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 AUTHOR
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 255
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?Page 4 of 50    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
7. "Then...LET"S DATE! LET"S DO THE STEPS TOWARD LTR!""
That is exactly where "this man" (me) scratches his head and asks, again: Is an LTR a natural evolution (the type of LTR I "defend") or a planned/manufactured one? Because it makes a LOT of difference, as in apples vs. oranges!


Exactly.

I think that in this stereotypical conflict between agendas, there are a couple of confusing themes. I say "stereotypical" because we're dealing with generalizations, and along with those generalizations come some myths that appear to get confirmed when an individual's behavior is viewed through the filters they create.

My guess is that women very much want their LTR to develop _naturally._ They want it to move along in an orderly progress from mystery and excitement to revelation and comfortable familiarity. Anything that leads to more closeness and a greater melding of dreams and aspirations is seen as progress. Anything that appears to create distance or conflict between long-term goals is seen as a reversal--so much so that in traditional values a woman would take it for granted that she should subsume her own life's mission to that of her partner.

However, here's where a bit of female chauvanism crops in, and where it starts to get ugly for men (and somewhat ugly for women too). The stereotypes about men posit that we are basically dogs. We really only want one thing, and once we get it, we're gone. Unfortunately for women, you can't have an LTR that involves sex without involving a man, and so men have to be carefully screened. Also, because men are seen as emotionally unsophisticated, when you've got a man's undivided attention then it's up to you to "help things along if necessary." What this means is that you wind up screening for a man who loves you so much that he's willing to be trained (as witnessed by his willingness to defer the gratification of sex), and who willingly submits to the training. That's what "working on the relationship" is all about.

As a practical matter, any man worth having must be managed. And of course, because life would be boring and possibly impoverished with a guy who's weak-willed, the challenge is to "capture the attention" of a virile man, one who is dynamic, powerful, and successful. Once that has been accomplished, a woman has a problem because a guy like that can go anywhere. So, the next problem is how to successively tame him to your desire--in the same way that a mustang stallion is always a great addition to a herd after it has been broken.

Within this worldview, woman's success depends on A) being able to rope in that stallion and B) the extent to which she can keep him in harness.

In the realm of games, many men have come to see this as the ultimate high-stakes game where a man's sense of autonomy is at stake. When you put that up against a woman's _disappointment,_ painful though that might be, it just doesn't seem proportionate somehow. When we knew that the women in our lives would support our own autonomy, no matter what, it was much safer for us to commit. We knew that by committing we weren't putting our life's direction up for negotiation and may the best negotiator win.

Because women do tend to be more sophisticated than men, we will, in all likelihood, consistently lose in those negotiations one way or another. We can see that putting our autonomy at risk for the sake of a committed relationship is most likely a lose-lose proposition for us, because if we yield our initiative to a woman who is not dependent on us, when we lose our direction as a result of her influence, well-intended though it may be, we're eventually going to lose her as well.

Given that what we see ourselves up against is a vast conspiracy to engage in a process that unwittingly strips us of our autonomy one way or another, with no guarantee of loyalty in return, many of us would prefer to find women we can be friends with and just have sex with them.

OK ladies, where am I reading it wrong?
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 258
view profile
History
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/22/2007 5:59:05 PM

OK ladies, where am I reading it wrong?


Ok, AceOfSpace..I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, because you are obviously intelligent, and that was a well thought response...

However, what I hear you saying (feel free to correct me...), is that men what to go back to be ing in total control of everything with no input from women? Personally, maybe I'm just not hot enough or something, but, even if I had wanted to control any past SO's, it wouldn't have happened. And I don't want to. Because, as you also point out, men who can be controlled aren't that attractive. But, what I don't want is being told what to do, when to do it, and why I'm not capable of making a good decision because I'm female, and not smart enough. Or capable.

In my eyes, a good relationship is a partnership? Not one person controlling the other. So many men seem to have been in relationships where they felt controlled or emasculated. I can't relate. So, how am I supposed to respond to these men? They think all women are the same.

And the loyalty issue...I also can't relate. I am fiercely loyal to everyone I love? I'm having so much trouble understanding men these days (not they were ever easy...lol), but, no I I'm not sure I understand why they are so against LTR's? There were always men who it wasn't their thing, but it seems the majority would much rather have FWB's.

