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 Merc4aGoodCause
Joined: 2/10/2006
Msg: 55
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not ReportingPage 3 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
"How is 9-11 connected to Afghanistan? It's an excuse to invade. As though two aluminum planes could bring town 3 towers. Even cutting through 4 inch thick support beams. Inside job. The perceived attack was to be an excuse to invade, then get into Iraq, for the oil. Blood for oil, and the administration is doing a bad job at it."

O yes everything in the world is such a conspiricy.

As for the media peole mix up the fact that the Media is more of a buisness than an intention to actually put out the new objectively.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 56
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 4:06:04 AM

How is 9-11 connected to Afghanistan? It's an excuse to invade.


Oh God, I didn't realize how clueless you really are until that statement, g_m_b. There are literally reams of information available that makes the connection all too clear and irrefutable. If you're one of these 9-11 conspiracy theorists or think it was all a hoax, we have no common ground to debate this because we're not even on the same page?
 childofgodus
Joined: 4/22/2007
Msg: 57
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 4:49:04 AM
sorry guys but it dosen;t change fact we are invaders of another country . freeing no one and making them like us . with a puppet king in place and another war next store , we as a country of bullys will give them mc donalds
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 58
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 11:00:03 AM
The education of girls is just a front to mask that they're there to get their hands on the oil and trading routs. Putting a kinder face of occupying a country and stealing it's recourses.

As for the towers, You really think aluminum and kerosene can clice through 4 inch thick steel? And to bring the whole building 'straight' down. If a terrorist would have been able to pull off 9-11, they would surly have wanted the buildings to fall over, like a tree, but no, these came straight down at the speed of gravity, with no slowing, as your pancake effect lie of a theory would dictate. 9-11 seems to be the best thing to happen to further empower the fascist government here in America. And I don't like conspiracy theories either, but this one has too many glaring truths. Kerosene and office furniture don't burn hot enough to melt or even weaken steel. Controlled explosions can be heard and seen. Thermate was used to slice through the steel skeleton. And the kicker, WTC 7 came down for no reason. America should smarten up and see that our corrupt government played it's people like a fiddle, to get the sheeple able to tolerate going to war.
 Always Smiling36
Joined: 1/3/2007
Msg: 59
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 2:07:07 PM

There are literally reams of information available that makes the connection all too clear and irrefutable. If you're one of these 9-11 conspiracy theorists or think it was all a hoax, we have no common ground to debate this because we're not even on the same page?


Indeed. Every conspiracy theory out there has been debunked, thoroughly.

Using a conspiracy theory to back your position as a reason against being there?
Hrrrm....
Honestly I do not believe that has any place in this debate.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 60
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 2:34:47 PM
Debunked by whom? The government or the same people who had a stake in it.

Look, it's impossible for a building to just come down, and that's what happened three times in one day from two planes. Next thing you know we're at war with a strategic part of the Middle East. As much as people want to feel that war there is a good thing, they're not critically thinking about how much money in oil is to be had there. Let alone with the arms sales. That's what America makes, war.

The news isn't reporting the plot to deceive the nation, that's where the real crime is, in the complacency in the lead up to war.

Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires, bankrupted the Russians, and now America is making the same mistake.
 Always Smiling36
Joined: 1/3/2007
Msg: 61
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 3:13:47 PM

Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires, bankrupted the Russians, and now America is making the same mistake.


I disagree. Its not just America there, it is NATO. Further, We are not there to supress and conquer. Quite the opposite. The majority of Afghans want us there. They want the Taliban gone. Our mission there cannot be campared to the Russian invasion. Its simply not the same thing.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071018.wafghanpoll1810/BNStory/Afghanistan/home



Poll shows Afghans want NATO troops to stay
ALAN FREEMAN

October 18, 2007 at 5:14 PM EDT

OTTAWA — Most Afghans approve of having NATO troops in their country and want them to stay to fight the Taliban and help rebuild the country.

