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 Yourbestestfriend
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 234
Does God exist?Page 4 of 245    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
[qoute]Your "proof" requires too many assumptions, limited by human thought. Why would a supreme being actually give a damn what a mortal thought? He's got countless billions of them ranging from the smallest Archaeobacteria to the blue whale - and that's just on this planet. Only human ego requires particular personality traits of deities, when their very nature makes them mentally nothing like us.

To the limits of supremacy, it could easily be argued that complex thought processes are an emergent property. It would be possible for deity to create all, set it all in motion, watch all, tinker here and there...and still be unable to predict or know everything. That much, we can do, on a much smaller scale - we create things, make them interact, but can't predict every result with perfection. The interactions create emergent properties, and the myriad interactions are far more complex than the basic structures and laws underlaying them all



It goes againts what god is supposed to be like

One concept, and one limited by human thought. Doesn't make it the right concept.



And for those who beleive God is loving, how can he be loving if he lets you suffer? is he careless? that means he is not caring then. To care is to love and if he does not care he does not love.

Again, this is a human thought limitation. Care and love are OUR concepts, and they are only points on a scale. There wouldn't be words for these if the scale didn't exist. They are also consequences of life. Life without "badness" just wouldn't be life. The universe we know has 'finite' resources [at least, within reach of most life forms]. For any life to continue, other life has to end at some point. That makes death a requirement for continued life, and what we call evil is just extreme cases of individuals trying to guarantee their own survival. THEN, there's the matter of a deity which can see or plan the future... We often hear arguments regarding the deaths of children - "she could have been the one to cure cancer"... or she might have been the next Stalin...or the cruelty imposed on one might be the key event which leads to someone else not becoming the next Stalin. The only one who knows - is the deity.

"Logic" regarding the behavior of a deity depends far too much on assumptions made by non-deities[qoute]

So what your basically saying and doing is that you ignore what god is supposed to mean and be like? All your saying is my logic is not capable of understanding because I am human. So by your logic I anyone can assume that you don't know what the hell your talking about because your human. your best excuse is that I am using human thought. Wow so i guess there must be a circle out there with right angles and 4 sides huh? Oh srry I am using only human thought so I most likely wrong. Oh I am usuing human thought so I guess there could be a serial killer who saves all his victims from deaf right? Its not proof enough. I am sorry I am just assuming that virgins never had sex. I am just using human thought.. .. yea my logic is flawed because I am using common sense skills and critical thinking. Maybe your logic is flawed because your delusional or lack common sense. So I guess being caring can mean being careless huh? So i guess if raping somone is the same as concentual sex by someone elses logic it could be true right? Just because we have a different concept? Wow I don't know where you got this sort of logic. Rape is rape, Black is black, carlessness is carelessness. I guess when you love someone you are very careless about someones well being. Yea that makes perfect sense. You go tell that to everybody you know. Its funny how you say my proof is limited by human thought, when your proof of gods existince is mere thought as well. And pretty illogical and delusional. Persistingly ignoring commen sense facts. Like caring means caring. Not careless. go ask aenglish teacher if caring means careless they will tell you no. In any country. You tell me it could make sense that you can love someone and not care about them. Yeah makes perfect sense doesn't it. No one ever said about predicting every result with perfection. either. Its about common sense. If some one tells you that a person is caring and loving he is caring and loving. Not careless. If someone loves you they do't let you suffer greatly unreasonably even if you have been a good person and is loyal all your life. Unless that person is evil, careless, loveless, or insane. Its funny that your saying in there is a diety is by only of human thought alone. Your logic is so flawed in so many ways. you say my logic flawed because I am using human thought alone. Yet you are using human thought alone. Its funny how you ignore my very important points on god also. If he created all , is all knowing, all powerful, is all supreme and eternal why is he such a bad manager and can't overpower his enemies, does not know how to do so even if he created his enemies, should know how it fix breaks or works. Being the creator of all you should not be limited to creating a way to solve his problems. I mean he has only had since the beggining of timeif he were real. I mean thats plenty time for a god to overpower and out think his problems. If he can create the world in only a couple days. Creating light without a sunlight or moon and creating plants before a sunlight or moon was created according to the bible. You tell me does that make perfect sense? Or are yo ugoing to tell me some poor combat as to my concept of how a world is created does not mean its right just by human thought alone? You tell me how trees growing fruits can survive without a sun or moon. tell me how its possible with human thought alone. Be reasonable about it. Maybe I could believe it. If a diety was caring I think the diety would care about what mortals think and think about it? I mean whats next, your going to tell me someone who is caring is careless? whats next... Someone that is a coward is daring and brave?
 Yourbestestfriend
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 237
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 8:15:47 AM
Thats a very nice story and good for you that you have recovered from that disease. but what does god have to do with that? Wouldn't it be your doctor or medicine that saved you. Your treatment. I mean if God was caring and loving in the 1rst place he wouldn't have to make you suffer if you were already a good person would he? Unless he likes to see people suffer but ocasionally takes a break of making people suffer which is not very loving to me. Don't know about you.
 Yourbestestfriend
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 238
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 8:31:59 AM
Thats like saying you were saved by a combat medic or hospital corpsman in a war. You were bleeding rapidly from loosing your leg but you were saved luckily. The combat medic treats your wounds. Saves you from deaf, and you thank pamala anderson, the tooth fairy, your mom, Santa claus, the president or the founding father of your nation. Which really doesnt make sense. You should be thanking the combat medic. Not some other thing. The person who has treated you is the person you should be thanking or the person who made the medication that treated you. They are the ones who saved you.
 movinonthrough
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 239
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 12:44:38 PM
To your best friend.