What happened to love? Or men liking women for reasons other than sex? It's so scary out here. And to be truthful, it hurts my feelings. Every time I turn around I'm being told one way of another, that the only thing women are good for is sex. (And to stop the accusations..yes, I know not all men are like this, but it's been a big majority in my case, at least, and certainly here on the forums...). We seem to have become the evil of the world. We only want to suppress men, one way or another. Either by denying them sex, having opinions, wanting their money, .daring to be proud of the fact that we've learned to be self sufficient...the list goes on.

I don't know anymore what I can offer a man besides sex. He doesn't appear to want anything else....

I do not want to make this deal, like nick objects too, I don't want to manufacture anything, I don't want to control or deny or take ..I don't even know that I'd get married again, for that matter...

It's like a minefield out there..and there doesn't seem to be any answer?

I just want someone to love and to love me back...
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 260
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/22/2007 6:57:57 PM
Ok, AceOfSpace..I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, because you are obviously intelligent, and that was a well thought response...


Thank you, Zangie. So are you and so was yours.


However, what I hear you saying (feel free to correct me...), is that men what to go back to be ing in total control of everything with no input from women? Personally, maybe I'm just not hot enough or something, but, even if I had wanted to control any past SO's, it wouldn't have happened. And I don't want to. Because, as you also point out, men who can be controlled aren't that attractive. But, what I don't want is being told what to do, when to do it, and why I'm not capable of making a good decision because I'm female, and not smart enough. Or capable.


Well, again given the stereotyped dialogue that characterized the war between the sexes while we were growing up, I'm not surprized you'd hear it that way. BTW, it's a war that in many ways I'm glad the male establishment has for the most part lost. And sure they're going to try to co-opt whatever develops, but competitive capitalism is like that.

I'm not saying that men want to go back to being in the delusion of total control. Of course some do, but most of us want to feel like we are still in charge of our own destinies. Day to day, I don't have the time or the inclination to tell a woman who supposedly loves me what to do to please herself, let alone me. Long term, if a woman isn't pursuing her own aspirations that are sufficiently challenging to keep her growing intellectually and emotionally, I'm going to get mighty bored. I won't consider a woman for an LTR unless she's self-directed. And BTW, I know the difference between someone who is self-directed and someone who is merely willful.


In my eyes, a good relationship is a partnership? Not one person controlling the other. So many men seem to have been in relationships where they felt controlled or emasculated. I can't relate. So, how am I supposed to respond to these men? They think all women are the same.


My opinion? You might want to listen very carefully to what other women are saying to men and about men so that you understand what men are up against these days. In particular, women like daisypetals who want all the reassuances of the old rules without any of the drawbacks (e.g., the expectation that your goals will take second place), make it harder for women who value their own independence to find men who are open to the idea of being equal partners for the duration.

How do we know that you're sincere and aren't just running a gambit? I'll take your word for it because you were honest enough to post as you have, but by and large, all those entitled little princesses out there make it mighty spooky these days.


And the loyalty issue...I also can't relate. I am fiercely loyal to everyone I love? I'm having so much trouble understanding men these days (not they were ever easy...lol), but, no I I'm not sure I understand why they are so against LTR's? There were always men who it wasn't their thing, but it seems the majority would much rather have FWB's.


Well, my guess is that it would help your understanding if you listened carefully to what the men in this thread have been saying. I've been taken to the cleaner's twice. The first time I resented the hell out of it. The second time I must admit that I feel I got good value for the most part, and when I didn't it was because I didn't pay close enough attention to the signs. But on the whole, it's only money to me. I have my freedom to pursue my dream--or not. With that and friends along the way, what more do I need really?


What happened to love? Or men liking women for reasons other than sex? It's so scary out here. And to be truthful, it hurts my feelings. Every time I turn around I'm being told one way of another, that the only thing women are good for is sex. (And to stop the accusations..yes, I know not all men are like this, but it's been a big majority in my case, at least, and certainly here on the forums...). We seem to have become the evil of the world. We only want to suppress men, one way or another. Either by denying them sex, having opinions, wanting their money, .daring to be proud of the fact that we've learned to be self sufficient...the list goes on.


