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 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 96
Bush states the Northwest Passage is InternationalPage 6 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I'm not a fan of the current President, but it's got nothing to do with him. This has been the long standing position of the US and no matter who wins the next election it isn't likely to change. There's plenty to beat up Bush about; this isn't one of those things.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/5/2007 1:14:14 PM
Canadians can say it's ours all we want, but that's kind of like that other retarded arguement that we go thru it and that's that. Hopefuly politcians are put in power to discuss things more rationally than 3 year olds.
Kind of like the neighbour being mad as hell and stomping their feet as they leave in disgust. Or a baby being denied his baby rattle. Canadians may not like it, but there's more than just the US contesting the validity of the claim, regardless of where some folks might eventually find Alaska on a map.
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name me ONE.....just one other waterway surrounded by one country to the left and right,...
ANYWHERE on the planet ,...that is considered international water,....

just because Canada has been very good about who can pass doesn't mean anything when it comes to ownership,....sorry but it just doesn't,....

it is globally accepted that any body of water more than 200 nauticle miles from land is considered international water,....

which if any part of the Passage is more than 200 nauticle miles from our land?

if you can find any of the passage that quallifies under the above globally accepted defination,....if you can't,...then what exactly is the debate about again?

and the debate is based on what,...some obscure new rule only the US knows about?


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With an assumption of continued melting of the Arctic shield and the northern icecaps, this subject will become something that will definitely need ironing out as ithe Northwest passage as per where it presntly sits on anyone's map, will eventually become a major shipping lane. What will also really need to be reconciled is if it is determined to be international waters,

Perhaps when there has been enough melting to open up a pssage on the other side of the islands then and providing the opening is more than the 200 nauticle miles from those islands,...there will bean actuall international passage,....as for where it currently is it's in Canadian INTERNAL waters,....


as for,....what ramifications will come from future mineral, fishery and possible oil rights????

now we are getting t the real reson's for the debate,....how much can be raped out from under us,.....

The grand banks should be a perfect example,.....and ask Africa about the mineral part,...
 slysterling
Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 99
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/5/2007 3:22:52 PM
^^^Thanks for sharing all that. I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere.
back on Topic:

it is globally accepted that any body of water more than 200 nauticle miles from land is considered international water
which if any part of the Passage is more than 200 nauticle miles from our land?

You've maybe missed the boat here on this international water thing. Sorry for the pun, but this whole thing has little to do with "international waters" from the Canadians arguments point of view. When it comes to right of passage, Canada is making the claim that the Northwest Passage is "internal" to the lands of Canda. Internal waters are defined as :

A nation's internal waters covers all water and waterways on the landward side of the baseline from which a nation's territorial waters is defined. It includes watersways such as rivers and canals, and sometimes the water within small bays. Foreign vessels have no right of passage within internal waters. The lack of right to innocent passage is the key difference between internal waters and territorial waters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_waters

So now you want to know what the baseline is:

A baseline is the line from which the seaward limits of a State's territorial sea and certain other maritime zones of jurisdiction are measured. Normally, a sea baseline follows the low-water line (lowest astronomical tide) of a coastal State. When the coastline is deeply indented, has fringing islands or is highly unstable, straight baselines may be used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseline_%28sea%29

Again we see the use of the term territorial waters, soooo:

Territorial waters, or a territorial sea, is a belt of coastal waters extending at most twelve nautical miles (but possibly less, at the coastal country's discretion) from the mean low water mark of a littoral state that is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, except that foreign ships (both military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it.

A sovereign state has complete jurisdiction over internal waters, where not even innocent passage is allowed. Territorial waters extend up to 12 nautical miles (22 km) from the mean low water mark adjacent to land, or from internal waters, as per the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters
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United nations Convention on the Law of the Sea:
PART II
TERRITORIAL SEA AND CONTIGUOUS ZONE
SECTION 2. LIMITS OF THE TERRITORIAL SEA

Article 3
Breadth of the territorial sea
Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.

Article 4
Outer limit of the territorial sea
The outer limit of the territorial sea is the line every point of which is at a distance from the nearest point of the baseline equal to the breadth of the territorial sea.

Article5
Normal baseline
Except where otherwise provided in this Convention, the normal baseline for measuring the breadth of the territorial sea is the low-water line along the coast as marked on large-scale charts officially recognized by the coastal State.