You'll get no where with frog eyes. He is illogical and preachy. He doesn't have an open mind. He is very set in what he believes. I have asked him all the same questions you have and more and when i did he didn't answer them once i worded the questions by his logic and then fired them at him. I pointed out all of his illogic and set up all the contradictions he was saying in a clear way and he responded with silence. Consequently an entire 5 page thread called an appeal to reason was deleted because frog eyes was the only one up to the task of trying to debate it.

The following are some some examples of hypocrisy and contradiction that frog eyes has made when i glanced over page 3.

here he says

Your "proof" requires too many assumptions, limited by human thought. Only human ego requires particular personality traits of deities, when their very nature makes them mentally nothing like us.


Note by the way that all human knowledge falls within this criteria however that's not where the contradiction in his posts are. There are here in this next quote:




It would be possible for deity to create all, set it all in motion, watch all, tinker here and there...and still be unable to predict or know everything. That much, we can do, on a much smaller scale - we create things, make them interact, but can't predict every result with perfection.


Put these 2 quotes together and you have contradiction.

Yet another example of contradiction in Frog eyes post number 230




Anything real can be explained scientifically


Then in the same paragraph he states:


There is no amount of logic or science which can prove God. You believe or you do not, but trying to show evidence is a waste of effort.


In order for there to be no contradiction frog eyes would have to admit that he thinks god isn't real (which he was not trying to do by conjoining these 2 quotes) Because if god was real then it could be explained scientifically.

To be honest there is so much contradiction/hypocrisy/illogic in frog eyes posts that I'm at the point where i don't even want to read them anymore.

I could seriously list about 10 examples of frog eyes hypocrisy/contradiction/illogic but i don't want to spend my time doing that. He wouldn't address them anyways judging from past discussions. The end of the 5 page thread i mentioned earlier basically ended with me posting a List of all the contradictions he made and i did it in such a way as to make them really obvious. it was obvious the way he responded. here is some more flawed words from him



And for those who beleive God is loving, how can he be loving if he lets you suffer? is he careless? that means he is not caring then. To care is to love and if he does not care he does not love.

Again, this is a human thought limitation. Care and love are OUR concepts, and they are only points on a scale. There wouldn't be words for these if the scale didn't exist.


No sir. They're concepts that are not above or beneath god. It could be indifferent to them but if they are known to us they are known to that which created us.

he says


We often hear arguments regarding the deaths of children


It's what we don't hear that is more important - child rape. The intentional infliction of pain and torture on children. I give you the benefit of the doupt that you are not intentionally trying to avoid this unspeakable horror that happens EVERYDAY.

Kevin 2122 says



It is up to you whether he exists or not

This is a common "new age" belief that is wrong. To his defence, he never stated that he attempts to be logical.

It DOES NOT depend on us whether god exists or not. It either does or does not exist. It is however, up to you whether you want to BELIEVE that god exists or not.

Steelstar said:



God either exists or does not exist.



But is it as clear cut as that?

