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 xodara
Joined: 10/7/2006
Msg: 251
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopathPage 11 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

If a psycho witnessed a fatal car accident where one person died and one lived, they might closely watch how the survivor reacts to seeing their friend/family member die. In case the psycho loses someone close to them one day, it'll be useful to know how they should look to make it appear that they're all torn up about it.

My ex used to do that. He'd watch people closely to see how they react to certain situations, then he'd react the exact same way when the opportunity arose.

While discussing his cruelty with his exwife, we learned that he took her reactions to certain situations and used them with me.

He once told me I was good for him because I teach him how to act in public in certain social situations.

Oxdrover,
I'm so sorry about your son and father.
 Dr.Strange
Joined: 3/6/2007
Msg: 252
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 11:39:40 AM
to comment on Saddam Huessien being a psychopath, he wasn't, he actually had alzheimers disease which as we all know can result in bizzare behaviors, his sond started to run things so if you want to call him psycho, its his sons!!!


Sorry but... any one who raises statues of themselves and calls himself a god in my book is a psychopath
 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 253
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 3:12:30 PM
Xodara, thanks for your empathy in the matter, it has caused me untold grief in the past, but "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and I think that ultimately, dealing with my father for a couple of years while I was a young adult and working for him gave me some insight later into dealing with my son. "Losing" a relationship with my father was not the horrible thing it could have been, because I did have a wonderful, loving step father and had grown up in a home free of anger and violence. "Losing" my hopes and dreams for my very gifted and talented son was another matter entirely. However, again "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and it actually led me into the mental health part of health care. It helped me work through the grief and the losses and see the WHYS.

Many parents who give birth to these children, or adopt them, wonder if there is something that "they did" to make the child this way. In the past, a newborn infant was considered by mental health professionals as a "blank slate" and it was assumed that if you were the parent of Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy it was becasue you were a poor parent. At least we have gotten past that point now and are not blaming sociopaths on their childhood.

A criminal can be "taught" to be a criminal or abused and made angry enough to hurt people, but a sociopath is BORN in my humble opinion. The only thing environment can give him/her is to either "socialize" them to become President of the US or CEO of a major corporation, or an officer in t he military, or a police officer instead of Charlie Manson. Some take to the socializatin and live in our society, not crossing the laws and going to jail, but devestating lives as they go, and leaving crushed individuals in their wake.

There are times that since his imprisonment my son has gotten so SLICK that he ALMOST convinces me that he has "found Jesus" and made a turn around, but then it won't be long until just for a second he lets the "mask of sanity" drop and I can see that he is just getting slicker. The CONTRADICTIONS in what they say and do is a big TIP OFF. On my last visit with my son, we were discussing some things about settling his dad's estate, etc. and several people who had tried (unsuccessfully) to take advantage of me (not family, but friends). He had been talking to me about my hurt and anger concerning these people and all about "forgiveness, and what woujld Jesus have done" and on and on, he sounded like a ministerial counselor. SOOOOO sincere.
Then not long after this we were talking about a "friend" of my husbands who had actually stolen some things that belonged to my husband--my son dropped the mask for a minute and looked at me through "Charlie Manson eyes" and said, "You tell that SOB if he doesn't get that stuff right back to y ou, I will have one of my friends come up there and cut his balls off, and you better believe I can do it."

The contradiction was so ABRUPT and he didn't have any idea that the two didn't mesh. Then shortly thereafter he went back to talking about forgiveness. That is one of the things Dr. Hare talks about in some of his books, about the fact they know the WORDS but not the TUNE. One example is a mother who says "Of course I love my kids" but doesn't feed them, she can't equate "love" with caregiving behavior"

When I came home after that visit, I made up my mind that just in case I were to die before he comes up for parole again in 4 years, I want my voice to be heard at that hearing. I think that because I am his mother, they might listen to me. I have written a letter and made a video, and let enough money earmarked for that purpose to hire an attorney to present this to the parole board. He has a 100% chance of going back to prison again anyway. Since he was 17 he has spent a total of 5 months outside of prison, he is "into firearms" and stole his first gun at age 15 from his grandfather, stole one at 16 from a customer of our business, and stole at least one more (which he used to kill the girl) He has partcipated in home invasion robberies where people were held and terrorized at gun point and committed murder in cold blood. If I am alive, I will be there in person. It isn't about hating my son, I don't hate him, I just recognize that he is violent and will not change. Occasionally sociopaths calm down when they reach upper middle age and become less violent. Not complete or healthy people, but at least safe to live in the community as far as criminal behavior is concerned, but I have no hope that he will be among them.

I have great empathy for all the other people who are married to them, give birth to them, were given birth by them..those people CAN be helped. Education is the key to helping them to get out of the relationships and stay out of the relationships. RUN like hell.
 lotacus
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 254
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 3:12:35 PM
Please people, lets not combine sociopath and psychopath as one entity. They are both totally different mental disorders. I hate seeing references to 'sociopath/psychopath' as if they were inter-related in some way. When I see someone use this as such, my only conclusion(s) is that they have either been mis-informed, mis-educated, or do not know exactly what disorder a given person has so they play it safe to combine the two. This can be dangerous and a properly educated person would only relate to one disorder.