Article 15
Delimitation of the territorial sea between States
with opposite or adjacent coasts

Where the coasts of two States are opposite or adjacent to each other, neither of the two States is entitled, failing agreement between them to the contrary, to extend its territorial sea beyond the median line every point of which is equidistant from the nearest points on the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial seas of each of the two States is measured. The above provision does not apply, however, where it is necessary by reason of historic title or other special circumstances to delimit the territorial seas of the two States in a way which is at variance therewith.



SECTION 3. INNOCENT PASSAGE IN THE TERRITORIAL SEA
SUBSECTION A. RULES APPLICABLE TO ALL SHIPS
Article17
Right of innocent passage
Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.

Article 18
Meaning of passage
1. Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose of:
(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or
(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.

2. Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.

Article 19
Meaning of innocent passage
1. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law.

2. Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities:
(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;

(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;
(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;
(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;
(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;
(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;
(h) any act of wilful and serious pollution contrary to this Convention;
i) any fishing activities;
(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;
(k) any act aimed at interfering with any systems of communication or any other facilities or installations of the coastal State;
(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

Article 20
Submarines and other underwater vehicles
In the territorial sea, submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag.

Article 24
Duties of the coastal State
1. The coastal State shall not hamper the innocent passage of foreign ships through the territorial sea except in accordance with this Convention. In particular, in the application of this Convention or of any laws or regulations adopted in conformity with this Convention, the coastal State shall not:

(a) impose requirements on foreign ships which have the practical effect of denying or impairing the right of innocent passage; or
(b) discriminate in form or in fact against the ships of any State or against ships carrying cargoes to, from or on behalf of any State.

2. The coastal State shall give appropriate publicity to any danger to navigation, of which it has knowledge, within its territorial sea.

Article26
Charges which may be levied upon foreign ships
1. No charge may be levied upon foreign ships by reason only of their passage through the territorial sea.

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm

2. Charges may be levied upon a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea as payment only for specific services rendered to the ship. These charges shall be levied without discrimination.
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm

So,unless Canada can prove the Northwest passage is inland waters, it's next best claim has to be territorial waters. If it's deemed to be territorial waters, then international right of passage comes along with it. Even if it's contiguous (24 miles), an exclusive economic zone (200 miles) or the continental shelf rule, it still must allow passage by the conventions of the sea. Besides the Baltic Sea is one good example where whoever seems to be the power in Europe at the time claims sovereignty over the Baltic. And all the switching of hands on that one goes all the way back to the days of the Romans.


name me ONE.....just one other waterway surrounded by one country to the left and right,...
ANYWHERE on the planet ,...that is considered international water


Conflicts still occur whenever a coastal nation claims an entire gulf as its territorial waters while other nations only recognize the more restrictive definitions of the UN convention. Two recent conflicts occurred in the Gulf of Sidra where Libya has claimed the entire gulf as its territorial waters and the U.S. has twice violently enforced freedom of navigation rights (Gulf of Sidra incident (1981), Gulf of Sidra incident (1989)).

there's quite a few more here if you want to link to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

Anyways, if i go to Transport Canda's own website and see what they're claiming as ours; inland waters is not encompassed thru the Northwest Passage. If anything it would seem to fall into the Arctic waters category;

Arctic waters" means the waters adjacent to the mainland and islands of the Canadian arctic within the area enclosed by the sixtieth parallel of north latitude, the one hundred and forty-first meridian of west longitude and a line measured seaward from the nearest Canadian land a distance of one hundred nautical miles, except that in the area between the islands of the Canadian arctic and Greenland, where the line of equidistance between the islands of the Canadian arctic and Greenland is less than one hundred nautical miles from the nearest Canadian land, that line shall be substituted for the line measured seaward one hundred nautical miles from the nearest Canadian land;

"Canadian inland waters" means all the rivers, lakes and other navigable fresh waters within Canada and includes the St. Lawrence River as far seaward as a straight line drawnfrom Cap des Rosiers to West Point Anticosti Island, andfrom Anticosti Island to the north shore of the St. Lawrence River along the meridian of longitude sixty-three degrees west;
"Canadian internal waters" consist of the waters on the landward side of the baselines of the territorial sea of Canada, and include areas such as Juan de Fuca Strait, Strait of Georgia, Queen Charlotte Sound, Hecate Strait, the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Bay of Fundy...
..."waters under Canadian jurisdiction" includes Canadian inland waters, Canadian internal waters, as defined above, as well as the territorial sea of Canada and Canada’s exclusive economic zone as set out in the Oceans Act.

