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 markus
Joined: 3/27/2001
Msg: 1
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Iraq - What a mess...Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Think it will get worse before it gets better?
 tikigoddess
Joined: 5/14/2004
Msg: 2
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 6:06:57 AM
I know what you mean. I live in the middle east, Saudi Arabia. I have live al-jazeera and other arab tv stations in here. I channel surf and though i do not understand what is being said the pictures in there say more than enough about how worst things have become. America had it coming for going to iraq in the first place. These people do not see a liberator in America, they see a proud colonial power extending its authority over the middle east and its oil. I supposed to them it is better to be oppressed by one of their own than an invading foreign power. The irony of the whole situation is that the factions that used to oppose eachother before now united to fight the americans. It is unlikely the iraquis will conceed. The olny solution is to leave otherwise, iraq will be another vietnam.
 tikigoddess
Joined: 5/14/2004
Msg: 3
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 10:04:05 PM
You may be correct about that one, that is, if your refering to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Iraq issue is an all two different matter. Unlike the Palestinan conflict, the Iraqui war has a solution. It is all a matter of foreign policy and an issue of respecting the sovereignty of others. The law of nations dictate that states should be equal among themselves--thus, no other country may exert it's force upon an equal. That clearly isn't the case with the Iraqui conflict. We are not even discussing a war here--we speak of an invation of a lowly mid-eastern state by a giant under the banner of an 'anti-terroristic' campaign. Saddam has been captured, bhagdad has fallen. People there have no electricity, no water or food to eat. They barely manage to live their lives the way they used to. All they want is their peace and freedom from their so called 'liberators'. It is not an issue of religion. Muslims do not hate those who do not believe in their Allah. They hate those who mock them and look down on them; those who impose on them their will and force them to change to adopt. They have their own beliefs and their own culture--what they wish to do to themselves and their country should be left to their own discression. They should not be taught how to live or run their own affairs.

The allies have fulfilled what they aimed to do in Iraq, now why are they still there? The clamor for them to leave is clear, why stay? Why force iraq to install a government subservient to the west's will when clearly this is unlikely? The answer to the Iraqui question is clear, Bush need only heed what he is adviced.
 tikigoddess
Joined: 5/14/2004
Msg: 6
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 6/12/2004 11:08:30 AM
At least with the transitional government established there is hope left for iraq. At least america should let the iraquis worry for themselves for now. No one wants to be dictated what to do in his own house. America should leave and let Iraq worry for itself afterall there are other matters more important for it to take care of.
 zaphod
Joined: 5/10/2004
Msg: 7
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 6/16/2004 2:02:07 PM
Pop quiz: Name the last American President who was NOT involved in a war.

When I say 'war' I'm including 'police actions' (or whatever the spin-doctors like to call it now) such as Vietnam. i.e. who was the last U.S. Pres. who did not send U.S. troups to invade another country.

I ask this in reply to an earlier post, which said that the Middle East is always at way anyway, so let them at it. How does the 'civilised' U.S compare?
 zaphod
Joined: 5/10/2004
Msg: 8
60%
Posted: 6/18/2004 12:26:49 PM
You have go to that far back? Many of us were still virgins that long ago! (OK, so some of us still are ;) ) Is it worrying that so many recent Presidents felt the need to go to war? Does it worry you that 60% of US presidents were involved in wars of one kind or another? (Probably not if you are from the U.S. I guess.)
 easytag
Joined: 7/15/2003
Msg: 9
Re: want the skinny on the video s ???
Posted: 6/29/2004 12:26:42 PM
birdman-

you remember world war II right? we were in germany for 8 yrs afterwards. we still have bases there. i don't remember anyone complaining about that.

we're lucky the media did not cover that war the same way they are this one.