A poll of Afghans by Environics Research on behalf of The Globe and Mail and the CBC, gives a snapshot of feelings in the country. Look for the full story at 10 p.m. EDT

Here are some of the polls findings:

• 60 per cent of Afghans believe the presence of foreign troops is positive; 22 per cent are ambivalent and 16 per cent said it was a bad thing. (The numbers were different for Kandahar, where Canadian forces are based. There, 57 per cent thought the troop presence was positive.)

• 64 per cent say the troops are doing a good job fighting the Taliban; 17 per cent say they're doing a bad job. (In Kandahar the figures are 58 and 27 per cent respectively.)

• 65 per cent across the country think NATO countries are doing a good job on reconstruction assistance; 15 per cent disagree. (In Kandahar, the numbers are 63 and 21 per cent.)

• 75 per cent of Afghans believe foreign forces are doing a good job in training the Afghan police; 9 per cent disagree. (In Kandahar, the numbers are 61 and 22 per cent.)

• In public awareness of the foreign presence, in all its aspects, Canada ranks fourth, with 46 per cent being aware of its presence, after the United States (95 per cent), Germany (63 per cent) and Britain (52 per cent). In Kandahar, Canada comes second with 58 per cent recognition, behind the United States, at 98 per cent.

• 53 per cent of Afghans have a very negative view of the Taliban, and 20 per cent have a somewhat negative view; 14 per cent have a positive view.

• On the future of their country, 40 per cent are optimistic, believing that with foreign assistance Afghanistan will defeat the Taliban; 19 per cent think the Taliban will prevail once foreign troops leave.

• A strong majority of Afghans (74 per cent nationwide and 85 per cent in Kandahar) support negotiations between the Karzai government and the Taliban.



Do you think if the same poll was conducted during the Soviet invasion the numbers would look anything like that?
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 62
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 7:56:49 PM
Absolutely agree.

Afghanistan had only known war for the 30 yrs before the Taliban consolidated its power, which they did with an iron fist, so of course any transition to a peaceful, normal government will take time, resources, a good plan, and a lot of patience. We may not succeed---with all their problems maybe the country is simply ungovernable?---but we have to try.

And we're not there to conquer and make the country a satellite, but to give the Afghan people a "chance" at an alternative that doesn't involve religious extremism or dictatorship.

I'd ask the critics what their plan would be and get only anti-American slogans and posturing; nothing constructive, positive, or meaningful. It seems people would rather bash the US and let Rome burn than roll up their sleeves and try to help.

Btw, there are many good sources of information regarding what we're trying to do in Afghanistan and the challenges we face. Here's one of the best......

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/afghanistan604/video_index.html

....another good source

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/canada-q-a.html

To the critics and America-haters, don't close your mind and listen to only the negative. Please, be fair.

And g_m_b, if you want to debate 9-11, I believe there are other threads already started for it. If not, start one. I'd be more than happy to enlighten. Btw, here's an excellent place to open your eyes and quit this delusion of a 9-11 conspiracy:
http://www.debunking911.com/
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 63
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 8:45:58 PM
It never fails to astond me that when a conservative quotes verifiable facts in a debate, as motownmaniac has done, the discussion just freezes - the liberals seem to disappear, then show up on another forum, spouting their foolishness and phony 'facts'. I suppose that's better than the name calling and abusiveness which often seems to be the way liberals handle losing an argument.
Where have 'get mad baby' and his ilk disappeared to this time? Then there's Akhenaton - he of the citations which look impressive but say very little, from the ones I read. Those would be 'phony facts' - true as far as they go, even impressive, but not really pertinent to the discussion at hand.
Great work motownmaniac.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 64
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/18/2007 11:16:46 PM
Before you thump your chest, drove cross state today. If you're pointing fingers and dictatorially labeling your opposition as
the liberals
, then is it right to say that you guys are the conservatives? Not that we want to taint conservatism. You have already declared early victory, that could be a trend. But not one to label, it isn't polite.