So transport canada may want to amend their website since it clearly doesn't help the governments arguement any that it's inland waters up in the North when its own department isn't on the same page with them..
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So as if this post isn't long enough already. Remember when we mentioned adults stomping their feet like 3 year olds. Seems we can do it with the best of them as well:

Northwest Passage gets political name change
'Internal Waters' hoped to bolsters Canada's case

Nathan VanderKlippe, CanWest News Service
Published: Sunday, April 09, 2006

RESOLUTE BAY, Nunavut - It's one of the most celebrated and mythic areas on the Arctic map, but in the parlance of the Canadian military the Northwest Passage is no more.

"We're calling it the Canadian Internal Waters now," says Lt.-Col. Drew Artus, the chief of staff for Joint Task Force North, whose mandate includes protecting Canadian sovereignty over the vast area north of the 60th parallel.

"That's the guidance that we received. ... Sovereignty and the security of Canada and Canada's lands are important to (the government), and I guess that's part of their mandate to exercise authority, if you will, over what they believe is theirs."
Canada is at odds with much of the world over the status of the fabled waters that form the northern route between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

Basing its claim partly on the fact that Inuit have lived on the waters, when iced, since time immemorial, Canada says the passage is an internal strait.

Most major maritime powers call it an international passageway
...Michael Byers, a University of British Columbia professor who holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law, called the name change "cute and imaginative."

"But it would be like deciding that we're not going to call the United States the United States because we have a dispute over softwood lumber. It has no real significance apart from (showing) the seriousness of your position."

...recent research suggests that as the ice pack retreats from the western mouth of the passage it could become ice-free and open to shipping as soon as 2015.

The real problem confronting Canada, says Byers, is that the country remains unprepared to defend the passage against incursions by rogue vessels which, if allowed to cross through unopposed, could destroy the internal-waters claim.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=6d4815ac-4fdb-4cf3-a8a6-4225a8bd08df&k=73925&p=2
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Maybe I'm wrong, but this whole story has little to do with the 200 mile limit. it has to do with Canada claiming the Northwest Passage is inland water, like say, the Bay of Fundy or Lake Simcoe.

Hopefully we can bring the ship to shore on this icy subject...lol
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 100
view profile
History
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/5/2007 3:33:38 PM
TORONTO -- A long-standing legal wrangle between the United States and Canada could complicate future shipping through the Arctic as global warming melts the ice in the Northwest Passage.

The United States contends that the Northwest Passage, though owned by Canada, is an international strait with free passage for all, like other straits around the world. U.S. officials say they are following a long-standing position in favor of keeping straits free to all navigation and want unimpeded movement of U.S. ships.

Canada counters that it has sole jurisdiction over the Northwest Passage and wants to enforce its own laws on ships in the Arctic waters. Canadian officials argue that their authority over the myriad channels and straits that make up the legendary route from the Atlantic to the Pacific is the best way to minimize unsafe ships and accidental spills in the pristine North.

The issue has suddenly come alive because climate change is reducing the Arctic ice pack that prevents regular shipping through the passage.

In an unusual twist last week, the former U.S. ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci, was quoted in Canadian newspapers as saying that he agreed with the Canadian position. "It is in the security interests of the United States that it be under the control of Canada," he said at a conference in Ottawa.

Cellucci's comments prompted the current U.S. ambassador, David Wilkins, to restate U.S. insistence that the Northwest Passage is an international strait.

The spat has flared occasionally in the past. Canadians were incensed when Americans drove the reinforced oil tanker Manhattan through the Northwest Passage in 1969, followed by the icebreaker Polar Sea in 1985, both without asking for Canadian permission.

Usually, however, the two countries have ignored their differences, agreeing that icebreakers do not need permission to pass and refusing to acknowledge the regular traffic of undersea nuclear submarines that use the passage.

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The United States contends that the Northwest Passage, though owned by Canada, is an international strait with free passage for all, like other straits around the world.

what other straights????

and how can it be both owned by Canada while being international water,...

