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 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 383
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not ReportingPage 14 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

This was “institutionalized” behavior at its worst, indicative of the heated competition between the services, and NOT some government conspiracy headed by Bush, or Clinton, or anyone else.


motown, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the lack of information sharing was due to decisions made during the two Clinton administrations - that prior to that, the information each agency had would have been available to the other organizations....if that's the truth, and I believe it is, then we can lay the blame for 9/11 at the feet of Billy....(stand back everyone, the left is about to implode at that remark!!!)

comment to gentalltheway - how about citing your sources so we can check them? I've heard a comment from someone else here that you've bragged about making stuff up just to get a reaction. You can avoid those charges by telling us where you get this stuff you quote.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 385
view profile
History
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/30/2007 4:41:11 PM

Bush didn't reject any of them, because he wasn't the President at that time. Your arguments are pretty weak when you consider you can't even keep the timelines straight

Secondly, I cannot imagine an intelligence 'expert' saying something like that - it simply doesn't make sense to do so.
Or do you have some reason that justifies those 'cowboy' remarks?


I don’t have enough time to answer Motown as I am quite busy but I just had to take a minute to answer your posts.

First, once more you don’t have a clue of what you are talking about. He wasn’t the president at the time??? Amazing! Do you even take the time to read or just form an opinion on a word or two?


how about citing your sources so we can check them?


You do know how to cut and paste right? I mean considering that you claim to be an educated man, it shouldn’t be that difficult to accomplish. Once you figured it out, just paste anything that was added in here in google and it will bring you to all the sites mentioning the quotes.

What a waste of time you are!
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 386
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History
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 11:37:41 AM

But that’s FAR different from charging our government knew the details (the where and when of 9-11) and “actively” conspired to stop efforts to head it off.


By not doing anything on intelligence reports, it make’s the government fully responsible for what happened. There’s absolutely no question in my mind that they are.


Read Richard Clarke’s book.


I heard of it but didn’t had the time to read it yet.

Talking about Clarke’s book...

In his book "Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror," published Monday, Clarke accuses the Bush administration of ignoring repeated warnings about an al Qaeda threat in 2001 and looking for an excuse to attack Iraq at the expense of battling terrorism.
"I find it outrageous that the president is running for re-election on the grounds that he's done such great things about terrorism," Clarke said in a "60 Minutes" interview on the book with CBS. "He ignored it. He ignored terrorism for months, when maybe we could have done something to stop 9/11. Maybe, we'll never know."
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/22/bush.clarke/


Sounds pretty clear to me when he said “He ignored it”. Ignoring vital information makes you fully responsible…No excuses should be allowed.


Btw, I remember your quote above. Bin Laden just today issued another statement taking personal responsibility for 9-11.


All but one tape of Bin Laden were deemed fakes or impossible to verify if it was him because of extremely poor video and voice recording. This new one you are talking about is already deemed as another fake one. The only tape that was proven to be him, was the one where Bin Laden said that he was not responsible for 911 and to look within the government for the real criminals. Specialized organisations and voice specialists all agreed on this and all verifiable with a little of google work. Even the one supplied by the government as proof for the attack was deemed fake as well. The government was asked to provide proof of the identity and they followed with a bunch of bureaucratic bullshit that basically said...We will not!

Also...

President Clinton ordered two attack submarines to stand watch over the Taliban and bin Laden's terrorists. Bush ordered the subs to stand down. See: The Covert Hunt for bin Laden: Broad Effort Launched After '98 Attacks, The Washington Post: 12/19/01.

Clinton warned the Taliban he would hold the Taliban leadership personally responsible for any attack by bin Laden against Americans. Bush lifted that decree. See: Clinton's War on Terror: The Covert Hunt for bin Laden, The Washington Post, 12/20/01. But Bush eliminated these safeguards.

Bush sent $43 Million to the Taliban. His administration supported negotiations with terrorists on behalf of his campaign contributors. These included corporations seeking to build a pipeline through Afghanistan. These multinational special interests employed his father and former Bush administration officials including James A. Baker III, the man who led Bush's efforts to wrest the White House from Al Gore.

