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 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 104
Does God exist?Page 2 of 245    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
^^^^ funny, ..

thanks, I needed the laugh..

sexxy as h_ll too ;_
 tdh46
Joined: 1/7/2007
Msg: 106
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/17/2007 9:20:21 PM
I honestly don't know. I believe there is someone obviously greater than us in the universe, But god? If he really does exist why does he desert the kids and let some of them suffer so? I look at babies dying of aids and i say no, i look at babies born addicted to drugs and i say no. I look at kids dying of cancer and i say no. I can understand in some ways bad things happening to grown up, I just don't see the point of a loving god hurting kids or worst yet taking them from this world before they even start living. Why bring them into this world only to make them suffer.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 112
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History
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/18/2007 1:30:26 AM
The evidence that a scientific [natural] process took place is that science has been able to provide explanations for virtually everything previously ascribed to "God". The God explanation is unsupported because there is NO process which requires an explanation based on something indefinable and inexplicable. Both have a basis in faith. Science says "we have found working explanations thus far, we believe will find explanations for this." Religion says "I can't explain it, so I'll attribute it to something else I can't explain".

Stone spoke of experiences being within the brain...poor argument. Inasmuch as we DO sense everything through the brain, he's right. To classify a spiritual "experience" alongside smell, taste, touch, heat, etc, is a crucial error. A billion people may say "I experienced the same thing", but not ONE of them can witness, explain, or recreate the experience of another. Each experience is individual and internal, and it is real only insofar as everyone may have such an experience. Since they can't be observed externally, they can't be used as evidence.
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 115
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/18/2007 9:59:24 AM

"Probably because Judaism has a set cap. You can't properly "convert". You're either one of the chosen people of Israel, or you're not."



Well....according to Jehovah's Witnesses there are to be 144, 000 "chosen"

they ALREADY HAVE "MORE THAN THAT".

so WTF do they go door-to-door & stand on streetcorners with "Awake" trying to recruit more people, who cannot possibly be part of the 144,000 "chosen" ??
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 122
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/19/2007 9:54:24 PM
To address only a couple points -

"Love" is not a valid comparison for God. Love is a more or less agreed-upon term to describe feelings. God is generally considered to be an external, independant entity. You can experience love because love is DEFINED as an experience. You can only CLAIM to experience God, as there is no evidence to prove God exists as a separate entity. No evidence which isn't circular AND erroneously supported.

You can redefine God any way you like to get around the argument, but what this really does is undermine your support by showing that your "faith" isn't all that faithful. Oops, that definition of God doesn't work, need a new one. This may be the essence of problems with some faiths [in particular Christianity] recently. So many things are spelled out explicitly and taken as "gospel"...and then decisively shown as false. Recorded history exceeds the age of the world according to the Bible, just to name one blatant example. Faiths which will survive the best will be those which are most vague. Perhaps a god exists, but to PROVE that, you will need to provide a definition for god which is subject to scientific testing and scrutiny. Good luck with that, if only because no-one will agree on the definition. Many would oppose a definition simply because it opens the possibility of proving god does NOT exist

THIS is interesting though:

Whatever "it" is - exists ....we cannot yet understand, explain or prove it


Man's ego... WILL be his downfall

Is it not egotistical to claim with certainty that something exists, while in the same breath stating that you can't explain or prove it?

Do not let religion blind you ...

Indeed.

Now, to be clear, my main argument is not whether or not God exists. Believe what you will. Just don't use science to support it, because it NEVER works. Citing uncertainties in science is not a valid shelter either. Some things ARE fact. 1+1=2 and the sky is blue [partly because that is how we define "blue"]. Science can't prove God because no-one has defined God.

As an aside - I'm not sure about T-rex having feathers. Many of the smaller theropods have been shown to be feathered [AND scaled], but evidence lacking for the larger ones. Until recently, all skin impressions from dinosaurs were scaly. Existing theropods have scales as well as feathers. Available evidence made it reasonable to conclude scales as the skin covering of most or all dinosaurs. At this point, I *think* that saying T.rex was feathered would be more of an erroneous guess than feathers would be [googles theropod skin coverings...oh...I HAVE that issue of Nature...I forgot]. Interesting. An ancestor of T rex [Dilong paradoxus] appears to have been feathered, but the larger descendants, such as Tyrranosaurus are still believed to have been completely or largely unfeathered. Not a stretch, given that all birds are feathered and scaled, and feathers are basically just specialized scales. Just an off-topic tangent...
 TravisE
Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 131
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:01:13 PM

Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil.


