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 seanymph64
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 326
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simple question - do you believe in a god?Page 14 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)
I am one who does believe in God.. I have my hard times too.. life certainly hasn't been easy for me for nearly 24 years. I attribute my resilience to my faith.

Faith is a gift you either have it or don't ( if you don't have it you can pray for it and it will come in time- ot your time but God's time) .. lots that happen to us in life make no sense but our wisdom and knowledge of life and everything in it is very limited compared to a God who knows everything and created everything. Our journey in life is about becoming the best we can and sometimes hardships brings out the best in us, in ways we never would have dreamed of!

So I see lots of suffering and lots that doesn't make sense. I do believe that ultimately Gods hand is in it. God is supreme and his wisdom if beyond our comprehension. Even when natural disasters strike we wonder why God allowed it or do we allow it because we live our lives so oblivious to Him that he sometimes looks the other way for a bit to let us know how life would be without Him. Are all the faithful holding back the arms of justice for the rest of the world?

All too much to go into here. I do have faith and it has sustained me I do believe in God I talk to Him each day and thank Him for the joy and suffering he brings into my life as I trust he loves me and as any loving father desires.. only the best for his child.

ps. I didn't believe for a very long time and now I see how richer my life has become and happier even in the midst of storms (I have a deep sense of peace ultimately even though my children were abducted for 4 months etc.. I have had my lot too!!). I used to believe the religion was a crutch for weak or weak minded people... don't knock it until you try it is all I can say.
 greyingred
Joined: 6/12/2008
Msg: 327
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:06:17 AM
whoops...I think I lied....not about the weirdo take her to Graylands dreaming thing but the God thing. I still stand by God, Boomshanky, my left toenail etc etc (name it what you will) not being sentient in the literal, direct action, reaction thing but I know there is something outside of everyones' consciousness that has as powerful a force as an A.D.D. elephant on orange food colouring. Had too much proof over the years including some very sick, black cosmic jokes and yes I do pray, often talk outloud to 'my left toenail' and try to stay aware of my surroundings.

Here's a slightly nicer cosmic joke. I could bang on about how we make meaning of the world through essentially patterns, being words, objects, how to get from A to B...and continue on and on about how we have no choice but to see patterns in everything, ergo wrong conclusions are as likely as right but I won't. Was very peeved with the world in general and especially with the difficulties I was facing without a partner. So as is my won't I shouted at My Left Toenail that I had had enough doing things on my own and I needed a hand. Be careful what you ask for by the way. The next day my neighbour was moving and asked if I want a unusual chair. Sitting in my hallway is a wonderful wooden chair made, I presume in Bali, in the shape of a hand. Man, I laughed myself silly and understood that actually I was quite capable of managing by myself, I just didn't want to.
 myforumsite
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 328
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 5:02:18 AM
seanymph64 - I’m sorry that you had to endure your children being abducted. As a parent I can’t imagine much worse.

However, I disagree where you said that non-believers shouldn’t “knock it until you try it”

As humans there are lots of things we should knock even though we haven’t tried it. How about incest, rape, violence, female genital mutilation, drugs, alcoholism? We don’t necessarily have to try something to know that it isn’t right. (Before you all get up in arms, no, I am NOT suggesting these are akin to religious belief – I am just pointing out that we don’t have to try something to reject it.)

Furthermore, for those of us that don’t believe, we simply can’t try it if we don’t believe in it. I can’t decide one week to ‘give God a go’ because I just don’t believe that one exists, therefore the experiment fails from the start.

I think this is the best quote I have ever seen (I have stolen it from another forum posters profile):

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Sir Stephen Henry Roberts.
 greg8001
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 329
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 7:46:22 AM
"fear and guilt.....

without these two emotions any religion would cease to exist.

religion is emotional blackmail!"

I think there is a grain of truth here, but religions also have room for other human emotions, such as love, sadness, joy, and so on. Fear and guilt are often seen in many religions as part of the human existential condition from which we are to be saved; salvation is achieved when fear and guilt in this life (especially concerning death) are removed by more positive emotions such as hope, joy, a sense of inner peace, and compassion.

