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Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 355
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Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not ReportingPage 15 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
You, Sir, are a true hero.

I salute you! (as well as anyone else who chooses to trade their temporary security for the truth, and the knowledge that only by telling others will we know true prosperity)
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 356
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/26/2007 9:34:21 PM
{ QUOTE "{" Quote Research has shown that PTSD changes the biology of the brain. MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) and PET (positron emission tomography) scans show changes in the way memories are stored in the brain. PTSD is an environmental shock that changes your brain, and scientists do not know if it is reversible.

In the United States, 60% of men and 50% of women experience a traumatic event during their lifetimes. Of those, 8% of men and 20% of women may develop PTSD. A higher proportion of people who are raped develop PTSD than those who suffer any other traumatic event. Because women are much more likely to be raped than men (9% versus less than 1%), this helps explain the higher prevalence of PTSD in women than men.

Some 88% of men and 79% of women with PTSD also have another psychiatric disorder. Nearly half suffer from major depression, 16% from anxiety disorders, and 28% from social phobia. They also are more likely to have risky health behaviors such as alcohol abuse, which affects 52% of men with PTSD and 28% of women, while drug abuse is seen in 35% of men and 27% of women with PTSD.

More than half of all Vietnam veterans, about 1.7 million, have experienced symptoms of PTSD. Although 60% of war veterans with PTSD have had serious medical problems, only 6% of them have a problem due to injury in combat.

African Americans, when they are exposed to trauma, are more likely to develop PTSD than whites.

People who are exposed to the most intense trauma are the most likely to develop PTSD. The higher the degree of exposure to trauma, the more likely you are to develop PTSD. So, if something happens to you more than once or if something occurs to you over a very long period of time, the likelihood of developing PTSD is increased.

Sometimes, people who have heart attacks or cancer develop PTSD.

Refugees (eg, people who have been through war conditions in their native country or fled from conflict) may develop PTSD and often go years without treatment.

New mothers may develop PTSD after an unusually difficult delivery during childbirth. Also, patients who regain partial consciousness during surgery under general anesthesia may be at risk for developing PTSD. "QUOTE ENDS}" From emergency health

Garden Girl, I asked a question of you on the other thread about Afghanistan in the current events forum, which you ignored. Here you have answered it for me .

{QUOTE FROM GARDEN GIRL "As for PTSD, do you think only vets suffer from it..Any person that has any kind of traumatic experirience can suffer from PTSDEND OF QUOTE"} .

So you admit now, that there are other causes ofPSTD than combat? This is accurate, as you can see in the above quote that states clearly that,{ {QUOTE" Refugees (eg, people who have been through war conditions in their native country or fled from conflict) may develop PTSD and often go years without treatment"END OF QUOTE .

Now, as pointed out earlier to you, the woman in Afghanistan had very traumatic expieriences under Taliban rule. That is something I dont think anyone will argue with , well other than fanatical males who support the Taliban perhaps. Are you advocating, that we leave these woman under Taliban oppression, forget about their PSTD and anxiety?

Also, notice the high incidence of PSTD in Vietnam Veterans, there are sevaral reasons they have suffered more with this wound, than their dads did in WW2 . Probably, incidence of PSTD was just as high among them, (although it was called combat fatigue back then) how ever they had a much better oppurtunity of coping with it, because they had wide spread support at home, people back then welcomed their veterans home, supported them.

As one who works with soldiers suffering from this "wound", I surely hope you keep your views to your self and do not tell them that what you really think, is that they are wrong for fighting? I read a post where you called your country a " Nazi regime" , hope you do not say that to your patients?

If you support the troops, and not the mission, that is fine, many veterans fought to give you that right, so no problem. How ever, when you tell a soldier, he was in effect, nothing but a "Nazi" , you sure are not helping that individual out. When you tell him or her, she was supporting an un just cause, you are doing a lot of damage to that individual.

You have that right , yes, but realize please that you lose a lot of credibility here , as you say you support the troops. That, sorry, is not support.

Like I mentioned in the other thread to you, a police officer has a very good chance in responding to a call, that they might get PSTD from the dangers they face in answering that call. You cant just ignore a victims call for help though, because they might see, feel something traumatic. The same with Afghanistan, yes some of our troops will suffer from PTSD , definnately the Taliban caused that "wound" in its victims though .

We do have to support our Vets, give them all the help they require, no argument from me there for sure, I come from a military family. How ever, we cant ignore the calls for help.

A lot of troops who were in Ruwanda, Cambodia, watched terrible things while under UN rules of engagement that didnt allow them to interfere with terrible atrocitys, also suffer from PTSD . So it is not only combat that causes this wound, and sometimes we do have to face terrible things in this world.

There is evil in this world, some who want to impose their will and religions on others, some have a name, Taliban and Al Quadia are two of them. Religous fanatics flying jet planes into towers filled with a lot of innocent civilians on a glorious morning , is also a cause of PTSD. "END OF QUOTE FROM DUNRICH FORUM DO YOU REALLY SUPPORT THE TROOPS}

Their will be a lot less PTSD 20 years from now, after the defeat of the Taliban.

By the way, I just copied my response from another forum on supporting the troops to this one, seems like if Garden Girl cant make her point here , then she jumps to another thread and says the same thing all over again.

Look, in WW2 our soldiers suffered from PTSD , so did the 6 million who were gassed and the maybe 100 million who dealt with the terror caused by Hitler.

Same thing in Afghanistan, look, are you advocating that the Taliban are good for PSTD for heavens sakes? Do you think they are right? Do you support their policy on woman not seeing Doctors, getting an education? Training Al Quadea terrorists to fly planes into buildings?

We all know hat you guys are against, now have the courage to say what you are for.
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 357
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 4:30:22 AM
Gentalltheway, CGG, and Cosback, the events leading up to 9-11 and Afghanistan were very complex and crossed global boundaries. To get a truer picture of all the interrelated dynamics I just started reading a great book by a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter that is shedding even more light and knowledge on the subject, and I recommend anyone even slightly interested to read it. You can pick up a used paperback on Amazon for less than $10.

The Looming Towers: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11

More info:

I also found another book I may add to my reading list....

America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It


I will say this, if there's ONE thing I've learned from all the research and reading I've done up to now, 9-11 and our subsequent involvement in Afghanistan was NOT some premeditated conspiracy. The roots of radical Islamic terror go way back and not the direct result of any specific American action.

Btw, Cosback, I actually enjoy Bill Kristol's commentary on Fox News' Sunday morning. He's a conservative, obviously, but is fair-minded and makes more sense than the liberals I've heard.
Joined: 3/22/2007
Msg: 358
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 8:03:16 AM
“We are there at the request of the Afgahn [Afghan] government”.

So that was an invitation we received via airmail on 9/11?

Who is rewriting history? Silly me, I thought it was another blowback terrorist attack from bin our once famous freedom fighter we supported to get those darn commies out of Afghanistan.

This is a great example of the military industrial complex using the mainstream media to brainwash the public for its benefit. Keep them ignorant, and then add fear.