 luu
Joined: 5/18/2004
Msg: 10
Re: IRAQ what a Mess
Posted: 6/30/2004 10:27:54 AM
Ready Reserve? That will probably be more guard duty for oil well sites. Got to quote "Ole George" on that one...."We're going to show these people how to use their natural resources" Yea we will have bases there until the oil runs out. Gosh...It might be the first police action that will turn a profit. If they could get the locals to learn how to drink and have sex maybe they might stop blowing themselves up. Works for us...LMAO
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 11
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 7/21/2004 8:02:17 PM
I think that pretty well hits it on the nail.
 dans92647
Joined: 8/18/2004
Msg: 12
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 8/18/2004 10:26:58 PM
at least ,this is limited in scale to a regional war and the administration ha snot allowed major players in like euro the way john kerry plans to do,the japanese naval fleets are based and practicing for a major invasion on the outcome of our election so as japan and south koreas bhudida armies and marines can take over fighting the way it was done in world war two.
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 13
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 8/18/2004 10:30:01 PM
Welcome to POF, dans92647
 dans92647
Joined: 8/18/2004
Msg: 14
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 8/19/2004 11:14:18 AM
IN THIS ELECTION,PROBABLY ONE OF OUR COUNTRY'S MOST SERIOUS ELECTIONS IN A LONG LONG TIME.THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE TO PUT THEMSELVES IN THE SHOES OF OUR ELECTED LEADERS AND WHAT THE OATHE OF OFFICE REALLY MEANS? IT DOES TALK ABOUT SOFTSELLING ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING YOU WOULD WANT TO HEAR OR WHAT PLEASES YOU! IT MEANS HEARING AND EXPECTING THE "TOUGH LOVE" AND FACE REALISM WITH THIS WORLD.I KNOW MOST AMERICANS OUT THERE HAVE KNOW IDEA HOW MUCH AMERICA IS REALLY HATED AROUND THE WORLD FOR VARIOUS REASONS BUT AMERICANS HAVE TO FACE THE FACT THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS NEVER EVER BEEN IN A WAR LIKE THIS ONE AND I AM TALKING ABOUT A RELIGIOUS WAR. DOWN THROUGH OUR AGES IN HISTORY IF YOU YOU JUST READ ABOUT WARS SUCH AS AS ISLAMIC VERSUS CHRISTIANS IT IS EASY TO NOTICE THAT ALL CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR THEIR SURVIVAL FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.THIS WAR IS NOT A SMALL WAR.IT IS A WAR IN IT THE BEGINNING AND REGARDLESS OF THE ELECTION IT WILL CONTINUE SO GET REAL.AMERICA CANNOT AFFORD TO BE AN ISOLATIONIST POWER AS WE NEED AS MANY COUNTRIES AS POSSIBLE TO HELP.MAYBE THE PLANS AFTER 911 WERE THAT OUR CURRENT ADMINISTRATION WOULD ONLY FIGHT THIS WAR ON A BASIC LEVEL.TO UNDERSTAND THIS MEANING IS SIMPLE.IN THE NAVAL AND ARMY WAR COLLEGE WHERE SENIOR MEMBERS IN THE ARMED FORCES KEEP UP TO A RAZORS EDGE THE WARS ARE IN FOUR CATAGORYS JUST LIKE A HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL TOURNAMENT AS WE HAVE A SECTIONALS THEN A REGIONALS THEN A MIDSTATE AND A FINAL.WELL,IF YOU TRY TO REMEMBER NEWS ABOUT ADMINISTRATIONS IN OUR NATIONS PAST IT IS EASY TO DRAW UPON THE LEVELS OF WARFARE AND HOW AMERICA CAME OUT OF EACH IN THE LONGTERM.COMMANDING THIS COUNTRY WITH A BRILLIANT STRATEGY IS NOT EASY WHEN LED BY A BRILLIANT POKER PLAYER AND CABINET WHO IS VERY LOYAL TO ALL OF US.
 sgentlemanjack
Joined: 8/4/2004
Msg: 15
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 9/23/2004 6:13:55 AM
the dumber you are and less education you have,...the more likely you are to vote for Kerry.

The average Kerry voter is no different from the socialists in Europe......you want the government to pay for this, pay for that.. pay for YOUR healthcare with other peoples money.

I understand why Europeans do it, they are cowards and afraid of Liberty.. Thats why we always have to save their asses everytime a dictator threatens them... they always run with their skirts up, crying to us...


But for an AMERICAN...in the land of LIBERTY...to want others to pay for their healthcare, or retirement....is embarresing......if you dont want the responsibilities of freedom....move to France, Cuba, or China......Hey the will give you free asprin!!!!!!!!!!!
 picpip
Joined: 9/5/2004
Msg: 16
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 9/24/2004 1:52:21 PM
At the risk of being misunderstood again, I will throw a spanner into this well oiled machine. My aim is to get some of you to see the otherside of the argument. Please I beg you. Dont agree, just see it.

