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 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 276
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not ReportingPage 7 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
^^^^
Excellent post. Well reasoned, and backed by irrefutable facts.
Another crisis for the Afghan people. Air-power, ground troops and
the pleading of do-gooders will not change a thing.

Only the will of the the people that actually live there can effect a lasting
change and improvement in their situation. Without the help of the coalition
I don't believe any such change can take place. The brutal power structure
that has been in place for generations would not allow it.

The people want freedom, dream of freedom, but have no hope of seeing it unless
the warlords and cynical profiteers are deposed. This is an area in which the
Coalition could make a real difference if they chose to. They seem to want to take the easy way out, make deals with
thugs and murderers, rather than take the moral high ground and bring help to courageous visionaries like Ms. Joya.

She has my vote too.
 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 277
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/18/2007 2:21:11 PM
I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic. Are you saying that if we support these people
they will help the Afghans form some kind of democracy?

I think that is a very shallow assessment of the situation. There is zero chance that these thugs will voluntarily give up the power they have fought for.
They intend to continue using the US, and the Coaltion to further their own ambitions.
Believe me, those ambitions do not include a liberal or democratic future for Afghanistan.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 278
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/18/2007 4:49:44 PM
The simple fact remains that failure is NOT an option in Afghanistan. To fail would not only spell death for thousands that are cooperating with US and NATO forces to build a better society, but the return of cruel servitude to the religious fundamentalism of Taliban rule.

But to achieve “success” (termed as a government not forever mired in corruption or a Taliban return) means we have a much more aggressive in offering a more comprehensive economic, social, and political strategy. This will also mean engaging in a long-term project that will require an end to major armed conflict, the promotion of economic development, and the gradual replacement of opium production by other economic activities. This would of course include dealing with sanctuaries in Pakistan, so the government in Pakistan is also inextricably linked to Afghanistan success.

Most in the country (there will always be pockets of fundamentalism) overwhelmingly reject a return to Taliban rule, but are frustrated by the lack of progress since the 2001 invasion (this from their own polling). Success is when most Afghani’s believe their democratically elected government can provide security, administer fair justice, actually listen to their regional and district concerns, and allow real economic alternatives to the opium trade and freedom of occupational choice.

Obviously, those that argue we should get out of Afghanistan posthaste and abandon the people to vicious, ruthless Taliban vengeance and retribution have already given up and are resigned to the outcome.

I haven’t, and never will.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 279
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/18/2007 5:09:25 PM

So what are we supposed to do ? Go to war with everybody in the country we don't like ? We have no choice but to work with these guys for the time being.


We have no choice??? What are we suppose to do??? How about playing fair to start with and move on from there? This selected government with their criminals are protected by us! Why? Because NATO/US couldn't give a shit about what happens to the citizens. They are not part of the agenda therefore if others can take care of them without NATO/US looking bad, why not...right?

If you want to force democracy, at least try to do it in an honest way by not having a puppet government. Let the people TRULY choose without breaking the rules and once that is done, work with them...defend them...amd make sure that everyone is moving forward and in the same direction from that point on.


That most certainly would lead to an absolute rejection of Western values and democracy.


We pretty much proved with Afghanistan and Iraq that our western values and democracy isn't worth****in the middle east as well as Asia.

Thinking that our soldiers are dying for those criminals is truly pissing me off!


It's smarter to try and tame them than to go to war with them.


Tame them??? Sorry...it's much smarter to prosecute and make examples out of them then to give our money and lives so that they can continu to murder and rape people as much as they want without having anyone pointing the finger at them.


and the gradual replacement of opium production by other economic activities.

Do you honestly believe that a government formed of drug dealers will let that happen?


Success is when most Afghani’s believe their democratically elected government


I agree...once they actually will have a democratically elected government.
 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 280
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Posted: 11/19/2007 12:08:26 AM
^^^
Being antagonistic or condescending is rarely effective.
( Just a heads-up for you. )

Use calm, cool logic and you may change peoples attitudes. You do
have some good points but the facts you provide are suspect.
There is no doubt the situation is dire, the fact is the coalition made some bad choices
in their partners there. There really is no reason that cannot change with
a little effort on our part.