“We are there at there request” is right up there with Bush saying “Mission Accomplished”. (Yes, I know he said that about Iraq, but it’s the same propaganda machine)

I think what you are describing is the Pattie Hurst Syndrome (also known as the Stockholm Syndrome).

Which of course is exactly what Naomi Klein describes in “The Shock Doctrine”.

By the way Chalmers Johnson published “Blowback” in 2000 and in it he predicted blowback from bin Laden.

“The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.” (Blowback, Johnson)

Where have you been? Oh ya, watching TV.

*they own the media, we own the truth*

"The roots of radical Islamic terror" goes way back to a term coined by the propaganda machine of the current Admin.
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 359
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 8:45:09 AM
Actually, the roots of Islamic terror, at least with respect to the US, go back to the Carter administration (the Hostage Crisis is a perfect example of state-sponsored terrorism) and the Reagan administration (the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing).

As for Chalmers Johnson's book, a lot has happened and been uncovered since 2000, so you need to read more up-to-date research. In the past few pages, I've already supplied some recent books that do just that.

Joined: 3/15/2007
Msg: 360
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 8:58:51 AM
enjoyed the comments... broad range of 2 cents : bikers for Ron Paul for president !!!!!
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 361
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 10:04:30 AM
"Now have the courage to say what you are for"

I have said what Im for, many, many times here...I want all child abuse stamped out...I want all soldiers to have their trauma treated....I want all incest survivors to have unlimited treatment for their lifelong PTSD.....I want family therapy and individual therapy for the spouses of soldiers...It isnt a matter of me not speaking up for what Im for since Ive done that many times here, it that those around me that refuse to listen to that or think that what Id want isnt as important as war and greed...Regarding PTSD of others besides soldiers, im very much aware others besides soldiers suffer from it..Thats exackly what I was pointing out when I quoted that other poster who seemed to think I didnt know that information......I was quoting another poster regarding the statement on others experiencing PTSD besides soldiers..So read carefully what I said there...Secondly, I never said only soldiers suffer from PTSD..Centainly child abuse, rape, natural disasters also cause people to suffer from PTSD.....What makes you think I dont already know that?...Ive been treating civilians suffering from PTSD for 20 years....What Ive been saying all along is that we dont need to add to the numbers of those who suffer from PTSD already...War and domestic violence towards others causes PREVENTABLE PTSD...Those arent natural disasters..That is what Id like to see eliminated...Ive made that very clear...Get rid of PREVENTABLE PTSD...You quote stats and info given out by "experts" who dont treat the disorder..Meanwhile I go back into my office and deal with what really happens with the symptoms of others...Its not that neat and tidy as the "research" states.....If this country is going to insist on war, it had better be prepared to fund a lifetime of treatment for those traumatized......So far, I havent seen anything near that...Walter Reed Hospital is operating at one third capacity....That means 2/3 of all vets are turned away....That needs to stop...If they need more therapists to do the job, pay us more to do the work...We arent going to bust our butts and develop secondary PTSD at Walter Reed Hospital for a sh..itty pay and terrible working conditions....Put your money where your mouth is
Joined: 3/22/2007
Msg: 362
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 10:39:58 AM
I read “Blowback” before 9/11. Did you?

I was referring to the currents admins racist use of such phrases as “radical Islamic terror” to demonize a group of people.

Have you read "The Shock Doctrine" yet? 2007
"Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali? 2007
"Failed States" by Chomsky? 2006
“End of America” by Naomi Wolf? 2007
"War and Terrorism” by Michel Chossudoysky?
“Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” by John Perkins
or his new book “The Secrete History of the American Empire”? 2007
“A Man Without a Country” by Kurt Vonnegut?
“Hey Rube” by Hunter S. Thompson?
“Sanctions, Bombing and US Policy” by Geoff Simons?
“Future: Tense” By Gwynne Dyre?
“Hotter Than Hell” by Mark Tushingham? You know the guy Harper silenced.

This is just a short list; I’m not in my library.

Have you read any of Ron Paul’s essays?

Do you know how many people behind Harper work for or have worked for Hill and Knowlton? Do you know who Hill and Knowlton is? Do you know their history of fabricating “news” events to drive a population to war?
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 363
view profile
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 11:22:25 AM

The Looming Towers: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11

Although I am sure that it is quite an interesting book (never read it), but because he claims the main reasons for not preventing 911 were the barriers that prevented the sharing of vital threat information between the CIA and FBI, I just can’t take it seriously. It’s basically the an exact copy of what the Bush league gave for excuse at the 911 commission.

The bottom line is simple,

The Bush administration ignored numerous warnings from US and foreign agencies:

· They ignored warnings as early as June from the National Security Agency's Echelon electronic spy network that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture
· They ignored warnings from an FBI agent in Phoenix on July 10, 2001 about suspicious Arab pilots with ties to Al Qaeda who were training in a local flight school, urging a nationwide investigation of Arab students in flight schools
· Bush personally ignored warnings from the CIA on August 6, 2001 that Al Qaeda planned to hijack US planes
· They ignored warnings from Jordanian intelligence in the summer that a major attack was planned inside the US using airplanes
· They ignored warnings from Israeli intelligence in August that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent, organized by a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation
· They ignored warnings from French intelligence of an imminent attack
· They ignored warnings from Russian intelligence in August that at least 25 terrorist were trained in Afghanistan and Pakistan to attack US targets, with future plans to attack financial, nuclear, and space facilities
· They ignored warnings from Moroccan intelligence in August that Bin Laden was "very disappointed" by the failure of the 1993 WTC bombing, and planned "large-scale operations in New York in the summer or autumn of 2001"
· They rejected a search warrant requests by FBI agents in Minneapolis for Moussaoui's computer disk
· They ignored warnings from Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak on August 31 of an impending attack on the US
· They ignored phone calls from Abu Zubaida, bin Laden's chief of operations, to the United States that were intercepted by the National Security Agency shortly before 911
· They ignored an extroardinary number of "puts" on the stocks which were hardest hit by the 911 attacks, including American and United airlines, in the days leading up to 911

There were also reports from:

Intelligence sources in London confirmed yesterday that both MI5 and MI6 had sent reports to the United States in the run-up to 11 September, suggesting that America was under threat.

An aide to the former Taliban foreign minister, Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil, has revealed that he was sent to warn American diplomats and the United Nations that Osama bin Laden was due to launch a huge attack on American soil.
Neither organisation heeded the warning, which was given just weeks before the 11 September attacks.

Let’s not forget Tenet whom arranged a White House meeting two months before the attack to shake them into action…but…

Woodward's book reports that Tenet hurriedly arranged a White House meeting on July 10, 2001, two months before the Sept. 11 attacks, to try to "shake Rice" into taking action on ominous intelligence reports warning of a potentially catastrophic attack by Al Qaeda, possibly within U.S. borders.
The book says that Tenet and J. Cofer Black, his counterterrorism chief, left the meeting in frustration, believing they had received a "brushoff" fromRice.