I would self-diagnose myself as a sociopath but not a psychopath. Now, of course the creditbility points at me self-digonosing myself and not getting a medical opinion, but no one knows me better than I do and unless I was forced to seek help, I really don't give a sh*t and won't even bother with it.
 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 255
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 6:46:54 PM
Definitions of socio-path, psycho-path, anti-social personality disorder, conduct disorder, and oppositional-defiant disorder depend on many things. If you are talking to professionals or lay persons. They also depend on the age of the person you are speaking about. A child who will become a psychopathic adult is labeled (before age 18) as either "conduct disorder" or "oppositionally definant."

According to The Merck Manual, 7th edition (copyright 1999) : "Antisocial personalty disorder was previously called psychopathic or sociopathic."

The use of socio/psycho path interchangably when speaking to lay people is quite correct. There are some professionals that will put a little bit of different spin on them, but for most practical purposes they will suit. Keeping in mind that there are levels of these disorders from BAD to VERRRRY bad.

I don't know by what criteria you are "self diagnosing" yourself as a sociopath, but not a psychopath, but please remember the old adage "A lawyer who h as himself for a client, has a fool for a client"--the same goes for physicians and clinicians. Self diagnosis is seldom accurate.

If you are truly sociopathic, I feel for both you and those people that you associate with. (and yes, I am a retired mental health professional.)
 Dr.Strange
Joined: 3/6/2007
Msg: 256
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 6:56:58 PM
^^^Great Post thank you...very educational


<div class="quote">I don't know by what criteria you are "self diagnosing" yourself as a sociopath, but not a psychopath, but please remember the old adage "A lawyer who h as himself for a client, has a fool for a client"--the same goes for physicians and clinicians. Self diagnosis is seldom accurate.

that line of thinking came up for me also.......


the people conducting the studies to what makes a sociopath or psychopath is still under debate and have not come to a conclusion


Well I'm no sociopath..lol..but it looks pretty straight forward for Me.
 lotacus
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 257
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 7:03:39 PM
hehe. sorry, but your post was funny.

1. I don't associate with anyone. I guess you missed that trait in your studies.

2. I am not looking for any pitty or sympathy, I just don't care. (I guess you missed that trait as well).


The fact being, every single one of you get your information from books and those sources of information come from books as well. As I read in this forum, the people conducting the studies to what makes a sociopath or psychopath is still under debate and have not come to a conclusion. What does that tell you? It tells me that they are trying to understand it's nature and anything they have come to publish is only done so to satisfy their understanding, much like how a doctor will make up some fake name to diagnose a patient to fit it's purpose or his/her understanding of what is going on.

If a person truly wants to understand a disorder, they are just going to have to have it themselves.

ok, fine yea, in order to diagnose myself, I would need a source to compare myself with, granted. However, my sources are updated not from some teachings from 1999. I also don't claim to be any given profession or act accordingly while using google as a source of information to try and convince people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
is one example of someone blabbing about the disorder where definative proof or diagnosis is not present. This can be seen by how the author(s) presents the article writing with 'unknowns'. Lets not forget the references to revised content, paying special attention to the way a person is diagnosed. So the only conclusion that I can come up with is that there are different stages. There are no definits, much like herpes, though the latter is a viral infection.

Why would someone revive a 2yr old thread anyway? there should be a lifespan on these things.
 Love_on_fire
Joined: 12/31/2006
Msg: 258
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/16/2007 9:51:14 PM
The best understanding I have is that a psychopath is someone who is not all there and they are dangerous to themeselves and others and they clearly do not exhibit normal behavioural patterns thats a "normal person" does. A sociopath is someone who may seem and act "normal" and they appear to be normal and well spoken and controlled and like they have thinsg together, when inside them they are coniving, manipulative, selfish, greedy, uncaring, uncompassionate (even though they may 'appear' to show these qualities) , they are cruel minded, only thinking and care for themselves and use others for their own gain. Sociopath is just a variation of a psychopath, except a sociopath is harder to detect, because they are better at hiding their sickness and depravity.

Both can be dangerous, and both have an irregular thinking pattern.


I am sure alot of us know the characteristics of a "psychopath", -constant and irregular paranoa, unpredictable anger and overall mood swings to the extrem without warning and often very dangerous, and other characteristics.

But with a "sociopath" , the problem is that many of the characteristics they exhibit seem and in fact are like many "normal" people have. Some examples and these examples are probably of a higher degree then in "normal: people and they include, selfishness, narcissism (sp?), superficialiaty/shallowness (on an unnormally high degree), denial of wrong doing, apathy, willful ignorance, uncaring, un compassionate, extremely materialistic, manipulative, judgmental , not feeling any or very little guilt, thinking that what they beleife/think/do is right even when clearly it is not because of the harm it causes to others in any way emotional/psychological/physical, they are crule, possibly perfectionists and very clever (NOT wise-BIG difference), and thick headed at the expence of others, and many traits like these.