Provide the people with an alternative to these jerks, and the means to keep them off
their backs and Afghanistan may yet become a free country.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 281
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/19/2007 11:30:55 AM

Hey , it's really easy for you guys sitting in your armchairs to tell both the Afghani people and our soldiers there about "playing fair" and who they should deal with or not.


Of course it is! That’s called democracy which is what the US are force feeding them with but with a different definition/twist of the word and under their own terms. Then you wonder why it’s taking so long to get results? By the way, it’s not about the soldiers, it’s about the populace! Let them truly choose who they want as a leader without rigging elections.


Yeah , that's pretty bright : persecute the warlords that preserve some semblance of order in the places where lawlessness and absolute poverty otherwise rule. And I'd love to know what "other economic activities" are supposed to be for a farmer in the Kandahar region. Yeah , maybe he should get an IT degree and leave all that silly and bad opium stuff behind. Good grief , get real. IF the Afghan people had access to anything else in the first place do you think that we'd even be there right now ? Maybe but the odds are against it.


It is very bright and I will tell you why. Organisations such as The Project for Alternative Livelihoods (PAL) just to name one, are directly contributing to the reduction of poverty and facilitate the change from opium to an alternative economic and social system. The problem with these organisations is that they have to deal with a government formed out of drug dealers who will do all that they can to prevent those groups to move ahead as it will no longer be beneficial for them.

Furthermore, for anyone who agrees that having internationally known WAR CRIMINALS as ministers, definitely need to have their brains examine.

Why is the international presence in Afghanistan not able to bring under control a phenomenon connected to international terrorism and organized crime? Why is the central Government in Kabul not able to enforce the ban on opium cultivation as effectively as the Taliban regime did in 2000-01? You seem smart…take a guess on that one.


The US government removed the ultra-reactionary and brutal regime of Taliban, but instead of relying on Afghan people, pushed us from the frying pan into the fire and selected its friends from among the most dirty and infamous criminals of the “Northern Alliance”, which is made up of the sworn enemies of democracy and human rights, and are as dark-minded, evil, and cruel as the Taliban.

The Western media talks about democracy and the liberation of Afghanistan, but the US and its allies are engaged in the warlordization, criminalization and drug-lordization of our wounded land.


I read her words and can help myself to try understand why some defend the US moves.


And yeah, try to tame them. That's actually a sop to YOU types.


You types??? Awww the old dumb far right answer to everything. Typical to say the least!


If it was up to you , no wars would ever be won because your kind seems to think there are rules or something. Rules only work when both sides abide by them.


I had to read that quote a few times as I just couldn’t believe that someone would actually dared to wrote such crap. We “think that there are rules or something?” Duhhh!!! But I will give you one thing, rules do only work when both sides abide by them. So here’s my questions:
Why did the US broke the rules to go to war?
Why is the Canadian government continue to follow US foreign policies?


Check the polls. Most of the people in Afghanistan seem to appreciate what we're doing over there and they like what we're doing with the place.


Did already, it was revealed that about 60 percent of Afghans think the current administration is more corrupt than any other in the past two decades. Quite different from what we have read in here huh?


You super-cynic hard-left types are so sure that absolutely everybody in the world hates "the West" in spite of the fact that apparently it's not a universally held opinion.


You must love looking at yourself speaking in a mirror huh? Talk about someone with issues!


Yeah, sure, a sizeable proportion do and will continue to do so for the duration of their lives but in general things are noticeably better over there and it's been noted by the locals.


“noticeably better “??? Off topic of course but cite please.


With that said , now how do you propose to realistically deal with the warlords ? Hunt them all down right away ? Yeah , good plan. That would destroy every shred of goodwill we've gained. It should be obvious why but I'll explain it to you sheltered-life types anyway


Deal with the warlords??? There’s no dealing!!! Warlords = Lawlessness! They should be presented with alternatives and if not accepted, eliminate them!


Barnett Rubin, a leading specialist on Afghanistan and the author of several books on that country, criticizes what he sees as the Bush administration’s insistence on using its 17,000 troops in Afghanistan to fight a “war we cannot win” against the Taliban. Instead, he says, the United States should combine those troops with the NATO force of 6,500 to enhance nationwide stability.