There is evidence that America had an economic motive for replacing the government in Afghanistan. Remember, Bush's is an oil man. The "war on terror" campaign is a distraction from a $2bn 1,500km pipeline to bring gas from Central Asia to the sub-continent.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2017044.stm
The leaders of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkmenistan have agreed to construct a $2bn 1,500km pipeline to bring gas from Central Asia to the sub-continent.

The project was abandoned in 1998 when a consortium led by US energy company Unocal withdrew from the project over fears of being seen to support Afghanistan's then Taliban government.


This is the real reason



... from the same article

Unocal has repeatedly denied it is interested in returning to Afghanistan despite having conducted the original feasibility study to build the pipeline.

The pipeline could eventually supply gas to India.

President Musharraf also said he was committed to a proposed gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan to India as it was in his country's economic interest.


The pieces come together. Guess who's next? War with whom?

The original post dealt with the happiness a contractor had building

I read this article today and it renforced my belief in the Afghanastan mission.
The media has a tremendous impact on public opinion, and they should be responsible enough to tell the whole story. At least if that happens the general public can form their opinions based off of the big picture, and not just the negative stuff that is going on. There is a lot more going on over there then just fighting the Taliban.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007/10/12/pf-4570008.html
The Toronto Sun promotes populist conservatism. Editorials promote individualism, self-reliance, the police, and a strong military and support for troops.


Though you're putting a happy face on war. Maybe I'm disgusted that we're behaving as a modern day version of Ancient Rome. But this smiling flag waving blind patriotism and while we in 2 wars for oil. Some people take the news from Limbaugh and Bill O without seeing they've been out-foxed. Some can look at the shadow and see that there's greed and domination behind "the big picture."
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 65
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 5:07:07 AM
G_M_B, I'm neither a hardcore conservative or liberal--there are precepts from both ideologies I agree with, and some I don't--but when it comes to 9-11 and Afghanistan I was definitely on the side of action, and NOT appeasement, amnesia, or ignoring/distorting facts for the sole purpose of avoiding dealing forcefully with a clear threat. This silly argument that the only reason we're in Afghanistan is because of a gas pipeline is laughable.

We were attacked even "before" 9-11 (African embassy bombings, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, to name just a few), and our reaction was tepid, feeble, and ineffective. I firmly believe we basically invited 9-11 by emboldening bin Laden and al Qaeda into translating their manifest hatred for America by taking that final, spectacular leap.

Maybe you wouldn't have taken military action in response, but at the time I can safely say you'd be in the vast minority. We also had practically universal global support when we took out the Taliban and destroyed the base from which the previous attacks were incubated, nurtured, planned, and launched.

There comes a time when you have to firmly and unequivocally stand up to your enemies. Reading your posts calls into question whether you know what a real enemy actually is?
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 66
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 6:20:38 AM
"The "war on terror" campaign is a distraction from a $2bn 1,500km pipeline to bring gas from Central Asia to the sub-continent."
Some distraction that is 'get mad baby' - even you caught it. How is it that this evil military/industrial/petroleum complex can't even hide something like this from an inquisitive public? (that's irony by the way, in case you missed it).
"Editorials promote individualism, self-reliance, the police, and a strong military and support for troops. "
Hey - you're saying those are bad things? Oh, wait - I forgot, liberals believe in having the government do everything for everybody, in reliance on the state, hate the police, and would prefer to gut the military and let karma and sweet thoughts fend off the threats we face in this world, on the belief that no one is bad, or a terrorist, they're just 'misunderstood'. Did you know that there is a socio-political theory that says that a people who depend on the government for their welfare is an easier society to govern? Yup, let's root out those hard to deal with individualists and take Friday afternoon off!
But I digress....India happens to be a rapidly growing economy, despite staggering poverty there. Easier access to oil would help that economy grow and alleviate some of the hunger and pain. Bu.. and just so you know, it won't happen overnigh, so don't be complaining about that next. And as for your comment about 'who's next' - you aren't proposing that there will be a war with India are you? That would make you - well, let's just say it's a pretty far stretch.
And no one is putting a happy face on war as you claim - but every cloud has its silver lining and you have to be one hell of a pessimist to deny that simple truth.
Let me end this rant with a comment towards your silly remark about domination:
When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush.
He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked
for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."
It became very quiet in the room.