Yes it is. If it is not then the way we interpret knowledge and thus all knowledges' credibility is in jeopardy.
 paper dart
Joined: 5/22/2007
Msg: 240
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History
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 3:48:31 PM
95 % of the people on this planet don't know that they don't know
 dnam24
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 242
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 5:06:22 PM
I have been reading some quantum physics for laymen type books. Some of these are university texts. I do not pretend to know the math or have a full understanding. Still, one thing keeps popping up. The univers is as much mind as matter. They say a unified theory will need to have a variable for mind. Another theory is that we are all the same mind, and the divisions are apparant only to us. This was from a textbook I borrowed. I was also reading a book with many quotes by guys like schroedinger, and eccles. They consider the materialistic view to be an abberation of human history. From what I read, the implications of modern quantum theory are more like reading buddhism than tradtional Newtonian matter is everything stuff. My theory, is that most of us were taught the Newtonian god is dead, and we are all machines ideas. I think in 200 years your average persons philosophy will be radically different from today, and the idea of god is open. I am not atheist, and I am not religious.
As for the Universe being big. Even with god, kind of arrogant to assume we are the only things out there.
Anyway, glad you are searching, that is the important part. The answers are probably beyond our individual understanding anyway.
Oh, are you sure Einstein was an atheist? I mean, he had the "God does not play dice" quote.
Peace
 dnam24
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 243
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 5:26:23 PM
Love is real, science is just inadequate to explain it.
I agree, anyone who thinks their religion is the only path is maybe not thinking right. I say if only some small sect of religion is true, well then screw god for not making this known. Honestly, even a little psychology will let you know why it is attractive to believe this. I also do not think if such a religion were mandatory, that the Bible is enough of a hint. I have read some stuff on writing conventions of the time, and believe me, it is far from what we would call integrity. these conventions had integrity for them, but not for us. For example: If a prophet performed a miracle, and said the messiah would be even greater, they could just assume that the messiah did perform a miracle magnitudes greater than the profit. They did not need evidence, or eye witnesses. Why? The same reason a lot of people use to justify their belief and actions: because the bible (ok it was not yet the bible, but same idea) said so. If I went by this, i would have to start gathering farmers for a stoning in the city square. No one leaves their fields fallow any more.
My religion: raised catholic. Now I would say I am a christian/physics worshipper. Apparantly, like you, I see no conflict betwen science and god. Only someone arrogant enough to think they know everything would think they could understand a being who could create the universe. Like give me a break. Honestly, though, I am still pondering the existence of god. I am almost in a hurry to die, just to find out. Even if there is nothing.
I have read some stuff by phsyicists, and ruling god out is not as black and white as some people think science makes it. The universe is mind as much as matter. That everyhting is matter idea is outdated Newtonian based philosophy. Ok that is what I call it anyway. I am sure it pleased philosophers of the time to think they had outgrown the conept of god. I say, freaking prove it, which they can not do either way, so science aint much use in this area.
Oh, because I am here: Does it freak anyone else out that world leaders not only believe the apocolyptic stuff in the bible and some are actually trying to make it happen. That is freaking weird, and scarey. The guy who wrote the bible code, claims to have had access to all sorts of world leaders. Saddam was even rebuilding babylon to fulfill that part of it. Hmm, apocolypse by self fulfilling prophecy. I guess the tombstone of mankind may read: "Here lie idiots." Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing the Bible, just the way people use it. I read a lot of prohecy stuff when I was younger, and it is odd that stuff I thought was impossible (like finding a lost tribe of israel, which they have supported with both archeology and genetics) has actually happened. Then again, time like space is malable.
Peace.
 dnam24
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 244
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 5:34:47 PM
steelstar. Check out fractal logic. Not A is A. This realization drove me nuts in elementary symbolic logic. I only recently found that theories supported this. I just went with, well, not A is just a degree of A, so they are both A. I am sure the fractal logic people have much better reasons for saying this. What I am seeing on this sight are a lot of people who have been indoctrinated by science. More specifically the old "clockwork universe" idea. Quantum physics shoots this idea all to hell. At least the stuff I read. I never took physics in post secondary, but have read more than a few books for laymen. Something like "the secret" uses these ideas and takes them to a level of questionable truth. I used to be into occult stuff, and the secret is just new age, physics influenced rehash of the stuff I read on magic. Not saying there is not something to it, but a lot of it is no doubt psychological. I mean I lived it when I was younger, and stopped because it was too alienating, and I thought I might be going insane. Ha Ha, apparantly not much has changed. I do know that when you fell in tune with the universe, life is a lot different. Whether it is all in your head is something else.
peace.
 dnam24
Joined: 8/20/2007
Msg: 245
Does God exist?
Posted: 8/30/2007 5:40:58 PM
Cant get off this topic, and I still have to explain string theory to a pen pal. Like What I know about it could fit on a match cover.
I have always thought this about god.
The universe began with "I am."
We are thought, the universe is thought, god is thought.
Now I will shut up, and try to brush up on string theory.
Peace, and apologies to those who now hate me.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 248
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/2/2007 6:48:55 PM
A god will exist as long as some nelieves in them. Thousands of Greeks believed that Athena existed...but where are those believers and worshippers today? Thousands of gods over the centuries...some make it, some don't.

