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 cheekyjules
Joined: 1/25/2008
Msg: 159
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Creationism or Evolution?Page 7 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Also, believeing in god/religeon does not answer any of the fundemental questions about the universe. And why are there no 'scientific' explanations in the bible


It's called having faith.


I find it really frustrating that people question the scientific theory


What's that then? that science proves life came from the water and evolved?

Genesis, tells you God made creation in 7 days, he created light, water, earth, darkness, creatures, plantlife and lastly man in God's form.
This may well not be the 'Man' we see today, we have evolved.

Sportswriter...
God created Animals on day 6, scientists believe they were called Dragons before in the 1800's they was given the name Dinosaurs.
Dragons are talked of in the Old Testament.

Also, there are many very old history books in various libraries around the world that have detailed records of dragons and their encounters with people. Surprisingly (or not so surprisingly for creationists), many of these descriptions of dragons fit with how modern scientists would describe dinosaurs, even Tyrannosaurus. Unfortunately, this evidence is not considered valid by evolutionists. Why? Only because their belief is that man and dinosaurs did not live at the same time!
But, one such explanation does exist. If you remove the evolutionary framework, get rid of the millions of years, and then take the Bible seriously, you will find an explanation that fits the facts and makes perfect sense:

At the time of the Flood, many of the sea creatures died, but some survived. In addition, all of the land creatures outside the Ark died, but the representatives of all the kinds that survived on the Ark lived in the new world after the Flood. Those land animals (including dinosaurs) found the new world to be much different than the one before the Flood. Due to (1) competition for food that was no longer in abundance, (2) other catastrophes, (3) man killing for food (and perhaps for fun), and (4) the destruction of habitats, etc., many species of animals eventually died out. The group of animals we now call dinosaurs just happened to die out too. In fact, quite a number of animals become extinct each year. Extinction seems to be the rule in Earth history (not the formation of new types of animals as you would expect from evolution).
 SpeedBird1979
Joined: 6/19/2008
Msg: 160
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:17:26 AM

Due to (1) competition for food that was no longer in abundance, (2) other catastrophes, (3) man killing for food (and perhaps for fun), and (4) the destruction of habitats, etc., many species of animals eventually died out. The group of animals we now call dinosaurs just happened to die out too.


I find the Chicxulub Crater and the K-T boundary far more convincing proof the dinosaurs (the ones that died out 65 million years ago) died in a bolide impact.
 stew_67
Joined: 9/29/2008
Msg: 161
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:18:12 AM

Where were the dinosaurs in all this?


i think they were busy making oil for us greedy humans to fight over with all the religious
nutters theres no room for some of us
 cheekyjules
Joined: 1/25/2008
Msg: 163
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:21:19 AM
Carry on believing as you please speedbird, I just put forth a Christian explanation.


i think they were busy making oil for us greedy humans to fight over with all the religious


LMAO
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 164
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:43:00 AM
i think if there was any watertight evidence to support either view, well, we wouldn't be talking about it here would we? i have read some intriguing articles recently about so called "intelligent design", i.e that something was behind the complex and vibrant thing we call life. i also realise that darwin did seem to answer a great many questions with his his take on things.

when i look at this world though, and take in it's breathtaking complexity and diversity, i find it very hard to accept that all this came from a CHANCE mixing of amino acids etc in some primordial puddle of sludge...do me a favour! i'm not religous in the conventional sense, and i don't think that the bible/koran etc necessarily answer all our questions, not by a long chalk. but i do think something more than random chance was behind the world we live in. doesn't mean i think it was some fella with a long white beard, or some other religous figure though. it's a very interesting area to investigate, it makes me laugh though, when people wade in with completely black or white views on the subject though, as if to say: "this is how it is, how could anyone believe otherwise?" truth is, there isn't definitive proof or even a theory, either way, that answers ALL our questions satisfactorily. people who make these kind of simplistic statements, in my view, should read a little more, and come back with a real argument, not just a supposedly "provacative" one liner...
 WarmSunBuddhaFingers
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 165
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:56:14 AM
Off Topic - I find it ironic that women choose to follow a particular conventional religion when over all religions are predominately male-dominated, sexist and demeaning to women, I share the view that religion is man-made hence the bible, koran and other religious texts were written by men for men to control and delude, the 12 disciples were all men why no women? Anyway...

