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 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 251
simple question - do you believe in a god?Page 11 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)

As for Einstein do we know what exactly he meant in the other quote??? Have we read enough books on his thoughts and beliefs or just google what we need to hear????

I don't think it's what 'we' have done, it does appear to be what you have done though.

Einstein was often quoted in this regard, and just as often misquoted. Here is another quote from Einstein.

About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church. As long as I can remember, I have resented mass indoctrination. I do not believe in the fear of life, in the fear of death, in blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws.

Certainly he mentions 'God' at the beginning of the quote, but as you say, do we really know what he meant by 'God'?
It seems to me that he is suggesting his 'God' is Nature and the immutable Laws of Physics.
Yet this quote is often used to suggest that Einstein, who was a (non-practising) Jew, believed in the christian 'God'.
Apparently this misinterpretation annoyed him sufficiently for him to attempt clarification. Einstein again...

It was of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
I am a deeply religious non believer. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.
I have never imputed to nature a purpose or goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.
The idea of a personal god is quite alien to me and seems even naive.

As I said, 'we' aren't quoting selectively. You are.

There is a reference earlier in the thread to the central problem in any debate between a believer and a rational person.
The reference is to a debate between the British philosopher, Bertrand Russell, and Fr Frederick Copleston, a Jesuit priest, concerning the non-existence of God.
(http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/copleston.htm)

These two learned scholars were each using different language constructs, and different standards of logic, to understand the meaning of 'God'. Which is bad enough, but even worse was that they couldn't agree, in any practical way, to definitions (of the words each was using to present their argument).
The debate therefore, rather unfortunately, was not conclusive.

Your misunderstanding of basic terms, in this thread, illustrates the same process.
For instance, the only person talking in competitive terms is you, eg arm wrestling, and the introduction of a 'right or wrong' paradigm.
In response, I expressed my opinion that your attitude seemed adversarial, which is a perfectly reasonable conclusion given your use of adversarial terms.
You ignore what I'm saying though, and instead accuse me of 'belittling' you simply because I expressed my opinion.

I really don't want to descend to the level of name-calling and would rather avoid a debating 'contest' that concludes when someone 'wins'.
So, with that in mind, it becomes clear that talking with you on this, and perhaps any, topic is an exercise in futility. Therefore, I'll just agree to disagree.
 lok
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 252
13 page difficult question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/14/2008 12:38:09 AM
God is a little green man who flys around in a spaceship laughing at man and his "accomplishments"
 Goddess of dreams
Joined: 5/12/2007
Msg: 253
13 page difficult question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/14/2008 1:41:55 AM
It seems to me that he is suggesting his 'God' is Nature and the immutable Laws of Physics.


Thank you.
Therefore according to this quote he believed in a God. Nature and physics.
 Faux Pa
Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 254
13 page difficult question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/14/2008 4:59:13 AM

Some people get their strength in the name of God, why take their strength away and push them towards emptiness.

For some that may be true . . I guess . . I suppose . . maybe . .
I'd also suggest that's a rather narrow view of 'belief'.
For instance, I don't have that 'belief' and yet don't lack any perceivable strength. All the believers I've ever known don't have any extra strength, either. The notion that to 'not believe' sees one destined for emptiness appears silly doesn't it. Why is it that folks can't take responsibility for their own strength instead of relying for it, on God?
Would God actually look to encourage this idea, and if so, what would be the purpose? . . support? . . reliance? . . religious enslavement?
The 'taking of strength' from God thang sounds strikingly like a man made idea to me.

Anyway, I don't think the debate so far has considered destroying temples or the like but if need be, I reckon I could assemble a couple of decent arguments . . but we'd be straying from the topic.


You see It was because of Ugses that we are here today sitting in our warm home having our lights on and using our internet.

Well, certainly . . but my point was that in all the time since Ug sat on that comfy rock, we've made zero progress with all this.
Or, to put it another way, I wouldn't be surprised if we could link mans original dawning knowledge and ponderings of his own mortality to the onset of God as a concept.

