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 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 95
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Michel Moore's New Film SickoPage 2 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
This is Moore's greatest strength. In many ways he's the penultimate "American" in the best tradition of P.T. Barnum. A salesman, with the ability to promote himself in an exceptionally acceptable manner.

There are far better documentary producers, but none that have his talent for promotion. Even his enemies unknowingly assist in the matter.

Essentially, I see Moore as an American that's capable of looking at his country through the eyes of a foreigner - and that's an exceptionally rare talent.

His end desire, to trigger the discussion, gets done - and he makes a ton of money.

What could be more American than that ?
 IndKyPerson
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 97
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/22/2007 10:01:01 AM
Ohhhh,,, I thought with the title it was a self-biography too.

My mistake

 Thatguy67
Joined: 9/20/2006
Msg: 105
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/22/2007 6:17:26 PM
This thread would do Michael Moore proud. I'll check out the hype by checking out the movie.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 117
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/23/2007 6:42:30 PM
As a Canadian, I'm fairly happy with our system. Does it have problems ?

Yes.

Those problems are not related to the concept, just to the people who are recently running it. Any problems we do have don't seem to be as great as the ones with the US medical system.

If your system worked as well as many claim, there would be results. Life expectency would be higher, child mortality less, etc. Strangely, these improvements are not there - even with all the glorious success and power of the wonderful magical US medical system.

If poor people do not get proper medical treatment, they wind up costing taxpayers more money. Far too little , in both systems, is devoted to preventative solutions. If a poor person gets a communicable disease, and cannot afford treatment, that disease may (and probably will) be spread to a great many others.

Many people in the USA are locked into jobs, simply because of medical insurance problems if they change. One has to wonder why most western democratic societies choose public health care, and the USA cannot.

The current danger in Canada, that of a looming two tier system, is based simply on greed. Doctors become doctor (it seems) to simply get rich - and not to treat the sick. We in Canada have lovely examples of this of Canadians who take full advantage of greatly reduced medical training - and then leave to make more money when they get the degree that their fellow Canadians have helped pay for.

A two tier system, which will bleed off some of the best medical care, will also mean that the aristocracy will not be affected by any negatives in the public sector one. This means we begin a gradual slide toward disaster, as those with the most control over politicians are freed from the "problems" by being in a private medical system.

When I was a young man, the system worked quite well here. Doctors were quite happy to make a good salary , and they were oriented towards helping others.

The creed of doctors, The Hippocratic Oath, states the following :


swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath.

To consider dear to me as my parents him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and if necessary to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.

Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.


I regularly talk to doctors in my job. Quite amazingly, quite a few are called Dr. even by their wives. Some even refer to themselves as doctor, and my calls are about security - and not medical treatment.

I went to my bank machine once ( which is right beside a small medical treatment center) , and as I was about to open the door to get to my teller - a man pushed past me.

" I'm Dr. XXXXX, and I need access to the clinic immediately

I said "I'm central alarm operator XXXX, and this door leads to the bank teller - and not the clinic..."

A doctor in Canada makes a pretty good salary, and he has a job that gives him security for life. That's exceptionally rare for anyone today. If they are just in it for the money, simply to get rich, then they lose all that respect from me.

If , as in Canada, they are needed to work in rural areas - they scream over the loss of rights. Instead of saying that all new doctors must work a year or two in such regions, for the good of the society, they see themselves as above that same society to which they are sworn to assist.

People , for the most part, cannot choose to avoid illness. Some lifestyle choices raise the odds of certain things occurring, but many times it's a matter of genetic - or some horrific bad luck.

I don't think people should be bankrupted when this occurs, and the Canadian system works pretty well in that regard. With a bit of logical oversight, great improvments could be made.

Simply putting one qualified doctor in charge of deciding who is allowed into an emergency room would make one positive start. We have local clinics, called CLSC's in Quebec, and that'a where a lot of the people that wind up in emergency rooms should be going.

I've seen people with minor cuts, colds, and other such "medical emergencies" inline for emergency room service. I've seen senior citizens there that are simply seeking attention. I spoke with one staffer one time that told me about one woman (with no family) who regularly comes once a week into emergency.

All those people should be stopped at the door, and emergency rooms used simply for real emergencies only.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 119
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/24/2007 6:08:57 AM

I do disagree with you on all Doctors not wanting to heal people. Maybe that is what you are running into with a Socialistic health care system. We have Doctors here in the USA that don’t really care for healing their patients and they are easy to spot.