Almost "vampiristic" in their existance though. To actually "be" they have to have believers and worshippers. Feeding off that, they continue on...but when it gets cut off...they die off themselves....Hmmm....
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 252
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/3/2007 3:36:24 AM
Every time I ponder this question I always lead into the idea that God is nothing more than a being from a higher dimensional realm that is so capable of interacting with our universe that he has seeded our world with the microbes that eventually evolved into ourselves. I don't think anyone on this planet can truly comprehend what God really means, what an omnipotent being really is, because it would be so simple of a solution to violating physics that we can't fathom it.

But what I find funny about the bible and most related religions is they have you believe God is watching over you but yet he went to rest on the 7th day. Why did he rest, well let's look what he did before hand, he seeded the forest of the world, carved the seas of the world, that would require an extreme amount of energy, meaning he'd need to rest a very long time to regain that energy.

I do study science and even understand it's principles, but I also believe in a God, but I don't simply thing, oh god did this because I can't explain it any other way. But when you consider the possibility of seeding the world with micro-organisms that evolved into beings we know today on this planet, it would make sense that he calls them his creations. I don't believe God has a gender, I just use he in a general sense.
 paper dart
Joined: 5/22/2007
Msg: 256
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Does God exist?
Posted: 9/3/2007 10:18:56 PM
Fantastic to hear.....read
Exactly
If we can be in the here and now with love as our focal emotion then we have freedom and and then can enter into an unlimited supply..........of what ever we want.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 257
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/5/2007 4:57:59 PM
itz...good story! I liked that one!

Unfortunately I don't agree with the idea of "evil" being an absense of "good" I would think the word "chaos" would fit in more appropriately. In the absence of good, and evil, chaos would result. It is the balance between the two that keeps chaos in check.

Therefore, both good and evil, created for form balance.
 Dazed_n_confused
Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 260
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Does God exist?
Posted: 9/5/2007 8:54:58 PM
Okay... let's straighten something out there...

Atheists- DO NOT believe in ANY sort of God whatsoever... like, there is nothing

Theists- Believe in a God(s)

Agnostic- Belief in a God, but not the traditional God as described by religions

I am the latter, I mean, you just have to look at it this way.... every event has a cause or reason which starts the event... i drop a ball on the ground, my brain told my hand to drop the ball, the ball fell and hit the ground, the first cause was my brain...

God is the first cause... you can't make something from nothing, and to say you can is insanity. The fact we are all alive and can dicuss this, is evidence a God (or Creator, God is far too religious for my liking)

Anyways, thats one way of looking at it, another is Pascal's wager... who says... it's better to believe in God than not. Because you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Let's say there is no God, and you worshiped God. When you die, nothing happens, but throughout your life your comforted that God exists...

Now, lets flip the scenario... Let's say your an atheist and believe in NO GOD... and there IS a God.. you die... there is a God... I'm sure it wouldn't be too pleased you denied it's existence...

Anyways... I don't believe in religion its a form of control, but I believe there must have been something to start the universe whatever that may be, whether its energy, a big bang or a celestial being... i dont care... but that is God
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 261
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Does God exist?
Posted: 9/5/2007 9:11:20 PM
Partly right, but agnostics generally do not believe in deities of any sort.

Typically, theists believe one or more deities exist.
Atheists believe NO deities exist
Agnostics, in general, are open to either possibility, but are unconvinced.