But they both are essentially troubled people who have defaulted from a regular path or course. The only difference is one can control and frame it better so as to appear "normal" , and the other is more easily explosive and has less control.


 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 259
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 12:26:27 PM
Living it up, Ted Bundy was a very charming person by all those that knew him socially (put up a great front of "normal") Charlie Manson, on the other hand was not so "charming" to MOST people. They were both antisocial personality disorder, which is the "newer" name for sociopath and psychopath. Early on in the useage of the names of many mental disorders or illnesses, one "term" or "label" would be used, and then as information on these syndroms (a cluster of behaivors) developed someone would try to "rename it" and the new term and the old term would be used sometimes together. PSychopath and sociopath are two names for the SAME syndrome (cluster of behaivors) the newer name is antisocial personality disorder (for adults) and in children it is called "conduct disorder" untiil they reach 18. Some children who are "bad actors" are labeled "oppositionally definant" instead of the practitioner putting the "conduct disorder" on them and labeling them for life.

The cluster of behaivors exibited by a sociopath=psychopath=antisocial personality disorder. It is the same rose by another name. It IS CONFUSING to non professionals and even some professionals.

Now, given all the different labels for the SAME THING. There are also differences in the DEGREE of each disorder. Some who only exibit mild behavior consistent with the disorder may be labeled antisocial personality disorder TRAITS. This means that they have some of the TRAITS but not enough to really hang the "label" on them.

Not all people with antisocial personality disorder (sociopath/psychopath) become serial killers. For the most part, they just have dysfunctional personal relationships with people within their circles at work, at home and in general. It is almost a given that they cannot have a functional emotional relationship with a S/O and generally leave people emotionally bleeding in their wake wondering what train hit them.

The semantics of the disorders are really a moot point. The behaviors and how to spot them early on BEFORE you get involved with them is the best defense. Years ago when I was working in a hospital that specialized in spinal cord and head injury rehabilitation, a sociopathic nurse manager was hired in a high level position. She literally destroyed the nursing department of the hospital during a critical nursing shortage and within six months all but one of the highly specialized nurses who had worked there, many for as long as 20 years, quit. There were several of us that SAW what was going on, and tried desperately to stem this outflow of critically needed specialists, but in vain! In the end, the psychopathic nurse manager was fired, her boss was fired and the corporation that owned the hospital eventually had to close it and sell the property because there were not enough available specialty nurses in the country to staff it for its specific purpose.

How many people who were spinal cord or head injured that NEEDED the very excellent and special care that this group of highly trained specialty nurses provided ended up with less than ideal results because of this one woman's venom?

In order to find something good out of this disaster, I did realize that the moving on of this many wonderfully trained professionals did spread their knowledge to a great many other places that I am sure it helped to educate more people in the medical system to an aspect of care that they had less knowledge of.

Dr. Robert Hare and others estimate that 4% of the general population are full blown psycho/sociopaths. The estimate that 20% of the incarcerated population is full blown also gives us an idea that more of them commit legal offenses that will land them in jail/prison.

Not all of them are "criminal", but they are 5 times more likely to be. Not all criminals are psycho/sociopathic, but have some other problem or personality disorder.

For the other 96% of us on the street, though I have no data or research to back me up, I would "guestimate" that with the divorce rate at 50%+ and domestic violence at a high rate, that MOST IF NOT ALL of us have encountered one at one time or another in some form that they "bit" us to one degree or another.

Since there seems to be increasing evidence that there is a high rate of inheritability to the personality disorders (all of them) and more evidence coming about as they are now recognizing the "adoptive syndrome" and are realizing that children of these people, even if raised in a loving adoptive home from birth have a VERY high chance of showing signs of personality disorders at a young age, even as low as 8. With very dangerous behavior and no willingness to conform, no matter what therapy is used.

I successfully raised a child whoo was very ADHD and he is a productive member of society and very loving. In the "wrong" home or with a less knowledgable mother he might have been a criminal. Enviornment helped him greatly. But I also raised a psychopathic son in the same loving and educated environment who has spent most of his adult life in prison for increasingly violent crimes. But I guarentee if you sat down to talk to him, he could convince you he was Jesus Christ himself. He is extremely intelligent and can quote from every religion in the world, the most sincere sounding sermons on forgiveness, etc. yet, he sits there as charming as Ted Bundy--and just as toxic.