Only from a dualistic, pro-christian, viewpoint. God, Being, Spirit, totality could be all inclusive and beyond separate values of form. Having no opposite, God lies beyond thinking comprehension anf can be perceived only as a light within all Forms. From this POV, there is not Devil required. Just us, and how we screw each other up. That way we shoulder full blame, and responsibility, and we have full ability to change the world without some boogey-man of a Devil getting in our way and excusing our lazyness.
 Manifest_Destiny
Joined: 5/10/2007
Msg: 137
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/25/2007 9:00:36 PM
If God exists he clearly does not want us to know He exists.

Frankly I think the idea of a big guy with a grey beard up in the sky deciding our fates is a fairy tale. God to me is infinite, and infinite is everything. God is everything. The various religions are stories told to make the concept of infinity more digestible for the uneducated masses who cannot grasp the fact of something limitless, something that was never made because it always existed.
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 141
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/26/2007 11:57:58 AM
"didn't we take God out of our schools!!!!"


Isn't God omnipresent?


I believe he must have meant that "man" decided not to emphasize his artificial creation/idea called 'god' at schools..

The idea that 'man' could "take god out of schools", while believing that god is omnipresent and omnipotent, helps to define just how ludicrous the entire 'belief system' is.
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 144
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History
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/27/2007 3:54:05 PM
I'm sitting here with God right now,,,, God is laughing at this forum.
Yes, God has a great sense of humor,,,,, uhhh,,, Thank God
 judyarlinepuckett
Joined: 11/24/2006
Msg: 145
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/27/2007 6:51:03 PM
Believing in God gives a person comfort and hope,
I don't see God as a human being,
more of the spirit that I feel within myself,
not in the stars,but within the heart,
Aug 3 1925 There was a news article published of proof,
there is a soul,I have forgotten the name of the sciencist,
But recent studies of George Shollenberger have been interesting.
Personally I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
Faith is believing in things unseen.
Faith the size of a mustard seed moves mountains,
faith in yourself-faith in God.
Death is a frightening thought for us all,
but another frightening thought,
is those who still breathe,
but are dead inside.
Living is more than existing,
Existing is more than living and breathing,
There is something inside of us,
that makes each of us who we are,
and I don't believe that ever stops existing.
 judyarlinepuckett
Joined: 11/24/2006
Msg: 146
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/27/2007 7:04:51 PM
:
I agree with Manifest_Destiny's philosophy to a certain extent,- God to me is infinite, and infinite is everything. God is everything. The various religions are stories told to make the concept of infinity more digestible for the uneducated masses who cannot grasp the fact of something limitless, something that was never made because it always existed.
Very elogently put,I believe you have a grasp of the meaning of God -Manifest_Destiny.
But on this I do not agree-If God exists he clearly does not want us to know He exists.
but I do believe He wants us to know He exists,
He wants us to have faith and feel His existence.
 judyarlinepuckett
Joined: 11/24/2006
Msg: 147
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/27/2007 7:06:14 PM
This is beautiful;;;
God exists as long as man exists.
God exists as long a love exists.
God exists as long as life exists
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 149
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/30/2007 9:41:17 AM
Yes God exists..DON'T make Him come down there!
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 151
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/30/2007 9:58:56 AM
^^

"The fact that belief in the existence of God offers many people comfort and hope does not constitute evidence about the existence of God. I wish it did, but it does not. "


however it may be a "useful" delusion ?
 johnny prophet
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 152
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/30/2007 11:27:33 AM
(Quoted from J. Krishnamurti in the book "The First and Last Freedom" published in 1954.)

Krishnamurti on GOD (emphasis in bold is mine.):

You cannot find truth through anybody else. How can you? Truth is not something static; it has no fixed abode; it is not an end, a goal. On the contrary, it is living, dynamic, alert, alive. How can it be an end? If Truth is a fixed point it is no longer truth; it is then a mere opinion.