Religion clearly does involve human emotions and quite often religion can become quite sentimental. Even so, most religions that have been around for a long time have worked out a more substantial core of ideas and belief which also try to engage the mind as well as the emotions. I think it is to their credit that the world's religions have contributed some powerful and interesting philosophical ideas concerning God, the universe, and ethical and moral matters. These cannot be dismissed as the ramblings of the insane or idiots. Even so, the foundations on which many religious beliefs and ideas rested (including with proofs of the existence of God) have been seriously undermined and questioned, particularly by advances in science which have shed light on matters such as how life evolved or how the universe came to be.
 GP.Sunshine
Joined: 11/30/2008
Msg: 330
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 11:10:34 AM
Wait, when we talk about god, are we talking about the same GOD??? Eastern vs Western vs Middle East vs Middle West?

Jesus is a great philosopher. I like some of his perspectives, but not the others. But viewing a philospher as a god is something I can't do. Dalai Lama and Gandhi are great philosophers, too. Some people worship them as Gods. For me, they're simply philosophers.

However, I don't approve or refute the existence of god, because the current technology simply can't confirm or refute his/her existence. "God creates the whole universe" from spiritual perspective can equate to "Big Bang creates the whole universe" from scientific perspective; however, neither can be proven or disapproven.

Technology is advancing, and human knowledge is growing. Hopefuly someday this question can be solved.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 331
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:02:24 PM

seeing is believing

It's not always quite so obvious as that.
I haven't, for example, seen Uranus.... but I've seen enough evidence to be sure it exists.
 Brizguy_2008
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 332
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:07:01 PM

I haven't, for example, seen Uranus.... but I've seen enough evidence to be sure it exists.


Because you keep finding the toilet seat up?
 GP.Sunshine
Joined: 11/30/2008
Msg: 333
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:07:56 PM
Then I hope you see what you really see.

Quite frequently, our brain can trick us into seeing things that are not real. It's called "illusion."
 GreyNomad43
Joined: 12/4/2008
Msg: 334
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:19:57 PM
So are you saying....Uranus is an Illusion? OMG.. yikes!
 GP.Sunshine
Joined: 11/30/2008
Msg: 335
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:20:49 PM
Nope!

I'm responding to this thread: "simple answer=seeing is believing."
 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 336
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 1:45:54 PM
Stands to reason doesn't it? It's the Big Dump Theory. If you see the crap - there has to be an arsehole close by.
 brissyLuke
Joined: 10/12/2008
Msg: 337
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/3/2009 2:16:50 PM
It is difficult to credit any one religion as being True or any one god as being True when there have been so many throughout human history. None appears to have any greater claim to being more credible or reliable than any other. Why Christianity and not Judaism? Why Islam and not Hinduism? Why monotheism and not polytheism? Every position has had its defenders, all as ardent as those in other traditions. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

Apparently (catholic .christianity ect ect) :if god alamighty was the big creator of the world and all living things, he loves us all and can do so many amazing miracles , if we sin, he will forgive us:

If we pray for world peace ... does it happen..
If we pray for miracles.... does it happen..
If we pray for less violence ...does it happen..
If we pray for less hunger and famine... does it happen..
ect ect.... No it ony gets worse... And why on earth if this god is so great... Does the Church need so much god damn money.... I s god busted arse broke......
 Naamah
Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 338
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/4/2009 2:41:02 AM
I think this is the best quote I have ever seen (I have stolen it from another forum posters profile): "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Sir Stephen Henry Roberts.

Yeah it's pure gold, isn't it.
But it's hardly likely to make a dent in the mind of the faithful believers in their particular god because...


It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.
Adolf Hitler.
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 339
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 1:22:06 PM


I think this is the best quote I have ever seen (I have stolen it from another forum posters profile): "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Sir Stephen Henry Roberts.