I have no doubt about the hereditary aspect, my biological father is a full blown psycnopath with ALL the worst aspects, including murder, but he has gotten away with it, partly because he is very wealthy. But 7 ex wives will testify, and a multitude of former business partners, to say nothing of the people whoo have "gone missing" with him on trips out of the country. Sounds too bizarre to be "true"--but he isn't the worst I have heard about by far. Look at the news, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Charlie Manson, Reverend JOnes, and I am sure you can all name the names from the news, but the ones that are the WORST are the ones that will never be "caught" and executed or put in prison.
 Dr.Strange
Joined: 3/6/2007
Msg: 260
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 12:38:57 PM

Sounds too bizarre to be "true"--but he isn't the worst I have heard about by far. Look at the news, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Charlie Manson, Reverend JOnes, and I am sure you can all name the names from the news, but the ones that are the WORST are the ones that will never be "caught" and executed or put in prison.


for instance The Zodiac Killer..he taunted police with letters of blowing up school buses.
 xodara
Joined: 10/7/2006
Msg: 261
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 12:44:00 PM

Not all people with antisocial personality disorder (sociopath/psychopath) become serial killers. For the most part, they just have dysfunctional personal relationships with people within their circles at work, at home and in general. It is almost a given that they cannot have a functional emotional relationship with a S/O and generally leave people emotionally bleeding in their wake wondering what train hit them.

That was me...emotionally bleeding in my ex's wake.


The semantics of the disorders are really a moot point. ]The behaviors and how to spot them early on BEFORE you get involved with them is the best defense. Years ago when I was working in a hospital that specialized in spinal cord and head injury rehabilitation, a sociopathic nurse manager was hired in a high level position. She literally destroyed the nursing department of the hospital during a critical nursing shortage and within six months all but one of the highly specialized nurses who had worked there, many for as long as 20 years, quit. There were several of us that SAW what was going on, and tried desperately to stem this outflow of critically needed specialists, but in vain!

How do you spot the signs professionally?
 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 262
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 4:58:39 PM
MSN has a free forum, you have to join but it is free, if you google "psychopath forum" it will come up and you can get in. It is totally about psychopaths and narcissists (which are hard to distinguish, but what the label is doesn't matter, "close enough for government work." The whole thing is devoted to professional people giving advice and stories from people who have been victims. GREAT site. I read and read and read last night.

The best advice I can give is KNOW YOUR ENEMY--some are VERY slick, Ted Bundy was one of those very slick ones. Even used his charm to lure some of the women to him.

My PERSONAL "on the street" thing is that many times they will "come on strong" upon first meeting you--want to be your best friend almost immediately. If that happens, step back and watch and wait.

Look for INCONSISTENCIES in their stories. Some are slick liars but they have problems "keeping their stories straight" so watch for that, back peddling on being caught, avoiding answering a question directly.

Watch how they interact with others--are they always calling others dumb, stupid, pointing out how SUPERIOR they are to the others.

READ READ READ and learn, learn learn. It isn't an easy subject, and no "system" of spotting them is fool proof--I've been fooled, but at the FIRST detectable sign, I RUN. No matter who they are, how much I love them, etc. they get NO SECOND CHANCES. That may sound harsh, but self preservation is my goal. I only let "tried and true" people into my "ring of intimacy and trust"---I've weeded out quite a few on the telephone from POF in a couple of calls. One even only by email. He threatened me and to hurt me if I didn't let him have my home e mail address--he, after all, had given me his. His demanding my home e mail address, which hooks to my business web site would have given out more info than I was comfortable giving him, but he was more the "charlie manson" type than the Ted Bundy type who would have had patience enough to wait longer.

REad on the internet, and buy books and learn all you can, and then, most important, put it into practice.
 Dr.Strange
Joined: 3/6/2007
Msg: 263
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 5:57:37 PM

The best advice I can give is KNOW YOUR ENEMY--some are VERY slick, Ted Bundy was one of those very slick ones. Even used his charm to lure some of the women to him.


His intelligence is what made him so dangerous...he wasn't your average garden variety psychopath He had a high IQ..........
 lotacus
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 264
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 9:01:34 PM
Antisocial Personality Disorder

Diagnostic Critera

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

- There are a large number of people that have this trait. This trait is to general and vague. Think of all the laws there are that are grounds for arrest. Arresting someone is also at the discretion of the police officer.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

- again, vague and general. We all deceive one another in one form or another and to one degree or another. This ties into aliases as well, it's a way to protect our confidentiality. Take this website for example. AS with conning for personal profit or pleasure, isn't this how large corporations are formed? It's all a matter of interpretation. One can simply say that it means conning someone to give you 10.00, as an example.

3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

- vague. Everyone has impulses. I had the impulse to write my thoughts on this 'criteria' check list. POFers have the impulse to register sign in and debate issues in the forums. There is also the people in extreme cases that have the impulse and act on it in regards to murder, or robberies. However, Usually these things are planned ahead. Not so much so that they would write it down on paper, con someone into giving them the banks blueprints, hacking into their security system to disable it, but even thinking of doing it is planning. So failure to plan ahead and impulsivity cancel each other out.

4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults

- Many factors can play a role into one getting into fights. Many things such as stress, or other psychological factors can cause someone to be irritable. Heck, even being frustrated over something can make a person aggressive.