Truth is the unknown, and a mind that is seeking truth will never find it, for mind is made up of the known, it is the result of the past, the outcome of time -- which you can observe for yourself.

Mind is the instrument of the known, hence it cannot find the unknown; it can only move from the known to the known.

When the mind seeks truth, the truth it has read about in books, that 'truth' is self-projected; for then the mind is merely in pursuit of the known, a more satisfactory known than the previous one.

When you think of God, your God is the projection of your own thought, the result of social influences. You can think only of the known; you cannot think of the unknown, you cannot concentrate on truth. The moment you think of the unknown, it is merely the self-projected known. God or truth cannot be thought about. If you think about it, it is not truth. Truth cannot be sought: it comes to you. You can go only after what is known. When the mind is not tortured by the known, by the effects of the known, then only can truth reveal itself.

Truth is in every leaf, in every tear; it is to be known from moment to moment. No one can lead you to truth; and if anyone leads you, it can only be to the known.

Truth can only come to the mind that is empty of the known. It comes in a state in which the known is absent, not functioning. The mind is the warehouse of the known, the residue of the known; for the mind to be in that state in which the unknonw comes into being, it must be aware of itself, of its previous experiences, the conscious as well as the unconscious, of its responses, reactions, and structure.

When there is complete self-knowledge, then there is the ending of the known, then the mind is completely empty of the known. It is only then that truth can come to you uninvited. Truth does not belong to you or me. You cannot worship it. The moment it is known, it is unreal. The symbol is not real, the image is not real; but when there is the understanding of self, the cessastion of self, then eternity comes into being.


Krishnamurti on Belief in God:

Let us look at the problem widely and intelligently. I am not denying God -- it would be foolish to do so. Only the man who does not know reality indulges in meaningless words. The man who says he knows, does not know; the man who is experiencing reality from moment to moment has no means of communicating that reality.

Belief is a denial of truth, belief hinders truth; to believe in God is not to find God. Neither the believer nor the non-believer will find God; because reality is the unknown, and your belief or non-belief in the unknown is merely a self-prjectection and therefore not real.

I know you believe and I know it has very little meaning in your life. There are many people who believe; millions believe in God and take consolation. First of all, why do you believe? You believe because it gives you satisfaction, consolation, hope and you say it gives significance to life. Actually your beliefe has very little significance, because you believe and exploit, you believe and kill, you believe in a universal God and murder each other. The rich man also believes in God; he exploits ruthlessly, accumulates money, and then builds a temple or becomes a philanthropist.

The men who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima said that God was with them; those who flew from England to destroy Germany said that God was their co-pilot. The dictators, the prime ministers, the generals, the presidents, all talk of God, they have immense faith in God. Are they doing service, making a better life for man?

The people who say they believe in God have destroyed half the world and the world is in complete misery. Through religious intolerance there are divisions of people as believers and non-believers, leading to religious wars.

Is belief in God a "powerful incentive to better living"? Why do you want an incentive to better living? Surely your incentive must be your own desire to live cleanly and simply, must it not? If you look to an incentive, you are not interested in making life possible for all, you are merely interested in YOUR incentive, which is differenty from mine -- and we will quarrel over the incentive.

If we live happily together not because we believe in God but because we are human beings, then we will share the entire means of production in order to produce things for all. Through lack of intelligence, we accept the idea of a super-intelligence which we call 'God'; but this 'God', this super-intelligence, is not going to give us a better life.

What leads to a better life is intelligence; and there cannot be intelligence if there is belief, if there are class divisions, if the means of production are in the hands of a few, if there are isolated nationalities and sovereign governments. All this obviously indicates lack of intelligence and it is the lack of intelligence that is preventing a better living, not a non-belief in God.

You all believe in different ways, but your belief has no reality whatsoever. Reality is what you are, wh at you do, what you think, and your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid and cruel life.