British media report that Bush ordered national security agents to "back off" the bin Laden terrorists. A former CIA agent appeared on BBC TV saying: "We were just told, 'You get caught spying on the Saudis or looking into their affairs, and you will lose your head!'" FBI And US Spy Agents Say Bush Spiked Bin Laden Probes Before 11 September, The Guardian (London): 11/07/01. Transcript: Did Bush Turn A Blind Eye To Terrorism? BBC Newsnight: 11/06/01. -- On Demand Video.

Intelligence agents reveal Bush turned a "blind eye" to terrorism by ordering our CIA and FBI to "back off" Saudi terror suspects - including Osama bin Laden's brothers - operating in the US. See: Call it 9-11Gate, American Politics Journal: 5/17/02. Because of Bush's orders, top FBI officials ignored warnings efforts to investigate and arrest the terrorists who later hijacked and flew our planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

A Gulf War vet, Lt. Colonel Steven Butler says "Bush knew" about the impending terrorist attacks, but did nothing to prevent them. Butler was "suspended for writing a letter in which he called President Bush 'a joke' and accused him of allowing the Sept. 11 attacks." News sources quote Butler's letter: "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama." DLI official removed for criticizing Bush, the Monterey County Herald: 6/3/02.

Colonel Butler, a veteran with 24-years of Air Force service added: "His presidency was going nowhere. He wasn't elected by the American people, but placed into the Oval Office by the conservative Supreme Court...the economy was sliding into the usual Republican pits and he needed something to hang his presidency on."Air Force colonel suspended after bad-mouthing Bush, The Associated Press, 6/4/02.

FBI Special Agent and Minneapolis Chief Counsel Coleen Rowley wrote: "The Minneapolis agents who responded to the call about Moussaoui's flight training identified him as a terrorist threat from a very early point." Rowley's memo confirms the FBI knew enough to arrest the terrorists before 9-11. Rowley fears a cover-up is underway: "I feel that certain facts ... have, up to now, been omitted, down played, glossed over and/or mischaracterized ... perhaps even for improper political reasons." Agent Claims FBI Supervisor Thwarted Probe, Washington Post: 5/27/02. And Coleen Rowley's Memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller, Time Magazine: 5/21/02.

Ouch ouch ouch…Proof of him knowing? I have no doubt of it.

Sorry for moving away from topic but I just had to answer this.
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 387
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 4:39:39 PM
"That one statement tells me everything anyone could want to know about you and how much you really care?

