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 seanymph64
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 376
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simple question - do you believe in a god?Page 16 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)
myforumsite
Thanks for your comments..

My "don't knock it until you try it" was meant in ... keep an open mind sense - pertaining only to the subject matter at hand .. not a general statement about everything universal!!

Keeping an open mind and respecting that everyone has their own journey is what it is really about. More wars etc have been fought for religious reasons than anything else. Acceptance that everyone is different and always will be is the key.

The journey is what matters as it is the development that it brings within yourself. No matter what it is ... does it make you a better person in the end!
 seanymph64
Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 377
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 3:30:58 PM
message response to yellowjack 1/3/2009

You can't see wind but know it is there. How about oxygen can't see it either but still breath. This list could go on and on but you get my drift I am sure....
 IzzyB73
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 378
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 6:35:17 PM

My "don't knock it until you try it" was meant in ... keep an open mind sense - pertaining only to the subject matter at hand .. not a general statement about everything universal!!

Keeping an open mind and respecting that everyone has their own journey is what it is really about. More wars etc have been fought for religious reasons than anything else. Acceptance that everyone is different and always will be is the key.

The journey is what matters as it is the development that it brings within yourself. No matter what it is ... does it make you a better person in the end!


well said couldnt agree more .....

But of course I being me can not leave it at that .. I really need to get something off my chest here and am of course ready for the backlash that may come of it.

What offends me most about this thread is the lack of respect a persons belief in a God recieves . If the shoe was on the other foot and the people that have a belief called Atheist delusion , Ill informed or even likened them to Hitler , or any other less desirable person from history,because they shared a similar belief, they to would be highly offended , my point is this and yes I am repeating myself here from a past comments I have made . Just because a person believes In a God does not make them delusional, Ill informed etc .

Having a belief in something you can not see and touch isnt being dellusional its about having a faith in an something bigger than all of us... We cant see Love but we know it exist because we can feel it and breath it in when we are with people we care about. well i liken faith and God to that .

I know personally I cant not believe in the existance of a God and as for the lack of proof well I dont see it that way , I see proof of his existance everywhere I go, The grass, the trees , the animals and of course us , the human race living and breathing is proof enough for me . I would hate to think that once we leave this earth in our flesh form, that would be it , or that when we loose someone we love deeply that is it for them, It gives me peace to know and believe that people I have loved and lost in my life do not cease to exist and that they are more than just a memory, their soul the very being of the person that they were still exist ..........

Ok sure God might not exist , I and billions of others will be wrong and If that is the case all the non believers of the world can say all the I told you so's they want . BUT ..... what if He does exist ????

 ohthereugo
Joined: 2/12/2008
Msg: 379
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:04:51 PM
Just because you cant see something doesnt mean its not there .
 bbqandfishing
Joined: 4/26/2008
Msg: 380
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:06:16 PM
I'll start by saying I'm probably would could be considered an optimistic nihilist, which should state where I stand on the God question.

I'm with Izzy and likes_to_laugh on the whole belittling people with their beliefs thing. I love a God vs no-God argument as much as the next person, but it gets weird when the 'religious' atheists start to assume a position of absolute truth. There is no argument that can dismiss the idea of a prime-mover (at least I've never encountered one) - and to even dismiss the idea of a Grand Designer does nothing but narrow our world views. On that note though, I do agree that a hell of a lot of Christians have no idea about anything really, and they in all probability grasp onto the ideas of God and the Heavens due to laziness, but it's no reason to attack anyone for their choices. We're all just bits of matter stumbling through the darkness.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 381
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:14:36 PM

I really need to get something off my chest here and am of course ready for the backlash that may come of it.


You may find this hard to believe though. I understand your hyper-sensitivity, I feel it myself in regard to other issues.

Your post (#465) has nothing offensive in it that I can see? I don't get why you think you will be mocked or attacked for it?
People may disagree with you of course, because that's just the reverse of you disagreeing with them.

The point at which derision enters the debate is when christians claim 'special knowledge', or secret understanding of some higher purpose because they believe in something invisible they call 'god', who is apparently the only true one.