Furthermore, belief invariably divides people: there is the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Christian, the communist, the socialist, the capitalist, and so on. Belief, idea, divides; it never brings people together. You may bring a FEW people together in a group but that group is opposed to another group. Ideas and beliefs are never unifying; on the contrary, they are separative, disintegrating and destructive. Therefore your belief in God is really spreading misery in the world; though it may have brought you momentary consolation, in actuality is has brought you more misery and destruction in the form of wars, famines, class-divisions and the ruthless action of separate individuals. So your belief has no validity at all. If you really believed in God, if it were a real experience to you, then your face would have a smile, you would not be destroying human beings.

Now, what is the reality, what is God? God is not the word, the word is not the thing. To know that which is immeasurable, which is not of time, the mind must be free of time, which means the mind must be free from all thought, from all ideas about God.

What do you know about God or truth? You do not really know anything about that reality. All that you know are words, the experiences of others or some moments of rather vague experience of your own. Surely that is not God, that is not reality, that is not beyond the field of time.

To know that which is beyond time, the process of time must be understood, time being thought the process of becoming, the accumulation of knowledge. That is the whole background of the mind; the mind itself is the background, both the conscious and the unconscious, the collective and the individual. So the mind must be free of the known, which means the mind must be completely silent, not made silent.

The mind that achieves silence as a result, as the outcome of determined action, of practice, of discipline, is not a silent mind. The mind that is forced, controlled, shaped, put into a frame and kept quiet, is not a still mind. You may succeed for a period of time in forcing the mind to be superficially silent, but such a mind is not a still mind. Stillness comes only when you understand the whole process of thought, because to understand the process is to end it and the ending of the process of thought is the beginning of silence.

Only when the mind is completely silent not only on the upper level, but fundamentally, right through, on both the superficial and the deeper levels of consciousness -- only then can the unknown come into being. The unknown is not something to be experienced by the mind; silence alone can be experienced, nothing but silence. If the mind experiences anything but silence, it is merely projecting its own desires and such a mind is not silent; so long as the mind is not silent, so long as thought in any form, conscious or unconscious, is in movement, there can be no silence.

Silence is freedom from the past, from knowledge, from both conscious and unconscious memory; when the mind is completely silent, not in use, when there is the silence which is not a product of effort, only then does the timeless, the eternal come into being. That state is not a state of remembering -- there is no entity that remembers, that experiences.

Therefore God or truth or what you will is a thing that comes into being from moment to moment, and it happens only in a state of freedom and spontaneity, not when the mind is disciplined according to a pattern. God is not a thing of the mind, it does not come through self-projection, it comes only when there is virtue, which is freedom. Virtue is facing the fact of what is and the facing of the fact is a state of bliss. Only when the mind is blissful, quiet, without any movement of its own, without the projection of thought, conscious or unconscious -- only then does the eternal come into being.
 phine_likker
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 154
Does God exist?
Posted: 5/30/2007 12:00:22 PM
^^^


Executive summary please!!


yeah, some people DO get carried away with the cut & paste function!!

do you realise that when you copy pages of stuff like that, hardly anyone reads it anyway.

a bit self-defeating ?
 johnny prophet
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 155
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/30/2007 1:27:27 PM

yeah, some people DO get carried away with the cut & paste function!!


Perhaps they do. I typed that all out by hand, from an honest-to-goodness book. Shame on me for sharing.



do you realise that when you copy pages of stuff like that, hardly anyone reads it anyway.
a bit self-defeating ?



I didn't realize I was doing anything here for anything other than my own amusement. Why are you doing it?
 johnny prophet
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 158
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Does God exist?
Posted: 5/30/2007 7:30:07 PM

There's no shame in it JP... It is a thought provoking viewpoint... Some people can't handle seeing truth in the words of others because they depend on their belief and don't want to question it... Their loss... Those of us here to learn others views and learn will read it if it catches us... Pretty close to my beliefs...

But it IS better to add something from yourself along with a quote or exerp from a book...


It's the book I finished reading most recently. I thought it was quite interesting. the two "famous" Krishnamurtis (U.G. and J., whom I quoted) have a very modern way of explaining the state of mind that Buddhism calls "Enlightenment" and Christianity calls "Being reborn."

I think both of those perspectives are generally misunderstood to mean some far-off spiritual "mystical" metaphorical experience, and not a description of an actual working state of mind.