I wish that people like you would recognize the value, the inestimable value, of the sacrifices that Americans (and Canadian, British et al) soldiers have made in advancing freedom in this world. It has been neither easy nor tidy, but the world is, without ANY doubt (if you're a thinking person that is), a better place because of these brave men and women. And you know, there were people just like you who argued that the US (Canada too) should stay out of WW2 - some even argued that Hitler was an ok guy. History has shown them to be the fools they were - with the internet, we can now do that much faster.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 67
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 6:26:49 AM
"Remember, Bush's is an oil man."

ok - you know, if Bush's business interests were a chicken farm or processing facility (pun intended as his ranch is in Texas), there would be cries from liberals that he was after the chickens running in the streets of the towns and villages of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Given that the price of oil has skyrocketed since this war, is anyone else tired of seeing the same lame fingers pointing out the same tired old argument about 'oil'? Is the US going to go to war with Russia over its northern oil reserves, or take over Canada (at least I'd get a green card then!) for the tar sands?
I doubt it, but years from now, we'll STILL be hearing about it from the usual suspects.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 68
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 8:13:24 AM
Putting stupid words in my mouth, you can't seem to help it though (that was sarcasm, but you're a writer, a bad one with a temper, so you must have been able to see that sarcasm coming).

War with India is stupid, and I am laughing at you for throwing it out there. It's Iran who is next. Noticing a pattern forming? Or don't you read the news? You just echo the conservative warmongering talking points like a good dittohead should. Bush's family is all about oil wealth.

Stop bringing up your pal Hitler, it stinks in this thread and it's a weak argument. Don't you know that Hitler references are to be avoided in forum posts?

Godwin’s Law dictates that:
as an on-line forum discussion topic becomes longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one

In other words, someone is bound to compare something to Hitler or Nazis when the number of replies to a forum discussion topic approaches 9999999999 (aka infinity minus one). When someone does this, they are said to have “Godwinned” the thread.

You are warmongers, advocating wars in countries who were no threat to us, and you ignore the glaringly obvious that we're there for oil. Who's paying you? "Mr. I Know Diplomats" I see you're an inside guy, who expects me to trust you when you say you owned a newspaper. Must have been a real Fair and Balanced paper. Who pays you to spout such nonsense.

There have been many wars since WW2, quit dry humping the memories of that war, look to Vietnam and other pointless wars for profit. Don't expect you to wise up though.

Tell me why people in the Middle East would hate us. What are we doing to countries in the Middle East, oh look, we're stealing their oil. If they hated us for our freedoms, why aren't they attacking Denmark or other countries who are truly freer than we are. Because we're stealing their oil, and imposing our cultural ideas. You see no problem with delivering freedom and democracy, don't you see that is just an excuse to be able to set up puppet governments. Man, you're a gullible bunch of warmongers.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 69
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 8:43:24 AM
Carlyle profit from Afghan war
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/12/02/BU172807.DTL

The Carlyle Group, as in a secretive Washington, D.C., investment firm managing some $14 billion in assets, including stakes in a number of defense- related companies.

Carlyle counts among its chieftains former Defense Secretary (and deputy CIA Director) Frank Carlucci, former Secretary of State James Baker and, most notably, former President George Bush.

Until October, the Carlyle Group also maintained financial ties with none other than the family of Osama bin Laden, but those links were severed when it was agreed that the relationship was becoming a tad embarrassing for all concerned.

Their defense holdings are quite extensive," said Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, a Washington public interest law firm. "Because of their investments, they are a major contractor for the Pentagon."

Among Carlyle's holdings is United Defense Industries, a maker of armed vehicles and weapons, which filed in October to raise up to $300 million in an initial public offering of its shares.