This was disputed by Rice in 2006 and she said that she will come back once she verifies that actual meeting in the transcripts. Guess what? She never did!
Those are all facts…not from a book based on opinions or copying whatever the Bushie league says. Historical facts!

As far as the other book you mentioned, again, I am sure that it must be quite interesting and entertaining as well (for some).

I will say this, if there's ONE thing I've learned from all the research and reading I've done up to now, 9-11 and our subsequent involvement in Afghanistan was NOT some premeditated conspiracy

The invasion of Afghanistan had been planned since at least 1998, 9/11 happened just in time to secure public support for the attacks. This is well documented.

There’s absolutely no doubt that the government was aware of the attack. Questions are: Why was it not prevented and was it done on purpose?

Frankly, all the facts leads to one trail and it’s the one where Bush turned his back on the country. He needed to get in to Afghanistan and 911 gave him some tools to do so even if Afghanistan never attacked nor threatened the US.

Of course, some months later once they installed a puppet government in Afghanistan, Karzai then asked for UN help and that’s when countries such as Canada for example got involved in the game.

Recent news...

AFGHANISTAN: Children increasingly affected by conflict
27 Nov 2007 1555 GMT
Source: IRIN

Afghan turmoil
KHOST, 27 November 2007 (IRIN) - Razmi Khan, 12, was once the most outstanding student in his class, but is unable to go to school. He was badly wounded by a missile as he walked to a mosque in Nader Shah Kot District in the southeastern province of Khost on 17 November. He was taken to a local hospital where surgeons amputated his left leg to save his life.

Afghanistan's Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) estimates that over 1,400 Afghan civilians have lost their lives and hundreds of others have been wounded in armed hostilities, aerial strikes, suicide attacks and improvised explosions in the past 11 months. Children are believed to be among the main victims.

Posted: 6.48pm Tuesday 27 November 2007
Stumbling into more war in Afghanistan
by Simon Assaf
The Taliban are on the verge of overrunning Kabul, they control over half of Afghanistan and are fast becoming the only legitimate power in the country. These are the conclusions of a study released last week by The Senlis Council – a right wing think tank.
In its report, Stumbling in Chaos: Afghanistan On the Brink, Senlis claims that “the security situation has reached crisis proportions. The Taliban has proven itself to be a truly resurgent force. Its ability to establish a presence throughout the country is now proven beyond doubt.”
According to the Senlis research, the insurgents now control “54 percent of Afghanistan’s land mass” and “exercise a significant amount of psychological control, gaining more and more political legitimacy in the minds of the Afghan people who have a long history of shifting alliances and regime change.
“The insurgency now controls vast swathes of unchallenged territory including rural areas, some district centres, and important road arteries,” the report warns.
The failure of the occupation lay in its broken promise to rebuild Afghanistan’s shattered economy, tactics that result in the mass killing of innocent people and a failure to hold areas that have been conquered.

Yeah, I can see how things are soooo much better now than it was before.
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 364
view profile
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 1:39:06 PM

It's obvious to me you didn't even read the post you cited. If you had you would
have noticed it's not about Afghanistans oil reserves, but about the strategic
position the country occupies. If you want to retain any credibility at all,
read the complete post, and apply your (obviously limited) reasoning powers before you spout off.

Really..... you want to bring back the McCarthy years? Karl Marx? You're a joke.
The facts are there, and if someone with your alleged education can't see them
it's a good indication of how brainwashed the masses truly are.

I understand the US needs support at this time to help prop up its tottering
hegemony over the region.
I question whether we should continue to help them, or concentrate our efforts on helping the Afghan people.

Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 365
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/27/2007 7:52:22 PM
"Yeah, I can see how things are sooo much better now than it was before"

Interesting post...Its a shame people cant handle the truth...But their personal baggage and need to be a heroic rescuer supersedes any real desire for help or ability to deal with whats really happening here...That would require a change in their perception of how things really are in Afghanistan and putting their own uncomfortable feelings on hold... ...This war is so much about ego trips and overcontrolling behaviors and people needing to feel good about themselves in the midst of the terrible evil the USA is doing in killing and maiming others for the sake of "liberation",the code word for oil profits.....Otherwise they would have advocated for stamping out domestic violence as the root of the problem decades ago... The book "When Society Becomes An Addict" by Anne Wilson Schaef sure is making alot of sense now...It makes my head spin thinking how fast the US govt. is looking at Afghanistan with dollar signs in their eyes and a cash cow all ready to be invaded by our troops....The graves of all the dead Iraqis arent even cold yet and the US govt. is already out on the hunt for fertile ground to sink their profits...As long as they can continue to convince the public of the propaganda.....

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"...Sinclair Lewis
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 366
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 5:12:03 AM

Well if you really want to get technical, the original root of Islamic terror date back to the crusades. The next big problem occurred when the Brits and French divided up the middle east with no regard for tribal sovereignty or religious differences.

Very true. I'm well aware of the history of religious warfare. That's why I only referred to the US in my remarks. Europe has MUCH more to answer for when it comes to Middle East involvement than America. By comparison, we're extreme newcomers.

Gentalltheway, I can understand your hate for Bush because of the debacle in Iraq, but to constantly imply the Bush administration somehow "missed" 9-11 and should have "prevented" it is complete nonsense.

Both the Bush Sr and the Clinton adminstrations avoided strongly confronting al Qaeda and standing firm against terrorism. The American intelligence community "as a whole" simple didn't understand the full extent of the threat; their communication sharing and coordination were also woefully inadequate to deal with it before 9-11.

You also realize the Bush administration was only in office for a few months when 9-11 struck, right? They were still filling staff positions for crissakes? To level charges that they were asleep at the wheel (or even more aggravating, that they "knew" exactly 9-11 was going to happen and "willfully" obstructed attempts at stopping it) is petty Monday-morning quarterbacking and complete fantasy.

~ Mo
Joined: 11/13/2006
Msg: 367
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 5:32:25 AM

“We are there at the request of the Afgahn [Afghan] government”.

So that was an invitation we received via airmail on 9/11?

See UN resolution below :

Resolution 1510 (2003), Adopted Unanimously, Urges Measures to Fulfil
Mandate of Force; Situation Said to Remain Threat to Peace and Security

The Security Council this afternoon authorized expansion of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan to allow for maintenance of security outside the capital, Kabul, for international personnel engaged in reconstruction and humanitarian efforts.

Determining that the situation in Afghanistan still constituted a threat to international peace and security, the Council unanimously adopted resolution 1510 (2003) and, acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, authorized the Member States participating in the security assistance force to take all necessary measures to fulfil its mandate. That mandate (which was to expire on 20 December) was also extended for a period of 12 months.

The ISAF was initially authorized to provide security in Kabul in resolution 1386 (2001) for a period of six months starting on 20 December 2001. That authorization has been extended regularly. The same resolution also endorsed the Agreement on provisional arrangements in Afghanistan pending the re-establishment of permanent government institutions, signed in Bonn, Germany, by parties concerned on 5 December 2001, the so called “Bonn Agreement”. That Agreement provided for progressive expansion of the ISAF to other urban centres and other areas beyond Kabul.