I in no way meant to apply all doctors were like that. I've met many of both types. It has nothing to do with a "socialist" medical system , either. I think it's more a reflection of how the role doctors have in our society has changed. Now, for some, it's simply a way to make a lot of money.

You can see that very clearly with the "pill pusher" variety. Thanks to drug companies providing rewards for product sales ( something that should be banned , in my view) they happily write up hundreds/thousands of prescriptions.

They make a good salary already, but it's still not enough for them. People get overmedicated, because some doctors fall prey to a very addictive cycle. Instead of spending time with patients, and truly working with them, they go with the easier route.

Write a prescription, and say "Next !" .....

You can see that with all those amazing prescription drug ads. Feeling blue ? Try this pill...

Want to satisfy your wife ? We have a little magic right here to sell you.

Meanwhile, the "problem" isn't resolved. It's covered with a pill, and everyone involved in the process makes a killing. Old people are quite often over medicated. Some doctors have , in essence, become drug pushers in the truest sense of the word.

In our system, we buy these incredibly expensive machines - like MRI's , etc. They get run something like eight hours a day, which makes no sense. One hospital in Montreal was "caught" renting out their machines to a private contractor.

Those machines were paid for with taxpayers money, and there are people in need of their service. It's outrageous that they are being leased out to people (and doctors) to make money on the side. Once everyone is treated, I might agree.

Doctors don't want to work nights and weekends ? Again, I expect older more experienced ones to not do that, but if you are just out of medical school - tough luck. Remember that oath you took ? People are sick, and it's your calling to heal them.

I too remember house calls. They are still done in places like the Netherlands. Here, magically, that's vanished for the most part. We were able to do it, and some people still are able to have access to such services in other countries.

Another problem is the medical communities strangle hold over control of doctor's duties. There are many things that doctors could be transferring to other people, and yet they refuse to even consider it. One example in Quebec is the total illegality of EMT's here to give life saving procedures like certain medicines.

That's a doctor's job, even though it's done on the USA every day. I know one fully qualified EMT here that told me about a wonderful little example of this effect in action.

He was called to a really bad motorcyle accident, and called in that the patient was DOA upon arrival. Suddenly his radio exploded. The on duty supervisor, a doctor, radioed that he wanted him to stay in place , and that they were about to have a serious discussion right then and there. He was told, in no uncertain terms, that a mere EMT had NO RIGHT to declare a patient dead.

His car screeched up to a stop beside the ambulance, and he leaped out in a rage.

" I want to see this patient you just declared dead...."

My friend pointed down the road, to a van .

"You'll find his helmet and head stuck in the van's rooftop rack, and the rest of his body down the road a bit. "
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 123
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/24/2007 4:15:01 PM
I would prefer the Govt step in and form a Govt run insurance company that people can afford with one rate for single people and one for families.

But thinking we can model our healthcare system on what Canada has, is absurd.


In essence, this is exactly what the Canadian model is. The government collects money through taxes, and that's used to pay for medical services.

Again, I think the Dutch have done some interesting things in this regard.


Most people in the Netherlands are compulsorily insured for medical expenses by the national health service (Verplicht Ziekenfonds verzekerd). Additional insurance (aanvullende verzekering), also offered by the national health service, may be considered to cover ante and postnatal services as well as certain health assistance expenses abroad. Exceptions to the national health insurance are civil servants, self-employed and people who earn more than a certain limit. These people are obliged to take a private insurance (Privé-verzekering). A national insurance called "Algemene Wet Bijzondere Ziektekosten" (AWBZ) covers certain medical expenses - like prescriptions - for everybody who lives in the Netherlands. In the coming years, this national insurance will be extended to a basic insurance for everyone.

http://www.expatax.nl/worksocialsystem.htm


As in our system here, you can (and should) have an additional insurance plan that will allow you to have other options (like semi-private rooms). In Quebec, we also have a drug plan that one pays (typically through work).

As for Canada's smaller population being a factor, it's overshadowed by a much greater amount of money (even per capita) available in the USA.

Tell me how the USA can easily decide to pay something like one trillion dollars plus for a war in a far off country - and suddenly start screaming about how "expensive" public healthcare is ? That money was offered up without any problem, and no one (even now) is talking about how spending all that money will place the USA at a disadvantage.

I'll bet you (in a public healthcare debate) that type of argument against it comes in the first thirty seconds. The reason's pretty simple. Right now, your healthcare system is a cash cow for a lot of people. Those people make a lot of money, tons of it, and they certainly don't want to kill the golden goose.