The United States defeated the Taliban by using air power, U.S. Special Forces, and small CIA teams that strengthened the forces of the Northern Alliance and other commanders in a country where the state administration, which was always weak, had broken down.

That means that these armed commanders— those we now call “warlords”--became the real powers in the country, using the money and weapons they received from the United States. They are able to control whatever administration exists in their areas because the central government is so relatively weak. That means that they are now strongly opposed to the consolidation of the central government and the provision of security in a way that would make possible the rule of law, the legal economic development of the country, and ultimately the building of more democratic institutions.


The US removed the Taliban to replace them with the Northern Alliance/Warlords who are no better but worst than the Taliban. And we applaud this? Here’s a fun part…it is speculated that some warlords are using OUR MONEY to supply the Taliban with firepower to fight NATO as they don’t want democracy in the first place.

No one can possibly expect results as long as we have to deal with criminals.


Apart from that , I never said it was supposed to be a permanent situation. I said work with them for now.


Please explain how this cannot be anything else but a permanent situation?


Remember the people we're actually shooting and getting shot at by right now ? Yeah, well we have to deal with them first. IF we can manage to find the resources then maybe we can send in enough troops to pacify the entire country and bring it up to the western standard right away. Well, write your MP or your congressman right now and tell him to send in more troops ,like, yesterday man ! Let me know how that goes.


So you are saying that we went in this without a proper plan? Unprepared? Maybe some idiots (Bush & Blair) thought it would be easy? Well I guess that’s why there’s still no light at the end of the tunnel after 6 years of war/occupation…Right?


I wonder what colour of explosives they'll have strapped to their chests when they manage to get here and make a beeline for the local shopping mall. Ooooo...I'll bet it'll be really pretty when they take out your family.


Oh my God! You are one of those who thinks that if we are not there, they will come here and bomb the hell out of us? Let me guess...far right brainwashed conservative...right? No need to answer as I am 100% positive that you are.

You just lost any form of credibly you had buddy.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 283
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/19/2007 1:55:36 PM
Just returned from travelling - I see that we have still MORE apologists here, whining and crying about the horrible state of Afghanistan. It's enough to give a travelling sailor PTSD, if I can believe some of the posters here - which, rest assured, I don't.
A friend of mine in Annapolis MD who served as a lieutenant colonel (medical doctor) in Korea in the 50s made an excellent point to me the other day: South Korea is now, fifty years later, a successful and functioning democracy - it didn't happen overnight. South Korea was as dysfunctional then as Afghanistan is now - a war-torn country, fought over by Communists in this case, vs. America on the side of freedom. (stop gnashing your teeth, you lefties!)
However, SK now has a thriving middle class, women's rights, etc etc., all that you would expect of a first world country. But, and I repeat, all of this didn't happen overnight. It took many years and a lot of effort and support from America and other countries interested in freedom.
North Korea, however, is another story, the usual communist dictator's success' story.
I just hope that those on here like roughpoet, CGG and the others who are whining about 'evil America', kowtowing to thugs and warlords, etc., are around in 30 or 40 years - history will, again, as it did with South Korea, show that the cowards who counsel diplomacy in the face of aggression are hopelessly out of touch with reality.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 284
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/19/2007 2:00:20 PM

Glib words and personal attacks,

Freedom often comes at a very high cost roughpoet - in case you didn't realize that, I suggest you travel to Europe and look at the graves of those that died there in WW1 and WW2. Or perhaps the various monuments in places like Korea; Dieppe, France; Altona, Italy, or graveyards in places like Holland where the children still tend the graves of those who died to free their grandparents.
Are those words glib enough for you? Just remember who paid for your right to sit where you are right now and tell me how wrong I am. Hopefully, you'll thank God for those men and women, but somehow, I doubt that you or any of the rest of your ilk have that much class.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 289
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 4:04:52 AM
Absolutely agree with AS, squirrly, gottobeme, and dunrich.

Why do the critics of what we're trying to do in Afghanistan—stabilize the country and give democratic reforms a chance—always ridicule the effort by charging we're somehow "imposing" our Western culture on an unwilling population? Democratic ideals are universal and applicable in any situation; they won't supersede the cultural and social fabric of the Afghani tribal system. Once given a chance to see them work in practice, most Afghans "want" the freedom these reforms offer. They've "lived" under the alternative, and want no part in revisiting it.