Really?..How so?...How am I supposed to be of maximum help to vets when Im suffering from secondary PTSD due to working in a dysfunctional system that doesnt take care of their healthcare providers?....Having flashbacks and extreme fatigue impedes the best healthcare worker from doing her best job....How is that helpful to vets when Im worrying about how to pay my rent because Im not getting paid enough to support myself?....Outstanding care of vets requires that healthcare providers are adequately compensated and taken care of by the agency that employs them....Mental health professionals provide emotionally exhausting, demanding work...People burn out if agencies dont provide a good working environment..That only hurts the vets.......You cant scrape an empty barrel and expect to get something for nothing ..We arent "machines" who only need a cartridge replaced as "care" ..Get real here......The Salvation Army and Peace Corp dont provide PTSD mental health treatment services.....Providing meals and collecting money like the Salvation Army does is not professional work , it isnt the same thing as doing intensive mental health therapy with a suicidal vet...Anyone can be trained to work in the Salvation Army after a few weeks...It takes years of training after getting a graduate dgree and being licensed to become an expert in treating PTSD ..Get educated about the disease and the treatment required first and what mental healthcare providers are up against when they provide long term care to PTSD survivors before you lecture about some thing you have no experience working with...Your ignorance is showing...To say that I dont care that women and children are being helped just like everyone else there is rediculous when Ive spent my entire professional life helping those suffering from abuse...To say that I dont understand what the men there are up against is totally clueless on your part, as I have probably have heard far, far more than you have about whats its really like to be in combat....To say that I should fake it and lie and go against my conscience and what I believe in just so I can give lip service to a "cause " I dont believe in is lying to the vets....HOW is that respectful to them??....They would much rather prefer that someone is honest and against the war than someone who lies about how much they support it....They get enough lies and insincerity from the politicans and people around them.....Flag waving armchair pontifications from your comfy house, car or boat isnt doing any help to vets so it looks like youve done nothing for them while you criticize those like me that go quietly into work every day and meet with vets to address their healthcare problems.....Typical.... WTF is up with that?....You dont answer the hard questions here.......I ve pointed out that unless special services were given to the women in regards to mental health treatment , the USA is only providing police protection, not getting rid of the long term domestic violence and mental health problems of the women......Police protection isnt domestic violence treatment, child abuse intervention or PTSD treatment......Police protection benefits everyone, but it doesnt address the special mental health needs of the women there.....It doesnt the problems for the women there...Get it?
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 388
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 6:40:33 PM
Well, mr. Busy gentalltheway, perhaps my reading skills have deteriorated, but your post clearly said something about opportunities which occured prior to 9/11 - which pretty much ensure that they occured pre-Bush, wouldn't you say? I mean, I can't see him passing up all these opportunities in his first couple of months in office - although perhaps you can...you seem to have a lively imagination...
Now, as for your refusal to cite, telling me to google for YOUR quotes isn't an appropriate answer - I'm beginning to believe that the stories I've heard from others on these threads, that you simply make stuff up to get everyone bent out of shape, are true, since you can't seem to show any proof to us. Citing is considered a proper mode of debating - and any serious research that doesn't reference - well, it simply isn't serious, it isn't done, it wouldn't be accepted by any university or other organization dealing in research - why should you be special?
If you can't cite, why should we believe a damn thing you tell us? Care to answer that?
Or would that be wasting your time?
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 389
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 7:38:53 PM
....cgg, has anyone ever told you you're a whiney thing? Because you are. It hurts my teeth to read your posts, you're so hard done by - a regular Florence Nightingale you aren't!
One point - before anyone can offer services, they have to have a secure environment in which to do so...the point has been made numerous times here. The kind of care you want to see in Afghanistan simply cannot happen until the medical personnel can work safely - something they cannot do in many parts of the country as yet. For that to happen, soldiers prepared to use force - i.e. guns, bullets, all that nasty stuff - are going to be required.

police protection isnt domestic violence treatment, child abuse intervention or PTSD treatment......Police protection benefits everyone, but it doesnt address the special mental health needs of the women there

Quite frankly, there are more important issues right now - not that those aren't important - but before they can happen, the country has to be secured. I believe I mentioned that....the fighting has to happen first, sorry to be the one to have to tell you that.

as I have probably have heard far, far more than you have about whats its really like to be in combat

My, you do jump to conclusions, don't you? Actually, I've spoken to quite a number of vets in my career, and the newspaper I founded has received awards for the support we provided veterans via editorials and articles - there are probably many people here you've insulted by making it sound like you're the only one who cares about veterans and their concerns. People all have different ways of supporting...most just don't make a career out of bragging on it here in the forums as you seem to.
One last comment - the Salvation Army does a great deal more than "provide meals and collect money" - perhaps, if you'd REALLY talked to veterans, you'd have a better understanding of just what the Sally Ann means to them.
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 391
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 9:11:54 PM
"Quit frankly, there are more important issues there now"

Then dont assert we are there to rescue the women of Afghanistan because the USA certainly isnt....That was my point to begin with....We have too much on our plate there to begin with.....As you stated, womens concerns and needs take a back seat to everyone and everything else...Its not a priority, as I already stated...