But this belief thing is rather nebulous in so many ways but I always liked the goldfish analogy:
There's two goldfish in a bowl. One goldfish turns to the other and asks 'Does God really exist?'
The second goldfish replies . . 'Of course God exists! . . who else do you think changes the water!'


But wait . . there's more . .

It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
-- Arthur C. Clarke

Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders?
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
-- Issac Asimov


See . . now there's three brainy guys who've thought about this stuff.
 still dreaming59
Joined: 9/24/2008
Msg: 255
13 page difficult question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/14/2008 6:55:09 AM
Please help me out here, I understand the definition of the word "faith" as defined in lets say the Concise Oxford Dictionary...but I'm having trouble understanding the psychological or emotional benefits in the belief of a non tangible higher power, other than to appease my conscience.

I can rationalise the advantage of "faith" in ones own ability or even faith in mankind
(to a lesser extent) but for me the unshakable belief in an unproven god somehow seems to undermine or trivialise my own capabilities.
Doesn't the idea that a true believer can commit heinous crimes against society and still get an all expenses paid free ticket to nirvana make you pause to reflect somewhat.

The above statement was not made to belittle anyone's personal beliefs but more an attempt to be educated in something i obviously fail to understand.
 Tahmara
Joined: 8/28/2007
Msg: 256
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/23/2008 7:10:06 AM
Yes.

I don't expect to understand all God's ways ... If I did, God would have to be less than me and would subsequently, not be God ... do you get what I am getting at?

BTW the Bible does not say God is a man ... and the Hebrew for Spirit is a feminine word ... 'ruauch' (just google ruauch). What is said is that God created humans in God's image ... ok creation in 6 calendar days seems a little bizare ... but the translation, again is not helpful ... a"day" really means a "period of time" and as such doesn't veto evolution. The masculine image comes from the patriarchal society of the day and the fact that there is not a neutral gender word. There are also images in the scriptures of God being feminine ... but I've probably written too much as it is.

Back to the question ... Yes, I believe in God ... and I experience his presence continually.
 Kissthisfrog !
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 257
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/23/2008 2:11:09 PM


I think the question should be a#se about..., I think the question should be.....,
'does God believe in today's man/woman?'

my answer to that would be a 'no'.

........, but I also think it's likely true believers could 'not ever' answer that question in the negative.
 daddy-day-care
Joined: 6/12/2008
Msg: 258
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History
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/23/2008 11:56:06 PM

simple question - do you believe in a god?


simple answer - yes!!


more complicated answer - yes!!


oh - you want more ,,,, ok I believe in a christian god, and of no domination, but the god I have leant from, through the bible, I am weary of different publications of this book and choose the king james to study or new king james for easyier reading.
I have read it many times!!

I stand fast to believing in my god I will be either wrong or right and will not know untill the day I die. But I figure it better to be right or wrong than sit on the fence and have no chance.


I do not judge others for there believe nor push mine, in saying that I do like to study it and talk to those who are open in there views as long as it doesn't turn into who's wrong or right.................. at that point I walk and say please agree to disagree..........

does that answer your simple question..
 smoranean
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 259
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/24/2008 10:07:05 PM


1. do you believe in a god?
2. any god?

3. and why?


1. Yes.

2. No.

3. Because I like the weather in Heaven.

 ProcessOfElimination
Joined: 11/3/2008
Msg: 260
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/26/2008 4:50:47 AM
Nope.

Religion is simply a crutch, like alcohol or gambling or sex addiction. It offers a short term escape to those that need a little escapism. Whatever works for you, I'm not here to judge.

I never had my son baptised to any faith - he can make up his own mind when he's old enough. I don't care what he chooses to believe or follow, so long as he does with both eyes open and does so for the right reasons, not because he's been brow beaten with what amounts to threats of spending eternity in a fiery place, by some intangible father figure shaking his finger at him from thousands of years ago.