Here is what I believe

1. The US is the world's only super power
2. The US reserves the right to protect itself. Unlike many other countries it has the awesome reach and power to do this.
3. The US had the right to go in after Osama bin Laden, his Alqaeda and the tyranical Taliban regime that housed them.
4. Presdient George Bush was right to pursue and execute that war.
5. President George Bush was rightly suspicious of Iraq's intentions especially since they acted suspiciously by kicking out UN inspectors time and again.
6. GWB was right to threaten the use of force if Saddam and Iraq continued to play monkey games.
7. The UN was right in unanimously passing a 15 to 0 resolution forcing saddam to comply.
8. The weapons inspectors were right to go into Iraq and on failing to find weapons of mass destruction they were right to seek assistance from countries with powerfull and well developed Spy agencies e.g CIA, FBI, MI5, etc

I hope we are all agreed upto this point. Now I know many of youtake issue with the following two points. Lets discuss them rather than hurl insults please.

9. GWB was wrong to break ranks with allies who doubted Intelligence on Iraq's capabilities and program. The current state of the conflict, albeit hindsight, is testimony to my belief.
10. GWB was wrong to invade Iraq before the UN inspectors had been given enough time to prove the existance or not of Saddam's WMD program. Again albeit with hindsight the state of affairs on the ground proves my point.

11. As a result of the Invasion of Iraq some good came to the Iraq people. Dictator saddam was removed and is now in jail awaiting overdue justice and the death sentence. Let me state it clearly, this was a good by product of the war.

12. GWB was wrong to get into Iraq with a plan to win the peace. Again here we can have debates that he could not have foreseen the turn of events. With due respect to you all in here I beg to differ. The voices of governments and other groups and individuals that cautioned against the adventure into Iraq warned about this very scenario. I would like to believe that a super power like the US has overwhelming resources to plan such a mission. Lesser rag tag armies have managed to stabilise countries with populations more fractious than Iraqs. Examples Rwanda, Yemen, Uganda, Nigeria in Liberia, Tanzania in Uganda. This lapse of judgement has led to three catastrophic scenarios.

12.a). Iraq is now unsafe for Iraqis as well
12. b) Iraq is now a breeding ground for the world's most vile terrorists. People so vile and devoid of the slightest ingredient of human decency. Let us say a prayer for the poor Iraqis and the Americans and other nationalities who have been targeted as an excuse by these less than human terrorists.
12.c) GWB diverted resources from the better defined and justified war effort aimed at tracing and eliminating the criminal infidel Osama bin Laden and his Al qaeda.

13. With all this GWB says he would do it again and the same way. Yes he sounds tough and committed but in my opinion he has exhibited poor and very very very costly judgment. I dont need to spell out the blood and treasure the US has expensed.

It is for the last point above (13) that while I give GWB credit for liberating Iraq, I am convinced his stand does not foster world peace and the struggle againt terrorism. Right now he only sounds tough but his actions have actually put the US and all its dependants in harms way. His attitude is only uniting terrorists and dividing the civilised world. I am not a Democrat but Clinton put it well when he said "Wisdom and Strength are not opposing values".

It might feel like weakness but acting to ensure that the civilized world speaks and acts as one against terrorism will actually make the world safer. The world had sympathy when 9/11 occured, but it was mainly America's wrath that was justifiably aroused. And by that horrendous act, Americans were ready to expense blood and treasure to bring terrorism to its knees. You need to realise poor Philipinos were not equally motivated. While we may curse them for heeding to the terrorists threats, let us take time to see the world from their perspective as well. We may disagree but please lets try to seek reasons for why people act in ways we dont agree with.

I hope you will debate the issues raised here in the same light.
 SoCalKick
Joined: 8/25/2004
Msg: 17
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 9/29/2004 9:12:37 PM
Well, I have read about all you and that other guys statements and you to are very smart and vivid in your beliefs. Im a Republican economics major and current a US Marine. I have done my time in Iraq and going back for a second term shortly. Ask most Marines, I didn'ta say navy, Army, or Air Force...Ask a marine on their views about Iraq and about 99% will tell you that we are doing to right thing over there. What the media says and what really goes on is two different things. You can watch the press conferences and read any report you want, but to walk through the cities over there and have children and men and women run to you crying, kissing your boots, giving you food and water that they can hardly provide for themselves. Its a obvious fact that we are doing the right thing. We are the most powerful country in the world by more than one aspect, that counrty needs help, who are we to sit back and watch them go to waste when we can do something about it. I would serve 100 terms over there if I had to. It has to be done, and we the Marines signed a paper saying were willing to do whatever it taks to do so. Keep it up you two, your probably the most honest, upfront people on here. Love reading your material.