Im quite aware of what Sally Ann does for vets and thats great but it was you that put them, The Peace Corp and mental health therapy in the same category as a "profession"......It isnt....You are comparing apples and oranges there and I pointed that out...You know nothing about treating PTSD ...If you did, you would not have made such a rediculous statement about therapists "should" being able to live on poverty level wages and crappy work conditions, if they really "cared" about vets, while at the same time being expected to diagnose complex mental disorders and keep suicidal vets alive during treatment over long periods of time without any kinds of breaks.....No Salvation Army worker or Peace Corp volunteer is expected to do that on any scale.....So of course they are paid less than what I do... .....Just because one is a therapist doesnt mean they take vows of poverty....We arent nuns....We expect to be compensated adequately just like very other professional does....We have bills to pay just like everyone else.......If you want to call what I discuss in my profession daily as "bragging", then so be it....If I speak up and challenge those false assumptions of yours based upon my 20 years of work experience, and you dont like that, its really more about your issues and what you cant seem to hear.. ..But I will correct you when you are wrong about a profession you have no experience with...You would certainly do that with me if I made false assumptions about what you do for a living .....If anything, your false assumptions about PTSD and mental health therapy seems quite arrogant in and of itself.....Sometimes just listening to those who have more experience in the profession than you do is a wiser choice to make.....Not judging or jumping to conclusions..........We would all be better off if that happened..Then I wouldnt have to write these posts that make you unhappy and yet point out a glaring need in education about mental health treatment
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 392
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 9:22:04 PM
cgg, show me where, anywhere, I've made any assumptions about ptsd or mental health therapy or said anything about the conditions you should work under. I think you're confused....
All I'm hearing is you whining about how hard done by you are, how underpaid, how selfless, how full of crap you are (thought I'd slip that one in there) - find a new bandwagon please....because, you'll notice, this thread is about what the mainstream media in Afghanistan is reporting - not about you and your issues.
As someone suggested before this, go start a thread about your issues...
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 393
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 9:29:35 PM
...gottobeme...No one made you respond to my posts that initially werent even addressed to you in the first place...Dont respond to my posts if you dont want me writing back on that......It seems some here like to point out something that isnt true about a particular issue or topic that someone else has more experience with..Then then get insulted and backpedal when that person challenges their false assumptions and asks them a few questions about what they are saying..........Thats the nature of these forums...If you are going to respond to my post and give all sorts of false assumptions about what I do for a living, I will challenge that if what you say is incorrect about the topic Im discussing...Go get a passive woman to date if you want someone to shut up and put up while you talk only and post your opinions only....Forums for for debating and discussion.....Women included...
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 394
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 9:39:17 PM

If you are going to respond to my post and give all sorts of false assumptions about what I do for a living,

I repeat, show me where I've made ANY false assumptions, or assumptions of ANY kind, about your work. Sheesh....try reading what is written, can you do that, before replying.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 395
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 9:54:52 PM
Gottobeme You have made a valid point. Actually I have noticed for a while now, that posting his quotes and doing a search on google, with his "quotes" , has some strange results. The one that I did, showed he had quoted the head line of the quote, very little was in the passage though, except for that it referenced 3 individuals.


Let me see here if I understand...you are “trying” to debunk quotes given in regards to me thinking that Karzai could be lying about his relationship with Unocal? On something that I even said would be impossible to prove??? Is that your big come back?


One of the sources was clearly "biased". pro Taliban


Let me see here... Prophet of Doom?


One more time you’ve proven that you don’t have a single clue of what you are talking about. Prophet of Doom is the most anti-Muslim site I ever encountered yet! Pro Taliban???


That is why I have just started ignoring this poster


If you want to ignore me, start by not mentioning anything of mine that as always, will embarrass you.

I've been ignoring you for a long time now except for this one as you poorly attempted to bring me down.

Stick with Gottobeme...at least he will approve everything you say

It seems some here like to point out something that isnt true about a particular issue or topic that someone else has more experience with


Thankfully, there's not that many in here to start with. Just ignore them as they will always challenge you with absolutely nothing to back up their claims. I guess the need to feel important/intelligent is stronger to admit that they are wrong.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 396
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/1/2007 10:06:07 PM

Just ignore them as they will always challenge you with absolutely nothing to back up their claims. I guess the need to feel important/intelligent is stronger to admit that they are wrong.