In a letter to the Secretary-General of 10 October (document S/2003/986), the representative of Afghanistan wrote that, notwithstanding the considerable progress made in providing security in Kabul and surrounding areas, thanks to ISAF, the security situation in various parts of the country remained relatively unstable and impeded further progress in reconstruction and development. His Government, therefore, requested the Council to consider expanding the mandate of ISAF in Afghanistan, in full coordination with the Afghan authorities in Kabul

When Karzai was elected president he also reiterated the need for UN assistance both for security and humanitarian aid.

It is interesting that many detractors will scoff and say that Karzai is a puppet of the US and yet he has been vocal against some of the US policies.

On February 11, 2005, in an interview with the Oxford International Review, Karzai criticizes the role the U.S. played in empowering the Taliban to take control in Afghanistan. He claims he spent many years before the 9/11 attacks warning embassies about the threat, but the West failed to respond, an act of “neglect, selfishness and short-sightedness." While he highlights the key role the United States and other donors have played in rebuilding and developing Afghanistan, his tone is not without bitterness. “It’s just that we could have done all this before September 11th. We could have had these improvements here and the Twin Towers...We could have stopped terrorism before it reached you.”

There is no doubt that the US screwed up and Bush is a bit of a buffoon. But deserting the afghani people at this point in their history to rebound back to the past will not make things better. This is a imperfect world but there are some very well meaning people doing their best under extreme circumstances.

gentalltheway.....your news reports regarding children being increasingly affected is certainly distressing and sadly true. If you read the whole article you will see that it is the Taliban who are targetting children. Girls in particular because they don't believe they should be in schools. They target doctors and teachers who are often involved with children. What this shows is a greater need for security....not less.
Joined: 3/22/2007
Msg: 368
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 5:58:22 AM
That’s my point exactly Squirrley,

You now believe the reason we invaded Afghanistan was "at their request" two years after we invaded.
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 369
view profile
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 9:37:01 AM
Gentalltheway, I can understand your hate for Bush because of the debacle in Iraq, but to constantly imply the Bush administration somehow "missed" 9-11 and should have "prevented" it is complete nonsense.

Both the Bush Sr and the Clinton adminstrations avoided strongly confronting al Qaeda and standing firm against terrorism. The American intelligence community "as a whole" simple didn't understand the full extent of the threat; their communication sharing and coordination were also woefully inadequate to deal with it before 9-11.

You got to be kidding! You are defending a government who is 100% responsible for 911 by REFUSING to act on solid intelligence? Did you even read the FBI and CIA reports? They had names, the plan, targets and even dates of the attack! To write “as a whole simple didn't understand the full extent of the threat” is simply non sense! The CIA and FBI understood! Intelligence agencies from around the world understood! Are you saying that the Bush league are complete morons? If yes, you would be dead wrong!

The CIA could’ve captured or killed Bin Laden 10 times BEFORE 911. 10 TIMES!!! Jesus...what does it take for some Americans to understand that they were fooled???

Bin Laden Expert Steps Forward
Ex-CIA Agent Assesses Terror War In 60 Minutes Interview

In a letter to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees earlier this year, Scheuer says his agents provided the U.S. government with about ten opportunities to capture bin Laden before Sept. 11, and that all of them were rejected.

One of the last proposals, which he described to the 9/11 Commission in a closed-door session, involved a cruise missile attack against a remote hunting camp in the Afghan desert, where bin Laden was believed to be socializing with members of the royal family from the United Arab Emirates.

Scheuer wanted to level the entire camp. "The world is lousy with Arab princes," says Scheuer. "And if we could have got Osama bin Laden, and saved at some point down the road 3,000 American lives, a few less Arab princes would have been OK in my book."

All of them rejected??? WHY??? Again, Bush turned his back on the country so he could use 911 as an excuse to move forward with the Caspian sea pipeline project. Proof is in the pudding and I just served you a few more bowls of it. The problem was that he thought that it would be easy just as he thought Iraq would be as well. What a mistake that turned out to be.

Today, NATO is stuck in Afghanistan with little hope that they will be able to turn things around unless they can double the amount of men in place as the Taliban are getting stronger every year thanks to the bombing innocent civilians. No wonder why Karzai is doubling efforts to have peace talks with the Taliban even to the point of offering positions within the government.

As I wrote before, the big problem that NATO will face eventually is an economic one as most countries involved will just not be able to afford to be present in Afghanistan for many more years.

You also realize the Bush administration was only in office for a few months when 9-11 struck, right? They were still filling staff positions for crissakes?

A few months? 2 months is a few months! He was in for nearly 8. Staff positions after 8 months? Which ones…private secretaries? Still trying to find excuses huh? Bush had a full cabinet from day one and I do believe that in regards to security, the CIA and FBI were already active and in place…right? I very seriously doubt that some missing staff positions at the time were that important to security to start with.
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 370
view profile
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 10:00:59 AM

It is interesting that many detractors will scoff and say that Karzai is a puppet of the US and yet he has been vocal against some of the US policies.

That’s politics 101 for you.

Without NATO in Afghanistan, Karzai wouldn’t even be found remotely close to the country. He would be back with Unocal.

Karzai’s government has been questioned from the start and sure enough, following every steps of NATO (kissing butt) would be a sure sign of weakness hence the need for him to make the news once in a while showing some sort of leadership. This is well controlled I assure you. To criticize a super power is a definite sign of leadership anywhere in the world so can you imagine the effect it has on Afghans who hates the USA? If you think that Karzai has full control over what’s going on in the country, you better think again. Simply put... No NATO = No Karzai.

But deserting the afghani people at this point in their history to rebound back to the past will not make things better

No one knows really. Thinking that it will be worst is only a personal opinion. You have to bear in mind that since 2001, violence is growing every year. 2007 alone went up 25% compared to 2006. And now the Taliban are gaining more and more grounds not to mention obviously being backed by Pakistanis so 2008 is not looking peachy right now if nothing is done to promote peace talks.

Also, I cannot support the US trickeries by having NATO fighting to help promote the pipeline. If you think that the US government cares about Afghans civilians, you are sadly mistaken. The US fooled us in to this game simply to have other countries investing money and lives with one goal in mind, the Caspian sea pipeline. The US used 911 to jump on a country that never threatened or attack the US. The main issue with the Taliban was that they refused the pipeline. Well actually, they didn’t really as they ask for more than the US government offered monetarily wise.

Bin Laden? Come on! Trillions of dollars in a war supposedly caused by one man and they never caught him? Here’s the sad truth...they never wanted too catch him and it has been proven time and time again by the refusal of BUSH himself to order Bin Laden dead. Even the CIA had Laden in a corner and could’ve killed him...not once but 10 times before 911 and every time Bush did not allow the kill! Why??? The answer is quite obvious to me.

If the Taliban would’ve accepted the offer from the US in regards to the pipeline, Bin Laden wouldn’t even been mentioned in the deal.

