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 Another1A
Joined: 5/23/2007
Msg: 41
Capital PunishmentPage 3 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
No amount of money can restore life after murder or innocence after rape. Revenge does not make a person feel better. We delude ourselves in thinking that it will. No punishment is enough to take away the pain. Only forgiveness can relieve it.
1a
 Politically INCORRECT
Joined: 8/14/2007
Msg: 42
Capital Punishment
Posted: 10/30/2007 12:04:27 AM
^^ Of course, never suggested otherwise.
However, why let a criminal have a second crack at his personal expressions of angst at the expense of the rest of society?

Specific deterrence works 100% of the time.
 DevineDene
Joined: 10/12/2006
Msg: 43
Capital Punishment
Posted: 10/30/2007 6:55:56 AM

Specific deterrence works 100% of the time.


Unfortunately, there is no returning a life if we inadvertently punish an innocent.
In extreme cases like Dahmer and his ilk I agree that we should execute. However, being a fallible race with many corrupt people in and out of the justice system, we have yet to find a way to prove with 100% surety that we are indeed executing the right person after the first crime is committed. Except on rare occasion where such crimes are recorded or witnessed by many.
In the meantime perhaps a change in the way we treat criminals who are incarcerated would be a step in the right direction. Those that have (beyond a reasonable doubt) committed atrocities against others should be made to work the most heinous jobs we have and no inmate nor company should profit from that work. All monies earned could then be divided between the victims and the justice system to offset the costs incurred. I would also like to see those we call dangerous offenders (the three strikes), executed rather then simply locked away from the general population, as we know those particular people are incurable.

We must IMO always be careful to rise above our outrage and not become the very thing we wish to eradicate.

DD
 Politically INCORRECT
Joined: 8/14/2007
Msg: 45
Capital Punishment
Posted: 10/30/2007 9:00:12 AM

In extreme cases like Dahmer and his ilk I agree that we should execute.
..Except on rare occasion where such crimes are recorded or witnessed by many.
...I would also like to see those we call dangerous offenders (the three strikes), executed rather then simply locked away from the general population, as we know those particular people are incurable.

Cases with incontrovertible proof.

We must IMO always be careful to rise above our outrage and not become the very thing we wish to eradicate.

Agree in principle.
In truth...the dark side of my nature would wish they suffer the same as their victim....before granting them eternal "peace."
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 46
Capital Punishment
Posted: 10/30/2007 4:39:31 PM
I have to agree...scientific study has PROVEN that the death penalty works. Not one person who had it carried out ever committed another crime. Absolute proof positive that it works.

I figure that those who are "without a doubt guilty", like Ing, Bernardo, Olson should be executed. In public. Those who "accidentally" shot a bystander in a driveby shooting need the same treatment. Their own attitude towards human life requires society to make sure they never, ever harm another human being ever.

Lesser crimes could be punished by public humiliation. This works in some countries. Being "caned" seems a bit extreme, even to me, but, when the general populance is asked, their greatest fear (which stops them from committing a criminal act) is fear of public humiliation at being caned. Nobody wants that to happen. Few re-offend after that kind of thing. There was a case where an American kid got caught stealing cars...and the president of the USA even went to bat for him to get this kid out of caning. The family moves back to the states...and within days the kid steals another car...basically thumbing his nose at the authorities, the President and his own family. That kid needed to be publically humiliated...but managed to turn the tables. Sick pup.

We could clear up a lot of prison space by this method. Instead of allowing prisoners to intermingle, they could be kept in solitary. This way they don't come out "better criminals" such as they do now. They could be encouraged to get their diplomas...perhaps even forced to in a way...their sentance isn't up until they DO get it.

Killing off the murderers could work. Or...they could be dumped on an island and left there. Let them fend for themselves, and have the Navy patrol the area to keep out anyone, and keep them there. Or even dump them in a box canyon in the mountains and allow the army to keep tabs on them there. No other guards...no fences (except for the entrance gate one)...no alarms....they had disreguard of human life...then society can disregard theirs...but leave it to them to survive on their own.