Judicial Watch filed suit last week to obtain documents shedding light on Carlyle business activities undertaken by President Bush's father, who reportedly met with bin Laden's family in Saudi Arabia at least twice prior to the Sept. 11 attacks. He also has had dealings with a variety of foreign governments.

"The appearance is awful," Fitton said. "For the father of our current president to be doing business with foreign governments, there is a clear conflict of interest."
 nefarious101
Joined: 7/25/2007
Msg: 70
Positive Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 12:10:55 PM
Appears a lot of people can't tollerate positive news.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 71
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 5:32:33 PM
"If they hated us for our freedoms, why aren't they attacking Denmark or other countries who are truly freer than we are."
Ok - let's try Spain for beginners - al Queda attacked them just prior to their elections. The party which appeared likely to win, which supported the war, lost the election to the party promising appeasement, when Spaniards decided the cost was too high for their tastes. Spain, according to some reports I've read, was a front line player in the war on terrorism.
And since it was you who mentioned Denmark - perhaps you've forgotten the fuss over the cartoon images in a Danish newspaper in 2006, which involved some pretty serious threats. Try Kinsley's article in the Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020901432.html

So, with those two attacks, they've come up against freedom of speech and democracy, the ultimate freedom. Sorry 'get mad', you lose on this one. Your grasp of the facts is not only slippery, it's non-existent.
And please, the next time you try to come up with a devastating smash, could you use a better example? It wasn't even a minor challenge with this one to show you have no idea of what you are talking about. I come to these forums looking for intelligent debate and I'm constantly frustrated in that goal by liberals spouting nonsense, based on a shabby reading and understanding of history, economics, political science....ah, that list goes on.
Now, as for mentioning Nazi Germany, since when is an appropriate use of history unacceptable? Remember the saying: those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Or is it that you, like most democrats and liberals, have a problem with facts that show you to be wrong?
Another question: would you mind explaining to this simple ol' warmonger just how Vietnam was for profit? I'm having a problem with that one...is President Bush perhaps chief of a highly profitable rice cartel that only liberals are aware of?
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 72
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 5:42:25 PM
@ get mad baby - if you EVER, ever again suggest that Hitler is 'my pal' - even in jest - I will ask the moderator to remove your posting privileges. I'm not easily insulted - it's been done by people far more clever at it than you are - but that goes beyond what I am willing to accept, and for reasons that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ even approaching room temperature on a cold day.
You, obviously, have been left out in the cold. So, plain and simple so that even you get it - you're out of line on that one. Do not do it again.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 73
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 7:22:10 PM
G_m_b, what does the Carlyle link have to do with the gas pipeline you mentioned earlier?

This is what cynics and conspiracy theorist usually do when they want to misdirect and obfuscate—they fish for stories. That these stories are usually unrelated is nothing new, as long as they “look” damning and muddy the waters. Everything’s one, giant conspiracy, right? The “conclusions” derived from these news flashes are based on innuendo and supposition, like a big game of connect the dots, with the only premise being all roads lead back to the object of your disdain, which in this case is Bush. In other words, it’s like a political Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, just substitute your own alleged culprit and see who you can connect.

Let’s look at the Carlyle story, a classic example of smoke with no fire.

Bush Sr was not an active member of the board of the Carlyle Group. He was paid as a roving public speaker and “draw” to generate business for the company. I'm not sure if he's still being paid as a guest speaker or not, but I would say not....lol.

A company owned by bin Laden's estranged billionaire family in Saudi Arabia was among Carlyle's clients. And just what giant investment amount are we talking about here? A mere $2-million in a company worth billions in assets. Their holdings were bought out by Carlyle shortly after 9-11, for obvious reasons.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of this involvement led to 9-11 or Afghanistan.

The story (which dates back to December 2, 2001, not even three months after 9-11) includes the California Public Employees' Retirement System as stakeholders in the company. Former British Prime Minister John Major and George Soros, a billionaire financier and noted Bush hater, were also stakeholders. I guess all these people are in cahoots with Bush and bin Laden, too, right?