If you read the whole article you will see that it is the Taliban who are targetting children.

The report mentioned one child was hung for having US dollars on him. Horrible of course! Question is, was it really the Taliban? Don’t get me wrong here as I am not defending them at all. It’s just that I read reports every week about the parents themselves killing their own children. A hell of a lot of them are extremists and to turn that around, to change that mentality will take a lot more than 6 years of war.
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 371
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 10:37:17 AM
"Was it really the Taliban?"

Its interesting because often one cant distinguish over there between who is the Taliban and who isnt...Sometimes the Taliban is one's weird uncle with whom you dont socialize much with but would never "rat on" to the USA....So those "Taliban" remain hidden from the USA and the Afghan public and free to continue their sexual and physical and emotional abuse, especially on women and girls...War, instability, poverty, and violence in a country creates alot of frightened extremists....Most of those extremists have families that include women and girls.....Come to think of it, it really isnt that much different over here...Only the "Taliban" are abusive religious fundamentalists here in the USA.....And the USA cant ferret them out any sooner or more efficient than they can in Afghanistan...
Joined: 11/13/2006
Msg: 372
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 4:17:44 PM

You now believe the reason we invaded Afghanistan was "at their request" two years after we invaded.

Now you are being silly. Of course the Taliban government didnt request assistance with security and humanitarian aid. And of course we all know that the US and the Brits invaded and toppled the regime. If you are trying to be obtuse, you are making a good job of it.

The UN established the ISAF in 2001 but they didn't take over full control from the US until 2006. The initial force consisted of roughly 3,300 British, 2,300 Canadian, 1,963 from the Netherlands, 290 from Denmark, 300 from Australia, and 150 from Estonia. Their focus is to form Provincial Reconstruction Teams. It now consists of about 35,500 personnel. Thirty-seven different nations have contributed troops to this military force. This is the force that is providing security for the reconstruction and humanitarian effort.

As for Karzai, please show credible proof that he worked for Unocal.

Several sources, most notably the documentary film Fahrenheit 9/11, have reported that Karzai once worked as a consultant for the oil company Unocal. Spokesmen for both Unocal and Karzai have denied any such relationship. The claim appears to have originated in the December 9, 2001 issue of the French newspaper Le Monde. Some have suggested that Karzai was confused with U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad.


On December 6, 2001, the leading French newspaper Le Monde published an article stating that Hamid Karzai, who later became the head of Afghanistan's provisional government and then president of Afghanistan, had "acted, for while, as a consultant for the American oil company Unocal, at the time it was considering building a pipeline in Afghanistan." This statement is not true. Unocal spokesman Barry Lane stated that an exhaustive search of all the company's records made it clear that Mr. Karzai was "never a consultant, never an employee" of Unocal. This initial mistake by Le Monde has been repeated numerous times by other publications and websites, spreading the misinformation.
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 373
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media IS Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 4:39:55 PM
Humanitarian Country Profile

Background Last update: January 2007

Afghanistan, a mountainous country, has long been fought over because of its strategic location between the Middle East, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent. After more than two decades of civil war and conflict, combined with the worst drought in 30 years, there is widespread suffering and massive displacement of the population inside and outside Afghanistan.

The former Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979 and occupied the country for a decade before withdrawing under pressure from Mujahideen forces. In 1996 the Taliban regime took control over most parts of the country and imposed a strict form of Islam. Fighting continued among Afghan factions, most recently between the Taliban and opposition Northern Alliance forces. The international community, excluding Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, did not recognise the Taliban regime. After the 11 September attack on the United Sates in 2001 the US, aided by British forces, began an assault to defeat the Taliban.

After the fall of the regime, United Nations-brokered talks in December 2001 provided a framework for future Afghan governance, including an interim authority, elections and a multinational peacekeeping force for the capital, Kabul. In early December the same year, Pashtun tribal leader Hamid Karzai was appointed by a UN-led coalition to head the interim government.

Peace and security
In 2005, Taliban and other anti-government forces expanded their insurgency in the predominantly Pashtun areas in southern Afghanistan. It was also the deadliest year for US forces and their coalition allies in Afghanistan and more than 1,500 Afghan civilians died.

Armed clashes between rival factions decreased in 2005, but in many areas warlords and their troops continue to engage in arbitrary arrests, illegal detentions, kidnapping, extortion, torture and murder, extrajudicial killings of criminal suspects, forced displacement, and rape of women, girls and boys, according to Human Rights Watch.

During the Soviet occupation and the Taliban period, one-third of the population fled Afghanistan. Neighbouring Pakistan and Iran provided refuge for more than six million refugees. Afghanistan is the world's leading source of refugees. Since 1988, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has channelled more than US$1 billion in multilateral assistance to Afghan refugees and vulnerable persons inside Afghanistan.

Many refugees began returning to the country in November 2001 after the fall of the Taliban. Since the office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) began its voluntary repatriation programme for Afghanistan in 2002, it has helped more than 3.5 million Afghans to return - 2.7 million from Pakistan and 800,000 from Iran. However, according to UNHCR on Afghanistan, an estimated 3.5 million refugees are still residing in Pakistan and Iran. There are also still 150,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs) in Afghanistan, the majority living in the south.

IRIN photo gallery on refugees

Democracy and governance
Until 2001, Afghanistan was an internationally isolated country under Taliban rule. The regime collapsed after US strikes starting in October 2001.

A presidential election took place in October 2004. Karzai was elected president with 55 percent of the vote and in 2005 Afghanistan had its first parliamentary election in 30 years. In some remote areas, there are still no real government structures or activity, only warlords.

Afghanistan ranked 117 out of 158 in Transparency International's 2005 corruption index, scoring 2.5 out of a possible 10.

Freedom House, a media watchdog, describes the press in Afghanistan as "not free" (2005 country report on Afghanistan by Freedom House). However, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, the Afghan press has improved after democratic advances in 2004 resulted in stronger constitutional protection for freedom of expression and the media. Radio is Afghanistan's most accessible medium for news and information. Outside Kabul, press freedom conditions are varied and in rural areas more limited. Many practise self-censorship or avoid writing about sensitive issues such as Islam, national unity, or crimes committed by specific warlords.

Under the Taliban regime television and print media were banned. Women were not allowed to work, but since 2002 progress has been seen. There are now some female reporters and newsreaders but they still face dangers.

The country is highly dependent on farming and raising livestock. The major food crops produced are corn, rice, barley, wheat, vegetables, fruit and nuts. The biggest industrial crops are cotton, tobacco, madder, castor beans, and sugar beets. The major sheep product exports are wool and prized Karakul skins.

Afghanistan is rich in natural resources. There are numerous mineral and precious stone deposits, as well as natural gas and as yet untapped oil reserves. But as the largest producer of opium poppies, drug trafficking provides the biggest income source. According to the UN World Drug Report 2004 ( Afghanistan produces three-quarters of the world's illicit opium. Current growth projections for the legal economy are only 10 percent a year.