Just my 2c worth!!
 Kissthisfrog !
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 261
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/26/2008 10:20:52 PM
No ....., show me the evidence and I will consider it..., that's evidence..., OK ?
 smoranean
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 262
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/26/2008 10:51:33 PM

No ....., show me the evidence and I will consider it..., that's evidence..., OK ?


Give it time mate. You'll have your evidence eventually. Don't ask ahead of time.

 Kissthisfrog !
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 263
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/26/2008 11:05:21 PM
Well now I just want evidence...., that there will be evidence in time.....
 smoranean
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 264
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History
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/26/2008 11:29:43 PM

Well now I just want evidence...., that there will be evidence in time...


With respect sir, if you consider the outcome of having your evidence right now, sans faith, then I am sure that you will understand that all hell would break loose in such an event.

Some ignorant scientists constantly promote faith in the religion of atheism because they do not understand the non-falisifable, of which God is.

Do not feel obliged to suddenly take on some faith in anything that you don't feel comfortable with because as you go through life, there is a good chance that different events will come your way to help you find your own faith without the need of outside persuasion, but one thing you should realise as very very ignorant, is to ask for evidence of God.

There is one thing that is best avoided. Don't ask for evidence of what is non-falsifiable by design.

Apart from that, enjoy! It's a great planet so why not make the most of it while it lasts!

 Kissthisfrog !
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 265
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/27/2008 3:55:23 AM
Relax grasshopper..., just show me the evidence.
 ~Pedro Sanchez~
Joined: 11/23/2006
Msg: 266
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/27/2008 4:17:03 AM
Just as christianity/islam/judaism is often accused of being a crutch, atheism/agnosticism/any ism is quite often the same....cliche forthcoming.....it takes the same amount if not more faith to be a seriously practising atheist/agnostic/any ist.

I'm just worried about this minor issue they call hell....the thought of some imp tugging at my sinful parts...I would like to be able to say the correct password at the pearly gates...."code word?", "fluffy duck." Wrong!

Its hard man (enter 70's slap bass acid jazz)....but since I was born and raised catholic, surrounded by a bevy of nuns and taught english by a non-albino Jesuit, I might as well err on the side of the existence of a higher being with enough ability to perform highly complex mathematical equations to create grass and stop the earth shifting a couple of metres off its axis, or the moon bounce around randomly, occasionally traversing on a tic-tac-toe pattern just to f*ck me up.

Until there's evidence to the contrary (I mean there is no evidence that there is no God either), I remain a good catholic boy with no welt/strop/paddle marks on my ass.

Oh, what can it mean...to a daydream believer and a homecoming queen.
 goldfishxyz
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 267
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/27/2008 4:38:20 AM
As the Bible says " The fool saith in his heart there is no God". Or more appropriately science cannot answer everything. Look up christian science on google to prove this. Read the short book of Ecclesiastes in the bible to find the meaning of life.
 daddy-day-care
Joined: 6/12/2008
Msg: 268
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/27/2008 5:52:35 PM

Relax grasshopper..., just show me the evidence.


look around
 goldfishxyz
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 269
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/27/2008 9:21:13 PM
Yes, Look around, there is absolutely no way this planet and humans could have occured by just random chance of accident.

There is little or no prove for evolution. Think about it. Never in human history has there been matting between 2 different species been succesful. A dog and cat have sex and nothing. A horse and donkey have sex and make a mule but then the mule is infertile. Most mutations tend to be infertile and short lived.
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 270
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/28/2008 9:34:08 AM
Would the creationists theory be an acceptable challenge to DNA evidence in court?
 goldfishxyz
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 271
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/28/2008 2:12:02 PM
Just remember that evolution is just a theory and has very little real proof. Just as believing in god is a religion so is evolution as both require believing in things you cannot prove. Why cannot these scientists be honest and acknowledge that evolution is a religion and thus should not be tort in schools.
 likes_a_laugh
Joined: 3/17/2007
Msg: 272
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/28/2008 2:36:21 PM
Yeah, a course I do.