That's where these stereotypes get very ugly for women. I know they aren't true, because I made it a point to learn how to be friends with women despite the urgent demands of my sexual drives. However, those perceptions are out there and the more you rail against them, the more you confirm them in the minds of frightened men. For men who define their success as how much stuff they've managed to accumulate, y'all are _very_ dangerous. You simply need to appreciate the perceived danger and respond with compassion regarding the fear.

No it's not entirely fair, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

When you are dealing with men, you are dealing with frightened children. You have two choices. You can manipulate them to be your servants and they'll do that for as long as it takes for their neediness to get sated, and then you'll see them rebel. Or, you can regard them as equals and support them in coming into their own. If you do the latter, there is still no guarantee that their destinies won't take them away from you.

However, you'll know that you did right by them and so will they. And that knowledge will make the difference in who comes to you next (in the event that a man is called away from you because his life direction no longer matches yours and you don't want to give up yours). Of course, if you both get lucky or are skilled enough negotiators, you'll be able to follow the same course together without either of you having to sacrifice too much. That would be ideal.

I guess you have a third choice, and that is to submit your life's work to his when the time comes for him to make his move--to become his servant. But then he'll have to deal with your rebellion later on--not good.


I just want someone to love and to love me back...


I hear you!

Now I have another question. Daisypetals never did answer my question about what she meant by the term "attachment seed." Maybe she figured I was too dense to comprehend it. Do any of you out there have the first clue as to what she meant?
 miraclgal
Joined: 6/22/2007
Msg: 262
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:05:56 PM
lots of people have written many long long explanations........ Short version..... Not gonna happen.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 264
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:59:56 PM

Females release that lovely hormone. It makes us all warm and fuzzy and cuddly and wanting cuddles and ....and...come over and I will whisper in your ear ...talk of love
Attachment seed being carefully sowed.


Thanks for answering me. Now I have some sense of what goes on inside a woman's head. Perhaps this stereotypical conflict between men and women comes down to something as simple as a preference for one mood-altering hormone over another. The FKBUDDY guys prefer a highball of adrenaline and testosterone. The LTR-or-bust girls prefer a straight shot of oxytocin.

Of course, there are all sorts of side-effects and social implications that follow from those preferences, but what I was looking for was the hook on the woman's side, and now you've identified it.

Somethere in all of that dance I do believe that the meaning of friendship between men and women has gotten lost--certainly for the FKBUDDY guys, but my guess is that it's also true for the LTR-or-bust girls.

Time for me to read up on oxytocin! Perhaps I'll have something more intelligent to say about this in future.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 265
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 12:29:03 AM

Evolution has given us females some tools to help teach us what is good for us. That hormone is a good teacher.


The concern I have is a bit broader. I'm also trying to understand why in so many cultures, including our own before the advent of the Pill, so much energy goes into controlling _female_ sexual behavior. I'm thinking about honor killings in Arab cultures, the ostracism of unwed mothers, and on and on and on. If the hormones were such a great teacher, why is there even a perceived need for any of that nonsense?

Is oxytocin really such a powerful drug that women will abandon all good judgment for another hit? If so, and what you're doing is encouraging women to develop some sobriety around it, I can only applaud that effort.

It doesn't change much from the male perspective, though. I really don't feel very valued if it turns out that what I really am to a woman who wants me for a long-term partner is a guaranteed supply for the fix she wants so badly. Yecch! In some ways that's even worse than wanting me for my money. In Alcoholics Anonymous they talk about "drinks with legs." No thanks.

The testosterone/adrenaline****ail is pretty compelling for males, I must admit. Those mood-altering hormones can certainly become addictive if a person is already in emotional pain. There's a self-help group called Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, and they talk about addiction to sexual acting out as well as addiction to romance and "falling in love" with unavailable partners. Testosterone/adrenaline is probably what mediates sexual acting out. My current guess is that oxytocin is the hormone that mediates addictive attachment to unavailable pseudopartners. Got to think this over some more, though.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 266
view profile
History
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 10:02:25 AM
Thank you AceOfSpace for your nice encouraging reply..

And you too, Daisypetals..


My current guess is that oxytocin is the hormone that mediates addictive attachment to unavailable pseudopartners. Got to think this over some more, though.