This argument is weak. Atheism is not "non belief", it is a firm belief that "there is no god".
A-(greek privative, no) Theos- (god). To dismiss some gods as a ludicrous concept does not dismiss the concept of "a god" in any way.
It does amuse me that "rational atheists" do in fact offer no evidence in support of their belief. Rather they point the finger at the lack of evidence given by theists, which I must say, is non existent.
This is argumentum ad ignorantiam.
We all hold certain beliefs, that help us make sense of the world. If some people say "there is god!", and that belief helps them, that's great!. If some people say "there is no god!", that is also great!. The main thing is that people should get satisfaction from their beliefs.
If a belief harms you, then it is not a very good belief to have. Whether or not such a belief is true, really doesn't matter.
 SAIUN
Joined: 5/23/2007
Msg: 340
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 1:54:03 PM

It does amuse me that "rational atheists" do in fact offer no evidence in support of their belief. Rather they point the finger at the lack of evidence given by theists, which I must say, is non existent.

If a belief harms you, then it is not a very good belief to have.


Lack of evidence to prove existence is thus evidence proving inexistence. If it is not possible by any means to detect a giraffe in my living room, there is thus no giraffe present. (Of course, people then make claims about God existing in a spiritual realm separate to the physical).

As to your second quoted comment, it's when the beliefs of one harms another is when I begin to take issue.
 Kissthisfrog !
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 341
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 1:58:25 PM
^^^^^^^
But Sir SAIUN...., you would still allow people to choose their own beliefs right ?
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 342
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 2:50:02 PM

Lack of evidence to prove existence is thus evidence proving inexistence.

No it isn't.


If it is not possible by any means to detect a giraffe in my living room, there is thus no giraffe present.


Your analogy is incorrect. You are comparing the concept of god to a giraffe. This is of course one of the more simple arguments given by atheists, and is easily disposed of.
In order for you to make a correct analogy, you would first of all have to show that the concept of god was in some way like a giraffe. I would like to see you do this.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 343
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 2:58:48 PM

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

You are comparing the concept of god to a giraffe.

I read it as comparing one preposterous thing with another.

This is of course one of the more simple arguments given by atheists, and is easily disposed of.

I would like to see you do this.
 likes_a_laugh
Joined: 3/17/2007
Msg: 344
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 3:25:25 PM
Umm, how does one dispose of a Giraffe? I'd have trouble stuffing one into a wheelie bin (recyclable or not???) and the freezer ain't big enuff to let me spread him (or her) over a few bin collection weeks...

I believe in the existence of the Giraffe. I also believe in the existence of the god who made the Giraffe.

Symmetry in nature is the product of design. Life in all its complexity is the product of design - be it plant, animal or human life.

Similarly people create buildings and ordered civic structures, the earth does not create anything ordered if left to itself. The weathering of the planet tends towards flat earth and shallow seas, it tends to lowest energy states and it tends to maximum randomness.

In my simple mind the concept of consciousness - yes, the very thing that makes you a rational being - is not a product of evolution and natural selection stemming back from a single cell who somehow appeared in the primordial soup a fair while back.

I could better swallow the concept of being 'planted here by other beings' than being evolved from the dust. The other beings would, naturally, be products of a higher order as well...
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 345
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 3:28:46 PM

Yes it is.

Sorry mate, I'll slow it down a bit. The position held by Sauin (sp) was that there is no evidence for something, therefore the opposite must be true. I pointed out that this was a logical fallacy.

As for the second point, all you have done is claimed that the concept of god is preposterous. Anyone can claim anything.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 346
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 3:40:35 PM

I pointed out that this was a logical fallacy.

No you didn't, you merely contradicted him.

Anyone can claim anything.

Your suggestions that you refute the argument being an example.
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 347
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 4:16:10 PM
Before this turns into a Monty Python sketch, which would actually be quite cool, if I were John Cleese, I should point out a few things. "SAIUN" says...


Lack of evidence to prove existence is thus evidence proving inexistence.(sic)


This is rubbish. It is a logical fallacy. It is a bit like me saying, " I have no proof that you are wearing socks, therefore the opposite must be true, you are not wearing socks".
So yes, I did contradict him, because his argument is crap.