Let me see if I've got this straight - this comes from the guy who refuses to give citations for his information - in other words, provides nothing to back up his claims - Got it!
Gentalltheway, you're talking about yourself, you son of a gun, you fooled me!
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 398
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/2/2007 7:20:46 AM
"Show me where I made any assumptions about PTSD or mental health therapy"

In your post, you basically put mental health therapy in the same category as working in the Salvation Army and the Peace Corp and said if workers really "cared" about vets and those with PTSD they would be okay working for poverty level wages and crappy conditions...And that you could tell just what kind of worker I was and how I really didnt care about vets because I insisted on good working conditions and top pay in the field or else I wouldnt apply to those jobs......Like those at the VA......Well,thats total bullsh..it on your part.....I can tell you that those kind of crappy conditions and pay attract and keep the worst kind of therapists....Those who insist on top dollar wages and good conditions attract the best kind of therapists.....Isnt that what you want for vets?....We are working professionals here...We havent taken a vow of poverty ....We have many years of training and expertise and make critical decisions every day that impact peoples healthcare....Thats not "bragging", its reality.....I have two masters degrees and over 20 years of experience providing therapy...Thats a fact regardless of what you want to call it.....We arent volunteer housewives with nothing better to do than volunteer work while we have a private income in the side..We arent long suffering martyrs who dont need adequate recognition and compensation here......It is not an "easy job" with easy money...This isnt "pin money" while we have a husband to support us financially....Our jobs ARE our income....We have needs and responsibilities just like very other professional who holds a job....Your attitiude is why in part that the profession doesnt get compensated the way it should.....I get really sick of that misperception of us


BTW..The "mainstream media" says little to nothing about the domestic violence and abuse and PTSD that the Afghan women suffer over there...They say zilch on what its gonna take to treat those women and "liberate" them....Very few mental health therapists with a PTSD expertise are even interviewed and reported on....Ive commented on all of that so it is on topic here...Whether or not people are ready and able to hear that is another matter
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 399
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/2/2007 11:23:46 AM

Let me see if I've got this straight - this comes from the guy who refuses to give citations for his information


It's quite obvious that you didn't get it...straight or not! But then, you should be use to it by now.
You based the post above on what someone else wrote which by the way rarely makes sense 90% of the time unless he copied and pasted news.

I had one post where I forgot to mention the dates, where they were from and who wrote them and suddenly it's what I always do?

Yeahhh you got it alright!

Now, look at dunrich last post. That was written nearly 4 ½ years ago! You will notice that he removed the date which was “Posted 7/7/2003 8:38 PM”

This is not news anymore and cant even come close to what’s going on in Afghanistan in today’s day and age.

So you see, I cannot take his posts seriously for that reason. By the way, it’s not the first time it happens.

Now here’s some news reported in October which I did not noticed before. I will even add a link for those who would want too verify it.


AFGHANISTAN: Over 155 civilians killed in suicide attacks, fighting in September
KABUL, 12 October 2007 (IRIN) - Over 155 Afghan civilians died in ground military operations, aerial strikes and suicide attacks by Taliban insurgents, US, NATO and Afghan government forces in September alone, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) has told IRIN.

"At least 80 civilians lost their lives in suicide attacks and over 75 others were killed in military operations and aerial strikes in September," said Farid Hamidi, an AIHRC official.

The AIHRC is yet to verify the gender, age and other details of the civilian victims.

Dozens of civilians are also feared wounded and many others have been displaced as a result of insurgency-related violence, the rights watchdog said.

Suicide attacks were all but unknown in Afghanistan until 2002 but have soared in the last two years. Since January 2007, over 103 suicide attacks have been recorded compared to 100 in the whole of 2006, the UN reported in September.

Noncombatants make up to 80 percent of suicide attack victims, found the UN study Suicide Attacks in Afghanistan (2001-2007).

"Unfortunately, all warring parties have continuously disregarded our repeated calls that all measures must be implemented to avoid harm to civilians during armed hostilities," the AIHRC's Hamidi said.