Have to question that conclusion though..maybe for some women it creates that..but , I know the feelings of which daisypetal is speaking..and I've never had an addictive attachment to unavailable psuedopartners..

One of the reasons, I don't jump into sex right away anymore is because I know this is what happens (though until POF forums, I didn't know about the hormone)..if I know that if I can't separate my emotions from sex, it is smart not to have sex with a man, that there isn't a reasonable expectation of more than just a sex only relationship. Works better for him too. I have tried to change those feelings, can't do it. So, have to go with what works for me.

I also don't think it's fair to say we want men to feed our addiction? Is the reverse then, also true..men want women to feed theirs? What I want is a man who wants to get attached to me emotionally too..I don't see what's wrong with that. I don't want to feed the feeling, I want to find someone where the feeling is appreciated? Because, when it isn't, it feels awful. Ideally , don't most people want it all? At least at some point in their lives.

I don't want a man for what he has...or what he can do for me ...beyond loving me..
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 268
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 11:00:23 AM
This is a lovely picture, except when it doesn't work. Then it gets ugly. When trust has been broken on either side and people have gone to war over whose fault it was that the ideal picture you paint wasn't fulfilled, and who therefore has to pay, it leaves everyone damaged.

I could call your self-protective behavior of witholding your own sexual pleasure "whining" and it would be just as appropriate as a man's self-protective behavior of avoiding commitment. You are probably a perfectly nice lady who would never consider using sex as a reward system or some of the other games that women run on men. However, that doesn't mean than men don't have to deal with such games.

The question remains, _why_ do men avoid commitment like the ideal picture you describe--which doesn't sound bad at all really. Your answer? We're lazy. We're whiners. We're _bad_ and we're _wrong._ --not all of us, you say, but then again how can a woman tell? Only by screening out the ones who aren't willing to wait you out.

This answer does nothing to reconcile things, especially as women get older and available men get scarcer. It also provides women with no information beyond what they already suspect.

Your information about oxytocin is useful to me--the rest of your doctrine I already knew. I don't know, perhaps you'd call me a whiner because the self-directed woman that I'd love to be with got away, the women I've been able to attract turned out to be unwilling to pull their own weight, and I'm now unwilling to go through _either_ disappointment again--not to mention the financial hardship it takes for a man to buy his way out of a marriage that no longer support him.

You tell me to refer back to your posts as if you could possibly understand it from a man's perspective. Well, y'all already know all this--the traditional courtship formula anyway--and so why are you asking?

Perhaps a better way to formulate the question would be: what is it about the traditional courtship formula that no longer works for so many men? Why do they find it so scary? What's gone wrong for _them?_ You might actually find out something that way.

I hear your compassion for women and I appreciate it. If you'd be willing to extend a bit of that to men, this dialoque will go from a "is not, "is so" debate to a useful sharing. Ready to listen to us yet? Or are you still convinced of the universal rightness of your system, with those ever-increasing numbers of men who are unwilling to go along just relegated to the "whiny user" pool and therefore unavailable.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 269
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 12:10:00 PM
I see. So the men who are walking wounded deserve it because they stink, and the women who can't find the love of their lives deserve it because they're weak. And ... compassion is something that a man must earn. And evolution justifies and promotes an environment where no one needs to learn anything? Just follow the formula, regardless, and it will all turn out OK. And if it didn't work out for you--that's on you.

Really, Daisy, there is no new information here.

The problem with self-reinforcing belief systems is that they work fine when you're operating within the circle that they describe. But when something goes wrong, they offer no guidance. I thought that the question was about why men are opting out of the circle. An interesting topic for your next book might be about the male perspective and how men can select women of true quality. If just holding out sexually was enough, believe me, men would be _very_ happy to wait. But it's not just quality women who use that tactic. In fact, my guess is that quality women who are capable of empathy have a harder time of it than predatory women.

So, one reason men settle for FWB is that we can't always tell, just from the courtship ritual, which women love us for ourselves and which women love what we bring to the table. With FWB, that risk is off the table.
 El_Mariachi
Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 271
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 12:55:06 PM
So men looking for FWBs AREN'T nice?

Hmmm.. what about the women who get into the FWB deal with said men? Not nice either?

How come if you want sex, find sex and the FWBs are on the same page... You're not nice? How'd they get into this deal? They were honest about what they wanted? I dunno.. that honesty thing sounds kinda nice.