The Carlyle Group is not a "defense contractor", it's a private equity group that buys shares in a range of companies. Breakdown of their investments is given as follows (the year is not specified, but the timeframe is probably sometime between 9-11 and at least 2003):

22%: Telecoms and media
17%: Auto and transport
12%: Aerospace
12%: Industrial
11%: IT
6% : Energy
6% : Health
5% : Consumer
1% : Defence
1% : Other
Source: http://www.911myths.com/html/carlyle_group.html

The biggest military contract the company was pushing for before 9-11, the Crusader Advanced Artillery system, was killed in 2002 by who? None other than Donald Rumsfeld. Wouldn't it be kind of stupid to kill a project that could be such a lucrative windfall to a company evidently tied to the Bushes? How on earth could Bushie ever allow it????

All these stories being supplied by conspiracy theorists make good copy, but ultimately fail the smell test of concrete evidence that Bush and bin Laden planned and carried out 9-11 together and our subsequent involvement in Afghanistan. NEXT!!!
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 74
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/19/2007 9:26:15 PM
...oh geez motown, there will certainly be a 'NEXT' - these people simply won't quit, even in the face of facts. To paraphrase Ann Coulter about Lexis Nexis, will these people never realize the power of the internet as a tool for searching out the facts of a situation? I've yet to see something these people have posited that couldn't be checked and verified in less then five or ten minutes.
What concerns me is that so many of them are my fellow Canadians - they've succumbed to the pablum fed to them by a media that is even more relentlessly liberal than south of our border. The vitriol which some of these ill-informed people spew out against Americans - and they likely don't know many, if any - is disheartening. I'm currently south of the border on business, and I find myself constantly apologizing for the foolishness of these people, explaining that most Canadians aren't this nasty or misinformed.
Interesting thing is, they get to call us every nasty name in the book, yet the moment we react in kind, they're off to the mod to get us banned. I guess freedom of speech onlyl applies when you're agreeing with these folks.
Enjoy your posts, you've taken the time to look up the facts, more than what some people will do.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 75
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History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/20/2007 12:54:27 AM
I find you to be insulting in general. Horrible war is being waged. You just gave it all away by paraphrasing Ann Coulter. Not to go off topic any more, but you're a Bill O school of debate, which is not a compliment nor is it conducive to having a debate. What's you're diatribe about up there, why are you having to inform us of you? You bloviate quite well.

Back on track. We've gotten ourselves into another Vietnam. Politicians and contractors are making out like the bandits they are. More than 70 American companies and individuals have won up to $8 billion in contracts for work in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan over the last two years. Those companies contributed more money to the presidential campaigns of George W. Bush – more than $500,000 – than to any other politician over the last dozen years.

And you're defending people of such low integrity to be in that country? Delivering freedom by the barrel.
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 76
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/20/2007 4:02:10 AM
"I wish that people like you would recognize the value of the sacrifices of Americans"