I'll share more of my OWN thoughts later.
 eaglestogether
Joined: 5/24/2007
Msg: 159
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Does God exist?
Posted: 7/10/2007 5:01:27 AM
Does God exist?

I don't really know the full answer. To me it is a spiritual abstraction that has been fed by input from doctrine, success stories, what is written in the bible, by faith and by belief.
As a scientist, I see things abstractedly, we design things from abstract and it makes sense because of the patterns, symmetry, chaos and beauty to the eye and in the mind.
We do not see God, but in the abstract sense I believe we can.
I am still seeking.
 Midion
Joined: 2/26/2007
Msg: 162
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Does God exist?
Posted: 7/11/2007 1:02:41 AM
The Devil is not really a counter weight... he's just a fallen angel...
 AtlDC03
Joined: 7/8/2007
Msg: 164
Does God exist?
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:28:24 AM
"to quantify a superbeing that has the time to watch over all of us seems unlikely. Whats interesting to note is that if you look at history monotheism is has only been around for 2,000 or so years (give or take). While some christians think they have the monopoly on faith, polytheism is alive and well in other countries and has existed long before Jesus was walking around. "

Monotheism is much older than that. Christianity is not the first monotheisistic religion. Judeo-Christian faith is unique in that it is one of the few monotheistitic religions.

Does God exist? I believe in God. Ask me to prove it? I can't prove it to me just like someone else can't prove that God does not exist. You cannot also prove that emotions exist; you cannot prove love or hate, yet you know what they feel like but you cannot prove their existance.
 veevee
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 169
Does God exist?
Posted: 7/14/2007 9:39:49 PM
I'm going with no.
My personal opinion is that gods were invented by mankind because mankind doesn't like the idea of death being the end of them. I think it's the brain and ego dealing with the reality of death. The brain does this " I don't die, I'm too special and worthwhile, I will continue after this body is gone because I'm just too precious to dissolve into nothingness and someone planned this for me ahead of my birth, hey that guy over there says he has a story about someone that controls all this - I'm going to follow them" . That's why a good number of cultures have them and why they are diverse to me because there isn't a true model to examine, it's all faith, none of them are willing to accept death and some even believe in an extreme version by throwing reincarnation in there. They get multiple lives and deaths.
I've never heard of anyone that believed in a god that didn't think that god was willing to help them in some way. If you know of someone who believes in god as a totally horrid creature that mankind should avoid because they can't be catered to, then you could throw me off.
Of course, mine is not a popular opinion, but oh well, it's mine to have.
 Spence56
Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 173
Does God exist?
Posted: 7/15/2007 8:04:39 PM
In my humble opinion...Yes...

Can you prove that God exists? I don't think so. The point is to have faith that God exists, not to have a perfect knowledge of it. If you believe that God exists and as a result there is a reason to live and truths that can make you successful in the purpose of your life, then you prove to God and to yourself that you are mindful of him by learning about him and obeying his commandments. To obey God isn't like being a slave, it's like being kind of stupid. God loves us so His guidance will always be the Right thing...so who wouldn't want to know correct principles as opposed to incorrect ones?

Does the Devil exist? Sure he does. And he hates all things that are correct and good. If you choose to ignore that which is good and do that which is wrong then you choose to place yourself away from God.

The point of the many stars in the Heavens is the Creation. They say that God's creations are without number. So why would we impose a restriction to God's creations to being the creation of the people and things on one little blue planet. Every star you see is a Sun of one kind or another. As such it has the potential to give planets light and heat and to be ordered to allow for life to be able to survive.

If you think of God as the creator of all things, and think about the numbers of stars in the heavens, God becomes even more difficult to prove. The numbers are too great to comprehend. You can choose to have faith or you can choose to believe in the things of this world. The beauty of this creation is that you get to choose. And what blessings you receive in this life and in the next will be predicated on your decisions, not someone elses. Therefore we will be responsible for ourselves.
 veevee
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 174
Does God exist?
Posted: 7/15/2007 8:07:00 PM
Santa is based on a real person.
Saint Nicholas, tho I don't think he used chimneys, we embelish that part.
Santa is like the movie version while Nicholas is the book version.
:P
Everyone knows the tooth fairy is a farce. What the heck would someone do with all those teeth?
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