Support your troops, we support you
 SoCalKick
Joined: 8/25/2004
Msg: 18
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 9/30/2004 1:27:49 PM
3rd batt. 4th marines Charlie company here. There will always be bloodshed everywhere in the world. Empires have been created and destroyed by war. It will never change, its a part of human nature. The thing that upsets me about people like yourself ande the other Americans that protest the conflict is that were not over there fighting for Bush, or the republicans, were over there fighting for America in general. You should be greatful that there are people like me who are willing to risk my life to fight for your freedom, so you can sleep at night without worrying about people storming your house and killing your family because you wont agree with their laws and beliefs. You were givin all these freedoms, speech, religion, rigth to bare arms. In Iraq, they are told what they can say, think, believe in, they have no choice. Then you take our freedoms that I am fighting for and use them to bad mouth the country that gives them to you. You do have your own beliefs on the current situation and thats fine, everyone does. Thats what beautiful about this counrty, you can do and say what you want and your not going to be killed for it. Thats what were are fightin for in Iraq, to let the people over there live a civil free life as we do here. You should think about all these things that you have been givin the power to do and not take them for granted. Hundreds of thoushands of men and women have givin their lives so that you can live the way you do today...FREE!!!
 SoCalKick
Joined: 8/25/2004
Msg: 19
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 10/4/2004 12:59:41 PM
What do you think would happen if nobody stepped up to the plate and we had no Army or ,military service. I have never been so proud of what I have done. If I had to do it all over again, I'd ask where do I sign. You forget about our past and our history of what made us the world economic and military leader, its our history, allied nations, and forien policy, anmd those who haev givin their lives for our freedom. And about giving praise to the police officers and fire fighters, 76% of those positions in the US are filled by prior service members. And if Bush is such a horrible President and shouldn't be sending our TROOPS to die and murder in IRAQ, then why is over 85% of our military voting for him? BECAUSE WE LOVE TO SERVE SUCH A GREAT MAN. We know hes doing the right thing. We know that as long as he is in power, our families are safe to lay down their heads at night and live without fear. You should be thankful that you have a President that uses his power to protect us, and not keep us here on bases just waiting to be attacked before we do something about it, you should be glad that he is willing to take the initiative. I sure am.
 monalisaoverdrive
Joined: 10/8/2004
Msg: 20
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 10/8/2004 11:34:50 PM
Ok.

Shooting the Iraqi resistance members does not keep America free.

Iraq has nothing to do with the United States.


You're real threats are:
---------------------------

Economic tide-turning, with China taking the lead in engineering, computers.

Saudi Arabia. Because it's going to fall to militants, and then you'll truly be ****ed. With each bomb that blows up fallujah, another 20 rich Saudi men with nothing to do are recruited for eternal Jihad/revenge against the U.S.




GWB should be getting out of the oil business completely and pushing as much money as possible into developing alternative fuel. **** oil, it's gonna disappear one day anyways.
 SoCalKick
Joined: 8/25/2004
Msg: 21
Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 10/10/2004 1:14:53 PM
Hey,
I agree that a turn in the Economic tide is a threat but its not going to happen. yes China is a economical powerhouse in the world, but being a economics major, and almost recieving my degree (only 33 units left) I know for a fact that the U.S. was able to implant our economic structure so many places outside the U.S. that our incomming revenue from international business can't be overturned, we got in early, at the beginning and wont be overan.

I am in the 3rd Marines, we are a special ops ground unit getting ready to do our second term in Iraq and I can tell you personally, not what you see or read in the supermarket tabloids, or on the news, that Saudi Arabia is not a major threat, since 1994-5 they have lost all power to wage any type of attack on the U.S. all they can do is warn us of events that wont ever happen, and believe me, if something was going happen, we, the 3rd Marines would know about it and one of 26 different teams in our division would probably be paying someone a visit...
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