Some of your recent posts may have attracted attention because you were mocking others beliefs. And then denying you were doing it while claiming you were being persecuted by secret cliques. All the while ignoring the blatently incontravertible fact that many individual posters over the last few pages of this thread have expressed many individual points of view without anyone running foul of anyone else.
Perhaps because they were staying on topic, as you are now, and not attempting to ridicule? Not because they belong to a clique that exists in your imagination.

Despite the OP's initial query, this is clearly not a 'simple question'. Do I believe in 'a god'? Do you? It's not enough just to say yes, or no.
'Yes' or 'No' are spectacularly insufficient answers and it's to be expected, this being a forum for debate and discussion, that one might be asked to justify or explain ones position.
For the expression of views unchallenged - write a blog, don't enter a debate.

Whether I believe in 'a god' or in that 'creator god' the Bible talks about are really two different questions, but I think christians have trouble making the distinction, not to mention the difficulties christians tend to have with the concept of 'no god'.
Which is OK I guess, the trouble only starts when an adherant of any particular belief system starts to imply blame for their own lack of comprehension on other peoples lack of intelligence, or understanding.

For instance -

Spot on Izzyb, many on here like to belittle the believers. They hunt in packs and will use any reference they can google to support their argument. They consider themselves supremely intelligent and they have a lust to pursue an argument by dissecting and rebutting another's post. PersonallyI find it exceedingly boring. These are the ones in society who are non-inclusive, who are bigoted and who feel threatened by the notion of a power somewhat higher than themselves.

A host of sweeping generalizations that contribute nothing to the debate, instead belittling un-named others because they 'like to belittle'?
Accusations of intellectualism because 'they' actually look for references and support for their arguments, 'they' dissect and rebutt. Horror! Like they do in court for instance? To get at the truth? Sounds terrible.
What a bunch of non-inclusive bigots 'they' must be hey? Gosh, and feeling threatened by a power higher than themselves too, the way some people are threatened by rational thought I guess?
 ~Pedro Sanchez~
Joined: 11/23/2006
Msg: 382
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:18:35 PM
I believe with all my soul that at the end of the day, all posters in this forum do agree to disagree (because we're not armed to the teeth like Son of Rambow). The real question is: As a believer, will you date a heathen, gentile, infidel? As a non-believer, will you be seen dead with I'm a believer Monkees fanboy/girl?

As for me yes! My own personal faith hardly ever gets into a topic of discussion with my partners (exes). If I go to church, I sneak out and make out a dumb excuse....just going to a record shop to look at some rare Joy Division album. The truth is I haven't been to church in so many years (except Christmas when I light some candles...I'm good like that).

I once online dated a rebellious orthodox Jewish girl and I was ready to do the Bar Mitzvah for her sake, and move to a kibbutz near the border, but she said that was really unnecessary. She asked me if she needed to get baptised in the Roman Catholic church but I said she was way too late (read: too old). Sad thing was this is a true story, I kid you not.

Seriously though, there are a bunch of cringe-worthy christians (bless their zealous hearts), who go to church every other day except Labour Day, some of them become presidents of very powerful nuclear armed states, others your run-of-the-mill duelin' banjos choir boys. There's a bunch of unthinking christians who parade themselves as holier-than-any-run-of-the-mill-commoner and bible-bash like there's no tomorrow, and do the fainting thingo ('ave some fibre, you numb nuts). On the other side of the coin are the unbelievers who go to Atheists Anonymous every other day 'cept Christmas, some of them run nuclear armed countries too, while others are just plain red-necks with no banjo, but carry a .303 bolt action. There's a bunch of unthinking atheists that feel it cool to be bigger than Santa Claus as if to mock Santa See? I don't believe in you and I still get Christmas presents every year, rain or shine, winter spring summer or fall. Santa is a freakin' fraud!

One day we all will call it a day, and I would be seriously pissed if I oversleep because there's no judgement day at the end of that rainbow. The times when I held of chucking a fragmentation grenade in some hoon's passenger front seat who gave me the finger minutes earlier (caught up at the red light, bleh!). Or the urge to be an axe murder for not getting my fair share of hugs from Papa....but comfort myself with thoughts of some sort of Rolex Cosmograph Daytona from the King (not Elvis) in lieu.