It's a bit like in Mad Max 2: "When all that's left is one last chance, pray that he's still out there ... somewhere!" ...

I believe, it's part of who I am. No explanation necessary.
 hilly1971
Joined: 8/14/2008
Msg: 273
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/28/2008 7:09:42 PM
A dog and cat have sex and nothing
Dont you be letting my dat or my cog hear you saying they are nothing!

Seriously though I find it a lot more sensible to believe that things have evolved rather then the thought that a virgin took one from god (or not apparently) and 9 months later there was a kid! The only thing we have to "prove" this idea is a book that realistically could have been written by anyone with a good imagination.

I guess if creation is a religion and is not fit to be taught in schools then nor are any religions?? Sounds ideal to me actually.

Now im off to part the waters of my dam ,cos I can see the Jehovahs at my front gate. I have been waiting with baited breath for the new edition of watchtower.
 smoranean
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 274
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/28/2008 8:42:14 PM


1) Evolution is defined as: Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species. [The Free Dictionary]

It is not the interbreeding between unrelated species. As the definition suggests it is a series of minuscule changes affecting the genetics of a generation of species (not an entire species on a global level!) until a new species is formed, typically as a result of a changing habitat.

If you wish to see evidence of this then look at the different races of human beings, or go to a dog show and look at the different breeds of dog. Dogs that are alive today would not survive if left in a world without people: the only dogs that would survive are the ones most similar to wolves and would evolve as their habitat demands it. There are also plenty of fossilised remains of extinct species that show evolution in progress.

So, as you can see God did not place each animal in a habitat that can accommodate it - the animals evolved to live in their specific habitat.

2) Earth and humans did develop due to chance. Particles in the universe collided in to each other forming matter which collided in to other matter until planets and stars developed. Eventually Earth was formed and was stable enough to sustain life. Single cell organisms were the first forms of life on Earth and they evolved in to larger species which eventually evolved in to monkeys who eventually evolved in to humans.


Sometimes angiosperms make me wonder whether God was there at The Beginning (aka Big Bang) or only came onto the field in the final quarter, but could it be possible that evolution might have been God's idea?

I'm not sure how to see the two concepts as exclusive, because all science seems to teach me is how long it takes us to work such simple things out and how much I'm never going to know for certain nor probably want to anyway. I reckon Darwin wrote it down fairly well to start with, not that it hadn't already been written before, in various styles.

I like both ideas! What's wrong with that?
 ~Pedro Sanchez~
Joined: 11/23/2006
Msg: 275
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 11/28/2008 9:35:00 PM


Sometimes angiosperms make me wonder whether God was there at The Beginning (aka Big Bang) or only came onto the field in the final quarter, but could it be possible that evolution might have been God's idea?

I'm not sure how to see the two concepts as exclusive, because all science seems to teach me is how long it takes us to work such simple things out and how much I'm never going to know for certain nor probably want to anyway. I reckon Darwin wrote it down fairly well to start with, not that it hadn't already been written before, in various styles.

I like both ideas! What's wrong with that?


Actually, that's a good point there smoranean, why we haven't considered anything like that....maybe the creator is a highly evolved human race sometime in the future and created the big bang at the time when they could conduct a controlled explosion in the universe. Maybe that highly evolved human have done away with diseases and death and obtained immortality status as well as his friends but some of them were bad to the core and this highly evolved human said nope...gotta find a way to filter the immortality club....I should go return to the past with my dandy De Lorean and start afresh but this time only the goodie-two-shoes can join my immortality club....um, hang on, that'll be too hard....how about they just give me credit for solving all of life's mysteries...yep, that's it...me...a highly evolved human will be known as god! If they call me god and publicly declare it, then I give them the code word....e=mc2.

I don't have a problem calling a highly evolved human (if indeed that is the case) as God, after all, we call them musos who can pluck and use a tremolo bar as rock gods!
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