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 aroarke
Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 159
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Michel Moore's New Film SickoPage 3 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
On the flip side, if we follow the Canadian model of socialized, government-regulated medicine, you might well die before you see your doctor. Ask a Canadian how they like it.

I love it. I have never waited for a doctor and everyone I know that has had to go to a doctor or an emergency room has never had to wait or have a problem. the stories you must have heard are coming from some right-wing propaganda nuts.

One friend went in for cancer (throat) removed successfully and he had to pay - nothing

One friend went in to have a finger removed from complications to to diabetes and he had to pay - nothing

Another friend went in for a colectomy with ileostomy and they had to pay - nothing

I scheduled an elective surgery and had to wait two weeks and paid - nothing

So for the Canadians I know they like the system so following our lead would not hurt but help.

As for Mr. Moore I wouldn't be to worried about his agenda, as he is only trying to help all Americans, I'd be more worried about your dictator in chief's agenda.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 165
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/19/2007 6:43:17 PM
I think the rumors that Canadians are disatisfied with their health care system was created by the U.S. Government so that citizens here would not demand the same system.

Well, we have had a number of Canadians speak out and tell us that they love their health care system. If one of us got sick and had those high health care bills and couldn't pay, we would lose everything to get on Medicaid and then they would throw us in a nursing home. We have to start making noise about this.
 Calm2waters
Joined: 11/18/2006
Msg: 166
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/22/2007 9:45:18 PM
...the consumer who readily hands off personal responsibility for their health to the health care industry.

The average person usually operates within the systems he or she finds themselves in. Really its only a courageous or lucky few that can overcome their environment and upbringing to see through the facade, and forge their own path. Its the total deference of leadership to profit (and I like profit as well as the next person) that places America in the quagmire it finds itself in.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 168
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/22/2007 10:02:37 PM
Some personal experiences with Canadian healthcare.

( Circa 1988 or so )

I had developed severe nausea , and lost possibly 20 pounds over the course of a few days. I could not even keep a glass of water down, and it was the middle of a July heat wave.

I went to the emergency ward , and was seen within a very short period of time. I was immediately IV's to rehydrate. The doctors ran a few tests, and couldn't narrow it down. I was treated as an outpatient (after rehydration) , and was back a day later.

The confusing thing for the doctors, until they ran tests, was that I had no pain whatsoever. After undergoing an endoscopic exam, it took roughly five minutes to see I had a stomach ulcer.

I got some Tagamite prescribed, and was on my feet having breakfast thirty minutes later.

Total cost to me ?

( Aside from taxes paid to the plan, of course)

Maybe twenty dollars for the pills. ( Now we have a mandatory prescription insurance plan, so I'd pay almost nothing after a fifty dollar deductible).



Circa 2003

My ex discovered a lump in one of her breasts. We went to a local clinic , and waited for a few hours to be seen. ( Had we gone to a larger place, this would have probably been less).

That doctor told her to go to the emergency ward , immediately . ( He , for cultural reasons, had not even checked her properly. )

At the emergency ward, because it was not life threatening, we had to wait perhaps twelve hours. That's just a function of triage, and caseloads.

Once seen by a doctor in emergency, she was advised it was (98 percent chance) just a fat buildup , since it wasn't anchored anywhere.

She was told to return in the morning for a biopsy.

I think she had the results back in the same day, or maybe the next.

Confirmed as fat buildup, she came back to the hospital a couple of days later to get them drained.

Total cost ?

Zero.


I've never heard of anyone here waiting for a critical operation , in my circle of friends and family. I know a few people that did have to wait for things like joint replacement, which seems to be the main problem.

I've got zero complaints about our healthcare system, although it still could be improved with a little more planning and care.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 171
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/22/2007 10:23:38 PM
Actually, I'm quite surprised any Canadians are still alive with all those dangerous, unregulated drugs we are exposed to up here.