5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others

- What is reckless disregard for self? Do stunt people fall into this category? Sure some would say they are not reckless, but others would. What about those people who constantly speed? There are many reasons why the speed. That is disregarding their safety and the safety of others.

6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations

- No input at this time. It may well be the most valid one in this list.

these criterias are so general and vague that everyone will fall into this category. Not to mention and I am very sure, that the diagnoses will always be at the discreation of the doctor or whomever, and we all know how wrong doctors can be.


The individual is at least age 18 years.

- I laugh at this. I bet in china it's 16. Something magical must happen at 18.

There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

- a link to Conduct Disorder is given, yet to be scrutenized by it's validity like this list.

The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

- nothing on this because I just don't want to go and read up on those to see how they could or could not relate to antisocial personality disorder.


Need I mention that there is a separate and different criteria for the EU?



the E.U criteria

a) callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
(b) gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations;
(c) incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
(d) very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
(e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
(f) marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society.

There may also be persistent irritability as an associated feature. Conduct disorder during childhood and adolescence, though not invariably present, may further support the diagnosis.

Includes:
* amoral, antisocial, asocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personality (disorder)

Excludes:
* conduct disorders
* emotionally unstable personality disorder


So one may not have it in the U.S but travel to the E.U and you all of a sudden, with a magical wisp of an invisible wand, you have it.

I guess it depends on where you are situated economically and socially. You may have some traits established in the U.S and you may have traits in the E.U So in either country you don't have it but combined, you do. Also, it would greatly depend on how one chooses the words to describe any given criteria.

man this is such a farce.

oh, my sources
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html (American Description)
http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-pe04.html (European Description)

lets not forget yet, another persons description

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html#glib

Now, what traits do I have?

US description:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

- Hmm. There are things I do that *may* be grounds for arrest but that depends on who the potential arresting officer is, not to mention of such crimes are socially accepted. After all smoking pot is grounds for arrest but rarely happens because it's becomming more socially accepted that it has been in the past. Not to mention politics. If so many people do it, the city or whomever ends up paying more money than it's worth to arrest people.

3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

- Since I stated that these two cancel each other out, not to mention they are not sure which one defines a sociopath, I will just say this, I have times where I act on impulse and I never plan ahead. I can't see past 10 minutes. Though I did plan to write this (which means this criteria doesn't fit, but then again, I had the impulse to reply in this thread with such a long post).

6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

Now, the EU description

callous unconcern for the feelings of others;

gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations;

incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment;

- I don't know if this would also include learning from ones mistakes.

marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society.

- This is what i'm doing now by discrediting these criterias. Don't even get me started on the government, parenting, Children's Aid (services for the U.S), and my social/economic upbringing.


Mr. Doctor goes into great detail about psychopaths, but I am one to believe that Antisocial Disorder and psychopaths are not related in anyway at all, and I stand by that.


I would like to know how these people get this information because going by the traits they all list, I cannot see how a person with antisocial disorder or a psychopath would be willing enough to participate in such a study, nor give accurate information.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 265
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 10:24:39 PM
This is what i'm doing now by discrediting these criterias.

A little bit of knowledge really is a dangerous thing.

First point: Your research fails to adequately relate the actual language of the DSM-IV

On the first set of points (you listed 1-6 yet there are 7) items 1-7 are descriptive of the language in paragraph A

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

Though the specific words of the US and EU criteria are different, the meaning and intent are identical.

EU criterion 'a' and US A-5 & A-7 (and to some extent A-1 & A-3), EU 'b' and US A-1 & A-6, EU 'c' and US A-2 & A-7, EU 'd' and US A-5 & A-3, EU 'e' and US A-7, A-3 & A-1, EU 'f' and US A-7 (and to some extent A-2).

Point 2:

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

This is to distinguish Axis II adult disorders from Axis I childhood onset disorders as well as recognition that the diagnostic criteria for Conduct Disorder are not necessarily indicative of future Antisocial Personality Disorder.

There is nothing magic about it, it comes from both societal norms for adulthood, legal issues surrounding consent for treatment and age-related disgnostic criteria.

Point 3:

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

Childhood-onset and early Adolescent-onset Conduct Disorder is statisticaly related adult Antisocial Personality Disorder whereas late Adolescent-onset Conduct Disorder is directly diagnostic. There is also the diagnostic criterion that the pattern should be present since age 15.

Again, nothing inconsistent here.

Point 4:

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

Schizophrenia and mood disorders with Mania are entirely different beasts. These can actually be medically treated whereas Antisocial Personality Disorder can't.

Point 5:

Every example you use to 'illustrate' how everyone shows the symptoms of Antisocial Personality Disorder are both ludicrous and disingenuous. They appear vague only because your examples completely ignore the issue of degree and severity, both qualitative and quantitative.
 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 266
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/17/2007 11:30:52 PM
WELL SAID MUNGOJOE!

Another couple of things I'd like to say about what you said or the way the thread is turning is "If you try to teach a pig to sing, you only frustrate yourself and irrirtate the pig."