I imagine someone would be pissed too for not believing, when the welcome committee is still smoldering from some humid cigar lounge....that's one endless summer right there....and they thought Folsom Prison was hard-as-nails with the umm, rapes and all...

Life is too short to be arguing.....and someone bloody date me before I die. I promise I won't mention the C word, or the G word, or the F...umm on second thoughts....at least let me taste heaven before the appointed kaput time and the unbelievers turn out to be spot on. (Oh drag.)

Here's something to think about though....if God was indeed to show Himself as the God of War (not the Playstation 2 game) with fiery eyes and big muscles and have over a billion angels all with eyes on their wings (this is the version from Revelation according to John) some of them over 8 feet tall (according to Oprah), and speaks in 120 decibels of pure baritone sonic nirvana wherever you're standing....then faith would be redundant isn't it? I mean I am dead sure every single living thing and rock would be trembling in belief....like even Kim Jong Il would be I berief, I berief...take me...am Yours. I reckon every porn star on the planet including *cough, cough* the love of my life Laure Sainclair would volunteer to be on Médecins Sans Frontières or World Vision in a snap....cos you do want to be on His side of the fence for that big war He's been harping on about since the time of Adam and Eve....but if the non-believers are right we'd all be asleep like in Cocoon 1& 2 and even they won't be able to wake up just to say and wag their dirty little finger at me I told you so....and no big war to end all wars, and we all live happily ever after (even though we're all dead). The end.


 julianx
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 383
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:22:00 PM

You can't see wind but know it is there.


True, but we can feel it on our faces and see trees move as it blows through them. We can also research weather patterns to find out what causes wind and what its purpose is.


The journey is what matters as it is the development that it brings within yourself. No matter what it is ... does it make you a better person in the end!


Excellent point I couldn’t agree more, personally I see this thread as part of that journey; individuals debating and questioning others beliefs is a great way to bring out ideas and ways of thinking that may not have occurred to them…or themselves for that matter.

As for the comments about personal attacks and people being offended: for a 20 page thread on a topic as emotive as religion I’ve seen remarkably few offensive posts, and I must say they have been equally apportioned to all sides of the discussion, for the most part it ‘s been an interesting and intelligent discussion.

I do think though that irony and satire are often misconstrued as abuse, whereas they are often just used to help prove or challenge a point, or to simply make the debate/discussion more colourful and engaging.
 daddy-day-care
Joined: 6/12/2008
Msg: 384
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:33:55 PM
For me it wasn't untill I had reached the end of my teather and reached out, then had my own personal mirracle, so how could I not believe. before that I was a monkeys uncle and scoffed / ridculed believers.

Since that turning point I have studied many beliefs and stand firm with the bible.
And if any educated non believer wanted a non judgementle discussion I would be more than oblidged to share what i believe, but not in a open forum ae there are to many know it alls, who through in remarks for attention then run.

I "do not" attach myself to any denomanation because as much as I admire their dedication, I can biblicly argue their own beliefs.

Further as I have jumped fence a few times, hence I wont belittle myself in the above argments as its these arguments that have destroyed billions+++++ of people lives, whom ordanaryly would be great mates.

People love one enother and dont judge or feel begrudged. as it just were we are at the present and we all have room to move, unfutunetly maybe not the time.

DDC's opinion
 ohthereugo
Joined: 2/12/2008
Msg: 385
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 9:59:07 PM
MzScrubber

This might seem a bit cold but i am pritty sure the doctor told you why he died .

God didnt take your dad away in his early forties either .
Accidents or the body failing to work anymore is part of life and death cycle

But for some unknown reason nobody told you that at 16 but now your 38 you know how it works .


.

Anwering yes or no is simple Yes

Why ... You wouldnt believe me if i told you .
 IzzyB73
Joined: 6/26/2007
Msg: 386
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/7/2009 11:11:56 PM

You may find this hard to believe though. I understand your hyper-sensitivity, I feel it myself in regard to other issues.