The issue of U.S. consumers purchasing drugs from foreign sources is a significant concern for FDA. A growing number of Americans are obtaining their prescription medications from foreign locations. They often seek out Canadian suppliers, or sources that purport to be Canadian. As we have said in the past, FDA cannot ensure the safety of drugs purchased from foreign sources.

SAFETY CONCERNS

For public health reasons, FDA remains concerned about the importation of prescription drugs into the U.S. In our experience, many drugs obtained from foreign sources that either purport to be or appear to be the same as U.S.-approved prescription drugs are, in fact, of unknown quality. FDA cannot assure the American public that drugs imported from foreign countries are the same as products approved by FDA.

FDA has long taken the position that consumers are exposed to a number of risks when they purchase drugs from foreign sources or from sources that are not operated by pharmacies licensed under state pharmacy law. These outlets may dispense expired, subpotent, contaminated or counterfeit product, the wrong or a contraindicated product, an incorrect dose, or medication unaccompanied by adequate directions for use. The labeling of the drug may not be in English and therefore important information regarding dosage and side effects may not be available to the consumer. The drugs may not have been packaged and stored under appropriate conditions to avoid degradation. There is no assurance that these products were manufactured under current good manufacturing practice (cGMP) standards. When consumers take such unsafe or inappropriate medications, they face risks of dangerous drug interactions and other serious health consequences.

Over the last twelve to eighteen months, FDA identified a proliferation of websites that sell drugs purportedly from Canada directly to U.S. consumers. A number of these websites claim it is legal for Canadian pharmacies to sell drugs to U.S. consumers. This is false. Some websites are merely ordering services, taking orders from consumers that are then filled by other pharmacies. In some cases, American consumers cannot be certain that the drugs they receive are actually dispensed by the person from whom they are ordered.

A number of Canadian drug websites and ordering services indicate that the Canadian drugs are dispensed pursuant to existing prescriptions that are rewritten by a Canadian doctor in order to comply with Canadian law. However, dispensing medication based on a prescription written by a physician who has not seen the patient or conducted a physical exam is contrary to medical practice standards. In addition, the Canadian Medical Association has stated that under the Canadian Code of Ethics, physicians have a responsibility to do a patient history, conduct a physical exam and discuss the risks and benefits of the medication with the patient. In many cases, these activities simply do not occur.

Consumers who buy prescription drugs from foreign countries are at risk of suffering adverse events, some of which can be life threatening. These risks include potential side effects from inappropriately prescribed medications, dangerous drug interactions or side effects due to drug contamination. Patients are also at risk because there is no certainty about what they are getting when they purchase some of these drugs. Although some patients may receive genuine product, others may unknowingly buy counterfeit copies that contain inert ingredients, legitimate drugs that are outdated and have been diverted to illegitimate resellers, or dangerous sub-potent or super-potent products that were improperly manufactured. Moreover, consumers who are desperately seeking a cure for a serious medical problem may be more willing to accept a product of unknown origin.

In the case of foreign-based sources, if a consumer has an adverse drug reaction or any other problem, they have little or no recourse either because the physical location or operator of the pharmacy often is not known or the seller is beyond the consumer’s reach. In addition, as a condition of doing business, many of these foreign operators require the U.S. consumer to sign a document releasing the operator from all potential liability. FDA has little or no ability to take effective action against these foreign operators to assist U.S. consumers.

In addition to these safety concerns, it is also important to point out that it is illegal, under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic (FD&C) Act, to import unapproved, misbranded, and adulterated drugs into the U.S. This includes foreign versions of U.S.-approved medications. It is also illegal for anyone other than the drug’s manufacturer to re-import a prescription drug that was originally manufactured in the U.S

STATEMENTS OF
WILLIAM K. HUBBARD
ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER FOR POLICY AND PLANNING
“CANADIAN PRESCRIPTION DRUG RE-IMPORTATION: IS THERE A SAFETY ISSUE?”
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND WELLNESS
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
June 12, 2003

http://www.fda.gov/ola/2003/canadian0612.html


BOO !