Creationism was born from Evangelical Americanism, comforting theories, narrow mindedness, arrogance, ignorance and blind faith, evolution was born from observations, hard work, patience and learning about the *real world* however harsh it is.
 Kev_71
Joined: 12/18/2008
Msg: 166
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 9:55:14 AM
Bill Hicks, the late American comedian, said something along the lines of when having sex, people sometimes say 'oh god!'; instead why not say 'Chemical chance, Chemical chance...'

x
 Talk4England
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 167
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 9:57:11 AM
Faith is stupid and causes soooo much harm both on the macro level (religion) and the micro (people relinquishing their own destiny).
How faith ever got to be perceived as a positive attribute really puzzles me.
 satsumo
Joined: 12/7/2007
Msg: 169
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 12:21:59 PM

it makes me laugh though, when people wade in with completely black or white views on the subject though, as if to say: "this is how it is, how could anyone believe otherwise?" truth is, there isn't definitive proof or even a theory, either way

Thats not really the point.

Although we don't have all the answers, it dosen't mean that we can just fill the blanks with 'God did it'. That would be the worst possible choice, that stops people trying to find out what actually causes things to be.

Physics, mathematics, astronomy, medicine all have big unanswered questions. Religion would answer all these questions with god. In fact, religion wants to stop science from finding the real answers. The real answers diminish gods' part in the universe and religion doesn't like that.

If there is intelligent design, science will eventually find evidence for it. So why would religion not just let science keep looking?
 cheekyjules
Joined: 1/25/2008
Msg: 170
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 12:30:17 PM
.
So why would religion not just let science keep looking?


What does Religion do to stop science/Evolutionists from looking?

Both sides throw their theorys out there so....?
I dont see your point.
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 172
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 1:31:16 PM
"if there is intelligent design, science will eventually find proof for it. so why would religion not just let science keep looking"

satsuma, you make religion sound like a person who has been sending letter bombs to scientists houses! is religion holding up scientific endeveaour in any significant way? i don't believe so. ok some religous types might dismiss hard scientific fact from time to time but are they actively stopping the scientists from working? i think not.

i am open minded enough to accept that either evolution or intelligent design could yet be proven right. i am a little more stimulated by the intelligent design end of things though and would be dissapointed to learn we are all just the result of a random mixing of ingredients in a primordial puddle. i would however want to know the truth, the whole truth.

satsuma me old mucker, i am also not a "fill in the blanks, god did it" type of person, i don't follow any religion, or the dogma that tends to go with it...like you i want the unvarnished truth. interestingly, quantum mechanics has started to POSSIBLY back up one or two of the more mystical claims that have been made by spiritual types through history. i don't have the space to go into it here but put it this way: we are a long way from even fully understanding the so called building blocks of everyday reality, there is much we don't yet know, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
 Jim...
Joined: 9/23/2008
Msg: 173
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/27/2009 5:22:46 PM
No the Welsh came from a land that suffered a lot of immigrants, who came over bringing their own ways and religion and gradually took over, either forcing them out, or compelled them to adopt strange and alien customs. Who says history doesn't repeat itself?
 Kev_71
Joined: 12/18/2008
Msg: 176
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 5:24:21 AM
Perhaps there are elements of intelligent design and elements of evolution? Perhaps this was the plan? I think there is evidence on both sides, although I prefer a rational explanation to facts, but not always; its nice to have a bit of a mystery, othewise life would be quite dull...
If evolution and chemical chance were correct, then why bother looking at the stars and wondering if life exists on other planets? If you belive in evolution, then you would also not believe in heaven or hell? Life would be just as is, your on average 75 years would then be worth nothing ?
Why also did the ancient societies, such as the Greeks, Egyptians and Incas et al belive in higher authorities? These were intelligent societies, and thier legacy still remains today.
It poses interesting questions without a doubt...
 Andy.....
Joined: 5/13/2008
Msg: 177
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 6:16:20 AM

Why also did the ancient societies, such as the Greeks, Egyptians and Incas et al belive in higher authorities? These were intelligent societies, and thier legacy still remains today.