Perplexing!

And don't even let me start on the "Most men" junk...


I suggest for ALL of the females out there who have this idea that they can think and act like a man in the dancing game of love and sex to reconsider.


Who exactly are you to tell women on here how they should think?


Too many FWB scenarios will do that. Too many sexual encounters with different men will do that. Too many times having your heart broken will do that.
Please go see a counsellor. I do care.


I LOVE the assumption that having FWBs equals too many sexual encounters with different men. And counselling gets suggested when you're disagreed with? What a piece of work you are.


Losers go into FWB because they are scared.


What a stupid thing to say. Only losers go into these arrangements? Unbelievable.


Yes, darling, we have choices today. Our choice, as evolved and intelligent worthwhile women is to say "No" when a man wants to persuade us to settle for FWB.


I'm the ONLY one who can persuade me to do ANYTHING.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 272
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 2:57:57 PM

I guess you are just one of those that lost. You sound like it. Losers go into FWB because they are scared.


Daisypetals,

I have shown you the respect and courtesy of addressing your points and not critiquing your person. I would appreciate the same regard from you. If you want to critique the flaws in my reasoning, have at it. If you want to characterize me in any sort of durogatory way, I'm afraid I must object. A quality woman has no need to go there.

Evolution doesn't mandate _anything._ Quite the opposite. It allows for variation in strategies. Natural selection is not rigorous. Any strategy that will allow for reproduction persists. Thus, there are a lot of what you call "lesser" people out there who are reproductively successful, and that is the problem with just blithely following your formula if you're a man.

As it turns out, men need to be just as selective as women if men are to be happy over the long term with the same partner. When men reach the point that they are no longer interested in raising a family, and women too for that matter, other options become available. I know that you deplore those other options. However, once again I'd have to say that for men who are interested in an LTR, some help from you about how to choose a woman who is actually worthy of the sort of determined courtship you advocate would be welcome. Calling men "losers" who picked wrong does nothing to reassure men that there's anything of value for them in what you have to say. It just sounds sexist.

So, if you were a man, and if you were interested in a woman who could go the distance _with_ you (as opposed to _for_ you, which distinction I hope you'll note), what would you look for? How would you choose?

If you want us to change our strategy, why not help us out!
 mommasays
Joined: 6/24/2007
Msg: 273
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 3:06:47 PM
i think we are seeing people who have "attachment" issues.....as kids they were tossed from on person they attached to, to another...daycare to daycare, babysitter to babysitter.....a child need to ATTACH to one of two people to be comfortable in doing that as a grown up

if women simply stop giving men "benefits" then they may go back to "finding a gf"
men have this problem because stupid women allow them
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 278
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 3:29:55 PM

I've said it before.... relationships aren't for everyone. FWB isn't for everyone... just like religion isn't for everyone. And when you judge someone for not making the choice you made, you end up looking like an douchebag assclown.


live and let live already.

Well said. Nothing irks me more than preachy people who think their way is the way of the world...life (on earth, anyway) is about different cultures, backgrounds, ages, mindsets, etc. Nothing is all one way or not, and it's a frustrating life if you expect it.
 ron13
Joined: 9/5/2004
Msg: 280
view profile
History
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 6:16:54 PM
FWB, I do not feel that most men are looking for FWB. Alot of men, just like women, are looking for that something /someone special but are willing to bide time with this "FWB".
I have had a FWB in the past that was the best sex I had ever had (whoot whoot) but she was not the one that I wanted to be in a relationship with.
We are all searching for that special somene and until they come around, we will do what ever is necessary to make sure our NEEDS are met in one way or another.
Why is it that women say that they are looking for "the one" but they are passing up every guy that looks, flirts or hits on them because of a minor technicality? Maybe they had a pot belly, uneven or off color teeth, a toe that turned too far to the left or maybe, just maybe, they were too short, the wrong color, wrong age, etc...?
We miss out on alot by making preconcieved notions about ppl. To find that special one you have to be willing to explore.

Ok, that's enough of me being off subject.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 281
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 6:17:57 PM
No no no no no, Daisypetals. That tactic isn't going to fly. Condescention is so unbecoming of you and so unhelpful to your argument.