Did I scare you ?

Little known fact ?

Over 20 POF's in Canada die EVERY SINGLE DAY, due to dangerous Canadian drugs being prescribed by misinformed doctors who can't buy the incredibly more expensive (yet strangely identical) "safer" American ones. ... ....
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 174
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/22/2007 11:11:31 PM
What cannot be overstated is the draining effect of American health care on Canada. Because your system is essentially controlled by doctors, they make GREAT salaries compared to any other country's doctors.

That means mercenary doctors who are just in it for the cash go South, AFTER getting an education subsidized by Canadian taxpayers .

Were American health care costs to be controlled far better, that bleeding would stop. There would not be anywhere else to go.

Take a look at what doctors made in North America fifty years ago (as compared to the general population), and look at it today. I think you'll find it's very much like the CEO's and their increases in salary.

When I was a kid, some of my friends fathers were doctors. They were certainly rich, but they were not RIIIIICH.

They were not living in mansions, and driving Ferraris.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 175
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 12:29:18 AM
Dear Mr. Shep, I don't give a rip if Michael Moore is a socialist or even a communist. The American Health Care system is not working. In other words, the Capitalist system is not working. You get health care if you are very rich or very poor or pretend to be, or if you are lucky enough to have a job that provides it. There have been some great advances in medicine in recent years which should continue happening. I can see a day where only the rich will be able to afford the treatment and cures that scientests are developing. I am not a Moore fan, but at least he has the balls to speak out against the system, which is more that Doctors who take the Hippocratic Oath are doing.
 Rythmn
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 176
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 3:19:09 PM
As a prior health policy person, and to put some water on the fire between the canadian-usa debate on health care, there are clear disadvantgaes to both systems. In a nutshell, due to waits and lack of availability of some services, many from england and canada are increasingly resorting to purchase additional private plans, if they can afford it. My old company, a young and small one at that time, but with advanced expertise, was called into Canada to peel away at it's benefits because of the high cost in the past and inablity to continue to absorb these costs. I remember being quite aghast as at that time "electrolysis" was considered a medical versus cosmetic benefit!
Nobody wanted to cut benefits, but if not, the system was going to topple.

The reasons for the complexity in both the USA and Canada are due to newer and better technology, increase in now treatable diseases such as AIDS which was funded and LYMES (which is not very funded, because they don't want another AIDS budget crisis) ! In addition, the elderly and younger poplulations are increasing, as are poverty levels in the latter category. Areas within each national entity also vary as to lack of resources and overbuilt/overbedded/inefficient/antiquated infrastructure. However, stop the infrastructre and you affect many jobs and therefore the economy!

Likewise the Medicaid situation which flows through state and county funding mechanisms varies GREATLY amongst USA geographic areas:

So, there is a large working poor and/or single non-working poor sub-population which may or may not get any health care benefits/access and often will not qualify for Medi-Cal unless hospitalized or in an emergency condition. The definition of ER means you must be at risk to die within 24-48 hours, although some emergency rooms who have been sued for miscalculations might be more apt to see you temporarily than not. If you are a parent with a small child, you are more likely to get benefits--so all the more reasons to have babies and continue the poverty cycle.

Some counties with more thriving economies have additional monies to support free care. But most do not. The HMO's might be okay for typical illnesses and prevention strategies, but if you have one of the more "exotic" or expensive chronic illnesses, forget it! And then of course, do you have pharmaceutical coverage? There is an Rx association that will fund necessary "poverty" line people for their meds, but again, that takes you out of the working poor --scraping away to even own a small house and puts you into the poverty grid, in order to qualify.

Furthermore, if you are truly disabled it often takes a year or two to get qualified for social security (let alone state aid), so you could drop dead or go homeless in between unless you have family or friends who will put you up. Or if you have a good private disability policy which over the past 15 years have gone way down in benefits and way up in restrictions.