The most recent UN Development Programme Human Development Index ranks Afghanistan at 173 out of 178 countries worldwide.

Afghanistan has a population of 27.7 million (2003). The population growth rate is 3.9 percent a year according to the UN population fund (UNFPA). Fertility rates are high at 6.8 children per woman. Infant, child and maternal mortality rates are very high. The maternal mortality ratio, for instance, is 1,900 deaths per 100,000 live births - one of the highest in the world.

Most Afghans belong to the Pashtun (Pathan), Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara, Turkmen, and Aimak ethnic groups. The official languages are Pashtu and Dari, spoken by 85 percent of the people. Pashtu is the native tongue of the Pashtuns; Dari is a Persian dialect. Turkmen and Uzbek are spoken widely in the north.

About 99 percent of the population is Muslim, and of these about 84 percent are Sunni Muslims and 15 percent Shia Muslims.

Development indicators
According to the World Food Programme, half the population is living below the poverty line. Infant mortality was 165 per 1,000 live births in 2004, compared with 168 per 1,000 live births in 1990. Life expectancy in Afghanistan is 43 for women and 43.3 for men (2003) and is at least 20 years lower than all neighbouring countries and just over six years lower than the average for the least developed countries, as defined by the UNDP.

Afghanistan's Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) indicators are below the majority of Sub-Saharan African countries, according to the UNDP.

In 2004, Afghanistan became the 191st signatory to the MDGs.

UNDP on Afghanistan

UNDP on Afghanistan with focus on poverty reduction

UNDP on Afghanistan with focus on the Millennium Goals

Afghanistan Information Management Service

Afghanistan is reforming the education system, including schools, universities, vocational training institutions and non-formal education. According to UNDP, four million children have enrolled in school since the fall of the Taliban regime. Nearly 40 percent are girls. The UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) estimates that only 51.9 percent of Afghan men over the age of 15 and 21.9 percent of women in the same age-group can read and write. The Literacy and Non-formal Education Development in Afghanistan project (LAND AFGHAN) was launched with the signing of an agreement between UNESCO and Afghanistan in 2003 to fill part of the education gap that resulted from war.

UNESCO on Afghanistan and the Literacy Project

Some 57 percent of Afghans are younger than 18 years. Afghanistan's infant and under-five mortality rates are among the highest in the world. Diarrhoea, respiratory infections, malaria and malnutrition are common deadly threats.

There are an estimated 8,000 child soldiers in the country. Child kidnapping and trafficking are common in the northern and northeastern regions. Many children are seized for their income-generating abilities and end up being exploited in Pakistan or Gulf States.

Primary-school enrolment rates have increased tenfold for girls and by two-thirds for boys since 2001 but there is a large gender gap in school enrolment; in many provinces, girls rarely attend school at all.

Afghanistan's health status is among the poorest in the world. Much of the population lacks access to basic healthcare and the shortage of health staff is acute. An impressive immunisation drive has virtually eradicated polio just five years after the disease caused more disability than land mines. A measles campaign has saved nearly 30,000 lives. Access to safe water in 2000 was just 17 percent, according to UNICEF.

The most recent figures from HRW show that one woman dies every 30 minutes due to complications in pregnancy and childbirth.

See: World Health Organization

There is little data on the HIV/AIDS situation in Afghanistan and according to UNDP, only 11 cases have been reported. The main mode of transmission is believed to be through sharing infected drug needles and blood transfusion. The WHO estimates that only half of the 44 medical facilities that transfuse blood are able to screen it for HIV.

Food security
After decades of war, Afghanistan is making progress but poverty is widespread. Afghanistan's infrastructure has been virtually destroyed, its human-resource base severely depleted and its social capital eroded. A 2003 nationwide vulnerability assessment found that 3.5 million Afghans are extremely poor and chronically food insecure. The country has suffered severe droughts. Another three million are seasonally food insecure. In total, the UN estimates that seven million people are vulnerable to famine.

Gender issues
The complete exclusion of women from social, economic and public life under the Taliban has had a severe impact on the country. There has been some progress since the fall of the Taliban, but Afghanistan still has a long way to go. The constitution promulgated by Karzai in 2004 ensures that the citizens of Afghanistan, whether man or woman, have equal rights and duties before the law and that any kind of discrimination among citizens is prohibited. According to HRW, progress has been slow and women still face disproportionate threats and violence. The constitution also guarantees a minimum of two seats per province in the national assembly to women.

Human rights
Afghanistan's past has been permeated by grave human rights violations, according to Amnesty International, but improvement has been seen since the establishment of the new government. However, poverty, lawlessness, factional fighting, repression and insecurity increase significantly with distance from city centres, usually where warlords dominate.The Bonn Agreement provided for the establishment of an Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission in June 2002.

Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Office for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees


Quoted the above from IRIN, a source quoted by another poster earlier.

Progress being made ? Yes there has been and like most of us have pointed out, there is a lot more work to be done. IRIN shows there are many problems with Afghanistan, but not in one case do they claim things are worse now than when the Taliban ran the country, in fact the report show quite the opposite.

It shows in fact that progress has been made, also like we all agree, that more needs to be done.

It also shows that there is potential for economic stability in Afghanistan, that there is natural resources. So what? That is good for the people of Afghanistan, and is indicative that their economic dependancy on the opium trade has a very good chance of ending one day.

Now that Afghanistan is a democracy, growing slowly back to self rule without the oppressive Taliban manning the helm, I hope they do find lots of oil there . For Afghanistan will be a light in that part of the world for progressiveness.

Islamic ciuntries this week, a British teacher has been sentemced to 60 lashes and 6 months in jail ( Sudan ) for naming a teddy bear Mohammid , where such " moderate states like Saudi Arabia has sentenced a gang raped woman to 200 lashes and 6 months in jail , the mid east needs a country that will be progressive. I truly would love to see a true ally like them, find oil, lots of it.

I would much prefer buying oil from them than our so called " freinds", " moderates" like Saudi Arabia. Personally, would love to never have to deal with that particualr country in any way shape or form . Want to talk conpiracy? Take a look at the country that produced most of the 9/11 hi jackers.

Mind you, the pipe line as already pointed out, would not be for supplying the US with oil .
 Intimacy only
Joined: 6/2/2007
Msg: 374
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/28/2007 9:21:59 PM
I understand that the little Afghan girls are desperate and will give it up easily. Around the world with an 18 year old for 20 bucks. Lots of positive things in
Afghanistan. And the media is hiding it -- the ********.
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 375
view profile
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/29/2007 2:30:17 AM
If that's your idea of humour, take it elsewhere.
What kind of slime would post something like that on a serious thread?
You need to give your head a shake.

The women there have enough problems without people like you
denigrating them because of their poverty.
A very low class comment, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Msg: 376
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/29/2007 6:42:36 AM
^^^ I agree...there was nothing funny about that disgusting comment but consider the source.

RE: Bin Laden and the contentian that he was and some consider still is...a CIA operative hence the reason he hasn't been caught or killed.