To say we don't understand the "real" Afghanistan (and the critics on here DO?....please) so just get out and let the chips fall where they may, even if it means a return to Taliban rule, reeks of almost criminal neglect. If the country becomes another launching pad of terrorism we'll simply be back. I just don't agree with the logic of cut and run and blind obsequiousness to the status quo when we have the power to influence the outcome for the better.

But again, this will be LONG TERM project. The country has only known war and upheaval for almost 30 years. Government reform and cleaning up corruption will NOT happen overnight, no matter how much impatient critics scream.
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 290
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 5:17:06 AM

But again, this will be LONG TERM project. The country has only known war and upheaval for almost 30 years. Government reform and cleaning up corruption will NOT happen overnight, no matter how much impatient critics scream.


Great idea. To stop war, with more war.


what we're trying to do in Afghanistan—stabilize the country and give democratic reforms a chance


Conquering and setting up a puppet government, one that will be friendly to our corporations. It's one of the oldest political plays, and we're watching it happen, as good Americans condone it.

Afghanistan is a mess, flooding the market with opium. Does the news that a few police stations were built offset the fact that we're now stuck in a treasury draining, military straining, 'long term project', I think not.

Cleaning up corruption there, so we don't have to clean it up here.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 291
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 5:55:10 AM

Great idea. To stop war, with more war.


Wow, it's all that simple? I see the light now. Thanks for revealing that great truth and insight? Yeah, right. Sloganeering is NOT a strategy. If that's your view then there shouldn't have been any intervention in WW2 and Korea (among many other conventional wars) and countless genocides just in the past 40 years. Total appeasement is what you're advocating with the statement above. The problem with that is everybody doesn't play by the same rules and follows the same reasoning.


Conquering and setting up a puppet government, one that will be friendly to our corporations. It's one of the oldest political plays, and we're watching it happen, as good Americans condone it.


More distortion, lies, and spin about what we're doing over there (and not just the US, but NATO and many relief agencies).

I guess the Taliban gets a free ride in your world view? Hey, an atrocity is an atrocity, right? You make no distinction between a terrorists' mindset and a military response after repeated attacks. I suppose you don't agree with Turkey going after Kurdish terrorists that continually attack across the Turkish border, too?

Violence begets violence....war means more war, so there should be no retaliation under any circumstances. But for who? You only criticize and villify what you believe is the bigger evil, Western culture and ideals---the very democratic precepts you live under and apparently take for granted. I simply don't agree with your stance and never will.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 292
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 6:18:55 AM

KABUL, Afghanistan, Oct. 21 — In the face of pressure from the American government, the administration of President Hamid Karzai is seeking the formation of an international scientific committee to review the safety of chemical herbicides to combat Afghanistan’s opium poppy crop, Afghan and Western officials say.

The Afghan government has also formed two of its own committees to study the issue and, with a new growing season beginning this month, has vowed to conduct a speedy review process, Afghan officials said. “We are working around the clock,” Obaidullah Ramin, Afghanistan’s minister of agriculture, irrigation and livestock, said in an interview last week.

The moves, which follow a visit to Kabul earlier this month by a State Department delegation that briefed Afghan cabinet officials on the efficacy and safety of the chemicals, suggest a new willingness on the part of the Afghan government to reconsider its opposition to chemical eradication.

Since the beginning of the year, the Karzai administration has said it is adamantly opposed to the use of chemical herbicides to eradicate poppy fields. But in recent weeks, the American government has renewed its pressure on the Afghans to endorse at least a trial ground-based spray program using glyphosate, a widely sold weed killer that has also been used in American-financed counternarcotics programs in the Andes and elsewhere.

The Karzai administration has been reluctant, in part, because of concerns about the possible environmental and public health consequences. Afghan officials have also argued that a program with American-financed chemical eradication squads wiping out farmers’ livelihoods would hand the Taliban rebels a major propaganda tool and risk driving farming communities into the insurgency’s camp.


I seriously doubt that the Karzai administration will approve the destruction of poppy fields. We should find out within weeks at best.