I know of one young homeless girl who was actually entitled to Medi-Cal but her papers were all screwed up and she was too screwed up, from repeated sexual abuse history as a child, to fix her own situation. The homeless medical community got her to Planned Parenthood who got her temporary Medi-Cal to get an abortion. The post abortion infection and pappilo virus however, did not receive funding, nor did she get treated--until private parties interfered.

What if you have no private parties advocating on your behalf? She was lucky and is getting herself together. She is also very brilliant and is thinking about becoming an attorney to put a dent in what she has personally experienced. There are many people in that boat, with the potential but not the backing. To be quite frank, if I did not have my own private coverage for my disablity (undetected advanced stage chronic lymes), i probably would not even be alive today as I could not have afforded the unreimbursed medications.

How many of you even think to pay large amounts for private disablity? The younger you are, typically the more invinceable. If I had not been running my own corporation, i might not have even gotten that disability! Because, even if you have yourself coverd while working and they (employers) supposedly pay for you, once you get sick, they find a way to get rid of you, then you have no disabilty insurance because you didn't pay for it and cannot keep it going, so then you have to wait for two years for social security which has stiffer requirements than most private disablity companies who insure you for your "profession" .

Unless you have savings or family you will conceivably be out on the streets! With respect to my own disabilty, as with the AIDS community, many have underground distributions for medications and some will purchase antibiotics from livestock catalogues. The doctors here who deal with chronic lymes and poor reimbursement, know "which" canadian pharmacies are reputable and will try to get their patients the free meds first, but many still respond to internet companies who are not even known or tested. I know several who have gotten bad meds and although many will disagree, i know that i react adversely to certain tested generics due to the choice of binders, etc. so it's not just the medication, but the way it is mixed, packaged and handled--whether it is here or elsewhere. then of course, we get the meds that are taken off the market a year later for killing other people.

Of course you have a limited right to continue and pay for your own health care premiums under COBRA, but sick and w/o a job, typically you may not afford them. Furthermore by not "continuing" your coverage, you will then be labeled with a pre-existing condition and not be able to get covered in the future, even if you get well later on and get another job!

As to HMO's, the original concept was an emphasis on prevention which is costly,but later on down the road you win and the costs decrease. However, no one company wants to invest and have you get better and go work elsewhere, so the competitor can profit! That is the major flaw. So they cut corners in other ways now, one of which is the quality of their lab testing!!! That in turn trickles down to those labs becoming successful due to business "volume" and offering the same low costs for non HMO providers and insurors, who must compete with the HMO's ! I assure you, the more exotic your disease, the less likely an HMO stat lab will find it!

There but for the grace of G-d, go I? Isn't that a bible quote? Not very religious myself, but you either gain a heart or lose it, when you live in this world (not figuratively of course, as that too would rely upon the "health care delivery system"!)

So, if you are not familiar with what i am saying, maybe venture forth if you are interested from your own backyard...if not, that's your choice, but the facts are out there and readily available in a variety of stats. Hopefully you won't become one of the victims.

I look forward to seeing this movie. Much of the last one was right on target. I remember them trying to recruit my "minority" teens, but they did NOT recruit in my friend's rich neighborhood! At least, now parents can put a stop to this here, but actually most poorer people are not even aware of it and despite it all, really think their kids will survive the war and then get college benefits.

However, on the other hand, i know how hard health care policy is to formulate. Particularly in diverse and internationally occupied areas with a wide array of diseases, genetics, languages, practices and economic stability. Way back Wisconsin did very well with it's model. But it would not have worked in NYC. As one of the experimental states in NJ which has many microcommunites to study within, I watched that beautiful experimental system topple policically. The sad thing was that the ones who toppled it got screwed in the end, along with the rest of everyone else! By the same token, it's a small state and I'm not sure they could have gotten it together here in CA which is geographically equivalent to two or three states.