I think the clue is in the word "ancient"
 TM1971
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 178
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 6:19:40 AM
I am in two minds being raised a christian you tend to be indoctrined that God created us and earth in 7 holy days.

In evolution which has a lot more of substantial evidence to back it up is a lot more believe worthy. But I have to believe my christian background makes me too scared to admit that i do believe in evolution. In case there is a God and he wont let me into heaven, I can not stand hot weather so will be no good in hell.
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 179
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 7:46:03 AM
satsumo:


All this 'We don't know for sure' stuff gives Creationism a possible validity that it shouldn't have. Yes, you could say -


"the truth is beyond our current capacity for measurement."

Does that really mean you think god might just have created the world in 7 days? .


please do not twist my quotes to defend Creationism, or Atheism.

whatever dogma you subscribe to has enabled you to completeley miss my point altogether. your knee jerk reaction to my statement without understanding it shows that you are trapped in your own reality tunnel.

you know what?i cant be bothered , just go and read "Flatland".
how can a 2 dimensional plane perceive a 3 dimensional sphere, as it passes through the plane? i'll tell you: as a series of growing 2D circles. it can only see circles, never the sphere as a whole.

our mechanical/neural/liguistic measurements define our world and universe. if its not measured, it isnt definable in science.

let me just clarify, i am AGNOSTIC, and if my measurements (i.e my sensory inputs) told me one way or the other, then i wouldnt argue.
This isnt "sitting on the fence", but lack of proof does not constitute proof itself, and any logical argument regarding the existence of a "Prime Mover" will always end up at a PARADOX...
the PARADOX being the limit of our collective measurements. or the circle trying to look at a sphere.
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 180
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 7:48:49 AM
"Evolution has been proven correct. Go to a dog show once in a while and witness evolution at work"


i wasn't sure if you meant this in jest? i would love for you to elaborate?
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 181
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 8:04:12 AM
a dog show shows the variance in species, yet shows the similarity and common ancestry of the animals.
Darwin noticed this in pidgeons (which he kept), and it was this that was the basis for his Origin of the Species.
he noticed that by breeding pidgeons with certain traits, you could breed out undesirable traits, and within a few generations have a completeley different looking creature.

same applies in a dog show. they all developed variations over time, but can be traced back to a common ancestor.

or, he may have just been saying that people who enter their pets in competitions have strayed behind on the evolutionary bell curve.
 satsumo
Joined: 12/7/2007
Msg: 183
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 9:06:34 AM

please do not twist my quotes to defend Creationism, or Atheism.

Agapis, I interpreted you post as being about creationism, rather than theism in general. The general feeling seems to be, 'if we can't measure it yet, then it might be god'. It wasn't a deliberate attempt to twist it.

Now to answer all those other questions ...
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 184
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 9:22:07 AM
agapis, i think the latter mate to be honest.
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 185
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 9:42:55 AM

Surely the 2 dimensional plane could imagine the 3 dimensional sphere, based on the series of growing 2d circles. Or it could theorize the existence of the sphere? That is, if it was sentient....


yep, thats what i said:


i'll tell you: as a series of growing 2D circles. it can only see circles, never the sphere as a whole.


and the concept behind flatland assumes that the shapes ARE sentient, for narrative purposes.
 Jim...
Joined: 9/23/2008
Msg: 186
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:04:28 AM
Okay, some of you are missing the point here. Darwin's theory of evolution dealt with evolution within a species, which is amply demonstrated at Crufts, but regardless of what happens to a breed of dog etc, it is still a dog. Likewise with mankind you can trace back our ancestry right back to the early hominids, from which ourselves and the apes etc descended (seperately I might add), but we are still a distinct species, going back to an original 'type'.

As yet there has been no satisfactory explanation of how the different types of creature began. We have mammals that share a common ancestry, likewise fish, birds and reptiles. There are theories of course, but proof, no. Do all these descend from a single living cell at some past point? Evolutionists say yes, creationsists say no.

