically none, and why ? because it would actually take effort and cause some difficulty for them, and most people won't deal with any sacrifice on their part unless it is forced upon them.

You want to make the oil company pay attention? Don't drive for a week.

You want to pretend you're doing something, don't buy gas for a day.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 170
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/14/2007 8:16:25 AM
RK, I didn't say not buying gas for a week would have some huge effect, I said it would be what would get the oil companies attention. Prices are high and will stay high, light crude is running out, the majority of refineries are tooled to handle light. Switching to heavy is costly and will require refineries to shut down to do so, causing higher prices as less product hits the market while demand goes up. Shortages are a real possibility for this summer, depending on what part of North America you're in.

Oh, and for those that think their 1 day strike will do anything...
Here's the history of how incredibly effective this repeated idea has been.
Joined: 5/9/2007
Msg: 171
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/14/2007 8:46:24 AM
Hi All:

I was watching the news last week, and they did mention about the gas strike on May 15th. However, they stated that even if we did strike it wouldn't make a difference. I think the only way it would make a difference would be if we went on strike for 2-3 consecutive days. Something needs to be done. There is absolutely no reason for gas prices to keep going up.
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 172
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/14/2007 9:16:37 AM
Fearme... there are tons of reasons for gas prices to keep going up.

You do realize that supplies are the lowest they've been in 16 years in the USA, right?

You do know that the supergiant fields, Ghawar in Saudi Arabia, and Cantarell in Mexico are in different stages of decline. Right?

You must know that new oil discoveries do not keep up with usage or demand.

Quoted from

We passed Peak light sweet crude two years ago.

This explains everything that is happening right now. The news media is talking about how the US is having refining problems that is true and untrue at the same time. If there was an ample supply of light sweet oil, there would not be a refining issue.

The US refiners are however trying to add equipment like mad to be able to refine heavy and sour grades of oil. The equipment is very expensive and cannot produce like a refinery running on LS feedstock.
Sour oil is high in sulfur and produces sulfuric acid during production it destroys equipment the faster you run the process. The harder you run these refineries the more fires and accidents you are going to have overall utilization is driven down.

Watch the news for fires at refineries, they are happening far more regularly than before. Many refineries had to put off maintenance and upgrades after Katrina, and that also takes it's toll on the systems.

And you really should read the snopes link I posted. It explains quite clearly why the strike won't work, and hasn't worked the previous times it was tried...
Joined: 8/5/2006
Msg: 173
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There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/14/2007 9:49:10 AM
This has been a most excellent thread. Thanks to many for your well researched posts and knowledge on this particular topic.

I, for one, WILL gas up today. I drive a small sedan that gets great gas mileage. I bike or walk whenever I can. I live ever so close to work. I also car pool with a co-workers many times. This is how I fight gas prices.

For those that do not quite understand, here's the most simplistic way I can describe. If you want to lower gas prices, trade in your SUVs (really, how much off-roading do you really do?), Vans, Hummers (yeah, we all need tanks to drive to work, LOL) and general gas guzzlin' cars. Buy something that's efficient on gas. Drive less.

If everyone in the world did this, then the price would fall. As simple as that.

This is a great web site with tons of info. I strongly urge all to take a gander:
 call me J
Joined: 12/13/2005
Msg: 174
There is a GAS STRIKE ON MAY 15
Posted: 5/14/2007 10:00:33 AM

This is a great web site with tons of info. I strongly urge all to take a gander:

Nice to see someone else here knows that.

Possibly some of the most in depth info you'll find, including the realities of every alternative energy source available. A lot of people will be very surprised... if they actually take the time to read it through.
Joined: 1/2/2007
Msg: 175
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oil addiction the root cause of terrorism
Posted: 5/14/2007 10:12:57 AM
I use the buses, don't have a car. However, I have asked many friends and acquaintances to honor the gas strike, and many of those say they will. There's been so much talk about terrorism lately, and some bloggers have villainized me as excusing the terrorists. I hate Bin Laden and his ilk as much as I hate the Ku Klux Klan! In fact, that's precisely what I call Al Qaeda: "the Bellydance KKK." My only anger against western society is that racial minorities have suffered so much white terrorism, and it still happens to a lesser degree, or in subtle guise. And bitterness about the memory of Japanese-American internment is behind my determination to protect law-abiding Muslims. But Bin Laden himself? I'd like to feed him alive to a Florida alligator.

Indeed, my concern about both imported terrorism and nativist bigotry are precisely
part of why I'm so vehemently for developing American-origin fuels. Once oil becomes history, like the horse-and-buggy, we can tell the Hugo Chavez and the Saudis to go sheikh-and-bake. We don't need you anymore!

Therefore please understand. Gas strikes are more than just forcing big oil to respect the American consumer. They are literally PATRIOTIC, a matter of national security. It is precisely because of oil that we're in bed with the Saudis. It's precisely because we need them that the tail is wagging the dog, that two-bit village dictators
can make a laughing stock of Earth's greatest power.

I have no problem with Exxon, Mobil, Gulf, etc making reasonable levels of profit if they switch over to solar energy, wind, tidal, and other sources that originate under American control. But we need some kind of peaceful civil disobedience against
obscenely high costs. Also, an increasing demand by enraged Americans to develop America-originating energy sources.
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