Here is a quote from Peter Bergen, who has met Bin Laden and has been to Afghanistan many times. A journalist who is very critical of the Bush administration. He recently said " Bush's decision to operate outside the boundaries of U.S. and international law has been worse than simply unnecessary; it has also actively harmed American interests. " I quote that to show that he strives to remain impartial.

Here is a recent Q&A where he is asked about why Bin Laden hasn't been caught and how the CIA is involved.

How is it the richest country with the most powerful military machine ever to walk this Earth cannot locate and eliminate a single man?
Steven Harper, Arlington, Washington

BERGEN: A good response to that is Eric Rudolph, the Atlanta Centennial Olympic Park bomber, evaded capture for five years and he was captured about five miles from where he was living in the first place -- meaning if you have somebody who is motivated and you have a support network and you don't make stupid mistakes, you can evade capture anywhere inside the United States.

Bin Laden, of course, isn't in the United States. He's most likely in Pakistan, where the U.S. military isn't even allowed to go in. So, the problem of finding one person is much harder than you might imagine.

If it's true that bin Laden once worked for the CIA, what makes you so sure that he isn't still?
Anne Busigin, Toronto, Canada

BERGEN: This is one of those things where you cannot put it out of its misery.

The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.

The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.

I would like to know if America is any closer to finding the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden today than we were before?
Michele S., Slidell, Louisiana

BERGEN: The one moment where the U.S. government knew where he was was the battle of Tora Bora. And now he's believed to be in the North-West Frontier province of Pakistan. There is a sense that he might be in a northern area of the North-West Frontier province in an area called Chitral.

So, there is a little bit better sense of where he might be, but this is a big area and he's not making any obvious mistakes. But the short answer is: Other than the battle of Tora Bora, there haven't been really any good opportunities since 9/11 to get him.
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 377
view profile
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/29/2007 11:30:32 AM

As for Karzai, please show credible proof that he worked for Unocal.

Proof? Unless Karzai or Unocal approves the allegations, how can anyone get proof? Even if someone went through Unocal’s files, I seriously doubt that they would find anything under Karzai’s name.

Funny though how someone who claims that he never had ties with Unocal has been seen on numerous occasions within the same group of people in the past. Not to mention very close ties with the CIA and GWB.

Summer 1997: Two groups of Unocal officials from the U.S. visited Afghanistan. They were led by Unocal vice president, Chris Taggart. He said that Khodainoor Mandar Khail, met with them, representing himself as the president of the Afghan National Oil Company.
Khail, who retained his job under Bush appointee, Karzai, said he accompanied both Unocal delegations to the southern city of Kandahar, where the Taliban's reclusive leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, made all the important decisions.

Wellll…it doesn’t say he was working for him. But why was he there in the first place? Serving coffee on the flight?

According to Afghan, Iranian, and Turkish government sources, Hamid
Karzai, the interim Prime Minister of Afghanistan, was a top adviser
to the El Segundo, California-based UNOCAL Corporation which was
negotiating with the Taliban to construct a Central Asia Gas
(CentGas) pipeline from Turkmenistan through western Afghanistan to

They were probably mistaken.

Summer 1997: Two groups of Unocal officials from the U.S. visited
Afghanistan. They were led by Unocal vice president, Chris Taggart.
He said that Khodainoor Mandar Khail, met with them, representing
himself as the president of the Afghan National Oil Company.
Khail, who retained his job under Bush appointee, Karzai, said he
accompanied both Unocal delegations to the southern city of
Kandahar, where the Taliban's reclusive leader, Mullah Mohammed
Omar, made all the important decisions.
During these meetings, Unocal offered the Taliban 15 cents per 1,000
cubic feet for pipeline rights but courting a BP Amoco challenger,
Mullah Muhammad Omar wanted more. So Unocal asked Pakistan's ISI to
weigh in on the matter, recognizing that they were the substance
behind the Taliban. And ISI agent was immediately dispatched to the
United States. That officer was met by Robert Bigger Oakley, former
U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan during the first Bush administration
because Unocal had hired him as a consultant too.
Then to help seal the deal, Unocal hired Bush friend and former
Taliban leader, Hamid Karzai, adding him to the negotiating team.

For someone who claims never to worked for Unocal, sure seemed busy with them.

A Unocal spokesman denies it. "Karzai was never, in any capacity, an
employee, consultant or a consultant of a consultant," Barry Lane

Funny when you think that the same man also said:
Unocal also never had a plan to build a Caspian Sea pipeline.

Ouch!!! Was he drunk when he said that?

Karzai was denounced as a Consultant for Unocal by a well known French paper and in the film Fahrenheit 9/11. Now because of Karzai “possible” involvement with Unocal, I can definitely understand the need to deny it because it places him in an awkward situation. Saying so, even if he denied it, why didn’t he asked for a retraction from Le Monde and Michael Moore? Because of the implications, you would think that Karzai would take legal actions to force Le Monde and Moore to come up with an apology or slap with a huge lawsuit. Never happened! This tells me that Unocal and Karzai are not sure they could win hence not moving forward. Not to mention that it could become a very embarrassing situation for himself and everyone else implicated including Bush if it all came to a court of law.

For the reason mentioned above, I believe he was a consultant for Unocal and a player in the Bush games.

BERGEN: The one moment where the U.S. government knew where he was was the battle of Tora Bora

I remember that one quite clearly. The CIA asked for 800 rangers to block routes and capture Bin Laden. Request was denied...Again!
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 378
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/29/2007 3:30:20 PM
Gentalltheway, every American "should" be angry over the incompetence, beauracratic inertia, and petty, selfish turf wars within our government and intelligence services that led to the missed opportunities in dealing with 9-11 before it happened. But that’s FAR different from charging our government knew the details (the where and when of 9-11) and “actively” conspired to stop efforts to head it off.

Read Richard Clarke’s book. He was the top counterterrorism expert for both the Clinton and pre-9-11 Bush administrations, and hardly a Bush lover. He has no allegiance to Bush and has certainly never been a Bush administration mouthpiece. Nobody other than John O'Neill (FBI's leading expert on Al Qaeda) knew as much about bin Laden and al Qaeda.

Clarke was monumentally frustrated that no one in government took the threat of al Qaeda as seriously as he thought they should have (and that included BOTH Clinton and Bush). But nowhere does he speak of any government or CIA-FBI-NSA conspiracy where the highest echelons of government not only “knew” 9-11 was imminent, but “ordered” our military and intelligence services to let it happen. The whole argument is absurd? It’s the same illogic the 9-11 conspiracy loonies use to charge 9-11 was a hoax?

Read George Tenet’s book. Remember, he was CIA chief under Clinton and Bush, and hardly a Bush supporter. He acknowledges the Bush administration was unduly preoccupied with Hussein and Iraq, and the obsession blinded them to other possibilities. Like Clarke, he would have needed to be intimately involved in any government cover up because, obviously, any directive from Bush’s inner circle regarding intelligence matters would have hardly passed his eyes unnoticed. But again, he never charges Bush knew 9-11 was going to happen and ordered a conspiracy of silence.