The biggest concern is an oil spill in places more pristine and harder to reach than Alaska's Prince William Sound, an area only now recovering from the 11 million gallons of oil spilled by the Exxon Valdez in 1989

The person whose phone will ring in the middle of the night if there is such a spill is Earl Badaloo, Nunavut's director of environmental protection services. He's worried enough about it that he keeps track of what he calls "the incidents" -- recent crossings of the passage by ships.

"Five vessels went through in 2000; only two requested permission," he said, quickly scrolling through a list on the computer in his office in Iqaluit.

Although Canada has stringent shipping rules for its northern waters, compliance is voluntary.

In 1996, the tourist vessel Hanseatic ran aground on a sandbar in the passage. The weather was good, those aboard were evacuated safely and very little fuel leaked into the passage. Many fear the next grounding may not end so happily.

"When you're dealing with land all over the bloody place and tons of icebergs floating around you, you make one mistake or your boat's a rust bucket, and you're going to have oil and toxins all over the place," Badaloo said. "It would be really, really messy."

Considering the American's recent record of how quickly they have cleaned up the city of New Orleans,...where there are places that to date have not been touched or even cleaned never mind restored, two years after the event,...I wouldn't want to test them in our great white north,...

http://www.socc.ca/news_s/socc/2003/jan/19.html
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 102
view profile
History
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/5/2007 5:32:45 PM
so let me get this straight,...they planted this story in 2003,...and 2005 in anticipation for Harper's announcement??????,....your kidding,...right????

That's pretty good planning,....NO,...that's damn,...good,....

we own the truth,....now that's funny,....
we don't own anything until we fiht for it,..including the truth,...
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 103
view profile
History
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/5/2007 7:07:40 PM

Arctic waters" means the waters adjacent to the mainland and islands ...

This section indicates that the NWP is considered Arctic waters...good so far.

"Canadian internal waters" consist of the waters on the landward side of the baselines of the territorial sea of Canada, and include areas such as Juan de Fuca Strait, Strait of Georgia, Queen Charlotte Sound, Hecate Strait, the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Bay of Fundy...

This description clearly ALSO includes the NWP, even though it's not a specifically mentioned example

..."waters under Canadian jurisdiction" includes Canadian inland ...

And this section clearly indicates that more than one category may apply [with the implication that the more restrictive definition applies whenever appropriate].

since it clearly doesn't help the governments arguement any that it's inland waters up in the North when its own department isn't on the same page with them..

And this is erroneous. The term was internal, not inland, and by the information presented above, Transport Canada is actually in complete agreement. Note that the Strait of Juan de Fuca, Georgia Strait, etc - are all marine waters between Canadian islands and the Canadian mainland.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 106
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/6/2007 12:56:35 AM

Ah yes, more crying about bush. Cry Cry- shed those tears


I think in this case it's more laughing. It is sad that he called Africa a nation, even if it doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand, and geography and foreign affairs have never been a Bush strong point. In fact the only thing he seems to be good at is getting suckers to vote for him.

Hell, Bush saying something probably makes it statistically less likely to be true.
 slysterling
Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 107
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/6/2007 9:14:33 AM
^^^you can maybe even shorten up that 50 years to perhaps 5 years...

Transport Canada is actually in complete agreement

Thanks for pointing that out frogo.
If we go back to the days leading up to the big Y2K scare, and then think about how short that time frame is; i.e some 7 and a half years ago, then if the latest global warming predictions are close to being accurate, then the Canucks would do well to have this situation rectified, or cleared up. or clearly defined forthwith. 2010, 2012, and 2015 is not far away, and most analysyt are predicting now that the Passage will be easily passable by 2010. It apparently already is passable now.
As Harper has mentioned:"Use it or lose it"

Canada will buy at least six patrol ships to assert its sovereignty claim in the Arctic, but Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Monday backed away from an election pledge for navy icebreakers that would ply the waters of the Northwest Passage all year round.

Canada's claim over the Arctic Northwest Passage that links the Atlantic and Pacific oceans is disputed by countries, including the United States, that consider much of the region to be international waters.
Echoing language he used in the 2006 federal election campaign, Harper said Canada needed to assert its claim in the face of increased international interest in the area because of resource development and global warming.