Congrats squirrly...you know why...right? It will be our little secret...

Coming back to the poopy problems. Let say that Karzai do spray the fields and destroys them completely, do some think that it will happen without any glitches? I know one who probably will

If it happens, let the poll takers go back for another study. If they do come back alive, I guarantee that the % of approval will be very different from the first poll. Scary different!

It is sooo funny to read about all the terrible things the Taliban have done in the past and that our main goal was to remove them from the government. Why it's funny? Because of this...


Taliban spokesman rejects Karzai's offer of talks
Last Updated: Sunday, September 30, 2007 | 10:27 PM ET
CBC News

Afghan President Hamid Karzai's offer of peace talks was rejected by a Taliban spokesman, who on Sunday repeated a position he announced earlier this month, saying there would be no negotiations until foreign troops withdraw from Afghanistan.

Karzai told reporters on Saturday that he wants to meet with Taliban leader Mullah Omar and is willing to give the insurgent group positions in government. But Taliban spokesman Qari Yousef Ahmadi turned down the proposal.

"The Taliban will never negotiate with the Afghan government in the presence of foreign forces," Ahmadi told the Associated Press. "Even if Karzai gives up his presidency, it's not possible that Mullah Omar would agree to negotiations."


Let's see here if I get it... We blasts (literally) the hell out of the Taliban, denounce them in every western media as a blood thirsty group of fanatics who couldn't give a rats ass about human rights, and now we want to bring them back by offering them positions within the government???

The reason for this is quite simple. NATO knows very well that they will be defeated with time just as all the others were in the past. Shameful situation if you ask me.

Let’s call Karzai’s proposition, a swift kick in the nuts to the US and NATO…Agreed?


I guess the Taliban gets a free ride in your world view?


Isn't it what the Karzai's proposition offered them? A free ride?
 get_mad_baby
Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 293
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 6:24:01 AM

KABUL, Nov 20 (Reuters) - Too much aid to Afghanistan is wasted -- soaked up in contractors' profits, spent on expensive expatriate consultants or squandered on small-scale, quick-fix projects, a leading British charity said on Tuesday.

By far the biggest donor, the United States approved a further $6.4 billion in Afghan aid this year, but the funds are spent in ways that are "ineffective or inefficient", Oxfam said.

The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) allocates close to half its funds to the five largest U.S. contractors in Afghanistan.

"Too much aid is absorbed by profits of companies and sub-contractors, on non-Afghan resources and on high expatriate salaries and living costs," the report said.

A full-time expatriate consultant can cost up to $500,000 a year, Oxfam said.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKISL28902._CH_.242020071120
© Reuters2007All rights reserved.


Do you get it? War, and "nation-building" is a way for money to slip through the cracks and into the corrupt officials and corporations pockets.

And Afghanistan is hardly the world wars. That's a false comparison. Ilike how you can assume my position on other current events, like the mess that's happening with Northern Iraq, you assume too much. Also that you assume that Western culture and ideals are the problem.

The ideal of graft, war for profit, lying to the populace, and setting up puppet governments are what I find to be evidence of aggressive U.S. foreign policies.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 294
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 7:24:40 AM
Gmb, I keep forgetting you absolutely reject the reason we're in Afghanistan in the first place? If I remember you believe 9-11 was a government conspiracy and greedy corporate interests "pushed" us into invading Afghanistan. To you there was no connection with 9-11?

Well, as often with your views, I respectfully disagree. The evidence is overwhelming that the Taliban was using the country as a launching pad and safe haven to protect, nurture, and train terrorists for attacks against the US, with 9-11 just being the boldest and most heinous, but certainly not the only instance.

The WW2 analogy is 100% valid. 9-11 was an act of WAR! We had every right to retaliate and take out the Taliban. We're now left, in the aftermath, with the responsibility of reconstruction (just as at the end of WW2) and to "try" and make sure the country is not used as a base of attack again.

As for what we're doing there, I always tend to see things positively. I just don't have the mindset for such profound cynicism.
 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 295
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 9:15:16 AM
gottobeme:
You show how much class you have everytime you open your mouth.
You seem unable to make a comment without insulting or belittling other posters.
That is my issue with you. Grow up and learn how to live without labelling people.