There are various flavors of each, and these definitions are more to clarify the status of agnostics. As an agnostic and a scientist, I am more atheistic. I do not believe in deities or the supernatural, but I also believe that nothing supernatural can be disproven. Therefore, I do not disbelieve, I simply do not find Pascal's wager to be worthy justification for faith in the unknowable.
 ass_clown
Joined: 8/31/2007
Msg: 263
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/6/2007 1:27:46 AM
disclaimer: i didn't read through the entire thread, but the original questions are classic... so i feel compelled to toss in my 2 cents.
****************************************

"As a person open to views about the Universe and about God I was wondering....
As far as we know the big bang happened and we were all created from Matter. From my old school Matter won over ant-matter and then Billions of years later were here."

no one that we know of existed then so it's anyone's guess. cosmology is interesting, but there's no way to know for sure.

"Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil. "

not necessarily. one can believe in a god without it being biblical.

"Where do they live? Where is Heaven? Is it beyond our universe?"

there are implied assumptions about these questions with which i have difficulty believing in. it is a moot question to ask about things "beyond" the physical universe, unless you want a way to imagine that anything could exist.

" If so why is it so big if we cant go to Mars whats the point in making Billions of stars and equal galaxies."

actually we can go to mars. see nasa.gov ..."the point" of anything assumes that there is some kind of meaning or purpose. i think you're falling into a anthropomorphic pitfall here. but if there were a purpose, wouldn't you say the billions of stars are just amazing? =)

"Imagine you die....you have no body or brain anymore, you exsist as matter, as Einstien said were all made of it and so is the universe so you never die."

actually, there is no such thing as matter in contemporary physics. but i see what i think you're getting at: there are some, say, protons that are part of your brain that will exist even after your death. while this is true, you no more live in those protons after your death than you did in the ones that existed before you were born that eventually became part of you. the primary difference is the direction of time and so its difficult to say whether one continues to live in any sense after you die. here, i like the quote "what we do in life echoes throughout eternity". so people can still have an impact upon the state of the universe even after they've died.

" But he didnt believe in god."

actually einstein did state he believed in god and infact defended his notion of god in several famous cases among the scientific crowd, which is typically agnostic or atheist. one of his more famous quotes, referring to quantum mechanics, is that "god doesn't play dice".

" So that makes no sense.
If you die then you will never know about time, never eat another apple, never use the PC again, never do the things we all do know in the physical. Its weird to think about it but its kind of scary."

yes, it would be rather difficult to do anything after you've died. unless you've perpetuated your will through some kind of legal trust or machine instructions.

as far as death being scary, you know, i doubt there has ever been a person who's not had the fear of death, the ultimate unknown, at some time in their lives. the way i look at it is fairly simple: you don't "remember" anything before you were born, because you didn't exist. likewise, after you die you don't exist and won't remember anything then either!

perhaps it's not a very reassuring way to look at things, but it's the most reasonable as far as i can see. moreover, it should give one a great sense of freedom to do as you will while you are alive.

cheers =P Jay
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 265
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/6/2007 11:53:36 AM
Besides...having a god around to curse and blame gives many the chance to sidestep their own weaknesses (look at AA....belief in a higher power because you are too weak to handle it yourself...nothing wrong with that...but using ;god; as your strength? If it works...why not?) and to not take responsibility for their own actions or inactions. Gotta have someone around to blame! Or blame for natural phenomenon(sp) that disrupts their daily living. Also, it brings great comfort to many and that, in itself, means they feel there is a place in their lives to support their system of shamen and temples.
Not many organizations help as much as the churches do....seems they always get the poor, downtrodden, etc at their doors, and all too often the collection plates rattle with spare change. There are less and less epople stepping forth to fill the pulpits in many parishes...so one person may have to look after 3-4 areas....not the easiest thing to do. People turn to their religions for comfort during hard times, and, sometimes, to celebrate during good ones.

Does God exist....does it matter, as long as there is a group of people all pulling towards bettering themselves, their community, and sharing the fellowship of mankind? Perhaps...perhaps not...but it does work!

 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 267
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Does God exist?
Posted: 9/7/2007 6:19:04 AM
Re: post #27


EXACTLY!

Thank you...absolutely perfectly explained.
 lucaspa
Joined: 5/28/2006
Msg: 268
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Does God exist?
Posted: 9/7/2007 6:16:55 PM
Altho the "Christian" student says " your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error" what is disguised here is that the story is full of strawmen versions of atheism, science, theism, and flawed philosophical premises.


"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"


Yes, I can. For a fuller answer I suggest you read Chapter 7 of Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller. It's about love and life having meaning. It's why I don't control my adult childrens' lives even tho I could: their lives have to have meaning.