Now why would I find that hard to believe ????



Your post (#465) has nothing offensive in it that I can see? I don't get why you think you will be mocked or attacked for it?


I agree nothing offensive in it at all , however people can be just as hyper-sensitive in reguards to my opinions as I have been with theirs


The point at which derision enters the debate is when christians claim 'special knowledge', or secret understanding of some higher purpose because they believe in something invisible they call 'god', who is apparently the only true one.


And don't non believers claim the lack of a God as their "secret knowledge" and that their truth is the only truth works both ways doesnt it ?


Some of your recent posts may have attracted attention because you were mocking others beliefs. And then denying you were doing it while claiming you were being persecuted by secret cliques.


two wrongs dont make it right I suppose


Whether I believe in 'a god' or in that 'creator god' the Bible talks about are really two different questions, but I think christians have trouble making the distinction, not to mention the difficulties christians tend to have with the concept of 'no god'.
Which is OK I guess, the trouble only starts when an adherant of any particular belief system starts to imply blame for their own lack of comprehension on other peoples lack of intelligence, or understanding.


The same could be said about non believers , true ????

As for staying not staying on topic and mocking of course we are all guilty and slip up especially with such a highly sensitive and personal subject even you expletive deleted have slipped up on occasion re: message #302 and 305
 Naamah
Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 387
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/8/2009 9:12:41 AM
when darwin surmised this theory... science did not have as much knowledge as it does now...
dna for eg... darwin based a theory without dna sequence.. basic chromosone theory..
dna is not random.. its soooooo.... ordered.. its amazing..

Soulmate, correct me if I am wrong, but I was of the understanding that the more we learn about dna the more Darwin's theories are being confirmed. Your post seems to indicate otherwise and I wondered if you could give a bit more info on what you meant?


and am of course ready for the backlash

I would like to reply to a few points you raised in your post because I think they are worth responding to. I hope you don't see it as backlash, but rather an interest in what you have to say. I bear no personal malice towards you whatsoever and I genuinely say that without any of the "sweetie" tone directed at me earlier, and in spite of all and any circulating rumours about me being the devil incarnate.


We cant see Love but we know it exist

I've see that one mentioned a few times. I agree it is valid to compare faith to love. Both are felt rather than seen. Feelings are invisible. But that is not the same thing as comparing 'love for someone' to 'faith in god'. Love and faith are both feelings. God is meant to be the object of the feeling rather than the feeling itself, so it's not comparing apples with apples. So it seems to me that if you want to compare "faith in god" to "love for someone", yes the love and the faith are without visible evidence, but the god part corresponds to the 'someone' part, and there is inevitably visible evidence that the 'someone' has at some point been visibly seen (even if they are now moved away or deceased) by the person feeling the love. But god hasn't been seen by those who are putting their faith in him.
Or...put another way...it seems perfectly rational to me that feelings like faith and love do exist without visible proof, but what seems irrational is when the feelings are felt for something that is said to exist without visible proof. I think there is a distinction there.


BUT ..... what if He does exist ????

...that's a big if...but I reckon any god worth his salt would not be insecure enough to be offended by the fact that people used the brains he gave 'em to form their own opinions. In fact, he might like a good debate himself, and prefer to pull up a stool with the stubborn opinionated types. Mind you...it'd be a bit of an ask to debate the existence of god with...god.


What offends me most about this thread is the lack of respect a persons belief in a God recieves . If the shoe was on the other foot and the people that have a belief called Atheist delusion , Ill informed or even likened them to Hitler , or any other less desirable person from history,because they shared a similar belief, they to would be highly offended
I can't speak for any other atheist, but I wouldn't be in the least offended. I mean if it was a post that pretty much boiled down to nothing more than "oh youse guys suck" then it wouldn't be something I had much time for...but if it was something that was written interestingly and intelligently, then I'd enjoy debating it. Atheism is an opinion formed as a result of lack of proof of an alternative truth, so it's based on a perceived knowledge. It is therefore possibly less likely to be something people get as sensitive about as those who hold an opinion formed in spite of lack of proof because it is based on faith. I'd say generally people are less likely to be offended if their knowledge is challenged as opposed to if their beliefs are challenged. I actually think there is a lot of misperception about debating posts...they often don't contain the anger those not used to debate assume they contain...as was evidenced by the earlier misassumption that people debating earlier were 'fighting' when actually none of them were in the least bit annoyed at each other.