Also, try to remain on topic please. This thread is about Afghanistan... not what
happened 60 years ago in Europe, or 50 years ago in Korea.
Any comparisons are just a smokescreen to hide behind.
 gentalltheway
Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 296
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 12:03:05 PM

The evidence is overwhelming that the Taliban was using the country as a launching pad and safe haven to protect, nurture, and train terrorists for attacks against the US


Really? Please cite.


To you there was no connection with 9-11


There was no solid evidence back then just as there's none today about Bin Laden and Al Quaeda being involved in 911. Well except from the word of the master and commander who by the way is a pitiful liar to start with.

Up till today, Bin Laden never been formally charged in connection to 9/11. So, saying this, how is it possible that the US had enough evidence to invade Afghanistan?

This is not bullshit or conspiracy theories...it's a fact!


June 5, 2006, FBI spokesman, Chief of Investigative Publicity Rex Tomb said, “The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.


If it's good enough for the FBI, why is it not with you guys?
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 297
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/20/2007 12:54:49 PM
"We have no choice???...How about playing fair to start with???"

Thank you!..A statement of truth here no one ever asks yet im always thinking that too...WHY dont we handle it effectively and nonviolently in the first place rather than having to backtrack and cover up our messes in another country when things dont work out!...People are so impulsive about this then regret their actions later...DUH..Think before you act....People should have learned that in grade school...
 sailingsouth
Joined: 8/31/2006
Msg: 302
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Posted: 11/20/2007 5:15:15 PM

As I wrote in another thread, you are not worth the time of day and I shall ignore your posts

what is it about the lef wing that, if they aren't the ones behind a successful effort, as is occuring in Afghanistan, that they either cannot accept it, or else attempt to show that it isn't 'perfect'.
Or, when democracy succeeds, as it sometimes does, they claim the election was 'illegal'?

For those who don't understand how I got to these numbers, I simply subtracted the % of farmers and the negative ones as well.

...and that quote tells us all we need to know about YOUR reasoning, doesn't it...
 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 303
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Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 4:23:43 AM
dunnerich: Those are great stats. I work some stone myself, so I'm always
happy to see more rough come into the market.

Rocks are what these people have. Some of them are costly... and some of
them are priceless.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 305
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 11:46:34 AM
at gentalltheway

Let’s call Karzai’s proposition, a swift kick in the nuts to the US and NATO…Agreed?

now would that be like the US leaving Japan's emperor in place after WW2? that sort of ineffective move?
would that be like bringing sinn fein into the irish government? you get a lot more accomplished if you can bring your enemies onside and make them into friends, or if not friends, than at least work with them - but what left wing fools don't seem to get is that you have to make them understand that they cannot win under ANY circumstances and they will have to accept grace from the winner...
I and anyone else with intelligence don't deny that there are people of intelligence and talent within the Taliban, and that they believe that their program for Afghanistan is the 'best' - but their idea of what is 'best' is at complete odds with what is acceptable to more 'mature' countries of the west - who believe in things like free votes, women's rights, etc., etc. If we abandon Afganistan, we abandon all the people there who believe as we do, and would like to live with the rights and freedoms we take for granted.
Perhaps it hasn't occured to most of the peaceniks on here - no, actually I'm SURE that it hasn't, since the entire process involves using intelligence, that if the NATO and other forces leave Afgahnistan, then the Taliban won't be interested in talking, they'll be interested in ruling - and throwing out the current government...with all the attendant issues that will entail.
Perhaps you and all the other apologists on this thread will write a nice letter to the women and children of Afghanistan if the Taliban take over, explaining why they can't work or go to school anymore...that would be very nice of you, don't you think? After all, it's all about 'being nice' in your worked, isn't it?
No soldier WANTS to fight - but they fight when and if they HAVE to, because, sadly, there's no other choice.
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 307
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 11:55:20 AM

Also, try to remain on topic please. This thread is about Afghanistan... not what
happened 60 years ago in Europe, or 50 years ago in Korea.
Any comparisons are just a smokescreen to hide behind.