"My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with facts."

Unforunately psychology is one of those sciences which, unlike math, seems to fall into the class that a few people who read a book or two, or try to "prove" a point by showing that nothing can be "proven" (like in math 2+2=4) or that in psychology there are few absolutes, overlook the point that psychology is a study of the patterns of behavior of various disorders and illnesses along a broad range of hereditary and enviornmental differences. Doesn't mean those patterns aren't there, it just means that those patterns are that, PATTERNS, not absolutes. In every individual with every disease or disorder there are degrees and differences regardless of which disease physical or mental.

Since I have practiced in both medicine and psychology, and my first degree was in family medical practice (which by the way is about 50% psychology) I realize that the mind and body have no dicotomy. They are one.

There are some great web sites on sociopath/psychopath/antisocial personality disorder and some great books, I would recommend Dr. Robert Hare who studied them in prisons for over 25 years and has written well and understandably about this subject. Since we all have to deal with these people at one time or another, and the potential for damage from dealing with them can be grave--physically and emotionally--I would highly recommend that any person educate themselves to the potential problems in dealing with them.

We try to educate our kids and ourselves about possible sexual predators inside and outside the family, and these people are just as dangerous. Sometimes are one in the same. In the 1970s I lived in Lonoke,AR and was accquainted with Jack Walls III who was one of the worst sexual predators who did not killl his victims. Over a 20 year period this man, from a good and prominent family, molested over 1500 young boys, and eventually when one of them "told" he persuaded the young man to kill his parents. Jack also molested his own sisters boys and one of them committed suicide. Jacks father, Charles "Jack" Walls II, was and, unless he has died recently, is, one of the most upstanding and honest men in the world. He was General Patton's legal aid. I never liked Jack III and knew he was an A$$hole , but never for one moment dreamed he was a pedophile. They can be slick. But I wasn't the only one he fooled. I can only imagine how his lovely wife and two children must feel, and what hell she, they and his father went through in a town of 3,500 when all this came out.

My own psychopathic son killed a girl and is in prison, but he didn't do it in the state in which we lived, and all our friends didn't know it. The "victims" of a psychopath are not limited to the people they molest, or kill, their own family also suffers. Even the ones that are not the Charlie Mansons, Ted Bundies, or Jackie Walls III still wound those the closest to them, and make them emotionally bleed. Sometimes for years and years, with wounds that will never heal.
Thanks for your great post joe
 lucky*4you
Joined: 6/2/2006
Msg: 267
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/20/2007 7:21:51 PM
wow thats amazing:)so tell me,how was your childhood.............did you fall down alot:)
 lucky*4you
Joined: 6/2/2006
Msg: 268
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 3/20/2007 7:33:06 PM
Alot of that sounds like the people that are in Governmental positions,lol.
 FOR U
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 269
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 7/8/2007 9:50:07 AM
Excellent thread. Having been married to a sociopath all I can add is.....they are unable to give of themselves on a personal level because they have no emotions or personal needs. Being empty, the most damaging element of their personality is the inability to feel guilt because there is no conscience. That is a fact.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 270
view profile
History
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 7/19/2007 8:25:35 AM
1) Seems like a player. Well, I guess that 75% of the world is a psychopath or a sociopath.

So: if a person seems to be good to be true, then they are probably a psychopath or a sociopath.That makes sense. I've met people like that and it fits.

Mind you, all this is very possible. I one saw a film called "The Corporation". It was all about how most businesses are so selfish and money-oriented that they have the same personality as a psychopath.

I guess the same holds true for people.
 hello_kitty
Joined: 6/20/2005
Msg: 271
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History
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 8/1/2007 5:19:11 AM
Kudos to jon and the Muse for covering the most essential elements of what my best girlfriend got free of last year. Forget diagnosing; people need to be educated in order to avoid these predators and unfortunately our society blames the victim rather than to suppport and encourage these people. She's been banned for life since she inadvertantly revealed his sordid, sociopathic true nature. Having met and fell in love with this monster several years ago, he was charming, witty and sweet; very convincing facade. Over time as the violence, backstabbing, control and fits of rage took over in private, she had to make for the exit. It was a psychological war in which she was held hostage, and she also now suffers from Stockholm Syndrome and post traumatic stress disorder. Yes, machiavelli is the model for this evil, as they're always lying and manipulating behind the scenes to destroy those who expose and/or leave them, while pretending to be just as sweet as sugar ar0und people who can advance their goals and status. Families, friends and counsellors need to be supportive and nonjudgmental. My sista has been through years of indescribable hell and this site is one of the few ways that she can get the word out on these monsters and warn other people to protect them from what she'll go through for the rest of her life. If anyone hears of sees things like her profile on here~ooomaadoll, they might want to take what some people say with a grain of salt and bother to find out the truth; she's not the cause, but is trying to cope with the effect, also from other sociopaths like her sister, ex-sponsor and a few more former friends of both genders. Imagine coming back from a 4-year tour of duty and having the very people who are there to lend help and support are blaming the victim. If they want to hear tapes, hear voice mails or read years of emails to know the truth, which most people should know by her character anyway, it's all there for backup proof. Evil does thrive when good men fail to act and this town is a disgrace; find out the facts before you destroy an already mortally wounded soul, as she did nothing but ask for your support. shame 0n all of you.
 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 272
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 8/10/2007 4:28:21 PM
Kitty, you are sooooo right!