Speaking of what offends...my understanding s that the forum is meant to be used to challenge each others' opinions. Posts arguing a point about belief in god, or any valid topic, are not against the rules. We're allowed to address a post in order to comment on its contents. People with strong opinions about topics who can string a decent sentence together are not required to water things down, nor be agreeable, nor pander to people's sensitivities about their own posted opinions or beliefs, and god/religion is not off limits. We are allowed to try to overturn or discredit an alternative viewpoint about god by providing a counter-argument related to the topic. It's those posts that don't contain an argument to support the poster's own point of view about god but instead (or mostly) resort to making personal comments, assumptions, or insinuations about other posters because they mistakenly think that constitutes debate, who are the ones breaking the rules. I think the bulk of the content of message 466 falls into that category.
 Trulio
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 388
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/8/2009 5:19:53 PM
Interesting thread! Interesting that each of the quotes apparently subscribes to the believe that there is order in the universe. I see no reason why that belief would contradict a belief in evolution and in particular the evolution of DNA.

The funny thing is that DNA is composed of 20 amino acids....and those amino acids are so common in all DNA so as to render the only logical inference that DNA chemically is ordered and has not changed in billions of years. There are some other amino acids but (as far as I know) all DNA is made from only 20 amino acids.

The idea of the randomness in nature is there, but on a different level. Randomness relates to 'observation', not fact. Another word for the random is 'stochastic', or chance.

Randomness does not mean more than that. For instance the prehistoric, rightly or wrongly, referred to events in nature as 'occasions', and the verb form of an even is what ever 'occasions'...you see this word a lot in the Old Testament when writers are referring to natural events like storms, et cetera.

The word 'occasioned' is rarely if every qualified by any other event' suggesting that it is a 'supreme' god, or deity which intervenes in natural events, which does the occasioning.

Random means 'unpredictable', chance, or occasioning without reference to any other occasion causing the occasion in ...

But with respect to science randomn does not always mean 'uncaused' or 'without precedence', now does it.

So the argument re chance and the structure of DNA has to be something more interesting than a simple reduction to whether some theory is right or wrong regarding evolution.

In fact there is another 'evolutionary' scientist' that I am referring to: Lamarck...

I quote Wikipedia:

"Lamarck stressed two main themes in his biological work. The first was that the environment gives rise to changes in animals. He cited examples of blindness in moles, the presence of teeth in mammals and the absence of teeth in birds as evidence of this principle. The second principle was that life was structured in an orderly manner and that many different parts of all bodies make it possible for the organic movements of animals.[25]"

The theory of evolution therefore is based on 'order'....as this scientist has observed....
 Naamah
Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 389
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/8/2009 6:07:32 PM
^^^ Thanks for sharing that research Soulmate. Much appreciated.
Darwin was pretty amazing for his time, considering what we have/know now that didn't have/know then. It's not surprising that some of his assumptions have been proven to be inaccurate. But to say his theories have been disproved is a bit of a stretch even if James Watkins thinks so....who is James Watkins? With all due respect, James Watkins is a christian writer, not a scientist...

My writing and editing have earned four Evangelical Press Association awards, a Campus Life "Book of the Year," an Amy Award (for writing in the secular press), a Christian Retailers Choice Award, plus 24 books and over two thousand articles in print. Here's more of my radical writing on world change:
• Crossing over with the cross
• Living out the Ten Commandments (Much more effective than any public display)
• Speaking with truth and grace
• Spreading the Word with wit
To my mind that automatically gives him a pre-existing agenda when it comes to interpreting scientific results, and given that he's not a scientist, he has no greater knowledge about science than the rest of us. Also, what you've quoted from is merely a blog he's written, not a recognised scientific reference. ...and I notice he's re-branded creationism as "intelligent design", a marketing spin some theists seem to be using these days in order to sell the idea afresh to the public.