Please answer the question that was asked. When you do, we're done and I'll concede your point. Until you do, dodge all you want to, your point remains open to question.

The question is this: What are the qualities in a woman that would make her worth the time and effort you propose we put into the project of "winning" her, and what are the indications that she does, in fact, have those qualities?

Without that information, you're asking men to bet our futures on a pig in a poke. Perhaps this all should be instinctive, but it obviously isn't, and that's why so many women out there are feeling the pain that you speak of. So help them out by helping us out. OK? The attitude of superiority and entitlement that your approach appears to foster does nothing to inspire me or any other man. You will never win me, or any other man over that way. Quite the opposite.

If you want my devotion, show me why I should give it to you. As you say, I can get sex, so witholding it isn't going to work. And as you say, I can get comfort when I'm feeling discouraged. So, witholding that isn't going to work either. And I can tell you for darn certain that the sorts of blandishments and recriminations you've just indulged in have exactly the opposite effect of winning a man over--unless he's so weak-willed that he still believes he has to prove himself to any female who comes along. So, since none of that nonsense will prove helpful, what will?

The question is this: Exactly what is it that you have to offer that would make me put my future plans at risk or on hold for you?

Answer that, and we're done. I'll start looking for someone who has qualities like that.

If you want to win this debate, that's how. But if you can't answer me, or if you indulge in condescension one more time, I can only conclude that your approach is based on old-school sexist prejudice and nothing more. So please, take your time. Believe me, I'm in no hurry on this one.
 El_Mariachi
Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 282
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 6:20:07 PM

Losers go into FWB because they are scared.


I'm pretty sure it was you who said that.

PEOPLE go into FWBs because they want to. When they don't want to.. they don't.

Telling people who see no problem with FWB situations to seek counselling isn't exactly "Nice".


Our choice, as evolved and intelligent worthwhile women is to say "No" when a man wants to persuade us to settle for FWB.


So if we CHOOSE to enter into an FWB situation - note: not persuaded.. no one can persuade someone who doesn't want to - are we no longer intelligent and worthwhile women?


This is just my feeling on it, and I make no judgments about other women who are ok with it..


Zangie.. you may not, but Miss Go See a Counsellor over there sure is.


Aaaaaggh! No..it will be the same old...same old...."I fell for him...I wanted more....I thought he would realize after awhile that he felt the same for me.....I did all the calling....I became a stalker...I gave him everything he wanted sexually....I cried for days when I saw him take another woman OUT FOR A DATE!....Do you wanna go with me to the bar he hangs out in.


Do you ALWAYS make assumptions?


Wanting a phone #, a phone call or anything else will just lead to emotional attachment.


So you say. *I* know better.


Is oxytocin really such a powerful drug that women will abandon all good judgment for another hit?


No.
 El_Mariachi
Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 285
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 6:38:11 PM

Yup, hope that there are still men out there that do want to have love and not just a roll.


There are. This "most men want FWBs" thing is bull. Always was. Lots of people want lots of different things.

That is how the cookie crumbles.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 286
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Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 7:03:33 PM
AceOFSpace...I could answer your question..but, I wasn't asked...I will say, I believe, as objectively as I can, that I think I have those qualities...and any man who spends any time with me would see it easily..by how I act..not what I say? How I treat him..I do try to put my money where my mouth is....and I have past experiences to back it up...like how I got divorced, just as one instance....
 El_Mariachi
Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 287
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 7:17:23 PM

No no no no no, dear. Condescention is so unbecoming and so unhelpful.


You've been going back and forth with her for a few pages now.. please please tell me that you're only just mentioning the condescension now, but you noticed it a few pages ago.. please. Heh.

If you get confused anymore, just repeat this mantra "This way is the right way. This way is the ONLY way".

Kidding. Don't do that. Then the thought/action police win.


And...these sicko dirty names come up for people who want to say "No!" to trendy sexual beliefs that eventually hurt? Is this a democracy?


I dunno. Is it? To hear you expound.. it surely is NOT.

Everyone involved in FWBs are NOT losers.. nor scared. At worst.. they're uninterested in LTRs.. otherwise, they'd have them. They probably do when things change for them in their minds.

YOU do not KNOW everyone and you certainly can't imagine yourself as spokesperson for everyone. You are not aware of everyone's motives, so do not present yourself as someone who IS.