It's a very complex matter, the more and more you delve. Partly it rests upon "health" being related to so much more that is going wrong in this society and it becomes a bandaid approach for many more severe ills that go undiagnosed or unattended.
 rsx11s
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 177
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 5:04:56 PM
The New York times loved it:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/2007/06/22/movies/22sick.html?em&ex=1182744000&en=8522b3e2541be780&ei=5070
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 179
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 6:02:47 PM
SISL, have you followed this conversation? A government health plan seems to be working very well in Canada.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 180
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 6:06:59 PM
Why is the US one of the few Western democracies that doesn't have a version of socialized medicine ?

Why do these other countries have better health , as shown by stats, with less cost.

Country Canada/USA

Life expectancy 80.5/77.5

Infant mortality rate 5.0/6.0

Physicians per 1000 people 2.14/2.56

Nurses per 1000 people 9.95/9.37

Per capita expenditure on health (USD) 2,669/5,711

Healthcare costs as a percent of GDP 9.5/15.2

% of government revenue spent on health 16.7/18.5

% of health costs paid by government 69.9/ 44.6

Source all : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

The frozen snow-covered inhabitants of the People's Socialist Republic of Canadastan seem to be AHEAD in every measurable way of looking at health care.

Must be the temperature.... .
 rsx11s
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 181
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 6:37:01 PM

Health Care is a SERVICE, like a haircut or an oil-change. It must be paid for at market rates.


Governments supply essential services and leave non-essential ones to the free market.

It all depends on where your idea of "essential" lies.

Many would argue, and I think rghtly so, that you simply cannot trivially compare health care to a haircut or an oil change (that you can obviously do yourself).
 Magnificentlady
Joined: 8/31/2006
Msg: 182
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/23/2007 6:47:23 PM
I love Michael Moore's movies--maybe they're slanted, but he's so entertaining, and what if Farnheit 9/11 never came out? Possibly, no one wold know how little our politicians are interested in anything but profiteering one way or the other--possibly people would not know about gun control--I can't wait to see "Sicko," and admire Mr. Moore's courage and determination in getting things out in the open and communicating about the heart of the matter--or in the case of Iraq, there is no heart in the matter--it's all about money and little people who want more of it, and I would give anything if my son were gay or conscienscious, rather than being a puppet to our current war machine, which I doubt has little to do with terrorism.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 183
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/24/2007 10:05:20 PM
The world premiere of "Sicko" was held last in a small town in Northern Michigan. Moore is from Michigan. I just read a review by a columnist, not a film critic, who saw it. He said that he went not expecting to like it as he had qualms with Moores other films. This one he called a "Masterpiece". The film is not about people who do not have health insurance, it is about people who have lousy health insurance. In one scene, a woman who was some kind of an insurance agent for an HMO admits that many people probably died by her hand as she had denied them from getting treatment. The columnist, Jack Lessenberry, who writes a column for an alternative Detroit weekly paper ended by saying that our (American) health coverage and our society itself has failed because of the apathy on the part of U.S. citizens.
 JustKelly70
Joined: 2/9/2007
Msg: 186
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/24/2007 11:26:05 PM
Latetm, I agree when surgery is neccesary, they get you in right away, Its the people have to wait for a cat scan that bothers me, especially when cancer could be involved and waiting 3 months for the scan can very well be the death of you, I think I posted earlier here a friend was to wait that long but he went to buffalo and paid to find out, In his case it was too late Infact he died before his schedualed cat scan here in ontario.
Our health care system is ok, It's by no means the best. It needs work , Our tax dollars pay for it but still the money is not allocated where its needed, Staffing issues are the biggest problem, Our health care workers are over worked.
 JustKelly70
Joined: 2/9/2007
Msg: 188
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/24/2007 11:45:58 PM
$300 US, Thats what my friend paid. I think WE put enough money into it, it's just not getting there and when it does its not spent properly, I've worked for our government, You try and save them money but somne policy comes up and you end up spending more, I Did some work last week at a provincial park, They had wanted to lease a jeep liberty, it was all they needed to move staff around for meeting's. But No it was considered a luxury vehicle, so now they pay $200 more per month for a 4x4 that uses twice as much gas. Management just does not see the logic.
 rsx11s
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 189
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/24/2007 11:47:17 PM
Nobody here has seen the film. While I like MM I understand lots of people have a problem with him. He's acutely aware of this and this film is "different". You won't see the MM you love to hate. That's what two newspapers who have reported on it said so far.