Right now, I’m reading a meticulously researched account of the events leading up to 9-11 by a Pulitzer Prize-winning author (the book is The Looming Tower, read it) and you WOULD NOT BELIEVE the foul ups, inter-agency jealousies, and heartbreaking insularity our intelligence services (CIA, FBI, and NSA) operated under before 9-11. Just one example: the NSA refused to share its monitoring of bin Laden’s satellite phone calls to other agencies, criminally blinding the chance that analysts in other agencies could put scattered pieces of intelligence together to form proper conclusions before 9-11.

There were many other instances of duplication of information by different agencies that wasted hundreds of manpower hours and millions of dollars. Why? Because there was no WILL to share.

This was “institutionalized” behavior at its worst, indicative of the heated competition between the services, and NOT some government conspiracy headed by Bush, or Clinton, or anyone else.

9-11 changed all that, and “hopefully” our intelligence services are working with less barriers and much more transparency. That may be one reason we haven’t had a large-scale domestic terrorist attack in this country since 9-11.

There was no solid evidence back then just as there's none today about Bin Laden and Al Quaeda being involved in 911. Well except from the word of the master and commander who by the way is a pitiful liar to start with.

Btw, I remember your quote above. Bin Laden just today issued another statement taking personal responsibility for 9-11.;_ylt=AnODrMN6MDr1YchcsT6__kKs0NUE
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 379
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/29/2007 6:15:20 PM
{ QUOTE " U.S. Dept of Labor Bureau of International Labor Affairs

INCIDENCE AND NATURE OF CHILD LABOR - Afghanistan is a country of origin and transit for children trafficked for the purposes of sexual exploitation, forced marriage, labor, domestic servitude, slavery, crime, and the removal of body organs. Since early 2003, there have been increasing reports of children reported as missing throughout the country. It is also reported that impoverished Afghan families have sold their children into forced sexual exploitation, marriage, and labor.

Bur of Democracy, Human Rights & Labor - Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2006

CHILDREN - According to a recent UNHCR report, the practice of using young boys as objects of pleasure by commanders, tribal leaders, and others was more than a rare occurrence. Such relations were often coercive and opportunistic in that more influential, older men were taking advantage of the poor economic situation of some families and young males, leaving them with little choice. There were also a few documented cases of abduction of young boys for sexual exploitation by commanders. The MOI recorded at least 130 cases of rape of young boys during the year. There were no child labor laws or other legislation to protect child abuse victims.

TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS – There were continued reports of poor families promising young girls in marriage to satisfy family debts. There were a number of reports that children, particularly from the south and southeast, were trafficked to Pakistan to work in factories, or internally for commercial sexual exploitation in brothels.

Bur of Democracy, Human Rights & Labor - Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005

TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS - Trafficking victims, especially those trafficked for sexual exploitation, faced societal discrimination, particularly in their home villages, and the risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases.

At year's end according to the AIHRC, authorities repatriated 317 children from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Zambia, and Oman. The Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs, with the assistance of UNICEF, set up a transit center to assist with these returns, and other agencies such as the AIHRC helped with the children's reunification and reintegration.

ECPAT: Fifth Report on implementation of the Agenda for Action [DOC]

[B] COUNTRY UPDATES – AFGHANISTAN – Afghanistan has conducted surveys in four camps in Pakistan, and discovered that many children have become involved in prostitution. Many children have ended up on the streets where they often lack basic education and live in extreme poverty. Additionally, many of them are in deep depression and addicted to opium. Save the Environment - Afghanistan is therefore alerting attention towards these children who are all highly vulnerable to commercial sexual exploitation. Also within the borders of Afghanistan, children as young as eight and nine have been reported to be prostituted in Taliban-controlled areas.

Report Documents Poverty And Social Misery In Afghanistan

Children have been the primary victims of more than two decades of conflict. Of the estimated 1.5 million people killed during this period, some 300,000 were children. Abduction and trafficking in children is now a rapidly growing threat, with the most common forms of trafficking being child prostitution, forced labor, slavery, servitude and the removal of body organs.

Afghanistan: Report

TRAFFICKING AND EXPLOITATION - Female trafficking for sexual purposes is a thriving business in Afghanistan. Girls are purchased from within Afghanistan and trafficked through Pakistan for destinations in the Gulf, Iran, and elsewhere to be wives or prostitutes. According to reports from the field, young boys are also trafficked through channels leading to the Gulf area. Some children and adolescents remain in Pakistan, where distinct brothels exist for Afghans. The children most likely to be trafficked for sexual purposes are girls, those from tribal groups and ethnic minorities, stateless persons and refugees, and those living in poverty. Other incidents of trafficking of children for sexual purposes have been reported." END OF QUOTE}

Unfortunately, the poster who refferred to getting a young Afghans girl for 20 bucks, showed very poor taste, but did make a point.

The selling of young girls and boys to be exploited for sexual reasons does go on. It should also be a huge concern for us in the west. Whether or not the problem has grown since the Taliban have been disposed or is less, is arguable, as records were not kept prior to the Taliban being displaced. It really does not matter as far as I am concerned, so wont argue whether it is less now than previously, for now we are there and should be taking every step to stamp out this abomination.

From what I have been able to acertain, most of this involves trafficing of children to other countries, will be happy to be told differently though if some one is more knowledgeable .

Although the above quote mentions Pakistan more than Saudi Arabia, I did see a documentary about a year ago that dealt with boys being sent to Saudi Arabia for sexual expolitation from Afghanistan. Wish I could remember what show it was, perhaps some one here has a better memory and saw it as well?

Please keep in mind though, this is not new, has been ongoing for a long time. Most prostitution involving foreigners, in Kabul where NATO is headquratered has involved "Chinese restauraunts", Chinese woman are shipped in and are used in brothels that are so called restaurants.

Just recently, the Afghan police cracked down on those, and there was a raid that was quite substantial resulting in many woman being deported back to China. I have no idea if it involved children ( dont recall seeing any reference to that, but could be wrong) , but expolitation of Chinese woman is taking place. How much of it is " voluntary" or not? I have no idea.

This is a area that we should be aware of, take steps to wipe it out. To me, it doesnt matter if the exploiters are Taliban , Afghan allies or possibly wetern . Pedophiles have always been able to exploit war, disaster, and its time we put every effort possible into wiping out human trafficcing , once and for all.

I know the RCMP are very active working , training Afghan police, I do not know if this area is a priority or not but am sure going to find out. It should be, and hope that monetary considerations are not limiting our resolve to wipe expolitation of chidren for sexual purposes is a factor in any way.

All of us here should do every thing we can , to ensure that our governements are doing any, and all they can to interdict and stop it. It is something that I have overlooked, while the poster brought it to my attention in a very distasteful way, he has accomplished in making a point we should all be concerned about.

Countries that look the other way, allow these abominations to take place, should be dealt with by us with out any mercy. To me, that includes " so called allies " like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Screw the politcs when it comes to this topic, come down hard on them in every way we can.
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