We ALL know better. Each and everyone of us knows our motives way way better than you could ever pretend to.


That hostile woman a couple of posts ago sounds like a match for you.


I so dearly hope you mean me. You prove my point.

Don't agree with you? Well.. then we're all flawed. Is that not your battle cry?
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 291
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Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 8:10:40 PM
Who said sex wasn't part of dating..this thread is about sex being the only part? There are in betweens...it isn't either sex or no sex...it's sex in what context? Lots of grey areas...

To say I don't want a FWB..does not mean I don't want sex...I just don't care to have it under those conditions...

And no...it's not 1950's...1950's would be holding out till marriage...and expecting to take the lesser role as the wife...dependent, and at home, and deferring to the husband..in return for sex..and not recognizing your(the woman's) sexual needs...I would hope we all have evolved beyond that...

This whole thing has gotten so confusing..IMO...

I also think, that to each his own.and don't react well when I'm told that I have "issues" if I don't agree with someone. What happened to agree to disagree? Or, respect for others opinions, even when you don't agree with them?

I mean that for all of us.....
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 296
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 8:44:50 PM
Men! Please read her profile and give all of us a report card on what you think of her as a woman. It will help Ace of space with his question to me about the qualities that makes a man want to win a woman.


No dear. Hand-waving won't wash either. I am asking you for a direct answer to my respectfully posed question in your own words--the product of your own thoughts. Please don't dodge. You felt entitled to characterize my personality for me in a public forum. I therefore feel entitled to a direct answer from you.

That's fair now isn't it?

I'm willing to wait, but only so long. I'm sure that others are waiting too. So please, tell me what it is I should be looking for and how I can tell the difference between an appropriate woman for an LTR and one that you'd categorize as "lesser." And again, I'm talking about intrinsic qualities and how they are made manifest. I'm not talking about the mere behavior of deferring sexual gratification. Any woman can do that.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 299
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 9:03:26 PM
All right friends!

It is getting a bit hot in here and so I'm going to ask that we bring it back on topic. The question wasn't, "are men justified in wanting Friends with Benefits," it is "why are they looking for it."

My correspondent Daisypetals has gone on at length about why men are not justified in wanting that, but that argument has shed little light on why men do. Proffering the view that men who do are losers just poisons the well and inhibits men who might otherwise be willing to speak openly about their own experiences and views. If you see me as a loser anyway, why on Earth should I even talk to you?

So OP, let me ask you, were you interested in why? Or were you looking for reassurance that men were wrong in looking for that. If you wanted reassurance, I think you've gotten all you need. If you want to know what the appeal is, you might have already gotten that answer too.

I suspect that both senses of the question could have been implied, but the issue of justification or lack thereof is obviously quite sensitive. When dealing with sensitive subjects like this, vindication is the booby prize because when you're feeling victorious, you aren't learning anything.

I'd still like an answer to my question of Daisypetals about what to look for in a woman that would make it worth my while to go for an LTR over a FWB relationship. That would be useful information about what men should consider and what women might aspire to--if they're aim in life is to be in an LTR.

I would also like to point out to Daisypetals that once you open the door to negative characterizations it swings both ways. However, let's please keep it civil and keep it on topic from now on, shall we?

Thank you, and lest we forget ...
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 302
Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 9:25:07 PM
I gave you my answer.


Which message was that? I'll go back and reread it. If it's strewn among several messages, perhaps you'd do us all the kindness of summarizing it once again. That shouldn't be too hard now should it?


Is there anything about a woman or a certain woman that will make you go the distance with her?


Three things: First, a demonstrated willingness to go with the distance with me in the direction that I'm going. If I have to make a big detour that might derail my life's work, it's not worth it to me. Second, the competence to pull her weight as an equal partner in the relationship in all areas including financially. Third, chemistry.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 305
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Why are most men looking for Friends with Benefits?
Posted: 12/23/2007 9:38:29 PM

Second, the competence to pull her weight as an equal partner in the relationship in all areas including financially.


Just a curious question...does that mean she has to make at least as much money as you do? For example...what I do for a living just pays ok...my talents and degree aren't big money makers...so when a man says equally?..Does he mean the same amount of money? My experience says that men still tend to have talents that pay better?
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