The mistaken premise here is that changing anything, such as healing cancer, has no other effect or that those effects are negligible. What the brother wanted was what I call a "Vending Machine God" Put in your prayer coin and get your wish.


" Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it. ... immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the
absence of good?""

All of these are wrong. Heat is the motion of molecules. "Cold" is a region where the motion of molecules is less than those in the human body. So cold isn't that absence of heat, but heat in relation to that of the human body. Injustice is more than the absence of justice just as immorality is more than the absence of morality or evil the absence of good. All it takes is a moment's thought. Murder is immoral but it is more than the absence of morality. It is an ACTION, not an inaction. Injustice is also a set of actions, not just the absence of actions.


Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir?


This is just false. Evolution has been observed. The student's assertion depends on the professors false premise on what science is: "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena." Of course, the "Christian" here is meaning "directly" observed, whereas science (and theology) include INdirect observations.

The story is nice rhetoric, but anyone using a minimum of critical thinking can find the flaws and strawmen arguments.
 lucaspa
Joined: 5/28/2006
Msg: 269
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History
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/7/2007 6:31:05 PM

No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely clear that we can coherently speak about the “beginning” or “creation” of the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here we are talking about the origin of space-time itself. In this sense a first cause is an absurd question. The beginnig of the universe is an infinite regress (ie. time slows down as mass density is increased) and these initial conditions are simple; therefore God is simple... ... ok, lets just call it the beginnig of time, works for me.


Right, it is the beginning of time. Time has a beginning. Now, when you say "time slows down as mass density increased", this is ONLY from the perspective of those OUTSIDE. For those inside, time proceeds normally. Clocks in orbit go just a bit faster than clocks on earth. But we don't see any "slowing" of time, do we? Since we are INSIDE the singularity, time doesn't slow and there goes your infinite regress.

So First Cause is not an absurd question. It is just a question that, right now, does not have AN answer. Instead, there are several candidates for First Cause but we lack the data to choose between them.


Pascal suggested that religious believers are simply taking the wiser of two bets: if a believer is wrong about God, there is not much harm to him or to anyone else, and if he is right, he wins eternal happiness; if an atheist is wrong, however, he is destined for hell. Put this way, atheism seems the very picture of reckless stupidity.


Not only atheism, but God is the very picture of stupidity in Pascal's Wager. God isn't smart enough to tell the difference between someone that truly believes and someone that is just going thru the motions for selfishness? From a theological standpoint, the wager is just stupid.


I suspect no one ever acquires his religious beliefs in this way (Pascal certainly didn’t). But even if some people do, who could be so foolish as to think that such beliefs are likely to be true?


The valid point is that theists (and atheists) don't acquire beliefs this way. The beliefs are separate from why some people believe them. Therefore that a person believes because of Pascal's wager has nothing to do with the validity of the belief. Who would be so foolish as to evaluate the truth of a belief based on whether they got the belief by Pascal's wager? Deity exists or does not exist irregardless whether someone claims that the reason they believe is due to Pascal's wager.
 ezpkns34
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 270
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/7/2007 7:11:15 PM
i preface this response by saying that i did not bother to read the 10+ pages of replies to the original post which started this thread:


As a person open to views about the Universe and about God I was wondering....

As far as we know the big bang happened and we were all created from Matter. From my old school Matter won over ant-matter and then Billions of years later were here.

Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil. Where do they live? Where is Heaven? Is it beyond our universe? If so why is it so big if we cant go to Mars whats the point in making Billions of stars and equal galaxies.

Imagine you die....you have no body or brain anymore, you exsist as matter, as Einstien said were all made of it and so is the universe so you never die. But he didnt believe in god. So that makes no sense.

If you die then you will never know about time, never eat another apple, never use the PC again, never do the things we all do know in the physical. Its weird to think about it but its kind of scary.


1) Before you can ask for one's opinions or beliefs on god, you must verify which god you are speaking of. My opinion on Thor is quite different from my opinion on Islam's Allah or Hindu's Visnu or the Judeo-Christian "God."

2) Einstein did believe in god.

3) Can you tell me why "the devil" must exist simply because "god" exists?