This is what infuriates me about people like you, roughpoet - the comparisons to Europe and Korea are perfectly valid - it's called learning from history, seeing what worked, giving consideration to applying successful strategies in similar circumstances.
The left wing, including you, run scared when effective arguments are presented, and then call them 'smokescreens' or otherwise attempt to denigrate them - it's a classic liberal tactic. IF you had any real concept of what the world is about, you would be looking for analogies from history to try to understand what is happening today. Perhaps you need to be reminded of the quote that 'those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.'
Or is that quote too old and tired for you as well
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 308
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 12:08:25 PM
In response to gentalltheway's Msg 330

Regarding Taliban terrorist training grounds and bin Laden/al Qaeda's connection to pre-9-11 attacks:

Taken from a 1998 interview with Samuel Berger, Pres Clinton's National Security Adviser, after the African embassy bombings and US retaliatory strikes against Sudan and Afghanistan:

(In response to a general question about training camps in Afghanistan)
SAMUEL BERGER: ....Second of all, in terms of the camps in Afghanistan, we struck at the host camps in Afghanistan. This is one of the largest terrorist training facilities in the world.
JIM LEHRER: Now, how do you know that?
SAMUEL BERGER: We watch these things quite carefully.
JIM LEHRER: From satellites?
SAMUEL BERGER: Among other means. Thousands of terrorists have been trained in this camp from a variety of organizations, most of which are related to bin Laden. We know that we did moderate to severe damage to the facilities in that camp, but because of weather conditions, we can't be more precise. I think over the next few days we will have a little clearer picture.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec98/berger_8-21.html

Response by Noorullah Zadran, Taliban spokesman, on the same program confirming existence of "hundreds of training camps", but deflecting and misdirecting answering specific questions about the true "nature" of the camps:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec98/taliban_8-21.html

Embassy Bombings

"On August 7, 1998, National Security Advisor Berger woke President Clinton
with a phone call at 5:35 A.M. to tell him of the almost simultaneous bombings
of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi,Kenya, and Dar es Salaam,Tanzania. Suspicion
quickly focused on Bin Ladin.Unusually good intelligence, chiefly from the yearlong
monitoring of al Qaeda’s cell in Nairobi, soon firmly fixed responsibility on him and
his associates.37"

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch4.pdf

USS Cole

"...the Yemenis provided strong evidence connecting the Cole
attack to al Qaeda during the second half of November, identifying individual
operatives whom the United States knew were part of al Qaeda. During
December the United States was able to corroborate this evidence. But the
United States did not have evidence about Bin Ladin’s personal involvement
in the attacks until Nashiri and Khallad were captured in 2002 and 2003."

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch6.pdf

"Waleed bin Attash, a key al Qaeda figure, has confessed to planning the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, and similar actions against two U.S. embassies in Africa, according to hearing transcripts released on Monday. If true, bin Attash would be responsible for more than 200 deaths.

In the attack on the USS Cole, 17 sailors were killed and dozens injured when a boat filled with explosives rammed the destroyer as it sat in port. Additionally, more than 200 people were killed in 1998 when the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were simultaneously attacked.

Bin Attash was captured in 2003, and in the transcripts said he "put together the plan for the operation a year and a half prior to the operation, buying the boat and recruiting the members that did the operation." Bin Attach said he was with Osama bin Laden when the USS Cole was attacked."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/184154/waleed_bin_attash_confesses_to_uss.html

Summary of 1998 FBI indictment of bin Laden for the Embassy bombings:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/bombings/summary.html

9-11 Commission Report detailing bin Laden/al Qaeda terrorist background and Afghanistan:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch4.htm

Finally, when, after 9-11, the US demanded the Taliban hand over bin Laden and close down al Qaeda bases, the Taliban NEVER disputed they weren't sheltering bin Laden and al Qaeda. They just wanted an Islamic court to try him instead. To any reasonable person, this was defacto admission by the Taliban itself that were harboring and protecting bin Laden before 9-11.


There was no solid evidence back then just as there's none today about Bin Laden and Al Quaeda being involved in 911.


How about bin Laden's confession, using his own words? Do you trust THEM?

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html


June 5, 2006, FBI spokesman, Chief of Investigative Publicity Rex Tomb said, “The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.
If it's good enough for the FBI, why is it not with you guys?