Your suggestions that you refute the argument being an example.

Do you work for the Sun-Herald full time, or just commission ?.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 348
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 5:05:34 PM

It is a bit like me saying, " I have no proof that you are wearing socks, therefore the opposite must be true, you are not wearing socks"

A bit like? It's nothing like.
As you say, the fact you have no proof, proves nothing. But what steps have you taken to discover if I am, or am not, wearing socks?
You suggest no evidence for either proposition, and therefore, quite believably, claim ignorance.

This was the original statement.

If it is not possible by any means to detect a giraffe in my living room, there is thus no giraffe present.

(My bold) It may be difficult to prove, objectively, the absence of something, but if a search using all means available produces no evidence it's a reasonable conclusion that the something is indeed, absent.
Which is another way of saying that nothing has been detected in large quantities. Therefore the evidence that nothing exists is abundant, tending to exclude the proposition that something does. Perhaps behind the curtains or under the sofa.

This is rubbish.

Do you work at a rag sorting depot?
 Naamah
Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 349
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 5:20:02 PM

I think this is the best quote I have ever seen (I have stolen it from another forum posters profile): "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer gods than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Sir Stephen Henry Roberts.


This argument is weak. Atheism is not "non belief", it is a firm belief that "there is no god".


I see the red guy's Advocate position has been filled.

Perhaps the misunderstanding stems from this

A-(greek privative, no) Theos- (god).

The A in atheism means 'not', or 'without'.
Asymmetrical means either not symmetrical, or without symmetry. It would be inaccurate to exclude either meaning.
Atypical means either not typical, or without aspects that are typical. It would be innacurate to exclude either meaning.
An atheist is anyone who is not a theist, whether that is defined as the belief that there is not a God/s or as being without belief in the existence of God/s. Your singular definition that excludes atheism from meaning "non belief" is inaccurate.

But even to grant you the more narrow definition...the quote says "I ...believe in one fewer gods than you". "One fewer", when talking to the usual monotheist, would equate to zero (thank someone for calculators). So in fact the quote is saying what you indicate it should say anyway... "I believe in zero gods" or "I believe in no gods". In fact, I saw Sir Stephen's quote as being a rather clever way of positioning the notion of atheism in context with monotheism to allow a clearer view, rather than simply hitting them against each other as is more commonly attempted....which is precisely why it's quoteworthy.


It does amuse me that "rational atheists" do in fact offer no evidence in support of their belief.

It is usually the accepted way that a belief in something carries the burden of proof. The definition of atheism that encompasses non-belief therefore carries no burden of proof. The definition of atheism that encompasses a belief that there is no god can be said to be backed up by the glaring and continuing absence of god. Given that theists claim their case is backed up by the glaring and continuing presence of god, they can hardly dismiss its validity.

That, and that inconsequential teensy tiny little matter of evolution and all its accompanying hard cold evidence.

Oh, and unlike the rest of you, I do have a giraffe in my loungeroom. And she's wearing socks.
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 350
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/5/2009 6:46:37 PM
Awesome stuff Naahmah, you make a very good argument. You are of course wrong, but it is a very well presented argument. You have at least challenged the meaning of "A" in Atheist. All smart atheists do this, and they are wrongheaded. Firstly, you are making an argument that there is no god, yet quibble over terms? I think you will find that the "A" in question, functions as a PRIVATIVE, that is NO, NOT , Oxford concise ,"disbelief in the existence of god, gods". Merriam Webster, " The belief that there is no god". So I think it is fair to say that when you say "atheism" you mean"I believe there is no god". Otherwise you would be agnostic. The new idea of "weak atheism" is indeed weak. It is agnosticism, and the definition equivocates unacceptably.
And NO!! For the last time, LACK OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE!!!. The idea of atheism can be backed up by nothing, just as theism is backed by nothing. You believe in god, you don't, how does this help you?
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