Southern and southwestern parts of Afghanistan are widely considered to be hotbeds of insurgency. However, two-thirds of civilian casualties in September resulting from military operations, aerial strikes and suicide attacks were reported in the eastern Afghan provinces of Nangarhar, Kunar and Laghman, AIHRC preliminary findings show.
More violence than in 2006

Apart from rising civilian casualties, around 250 alleged Taliban fighters and at least 30 Afghan and international soldiers reportedly died in armed conflict in September.

On 21 September the UN Secretary-General reported to the Security Council that insurgency-and-terrorism related violence in Afghanistan had seen an increase of at least 20 percent compared to 2006.

"An average of 548 incidents per month were recorded in 2007, compared to an average of 425 per month in 2006," said the report, entitled The Situation in Afghanistan and its Implications for International Peace and Security.

In one of the deadliest incidents, on 29 September, a suicide bomber blew himself up inside a bus packed with Afghan army officers, killing 30 people, including six civilians, the Afghanistan Ministry of Defence said.

Furthermore, in separate military operations in Helmand and Uruzgan provinces on 25-26 September, US and Afghan forces killed over 160 Taliban insurgents, the US military stated in two press releases.

The Associated Press news agency said that by September this year the tally of war-related deaths had surpassed 5,000, compared to a total of 4,019 deaths in the whole of 2006.

"Condolence" payments
Suicide attacks killed more than 80 civilians only in Afghanistan, September 2007.Suicide attacks killed more than 80 civilians only in Afghanistan, September 2007.Only a few of the over 30 nations that have contributed troops to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan provide modest ad hoc "condolence" payments to the families of civilians who die in their military operations, a spokesman for ISAF said.

In May 2007 the AIHRC found that US soldiers used "indiscriminate shooting and excessive force" during an incident on 4 March in Nangarhar Province in which at least 11 civilians were reportedly killed.

The rights watchdog said the US army formally apologised to the affected local people and paid a "condolence" sum of US$2,000 to each directly affected family.
The AIHRC has, however, repeatedly demanded the establishment of a regular and fair "compensatory" mechanism which would provide financial assistance to families affected in armed conflicts.

"There must be a transparent system of payments to the families of every civilian victim of armed conflict, in conformity with Afghanistan's domestic laws," Hamidi maintained.

According to Afghanistan's current penal code, a person who mistakenly kills an individual should pay Islamic compensation (`Diyat') equivalent to the price of 40 camels to the affected family - roughly $25,000.

http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=74755


With violence increasing every year, it’s damn difficult to remain positive as of where this is heading. Even more so when one reads in US and Canadian news that we are winning!
 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 401
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/2/2007 11:49:29 PM
It all looks good on paper, and spreadsheets...but in the field it's a bit
of a different story. The Taliban are resurgent in many areas, they haven't gone away for the winter like they usually do.
They have built alliances with many clans and people.. They will be there in force in the spring, perhaps even some winter attacks.
Any ideas?

 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 407
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/3/2007 8:13:55 PM

diplomacy is like a chess game

I've worked with diplomats from Britain, the Philippines and Canada in the past, dealing with a sticky situation a friend had gotten himself into while overseas - pool is way too tidy a description. I would go with that only if pool involved hiding the balls, grabbing the table and tilting it way up so all the balls fall to one side, stealing the cues....all done of course while smiling at the other guy.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 408
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/3/2007 11:27:38 PM

I've worked with diplomats from Britain, the Philippines and Canada in the past, dealing with a sticky situation a friend had gotten himself into while overseas - pool is way too tidy a description. I would go with that only if pool involved hiding the balls, grabbing the table and tilting it way up so all the balls fall to one side, stealing the cues....all done of course while smiling at the other guy.


Great description.