So no, it doesn't overly surprise me that a staunch and actively preaching christian like James Watkins thinks dna proves creationism... I found blogs written by active atheists that claim new dna information proves the case for evolution too but I don't think their opinions are necessarily worth quoting either. I'd rather read what the scientists are saying and form my own opinions. Much as I'd love to (cos it's fun), I don't have time right now to get knee deep in google and work through what I reckon about it all myself, but a quick glance and I saw this one
http://www.sciencecentric.com/news/pda/article.php?q=08110507-junk-dna-proves-functional
which tells me that scientists are still talking evolution as they dig deeper into the secrets of dna.

EDIT:

well this thread isnt about evolution versus anything.

It is relevant to the discussion if belief in god comes down to claiming proof in either evolution or creationism, and I do really appreciate all the info you've given.
 dicey.o
Joined: 3/27/2008
Msg: 390
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/8/2009 8:57:32 PM
I remember listening to triple J once and someone asked Dr. Karl the same question.. I honestly think he said it best!

He said that if there was a god then it would be an indiscriminate god. He based his reason behind the suffering that the people and the other being on this planet go through. And I have to say he's pretty much on the money with that since indiscriminate also means thoughtlessness and lack of care.

I always been interested in this question and tend to find quite alot of media to read/see about it, ie. The God Delusion, Zeitgeist, Religulous and Jesus Camp to name a few.

As for me.. I don't really believe in a god.. I believe that there must be something out there that is bigger than me but I refuse to put a name to it. Otherwise it's just all fantastical mumbo jumbo that people hang on to because they might have to face reality that we might be all alone in this world and frankly speaking, in a psychological manner, that might be more than a lot of people can handle. :)
 Peckoltia
Joined: 11/28/2007
Msg: 391
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/8/2009 11:45:12 PM
Simple answer...No...."Now stop worrying and enjoy your life"

Interesting article I read this week...

About 800 buses bearing the slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" set off on Britain's roads on Tuesday in an atheist campaign responding to a set of Christian ads.

The campaign, which will also see slogans plastered across London's underground system, was paid for by more than £140,000 ($A288,000) in public donations, the British Humanist Association said.

It was the brainchild of comedy writer Ariane Sherine, 28, who objected to the Christian adverts on some London buses that carried an internet address warning that people who rejected God would spend eternity in "torment in hell".

more on the web

I think I'd happily donate...and nice to see some balanced advertising...
 Trulio
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 392
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2009 10:05:16 PM
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German theologian, who was murdered by the Nazi's, wrote that "God was a hypothesis, par excellance" for which I would add, a hypothesis of or by excellence.

Creation seems to be excellent, and as many scientists claim, nature is creation, not just created things but also the process of creation, perhaps how nature begets. Something for which C.S.Lewis would agree in his book: The Study of Words.

Bhuddists not theists or atheists, theists believe in a god, and atheists do not believe in a god.

Plato wrote that god does exist, but the only attribute of god which can be know is the attribute of the beautiful. This is the only attribute which humans can know about god: tying that into the Xtian believe, the only attribute of God therefore is Love. Love is an act, not an emotion.

I recall reading Eramus, his colloquies, and in that was a short story about a simple peasant, a dutch woman, and she was asked what was her belief. She simply stated that she had faith in God, as something good (only the good is beautiful by the way) because she was placed on this earth for only one reason, and that reason must have been for a good reason.....she was illiterate, and did want to do harm or even disbelieve that she was created and meant to be here for a good reason.

Remember William Blake: "The babe begotten in joy is born in sorrow"...woman's labour is hard, but the joy of the child is proof. The begetting does not end after labour, but continues with the child growing in many ways.....