How much did doctors,specialists, and pharmaceutical companies make fifty years ago ?

How much do they make now ?

The median salary of a doctor in Canada is roughly $ 99,000.

In England ? Perhaps 40-50,000 Euros.

Australia ? Roughly 62 ,000 Aus $

The USA ? 120,000 dollars.

Source:
http://www.payscale.com/research/ca/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary

Again, as a doctor, you have a job for life.

Name me one other profession today that has this benefit.

You are well respected, and well paid (as compared to the vast majority in society). We are told every day that we must work harder, and compete in this global economy.

The product they sell is life, and quality of life, itself. No one should be denied access to that simply due to money. Have we all reached a point where we are heartless enough to refuse people treatment, or give them almost zero access to it ?

Are we at the point where a small group of people ( like medical associations) can hold us all hostage ? In Quebec, we have immigrants with quite valid medical degrees that are (esentially) not allowed to practice medicine. The existing doctor's association throws up every roadblock it can to make it almost impossible for them to practice. That's guised as a "quality control" issue, but has far more to do with doctor's (quite amazingly) being allowed to control the marketplace.

While people are in need of doctors, especially in rural areas, these qualified medical people are driving taxis and delivering pizza. That's simple because of the stranglehold the medical association has on it's profession.

If the USA started to make an effort to control it's medical costs, then the lower salaries of doctors would stop the worldwide bleeding of doctors from other countries. There would be nowwhere else to go.
 gizmosellschickens
Joined: 5/20/2007
Msg: 124
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/24/2007 4:47:36 PM
The healthcare system in America is good at treating your ills, but the probelm is. Who paying for it. Two-tier healthcare system if people want to pay higher taxes for healthcare let them opt for it thru FICA taxes. Medicare state for a goverment program would be 6% higher tax rate on medicare for people want goverment coverage, and people that want private insurance would pay just 1.3% tax. Still, private insurnace make money weeding out cronically ill people because they take up lots of healthcare dollars, and private insurance company gotta make profits for investors therefore, cronically ill people are not worth the hit on revuenve margins. The Untied States has no health isurance system, and Canadain system you wait months for certain treatments because it underfuneded system. If you massive medical problems better off in Canada if you lower income brackets. Still, Moore is leftist to begin with, and does not realize healthcare is rationed at private level, and goverment level. Healthcare costs need to be reemed undercontrol, or it does not matter which system of healthcare you have. Adminstrative costs of private systems is higher, but qaulity of care is usuaully better than a lot goverment systems, but the disadvanage of the current healthcare system in America it create job lock for workers that be more productive in other jobs, but only keep the job for health insurance. I think private insurance can still play a role, but its useless to deny people willing to pay higher taxes goverment funded system for all. Small Business owners cant afford ethier system too well, but reforming the system is complex and not simple solutions.
 cupidstrikes
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 130
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/25/2007 9:20:12 AM

He very rarely has anything remotely positive to say


Welcome to the REAL world. The things surrounding us are not always positive, nor should they be viewed that way.

Although "reactionary film is not necessisarily thought provoking" you have to admit most of the time it is. Especially when it comes to issues of importance/great magnitude (such as the things Moore disscusses in his fims).
 canyunflyer
Joined: 2/6/2006
Msg: 142
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 5/26/2007 12:06:05 AM
Its blatently obvious to me. this was presented as a thread about micheal moore and his new movie...sicko. It was not about a debate, or argument of the state of healthcare. I understand that Moores new film is precisely about this. However, The way this thread was presented specifically indicated a discussion on Moore and his new film. (Can we say...critique?) The fact that most seemed to have jumped on the general 'healthcare' bandwagon is testimony that this is a hot topic, but it still does not justify all the indignation about talking about moore...(which is precisely what this thread was presented as?) Hmmmm.