Which is why it's good to be skeptical when one tries to paint a rosy picture of a war. Such a dirty playing field in this game.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 409
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 4:57:15 AM
War is never rosy. It's a tough, dirty, soul deadening experience. But that doesn't mean it should be avoided at all costs, in every situation. I have an uncle who fought in the Pacific as a US Marine and you wouldn't believe the things he saw and had to do to stay alive, but he still thinks it was a just and necessary war. Practically every allied veteran from that war believes the same, even though it was one of the nastiest ever. It left deep scars on all that participated, vets and civilians alike. But our vets and home front willingly paid the price for the better good.

Maybe people don't remember just how isolationalist America was before our involvement in WW2? We had an active and vocal "America First" movement that leveled the same kind of charges I see repeated about Afghanistan, that we shouldn't get involved in European or Asian wars to further the economic and territorial aspirations of others and should avoid war at all costs. The movement was even against giving aid to Britain because most thought they'd lose to Germany anyway, so why waste the effort? Pearl Harbor changed all that. Even the movement's leading spokesman, Charles Lindbergh, switched positions and fought clandestinely in the Pacific against the Japanese.

The biggest problem in Afghanistan isn't a corrupt government but an active insurgency with sanctuaries in places we can't get too and who terrorizes locals into forced allegiance. The Taliban may never be completely routed. The Afghan government's road to respectability is still a long way off, but no one said it would become a model of efficiency and fairness overnight—it will take much more time. But it's still "way" too early to give up.

As far as a plan for success, I think we need to refocus our energies and make Afghanistan our #1 priority. Too bad Iraq is draining so much resource and attention, but it's a mess we'll have to deal with.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 411
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 10:24:04 AM
Dunrich - what you're missing here is that the liberal/democrat side cannot abide the thought that the right wing just might be right, that our tactics might prevail, that we might even win, not just in Afghanistan, but in Iraq. Personally, and I can hear the laughter in my left ear now, I believe that one day, perhaps 20 or 30 years down the road, we'll look back at Bush and say that, despite the mistakes he's made, he started the process that brought the Middle East into the 21st century and ended the tribalism and warfare that has been a staple there for centuries.
Motown, a good point about US isolationism - came across an interesting tidbit today - in 1907, Roosevelt had 16 new US battleships painted white, and sent them around the world to announce America's entry onto the world scene. The fleet was known as the 'Great White Fleet'.
Nonetheless, it goes without saying that if the US involves itself, the left wing will demand to know what business we have there, or ascribe motives such as commercial gain - oil, or whatever.
If the US stands aloof, the left wing will say 'People are dying, someone has to help, why isn't the US doing anything?'
The US can't win.
A few days ago, a woman emailed me, asking what the purpose of the US armed forces was. Because I didn't look at her profile, I answered somewhat philosophically. Then I discovered she was from Britain - a country that owes its very life to the US involvement in WW2, as does most of Europe.
I still cannot believe that anyone could be so dense as to be unable to understand the debt that is owed, not just to the US but to every single country that stepped in to save Europe from Hitler - and the blood debt that is owed to every soldier who fought, and especially to those who were injured or died in that war.
And liberals/democrats say we have no compassion. At least we're not stupid.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 412
view profile
History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 10:34:38 AM
Will you please stop bringing up WW2 and Hitler. It's apparent that you have some obsession. So stop.

Also, when you say "the left wing will demand to know..." You're predicting the future, which no one can do.

"At least we're not stupid."
What a child you are.

There's so much tragedy happening in Afghanistan right now, because the forces were split and sent to that illegal occupation in Iraq.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 413
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 10:59:41 AM

It's apparent that you have some obsession.

It's apparent that you cannot handle anyone making points you don't agree with. Adolf Hitler was a significant issue in terms of the discussion I was having with this British woman - if you can't see its relevance, you're even dumber than the average left wingnut.

Also, when you say "the left wing will demand to know..." You're predicting the future, which no one can do.

Gee, do you think that the left wing will change its usual practice, just to make my prediction wrong? Predictions based on historical precedence are pretty common fare.
Yup, like I noted, some posters are even dumber than the average left wingnut.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 414
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 11:13:26 AM
One thing I will agree with critics. US foreign policy needs a complete overhaul, with much less emphasis on the projection of American military power in the world. It's about time Europe, South Korea, Japan, and many other countries we have mutual defense treaties with started spending way more on their own security, and being more visible projecting that security. We need to get out of outdated Cold War defense alliances and this business of protecting everybody and their grandmother, and start spending more time, money, and effort on our own problems, both global and domestic. Afghanistan and Iraq being the most urgent, of course.