I wish people wouldnt assume that people DONT recognize that...I wish people wouldnt be so smug and self rightious as to assume that about others.....How on earth do you know what goes on in someone's mind and heart?....Have you walked a mile in their moccassins?....Jeez, what arrogance......This is the major problem I see with people, especially Americans.....Ive been called a traitor at antiwar demonstrations then I quietly go back to work on Monday helping vets and their families with PTSD and depression and addictions, which I have been doing for 20 years , 5 days a week...Helping the people the flag wavers accuse me of not "supporting".....Do the people screaming at me and calling me a "traitor" and stupid liberal even know this?..No.....Do they care?..Apparently not...All they seem to care about is running their mouths, being "right" and making false assumptions about people...Who needs the bull...sh..t?...Maybe this is why liberals cant discuss anything with the war hawks.....Maybe this is why they turn away ....Too much false assuming and no listening at all
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 77
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/20/2007 4:21:34 AM
...and you, gmb, have just proven my point. My remark about Ann Coulter was to point out the general inability of liberal posters to search out facts and thus frequently make foolish or incorrect statements on a situation. I can't count the number of times I've seen that occur (and it's usually liberals who do it), despite the availability and unparalleled ability of the internet to search out facts.
You've managed to take that simple point and draw out an erroneous conclusion from it - that takes a certain lack of comprehension to be able to do it so consistently, and unerringly. You've shown particular skill at it.
Ok - so Bush and his 'bandits' have no business being over in Iraq according to you. In that case, who does, since the job needs doing? While we're back on the topic, motownmaniax pretty much dismembered your argument about Carlyle - I notice you didn't respond to that. Care to let us know why?
Btw, your remark about freedom from a barrel...that's rather close to a remark by Mao tse Tung. Would he exemplify your idea of an honourable politician deserving of respect?
(..and was 'bloviate' the word of the day somewhere recently? That's twice recently I've seen it here).
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 78
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/20/2007 10:20:46 AM
Stereotypes are a real time saver huh? And quit typing my name in your posts fanboy.

Why respond to such propaganda. Defending the Carslyle Group, may as well defend Blackwater. You're an apologist for these illegal military occupations. You're always defending why Poland was a threat, no wait, Why Afghanistan/Iraq was a threat. It's a dirty and corrupt show going on over there.

Said my stance, these wars are illegal. Not going to respond in your name calling caustic fashion. Just more of the right wing pathology of attacking, scapegoating, lying, distorting and distracting. Not going to keep playing your game, arguing back with you will just get the thread deleted, which is in your handlers best interests. Keep obfuscating for a corrupt war.

Freedom by the barrel. Look at that saying. Barrel of a gun, barrel of oil, it fits the excuse as to why we're there.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 79
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 10/20/2007 11:04:38 AM
Capegardengirl, believe me, we have a sizable and vocal anti-war, anti-Bush segment over here, and it’s getting more vociferously vocal every day.

Let me be clear: I’m not against healthy skepticism—you should always question. But don’t totally rely on “any” important information without checking facts, plausibility, context, and background first. I WON’T defend or give equal weight to arguments based on deep cynicism and obvious personal animosity, jealousy, and prejudice of the basher.

What angers me most with the 9-11 conspiracy debate is the intellectual laziness and sloppiness I see all the time. It’s so rampant that many must be "predisposed" to believe the most outrageous drivel, and apparently put their own logic on hold when any wild accusation agrees with their position. I can't figure out any other reason why?

I’m also irritated with this double standard where in order to satisfy I must answer every “theory” in detail and cover every point, no matter how ridiculous and illogical they are, but the cynics get a free pass. I’m in a no-win situation with these people? If you expose a theory as fraudulent, logically impossible, or an outright fabrication, they simply and freely move on to the next one. Never mind their pet theory was just exposed as crap? Why concern oneself with a small detail like that. It doesn't help that conspiracy sites are like weeds on the net (with new ones sprouting up almost daily) and just fuels the idiocy.

There is no rhyme or reason with the logic, either. If you examine closely, some of these theories actually contradict themselves, which evidently makes NO difference whatsoever to the people that peddle them, and definitely not to those that swear by them.

And if you think I’m some card-carrying conservative apologist, here’s some political background.

I voted for Clinton in ’92 and ’96. I voted for Bush in 2000 because I simply thought he was the better candidate at the time. We already had eight years of Clinton/Gore and thought the country needed a change. Clinton was an extremly competent president and I had no problem with his administration.

I voted for Kerry in 2004 because I was furious with our direction in Iraq. If Kerry was better at getting his message across (ala Clinton), and if all the Bush-hating cynics would have actually “voted” in that election instead of b**ching that their vote never counts, Kerry would have probably won in a landslide.

I’m still undecided about 2008 and the field is still shaking down. I would have no problem voting for either Giuliani, McCain, or Barack Obama. I think Hillary would be a good president but also believe she might be too polarizing and could sabotage the election for the Democrats.
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