In MM's own words "I told the editors a little bit of me goes a long way"; you won't see hum chasing poeple, being confrontational or even as much of him. Poeple who expected not to like it are raving about it so far.

So maybe it's worth keeping an open mind and having a look before you judge it.

But if you're one of those "I don't like asparagus although I've never tried it" people - well, carry on then.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 192
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/25/2007 9:35:26 PM
In that same Lessenberry column, he stated that people always want to point out that the Canadian system is not perfect, to which he added, "yeah, and I have a friend with a Lexus who has trouble shutting the glovebox".

I laugh at the idea that Miramax would pay MM to attack the American Health Care system. A few years back Denzel Washington gave the performance of his life in a film called "John Q". In the film Washingtons characters son needs a heart transplant and his insurance will not cover it, so he takes a hospital hostage and forces them to do the surgery. For some reason this film got very little press. Washington did win the Oscar that year for a performance that was nowhere near as good in another film.

Michael Moore will be appearing on Leno tomorrow night, Tuesday June 26.
 rsx11s
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 193
Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/25/2007 9:51:09 PM
A couple of things to consider: unless you've experienced both American and Canadian systems both hand for a number of years do you really think you're anything more than an armchair critic?

Also, complaints about the Canadian system tend to be a self-selected group. The overwhelming majority of people who are happy with the system don't make news.

Your kid has a sore throat. You go to the doctor and don't have to pay anything. Maybe you need a prescription maybe you don't. For most people this is the scanrio. Most people don't need a heart transplant.

Having said that if you're rich the American system is better. I have a friend that works for a company that makes leadin edge xray and mri equipment and he points out there's more of his machines in LA than all of Canada. They are very very expensive.

What would be interesting is to see some statistics on the % of the population that is happy with their countries healtcare system.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 195
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/26/2007 9:58:38 PM
Random, as 24 of the top 25 industrialized nations have universal healthcare, the U.S. being the holdout, and ranking 37th on best healthcare systems just about Slovenia, I think it is time we all have an agenda. Acheiving the same thing every other civilized nation in the world has, Universal Healthcare.
 bliss serendipity
Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 197
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/26/2007 11:46:58 PM
I saw the movie on Monday night here in vancouver, bc. Pretty good movie. We don't have the best health care system in Canada, what the Americans have is outrageous. I just read tonight that 2 million MORE people have been added to the list of ones who don't have medical insurance.

Whether you like MM or not is not the point, the system the Americans have is rotten, a very small select group of individuals profiting by the trillions from illnesses (and many of them manufactured) of so many people.
 Simlasa
Joined: 10/30/2004
Msg: 203
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/27/2007 4:51:29 PM
I saw this movie the other day.
I think it's his best so far, technically... as a film.
Though I can't recall ever seeing a documentary that DIDN'T have an agenda Michael Moore still disappoints me by not allowing more balance, by talking in that mopey voice he puts on, by pulling shenanigans that will do nothing but alienate people he might otherwise be convincing to take a second look.

Still... none of that changes the fact that there is a serious problem here, that reducing people's lives to profit/loss statements is not in line with what we (supposedly) stand for.
In a country that supposedly is so overwhelmingly 'Christian' I really don't understand how it gibes with that belief system to have these things going on around us.

Not everything should be insured/provided by the government... but justice, education, health, defense... surely that's not such a crazy notion? Or are we really that selfish and greedy?
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 204
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Michel Moore's New Film Sicko
Posted: 6/27/2007 4:53:05 PM
It is pathetic 40 million americans have no health care.And as for veterens and the way there treated and budjet cuts dont even get me started.
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