"Either we use it or we lose it. Make no mistake about it, this national government intends to use it," he told a ceremony in Esquimalt, British Columbia, home port to Canada's Pacific navy fleet.
Global warming has become a factor in the debate, because less ice in the Northwest Passage would make it more attractive for shipping.

Harper's Conservatives had campaigned on promised to build three troop-carrying ice breakers and a deep sea docking facility and to install equipment to detect foreign ships and submarines passing through the region.
But Monday's announcement called for six to eight patrol ships at a cost of C$3.1 billion. The ships will built in Canada and are expected to enter operation in 2013 or 2014.

Harper said the government still intends to build a deep water port in the Arctic, but is not ready yet to say where it will be built and when

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN0929956620070709
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The history behind waters like the Baltic, the Turkish straits, the Panama canal, the Persian Gulf etc. suggest that if Canada wants to stick to the story that it's ours, we may well be called upon to back that up with more than just name changes to parcels of land.

In as little as 5 years this area could well become a major league shipping lane. Right now we don't even have Search and Rescue capabilities set up in the area.


Navigable Arctic prompts territorial claims
By Barry Brown
September 4, 2007
TORONTO — A warm summer has produced a record melt of the polar ice cap, leaving the Northwest Passage clear enough for a sailboat to pass and prompting nations of the far north to assert claims over the Arctic Ocean seabed.

"The entire length of the Northwest Passage is navigable," said Trudy Wohlleben, senior ice forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service, a government agency.
Ice usually blocks at least some parts of the passage, she said. "This melt is unprecedented, and it"s speeding up."

The development threatens to accelerate long-frozen conflicts over security, sovereignty, environmental and economic conflicts among four powers with claims over the Arctic: the U.S., Canada, Denmark and Russia.

Russia said yesterday that 12 of its strategic bomber planes had begun a two-day exercise over the north of the country that was to include the firing of cruise missiles, the air force said.
All four Arctic powers have publicized their presence in the region this summer, the most dramatic being the planting of the Russian flag under the North Pole by a miniature submarine.

Beneath the Arctic Ocean floor are potentially vast resources, and Canada and the United States have a long-standing dispute over rights to the Northwest Passage, which joins the Atlantic and Pacific.
Mark Serreze, senior research scientist with the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center at the University of Colorado, said all records for low levels of Arctic sea ice were shattered by mid-August.
"The Arctic is on a fast track of change, and the Arctic sea ice is on a death spiral. Both are moving faster than any of our previous models were telling us. We still don't understand what's happening up there," he said.

Robert Huebert, associate director of the Canadian Center for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, calls the trend troubling.
Canada's claim of sovereign control over water passage rights through its Arctic archipelago has been disputed by U.S. officials who consider it "international waters."
"Off the record, American officials understand from a security, alliance, partnership, historical perspective it would make imminent sense to work out some kind of understanding of Canadian control" over the Northwest Passage, he said.

But that would be seen as "backing down" to Canada and prompt other nations with coastlines that the U.S. considers strategic — such as Indonesia and Spain — to demand the same right.
In effect, the U.S. position allows any "North Korean or Chinese ship to sail through North American waters without asking anyone's permission. From a national security perspective, that's a mad policy," Mr. Huebert said.
Yet because of U.S. pressure on this point, Canada doesn't force ships entering Canadian waters to notify Canadian authorities.
"It's like asking speeders on a highway to report themselves," Mr. Huebert said.

Canada and the U.S. lag behind Russia in asserting northern control. This year, Russia commissioned the world's only nuclear-powered icebreaker, and while Canadian and American icebreakers can reach the North Pole in summer, the Russian ship can get there "any time it wants," Mr. Huebert said.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070904/FOREIGN/109040056&SearchID=73292444796018&template=nextpage
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 109
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/6/2007 9:43:28 PM

You may laugh. But most others are in tears.


I would cry if he was my president.

Sometimes he does make me feel like screaming though.
 wannamessaround
Joined: 6/28/2007
Msg: 110
Bush states the Northwest Passage is International
Posted: 9/8/2007 5:46:45 AM
Logic is not being used by most of you in this forum. Everyone will most likely use the passage. Whether you dislike it or like it. You really don't have to go into the geological where abouts it is or what ever claims there MAY be to it by any country....just use your logic and you may realize that eventually zillions of ships from other countries will use it...No matter who lays claim to it
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