We simply don't have the military assets and bottomless resources for it anymore, and there's nothing wrong with owning up to it.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 417
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 5:15:21 PM
motown - excellent points....let's hope someone hears them!

MsSquirrly - I oversimplified the case re Britain - funny you called me on it because when I wrote it, I wondered if I shouldn't expand on the point. By no means did I mean to denigrate the efforts of the other Allies, and especially Canada, since both my parents were vets - Dad served in Europe as did my uncle, his brother and Mom was a WAC.
Yes, Britain had won the Battle of Britain before the US became involved, but ultimately, it was the presence of US money and arms which turned the tide - I'm not certain that the Allies could have managed without them. Certainly Europe was lost without the US, I can't see the Allies, without America, mounting D-Day. I'll have to think on that.
A point you didn' t raise is that the US was already, prior to Pearl Harbour, supporting Britain via the merchant marine and with munitions, etc. As a result of that, Germany sent subs to the US east coast and attacked US merchant ships. While it took Pearl Harbour to bring the US in, pressure was building against the isolationist elements in the US to join the fray.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 419
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 12/4/2007 6:25:30 PM
I've got to respond to you on this MsSquirrly, before returning to our thread - Canada did far more than earn an honourable mention - their D-Day performance proved that, if nothing else.

The Canadian forces that landed on Juno Beach faced 11 heavy batteries of 155 mm guns and 9 medium batteries of 75 mm guns, as well as machine-gun nests, pillboxes, other concrete fortifications, and a seawall twice the height of the one at Omaha Beach. The first wave suffered 50% casualties, the second highest of the five D-Day beachheads. The use of armour was successful at Juno, in some instances actually landing ahead of the infantry as intended and helping clear a path inland.[23]

Despite the obstacles, the Canadians were off the beach within hours and beginning their advance inland. The 6th Canadian Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars) and The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada achieved their June 6objectives, when they crossed the Caen–Bayeux highway over 15 kilometres (9 mi) inland.[24] The Canadians were the only units to reach their D-Day objectives, although most units fell back a few kilometres to stronger defensive positions. In particular, the Douvres Radar Station was still in German hands, and no link had been established with Sword Beach.

By the end of D-Day, 15,000 Canadians had been successfully landed, and the 3rd Canadian Infantry Divisionhad penetrated further into France than any other Allied force, despite having faced strong resistance at the water's edge and later counterattacks on the beachhead by elements of the German 21st and 12th SS Hitlerjugend Panzer divisions on June 7 and June 8.

(Dieppe was a failure due to poor planning by Lord Mountbatten, amongst other reasons).
Furthermore, Canada was the leading force in the disastrous raid on Dieppe -
3,623 of the 6,086 men who made it ashore were either killed, wounded, or captured.
- a battle which proved the feasibility of the later D-Day operation.
Canadian forces were also instrumental in the fights in Italy, Holland and Belgium - the battle of Ortona, Italy is to this day considered to be one of the war's most fiercely fought battles.
This doesn't even begin to touch on the efforts of our navy and merchant marine, or the troops in the Pacific theatre - what happened to Canadian troops at the surrender of Hong Kong is one of the more brutal stories of that war.
So, more of a leading role MsSquirrly, not an honourable mention.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 422
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 12/5/2007 10:34:35 AM
I think, msSquirrly, on this one we'll have to agree to disagree - and Dunrich, good point about how wusses like Layton would scream and cry over the casualties of Dieppe - interestingly enough, Canada got the lead role because, up till then, they hadn't been seeing much action - and had been complaining about it!
Boy, have things changed. And where has the left wing gone during this discussion? I've noticed that, when the facts become incontrovertible, or difficult for them to handle, they seem to make like mice and go quiet.
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