4) I must ask, again, for your definition of existence before going along with grievous assumption that we "exist as matter" after death. If reincarnation, as is defined in many Hindu sects, is in fact true, then does that mean we exist as a multitude of different beings, do to our old skeleton evidently being enough for us to still count as "existing as matter"?
If our planet were to get too close to a black hole and the "matter" that we now are were to get "sucked into" this black hole, would that be enough for you to say that we no longer "exist as matter" or do we still exist in some sense? If we do still exist after such a scenario, how and where do we exist?
 Dazed_n_confused
Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 272
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History
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/9/2007 11:26:07 PM

4) I must ask, again, for your definition of existence before going along with grievous assumption that we "exist as matter" after death. If reincarnation, as is defined in many Hindu sects, is in fact true, then does that mean we exist as a multitude of different beings, do to our old skeleton evidently being enough for us to still count as "existing as matter"?
If our planet were to get too close to a black hole and the "matter" that we now are were to get "sucked into" this black hole, would that be enough for you to say that we no longer "exist as matter" or do we still exist in some sense? If we do still exist after such a scenario, how and where do we exist?


We exist as energy... energy cannot be created nor destroyed, if our matter was sucked into a black hole, our energy would still exist, it would be passed on into the black hole... i am not suggesting that a black hole lives or feeds off the energy it sucks in... but it does have to do somewhere and not just disapear

I don't believe in Jesus for one reason... and one reason alone, as crazy as this may seem to some people... we need to look at things in context of universals... to think we are the only planet with life is ignorant... i mean... look at it this way for 1 second.. lets say life did infact exist outside earth... would they have a Jesus?? Surely not, for Jesus is the creation of man, and if they did have a Jesus... he would not be "God's only son"

We need to stop looking at what seperates us as human beings... and see what unites us, who we are... we are all humans... we all live on this one planet... we should be united and saving our planet... not killing eachother.... regardless if you believe in Christianity, Budishm, Muslim, etc..

I don't know why to some people this is such a foreign concept...
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 274
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/10/2007 2:52:10 PM
The universe was created to keep me entertained. When I die, I will not be entertained any longer, so my universe will end.
 ass_clown
Joined: 8/31/2007
Msg: 276
Does God exist?
Posted: 9/11/2007 5:12:51 PM
post 27 :: was based on anthropomorphism, a common dive for philosophers. at least his overarching theme was benign.

"As little Charlie's we have all the powers and abilities of Big Charlie. Including (and especially) the ability to create. We create every situation, every nuance, of every second of everyday. (You may not know why you created it, but you did) The reason we create is to experience."

to the author of this post: please explain to the little girl in iraq whose foot was blown off by a bomb targeted against the "axis of evil" - please tell her she created that situation for her own experience. i'm sure she could use your asinine claim as a surrogate foot. and since we have all the powers of god, which created the universe - what was the recipe for creating the universe again? it was in my back pocket but i lost it.

i would tend to agree with post 13 with this exception

"A defined, limited god is no longer a god" is false as a contradiction by the author's own terms. implicit in the last phrase, "no longer a god" is a definition of the term "god". the author implies that a god should not be defined or limited, which in itself is a definition and limit. au contraire...

modern theoretical physicists (often agnostic) are in fact looking for the definition of god in a very universal sense - a god particle defined in 10, 11 or 26 dimensions which unites the fundamental forces of nature in one very well defined particle, with constraints. there is a good starting reference of it at wikipedia nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring

post 44 :: ahoytheredave makes salient, clear points. from his other posts, i'd say he's got a phd in mechanical or electrical engineering.

post 267 :: 2 thumbs up dougie.
 emotionalheat
Joined: 6/27/2007
Msg: 287
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Does God exist?
Posted: 9/18/2007 6:03:34 AM
God exists, I know it because I woke up this morning and the drought that took 90% of my crop has finally ended. With his mercy I can now feed my family on the other 10% that remains.

God exists, I know it because I saw a vision of Jesus in the clouds and there where a lot of other people who were there and just because some of them could not see Jesus, I did so I've been blessed and those others just need to read their Bible.

God does exist, I know this guy who had cancer, was going to die and he prayed and the cancer was taken away. As for that little girl who died last week, well either her family didn't believe enought or - Well we just never know what God has planned, we just have to be thankful.

God does exist, I know this because I passed my math test and I don't know how, because I couln't study as I was taking care of my terminally ill mother. But I prayed and I passed that test.

God does exist, this must be true because there are millions of stories just like the ones I just typed. You just have to open your eyes and read your Bible - just not the KJV version it sucks.
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