The message related in the part about "It is easier for a child to enter heaven, than it is for a camel to thread the eye of a needle" is really good. Maybe I mixed it up a bit. Hamson, the Norweigen did mix it up, and perhaps I misquoted the original source, afterall it was some time ago. I think it was translated as "the kingdom of god"...instead of heaven. There is no reference to hades or hell anyway in the Xtian writings, except as threat. No one has proved there is an eternal hell! only short term problems: like famine, pestulence, plagues, and oppression.

chao

chao
 dimeadozen
Joined: 1/26/2008
Msg: 393
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2009 8:26:03 PM

also as this "god" created us good

I'd like to see your reference for that because my understanding is that man is not inherently good.
 b64babe
Joined: 11/14/2008
Msg: 394
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2009 10:39:34 PM
Not entirely relevant I guess but there was a news story on the box today about a group in the UK who are promoting atheism, including using some cute advertising. My fave was "Try atheism and get to sleep in on Sundays". This was on a London bus and apparently the movement has been trying to get space on Australian buses without success (is that fair?).
I don't believe in a god (obviously). I think a lot of us simply can't grasp the concept of "not being" (one of the things that sets us apart from animals) and a god, religion and an afterlife are a social way of dealing with death. I don't think there's a single culture in the world that doesn't have some kind of religion involving a god or similar and afterlife.
 daddy-day-care
Joined: 6/12/2008
Msg: 395
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simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/11/2009 5:17:51 AM

It's those posts that don't contain an argument to support the poster's own point of view about god but instead (or mostly) resort to making personal comments, assumptions, or insinuations about other posters because they mistakenly think that constitutes debate, who are the ones breaking the rules. I think the bulk of the content of message 466 falls into that category.




MSG 466

For me it wasn't untill I had reached the end of my teather and reached out, then had my own personal mirracle, so how could I not believe. before that I was a monkeys uncle and scoffed / ridculed believers.

Since that turning point I have studied many beliefs and stand firm with the bible.
And if any educated non believer wanted a non judgementle discussion I would be more than oblidged to share what i believe, but not in a open forum ae there are to many know it alls, who through in remarks for attention then run.

I "do not" attach myself to any denomanation because as much as I admire their dedication, I can biblicly argue their own beliefs.

Further as I have jumped fence a few times, hence I wont belittle myself in the above argments as its these arguments that have destroyed billions+++++ of people lives, whom ordanaryly would be great mates.

People love one enother and dont judge or feel begrudged. as it just were we are at the present and we all have room to move, unfutunetly maybe not the time.

DDC's opinion



are you for real ????? i didn't know we were here to argue, debate or have to cut and pasted proof of what we believe.

that is a choice we choose to do in a open forum and god bless those that do and there studies!!
I was pointing out that my believe is from faith, and that, that faith was found from experinces in my life that has nothing to do with what sience has tought me and it is of a spiratural nature how can some one cut and paste such things??

now if your offended and suggest i am breaking the "RULES" from my post and possibly feeling begrudged by it then maybe PM me to clarife the offence to see if i intended to upset "YOU"

have a nice day





DDC
 Faux Pa
Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 396
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/11/2009 6:04:22 AM
DDC,
I think you'll find that reference wasn't to your post.
It looks like the original Message #446 was deleted. The system re-numbers the posts after a day or two and . . dang it . . yours is now #446.
Have a look at ED's posts #454 and #455. He was actually replying to a couple of posts that no longer exist.
Also . . have a look at post # 456. She compliments the poster of # 458!

Thread clean ups can make life a little confusing.
Never fear . . I'm pretty sure your post was never in question.
 Faux Pa
Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 397
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/11/2009 6:15:20 AM
Here's a link to that Atheist bus advertising campaign in London that's mentioned above by 'b64babe' . . . currently Message #484.


The principal slogan – "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" – can already be seen on four London bus routes, and now 200 bendy buses in London and 600 across the country are to carry the advert after a fundraising drive raised more than £140,000, exceeding the original target of £5,500.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/atheist-bus-campaign-nationwide
 Naamah
Joined: 11/1/2008
Msg: 398
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/11/2009 6:26:12 AM
^^^ Oh wow I haven't been in the mood to look in here for a little while and didn't realise what had happened. FauxPa is right... DDC, it was a different post under 466 when I wrote my post. I wasn't referring to your post at all, and I am not surprised that the original post under that number got deleted because it obviously did break the rules. I can understand why you'd be upset to think I said that about your post, but ... I didn't. I regret that there has been this confusion.
 Trulio
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 399
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History
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/11/2009 7:37:41 PM
As far as I am concerned, if there is a definition of God, it is one that ultimately everyone agrees on. As I recall no human can know God. So the existence of God does not require faith at all. if God does exist.