Yet another instance of using an out-of-context "quote" to fan the flames of discontent.

Claim
Osama bin Laden (listed by the FBI as Usama bin Laden) was added to the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitive list in 1999, for his role in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. His wanted poster also notes, "In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world", but does not specifically mention the 9/11 attacks, the U.S.S. Cole bombing, or anything else. Some conspiracy theorists insinuate that because the FBI hasn't specifically listed 9/11 on Bin Laden's wanted poster, that they don't have enough evidence to link him to 9/11, or don't think he's behind the attacks.

Fact
In order to be listed on the FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitive list, the suspect must have been indicted for the crime. To indict Bin Laden formally for the 9/11 attacks would require presenting evidence in a court of law; such evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11 would include intelligence sources, and Al-Qaeda detainees. Making such sources (and methods) publicly known, perhaps isn't advised. In the Zacarias Moussaoui case, a big deal was made over access to detainee witnesses and about handling evidence from other intelligence sources.

In all, the 9/11 attacks were viewed as an "act of war", and the U.S. government is responding accordingly. During the Clinton administration, terrorism was handled more as a matter of law enforcement. This change in how terrorism is handled may be yet another reason why the U.S. government has not bothered to formally indict Bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks.

Regarding this matter, FBI officials told the Washington Post:

"There's no mystery here," said FBI spokesman Rex Tomb. "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it."

The FBI also maintains a list of "Most Wanted Terrorists". This list is accompanied by a note:

The alleged terrorists on this list have been indicted by sitting Federal Grand Juries in various jurisdictions in the United States for the crimes reflected on their wanted posters. Evidence was gathered and presented to the Grand Juries, which led to their being charged. The indictments currently listed on the posters allow them to be arrested and brought to justice. Future indictments may be handed down as various investigations proceed in connection to other terrorist incidents, for example, the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.

Source: http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/index.php?title=FBI_Ten_Most_Wanted_Fugitives
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 309
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 12:10:11 PM
DUNRICH - STOP THAT.
You're going to confuse the left wing/nuts here with facts and you KNOW they don't like that and can't handle them without whimpering and pouting...
And, geez Dunrich, now you've given them a new conspiracy theory to exploit - GWB wants to take over the lapis lazuli market for the world, I can see the NY Times headlines now, someone please call Dan Rather...oh wait, DON'T call Rather, he lost his job for lying about Bush, didn't he...
Top Headline This Second - America Invades Alberta, GWB says Calgary a 'hotbead of Taliban insurgents'. Democrats claim it's 'All about oil...'
Frankly, the guys in Alberta probably think 'taliban' is some sort of export beer....
 gottobeme
Joined: 4/2/2006
Msg: 310
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 12:30:37 PM
MOTOWNMANIAX, behave - I had to caution Dunrich, now you're doing it too...using undeniable facts to argue with left wing posters. You know you shouldn't do that...they never respond to facts...for example, notice that Dunrich quoted all sorts of facts, and the only one that got a response was the item about lapis lazuli - because to respond to facts requires clear cognitive, meaning 'having a basis in or reducible to empirical factual knowledge' kind of thinking, not a fuzzy reliance on youtube, flaky bloggers, the opinion of one disgruntled parliamentarian or a bunch of conspiracy theorists.
If you two keep on using facts that the left wingnuts can't respond to, this thread will certainly end, since we'll be the only ones left here...so please, stop it....let's all get touchy feely again so they can respond to us. Facts are just too tough for them to handle.
 roughpoet
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 311
view profile
History
Things in Afghanastan- what Main Stream Media Is Not Reporting
Posted: 11/21/2007 1:27:41 PM
^^^^^^^
Reminds me of the tourists who go to a foreign country and
assume if they yell loud enough and long enough, the people will understand them.

Your arguments are specious, spurious and highly suspect.
Your credibility is shot because of your inability to debate without bringing
personalities into it. You might consider restricting yourself to threads
about Canadian political history.

The issues in Afghanistan are serious enough I won't debate with you.
You're not worth my time.

To the other, more reasonable posters here I have one question.
What kind of time-frame are we looking at in Afghanistan? How many years
do you think we will have to prop this regime up? How long until
the Afghans have some chance at a free society?
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