Just been through another "war" with my psychopath son--and finally "won"--but like most "winners" in "war"--I've got some terrible wounds, and the cost has been horrible. I will survive, but AT WHAT COST.

My psychopathic son's "puppet" (also professionally diagnosed as Anti-social Personality disorder--the newest name for psychopath) is in jail, on several felony charges stemming from his being a felon in possession of a fire arm, attempted murder with a fire arm, and attempted breaking and entering. Plus, my son C's wife BOUGHT THE GUNS --and she is also in jail with a felony charge as well. Good thing, too.

My psychopathic son P had all this planned out--but K, his "friend" decided to have an affair with son C's wife, and they got caught, so they just decided to hurry things up a bit and kill C before they took off with thousands of dollars they had scammed out of my confused elderly mother. I have been trying for months to get my son C to see what was going on with his brother and his brother's "friend"--but no one believed my "rantings" and "paranoid ravings"--how could "any sane person believe such a stupid story?"--MAYBE BECAUSE IT WAS TRUE???? not a chance!!! They wouldn't even look at the evidence that the private investigator I hired found to prove that K was lying, that he WAS A PEDOPHILE--their "evidence" that they had was "he said it wasn't true." DUH!

Well, now, we are working to get enough evidence to get a "conspiracy to murder" charge against my son who is in prison, and in Texas that is his THIRD STRIKE and he will NEVER GET OUT...and K will go to prison in Arkansas and I think I might be able to get his "sentences stacked" so that they are not "served at the same time" which will make him do more years. But in the meantime, they have our address, so it is move somewhere they can't find us--move from our family's home siince 1833--but at least I am alive to move, my son C is alive and my mom is alive and still has her estate intact.

But our family will never be the same again--my mother will go down to her grave in grief and pain, but the knowledge that her "beloved grandson" did this to us, to her, and that her disbelief almost caused my son C and me to lose our lives---how can that be "fixed"--??

I've spent almost $40,000 in legal fees, private investigators, etc. and wasn't able to accomplish anything, except put them on notice that I was "after them"--but in the end, they brought down their own house of cards with the "affair"---and got caught.

When I showed up at the bail hearing to give an "impact statement" to the judge, the psychopath sat over in his orange jump suit--smirking--not the least ashamed or "sorry" for anything except getting caught. Even if he got caught, he had still "won" because he got the pleasure of making my life miserable, of hurting me, of destroying my son's marriage---

But I did get the bail so high neither of them could make bail, and my DIL did decide to give the money back in exchange for a little "good will" and to sign the divorce papers without contest--and she will most likely get probation. But she will have a felony conviction, and when she does come out of jail, she will have "everything in the world she owns" on her back---so there is some justice in this world. Some vindication for us "victims---and yes, there are plenty of people that deal with these folks that are 100% INNOCENT VICTIMS. They are excellent con-men and can use you like TP and not care.

Vindication does feel nice--but I am not gloating in any sense of the word. I am just glad to be alive and kicking.
 hello_kitty
Joined: 6/20/2005
Msg: 273
view profile
History
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 8/12/2007 7:14:49 PM
hugs) to you oxdrover. it's heartbreaking to read what you've been through; it's just inconceivable and heartbreaking to read. my best friend who's been banned from these forums by her XNP and all of his lies gets a lot of support on some other sites that you've mentioned before. you can't appeal to the conscience of an np as they don't have one, no guilt no heart. however, her lawyer has now got years of his chat archives, complete medical history, emails and the tapes of every conversation they've had for over a year now, to have him arrested. sociopaths are pathological liars, master manipulators and they've got a perverse sense of entitlement/irresponsibility. the only way to hold them accountable and to stop the projection/smear campaign is to get the courts and police involved. narcissists tend to underestimate their prey sometimes and overestimate their own intellect, attractiveness, powers of persuasion, etc. par for the course as you know that they're a legend in their own minds. he became violent by last fall, smashing 2 pc's and her phone outta her hand. good thing there is so much evidence and an endless array of witnessess. it's for his own good as his fits of rage almost killed her while he was driving as well. you're so right that there's no vindication in locking them away. they hurt everyone including themselves and their families, people who loved them most. at least knowledge is power and she'll never be a naive, trusting target again~that was stolen by him. you're an inspiration oxdrover; glad that you're alive and kicking too, kitty
 OxDrover
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 274
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 8/12/2007 7:56:42 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Kitty, I don't know about "inspiration"--I do know that my "little darling" son did underestimate this "tough old bird"--yes, he is arrogant like you can't believe--and he has fooled me in the past--or rather, I LET him fool me, which is in some ways the hardest thing to admit. When you love someone it is difficult to admit that there is NO HOPE for them, and that they are literally a MONSTER.