As to the question: I am in the camp that thinks Moore is an ugly fat pig who basically seemed to have fallen into a bucket of crap and came up with gold hanging on him. I don't like him. I have no respect for him. And, not too long ago, he would have been tried and convicted for sedition...maybe even treason. I don't care what his latest film is about. I won't contribute to any of his work by even looking at it. He's just an opportunistic phoney, who has an oversized set of self righteous balls.
 harviej
Joined: 12/18/2006
Msg: 144
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/1/2007 2:41:28 PM
Well I've done the math. So far there are more posts on this thread than people who have seen the movie.
I'll wait for the DVD.
If we want to talk about health care those are different threads I'm guessing.
 harviej
Joined: 12/18/2006
Msg: 146
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/1/2007 3:12:38 PM
Well I hope I was right about more people posting that watching the movie.
That way it comes out on DVD sooner.
Sorry I missed two pages-bet they were good (I love a good rant, seeing peoples veins pop in a literaly literal sense)
I find it interesting that a lot of the discussion is not so much factually driven as driven by dogma and political perspective. It used to be that the media could keep you informed by giving you facts, but there is so much corporate control merely feeding us "infotainment" and there are so many public relations firms really writing what the media delivers, that there is not much chance of getting to the dry facts without one side or the other getting there grubby hands on it first, and slanting it.
This is what makes people like Michael Moore (And I loved his show on TV and Roger and Me was what it claimed to be) is actually a documentary film maker. Documentary films should always have some balance, but that doesn't sell. Sensation sells. So keep out the balance. We are a sad bunch these days.
 gizmosellschickens
Joined: 5/20/2007
Msg: 147
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/3/2007 10:36:42 PM
The Untied States healthcare system is not perfect, but in other countries you want a operation asap you have to go on a waiting list, and in some other countries you have to pay more to jump the line. Untied States will have a 2 tier healthcare system because the private system is not something some payers will give up, and nationalized system like Canada would cause massive job losses in the healthcare industry, and local poltiicans would not get relected. Healthcare debate should be focus on costs, and access to healthcare, and the market can play a role in healthcare. Still, I dont object people wanting goverment coverage for medical care, but they would have to pay a higher FICA rate for it, and would be locked in each tax year, and can buy supplment private insurance if they choose for items not covered by a goverment system. The complexitiy of healthcare issuse is that market system for healthcare is good 60% of the time, and it fails 40% of the time, and costs of new healthcare treatements too eat up healthcare dollars, and its balancing providing the best care possible, but also being consientous of the costs involved, and the limits of care at times.
 cupidstrikes
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 148
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/4/2007 10:28:10 AM

True, Moore is more about shock value and pushing the outrage button. Sadly in the end his work does not actually contribute to much of anything. It's a shame.


"Does not contribute to much of anything"?
*scratches head*

Are you serious?
How does educating others "not contribute to much of anything"?

One of the best things a person can do for another is to teach them. Knowledge is power and the one thing no man can take from you.

With the ignorance that surrounds us sometimes you need "shock value" or to "push the outrage button" for people to actually wake up, open their eyes and take some kind of a stand.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 149
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/5/2007 7:48:48 AM
I agree.

At around the same time Farenheit 9/11 came out, another 9/11 documentary did too. It was a serious look at what happened, and it promptly sank off the viewing screens. In today's "American Idol" driven culture, you have to get their attention - and Moore excels at that.

He is the PT Barnum of his generation, for showmanship.

Were he to show up looking like a university professor in a tweed jacket, with patches, he'd still be struggling to sell the idea of Roger and Me.

Ironically, he's one of the few left winger's that has adapted the right's selling of messages by going over the top. Very few liberals have been able to out Rush Rush .

Moore certainly has, and were he a Republican , they'd be cradling him in their arms like the baby Jesus himself.

They can write him off all they want, and call him every name in the book.

All the way to the bank.....
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 156
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/18/2007 12:14:56 PM
You said it on long island it sucks too,you wait hours in the waiting room,as you said say you have chest pains.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 157
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/18/2007 11:01:54 PM
Moore was interviewed here on the local news tonight. He is from my state. He said ask the average Canadian if they would trade their healthcare insurance for Blue Cross (the best in the states) and they would say "no way".

Don't write Moore off because he has twisted things in the past. He has sensationilized things before, and I think he is kind of slimey, but he still treads where nobdy else is willing to go.
 cupidstrikes
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 158
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/19/2007 12:33:18 AM
As a Canadian citizen (born and raised) I can go in to see a doctor at any office, walk-in clinic OR hospital and be seen to.
I don't have to pay for any kind of healthcare plan (unlike Americans).
I could be a bum living on the streets and still rely on Canada's healthcare to cover me should I end up in an accident or sick.
The only thing I'd have to have a healthcare plan for is to help subsidize the costs of things like perscriptions, dental, glasses, etc.

My mom just had some tests done that would have cost over $30,000 had she have to pay for it and it's nothing even that serious!
She doesn't have any severe health problems nor is she hospitalized.
(I believe they were MRI's or something to that effect).

I can't imagine being an american citizen and not having any kind of health plan.
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