The creationists argue (at least those who don't argue a literal interpretation of the bible) that God is the missing element between a group of elements and amino acids, and first life. Their second arguement is that the bible accurately portrays the sequence that the universe was created along with the development of living things in the order they appeared on earth. The Bible does describe creatures that could well be dinosaurs (and not hippos or elephants as supposed). The bible sequence is not disputed by scientists, just the timeline.

In some respects the bible is a very accurate story. We know there was a flood. It even shows that Adam and Eve weren't the first man and woman, Eve was Adam's second partner, Lilith was his first - and returned to her people who dwelled outside the garden. The Old Testament is the story of the world and of the Jews. Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the Jews, not mankind, just God's chosen people.

While I personally don't believe in God, to totally dismiss the Bible is wrong. It has a lot of value as an historical record, albeit a distorted and innacurate one. Historians and Archaeologists have confirmed much of the old testament events in relation to the Egyptians etc.

While I don't think that creationists will be left with a leg to stand on in the end, to totally dismiss the bible as a record of past events is wrong.
 andyaa
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 187
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:25:05 AM

In some respects the bible is a very accurate story. We know there was a flood. It even shows that Adam and Eve weren't the first man and woman, Eve was Adam's second partner, Lilith was his first - and returned to her people who dwelled outside the garden. The Old Testament is the story of the world and of the Jews. Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the Jews, not mankind, just God's chosen people.


You were doing really well up till this point Jim

You are reading too much of the King James Version of events, which, is the poorest of all the modern translations of the Old Testament.

There is no mention in the bible or anyone resembling Lilith, or Adam having a first wife. If you read the original Hebrew Old testament, up to chapter 2.4 they talk about how the universe, space, time came into being, how the earth was formed, and how animals appeared including man. From chapter 2.4 the bible then changes slightly and talks about [god] and how he made man in detail after his own image. The King James Version of the bible makes it look like 2 separate events, which of course it isn't, it is 1 event described twice.

If you want to read a little bit about Lilith try this blog page

http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2006/11/lilith-semen-demon-or-feminist-icon.html

There's a lot of misunderstanding of the bible, which leads to what people come up with on here.
 satsumo
Joined: 12/7/2007
Msg: 188
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:12:31 AM
Well, heaterogay, me old mucker, it wasn't meant in such a literal way.

Intelligent design as a concept says that you should stop looking for answers after a certain point. That some questions are unanswerable to cause and effect.

ID started in the US. A group of creationists wanted Genesis taught in science lessons. Religion presented to children as acknowledged fact. They took a school to court over it and lost. At this point, they came up with ID, really the same idea with a scientific polish added. They took that to court and lost again. It was even shown that part of their testimony was the material used in the first trial, but with the word 'creationism' replaced with 'intelligent design'.

ID revolves around irreducible complexity - the idea that some things cannot be understood beyond a particular point. So don't bother looking, you won't find any answers, you just have to admit it was designed. Even if ID could find flaws in evolution theory, why would you believe something deliberately changed things when there is no evidence for it? Do you believe Santa Claus left you presents? There's no evidence for that either.

What is it that does this designing anyway? It's never defined. God, aliens, the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster?

Imagine applying this another problem, dark matter -

Q: Why does the matter at the edge of a galaxy, spin faster than it should?
Sc: There might be dark matter at the edge of the Galaxy.
ID: Something unknown might be pushing it.
Q: Can you prove your idea?
Sc: We could look for evidence of dark matter.
ID: Erm, err, no need to prove it, it's just like that.



absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence

You're right, abscence of evidence isn't evidence of anything. It certainly isn't evidence of design.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2007/jun/01/schools.uk1

Apologies for taking liberties with your name, you started it.
 Dyk tafims
Joined: 2/4/2008
Msg: 189
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:35:52 AM
years ago they laughed at people who said the earth was round.this has now been proven to be correct.
years ago some old codgers made up some rather far fetched stories and called it a bible. this has now been proven to be a load of codswollop.
Please get real.
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