My son qualifies in the "monster" "Hannibal Lechter" (I'm not sure of the spelling on that). catagory. Back years ago I had worked in head and spinal cord injuries, and then when my beloved step son suffered a massive head injury, I told my husband that I think that that job was "God's way of preparing me to deal with this." The time I spent working in the psych field I also think was God's way of "preparing me for dealing with my son."

Depending on which studies you read, there are from 1 to 4% of the general population that qualifiy as "certifiable" Psychopaths (Narcissists are the "nicest" form of this, but is essentially the same) all Ps are Ns, but not all Ns are Ps--

In prison, 20% of the inmate population are certifiable PPDs--and they do about 75% of the violent and repeat crime. Many people on the outside never get afoul of the law and go to jail or prison, but the wreck lives and leave a wake of emotionaly "bleeding" corpses, financially ruined people, scarred children, wrecked families, and other devestation behind.

Punishment doesn't "work"to help them clean up their act in the least, and therapy (according to a recent study) only gives them a better arsenal of weapons to work with and hones their skills as con men, and emotional fakes. Some of them are quite good at it.

If you are interested in protecting yourself, go to --the psychopath dot freeforums dot org and READ AND LEARN. That is one of the best support sites for survivors of these human vampires that I know of. MSN also has one.

About 99.9% of "abusive" spouses would qualifyt at least on the low end of the scale in these qualities, and your friend's husband qualifies. They can become quite violent when they are thwarted in their goals. It is amazing to me that so many of us "victims" allow ourselves to be abused over and over and over and over, some victims NEVER escape the clutches of these people.

There are a great many "red flags" that are generally apparent when you meet one of these people, but most ignore it and let them get their clutches on you before you even realize it. We try to be "too nice" and just like a wolf seeks out the weakest deer in the herd to focus on, these people can almost "smell" someone who is emotionally needy enough to fall for their BS--not every Jackass is an N or a P, but all Ns and Ps qualify as jackasses for sure.

A friend of mine who just "fell in love" with a guy she met on the internet, saw fairly quickly that this "princecharming" was setting her up for the "emotional kill"--no benefit to him, really, except the satisfaction of another victim on his resume.

I have met several guys on POF and other sites that I would "bet the farm" that qualified, but "picked up on" the RED FLAGS. I didn't however, pick up on those red flags when I started dating one after my husband died because I had "known" him casually for about 10 years. Many times they have a mask of "mr nice guy" to the world at large and only abuse those nearest and dearest to them. Fortunately, I got out of that relationship in only a few months, but if I hadn't eventually realized he was a P, I could have married the man and been in "hell on earth"---

Most people are basicly good people and do the best they can. We all have things that are "baggage" of one sort or another, but the "red flags" of the N and P are the "instant love" and the "too soon too fast" "sweep you off your feet" stuff that should be a red flag. They are a heady "narcotic" and lure you in with "the love affair of the century" but as soon as you are "hooked" they start to fillet you alive and throw you in the hot fire to cook.

I am just sorry that I gave birth to one, but I hope he stays in p rison for the rest of his life and if I can facilitate that, I will.
 luv to laugh
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 275
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History
characteristics of a sociopath/psychopath
Posted: 8/15/2007 8:54:56 PM
There are some good books on this subject:

"Without Conscience" by Robert Hare. He developed the psychopathy checklist used in forensic psychiatry to determine if someone is a psychopath, and "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout already mentioned in this thread.

Another book is "Snakes in Suits -When psychopaths go to work" by Babiak & Hare. It's about psychopaths in the workplace. Not all psychopaths commit violent crimes. Some of them lie their way to high places in business and could be your boss from hell. I had a boss from hell once who didn't give a sh*t about her staff and let her staff be bullied by their male co-workers and didn't do anything about it. She attacked the female staff with lies on their evaluation etc.

She finally left as she was caught in lies and got a job somewhere else and got fired from that Manager job for drinking and having sex in her office.

Psychopaths make up a small percentage of the population but people need to be aware as these are the people who will woo a lonely woman/man and then take them for all their money and leave, or the telemarketers who rook the elderly out of all their savings.

Most people are decent, but we need to be aware of those who do not have any ability to have a conscience and there is no treatment for this. Schizophrenics can be treated with antipsychotics to treat their delusions and voices but there is no treatment for psychopaths. MRI studies have shown that their brains behave differently then normal people when shown images of things that would create emotions in normal people. The areas in their brains regarding emotions do not light up on the MRI's the same.

The one's who have been convicted of vicious crimes and even white collar crimes need to be kept locked up as they will do it again when released as counselling does not work on them in prison except teach them how to fake caring and emotions to dupe other victims when they get out.
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