I prefer Plotinus' definition, and Aristotles, which uses deductive proofs supported by sciences ( and even observations) such as physics, and mathematics.

Descartes did prove a proof, but in addition proved another 'more important proof' also using mathematics. The one I like is his 'clear and distinct idea' ....in which he essentially proved that if there is one clear and distinct idea, the Cogito ergo sum was correct.

That clear and distinct idea is quite simple. He wrote that if the logical proofs of mathematics always hold, then that constitutes a 'clear and distinct' idea. To be (sum) requires the 'cogito' which is thinking. Mathematics is a form of 'symbolic intuition' which is unique. Mathematics does not involve any representations derived from the senses, or experience. That is why mathematics is a universal form of knowledge, and it is the same at any time in modern history.

As far as I know there are no inductive proofs, based on scientific reasoning, which define the existence of God. Therefore all the subjective proofs for the existence of God cannot be supported by science, or scientific method. Many of the Xtian sects and others argue that faith is all that is needed in order to prove the existence of God.

However, there is no proof that human life is immortal, or that there is a soul that lives for eternity, or that there is a moral agent in the universe that punishes wrong doers with eternal death.

Since mathematics, therefore, can be stated as providing a proof of at least 'the clear and distinct' idea, it is suggested that there must be another idea relating to the 'order' of the universe, which is also ideational. There was a philosopher, Bradley, who actually determined that there is really only one idea that has any 'real' existence, and that idea is the 'the idea of the whole'....This idea is both supported by science and by subjective faith, or experience.

Do I or you know anyone who suggests that there is no 'wholeness' anywhere?

In order for their to be a moral order, or an immortal soul, or even the existence of the universe, there has to be a 'whole'...meaning not simply many individual, and disconnected entities.

Personally I neither believe in the existence of a God, nor disbelieve in the existence of a God. I have lots of faith though that mathematical laws comprise a 'clear and distinct idea'....

I think the only real question therefore is what is the definition of God......not simply what are the attributes of God.

The funny thing too is that the laws of Mathematics does not require faith or belief, and that is one subject which does provide the basis of the clear and distinct idea.

If we cannot agree on the laws, then we cannot agree on anything else. The laws of associability, of commutativity, et cetera, all the way up to vector calculus are false, and require belief or faith, then war, chaos, and much more malaise is equally likely in the future.

I could extend this argument to forms of informal logic as demonstrated in written and spoken languages too.....when language uses denotation, connotation and significance (even very young children can communicate in their parents tonque)....Why is faith required? to believe in something so simple and basic?

Of course some neolithic cultures did not possess symbolic intutions about maths, but they did have other symbolic forms (eg. Cassirer, Philosophy of Symbolic Forms),

and unfortunately we seem to still be dependent upon forms of 'inferential wisdom' which mathematics is. That is to say, that since Descartes relies on the laws of mathematics, which is largely inferential, in a deductive way, to show that there is at least one 'clear and distinct idea', there must only be one idea which has any reality.

The fundamental definition of a real idea (oxymoron), that despite an idea having no reality, there still must be one idea with reality. This is shown by Aristotle and laterly by Kant in there definition of the categories. Kant called these the 'categories of reasoning', and each of them consists in a 'unity'. For instance he wrote that one category of the understanding consisted in the 'unity of identity and difference'....similar to the Medieval belief in the 'contradiction of opposites', and in the flesh these would the union of differences (male/female, light/darkness, fire/water, et cetera)

chao
 ~luvUlongtime~
Joined: 5/9/2008
Msg: 400
simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/11/2009 8:13:12 PM
I am still waiting for proof that God believes in Me. After that, I will consider the OP's question at great length.....
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