Or...leave them in solitary....with a rope. No books. The only thing they get to read is court transcripts from their trial. Fed 3 times a day. They could have an exit out to a "dogrun" outside. Separate from everyone else, and only open for an hour a day. Any trouble with them going back in...they get stunned and dragged in.

As it is....some prisons are factories and shops. Many companies have their mail-order program set up through prisons, with the prisoners taking the orders, etc. Feel comfy with that? I know I don't. but, they have something to do.
 BergZ
Joined: 11/9/2006
Msg: 49
Capital Punishment
Posted: 11/3/2007 11:04:17 PM
I think what the OP is trying to describe is the "Paradox of the Death Penalty".
I'll try to describe it, as best I can, please bear with me if there are a few mistake (I'm going from memory here):
IF (Premise 1) Murder is a capital crime, punishable by execution THEN
it logically follows that an accused will be tried by the state in a court of law.
IF (Premise 2) Courts make mistakes THEN
it logically follows that at some point in time a mistake will be made and an innocent person will be wrongfully convicted and executed.
IF (Premise 3) The state acts on our behalf THEN
it logically follows that when an innocent person is killed: We, the people, share the guilt of killing an innocent person.
IF (Premise 4) The killing of an innocent person is murder THEN
it logically follows that we, the people, are guilty of murder which carries the penalty of death.
 Mr. Raitano
Joined: 10/23/2007
Msg: 50
Capital Punishment
Posted: 11/3/2007 11:26:56 PM
One of the problems I see with it is that it isn't used the way justice was meant to be dealt out...swift and severe.

An average of 18 years on death row before you exhaust all of your appeals.

In China you can be tried, sentenced and executed all in the same day.

Executions should be carried out in full public, and no more needle.

Hanging, firing squad, ax-man/guillotine, hell I would even be ok with burning at the stake for the really bad ones like child molesters, rapists, and so on.

The punishment for the crime should be so vile you never want to commit the crime. And just to show other what will happen to them if they do.
 NocturnalPrincess
Joined: 8/26/2006
Msg: 52
Capital Punishment
Posted: 4/21/2009 11:46:03 PM
Keeping someone alive with a life sentence while subsidizing their legal fees is an unnecessary expense ro the taxpayers. A dog that is designated as viscious is automatically "put down" and a two-legged animal should be no exception to that standard. Further, if humans are supposed to be capable of rational thinking then they should be that much more sentenced to death.
Their Victims did not have the luxury of humane treatment, did they?

Why do they have a physician examine a person on death row to make sure that they are heathy enough to die, anyway?
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 53
view profile
History
Capital Punishment
Posted: 4/22/2009 1:43:27 PM
Murder is the intentional illegal killing of another person. You're idea to let the person live with their guilt is seriously flawed. Alot of them don't have any guilt and would kill again if given the chance. The murders family has to do without them if they live or not. Either (s)he's in prison or dead. Also executions don't happen that quickly. It normally takes several years before it actually happens. I think that if you had any first hand experience with criminals you would change your mind.
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 55
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/1/2010 12:38:23 AM
i disagree with every form of execution bar lethal injection with anaesthesia.
we don't make a habit of hanging, shooting, stoning or beheading animals when putting them down. even if a dog has attacked a child, it's still put down humanely.
humans can commit the most grotesque crimes and it's not that they ''deserve'' to die with dignity but they are entitled to it(?) cruel and unusual punishments especially carried out publicly as a deterrance (islamic countries) ignores that the perpetrator has a family that also suffers, doubly so, casualties of the crime and the punishment. barbaric punishments, imo, denotes us as barbarians.
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 56
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/1/2010 1:14:10 AM
quotes are from the following thread:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/14114774datingPostpage2.aspx (msg 49)


I find them to be fairly well outlined in the constitution, a basic set of laws that appropriately points out that the death penalty CAN and SHOULd be used in some cases.

not disputing the rationale of the death penalty. do note though, ''appropriately'' is your opinion only, it's not a unanimous view.


Define "human rights"
it does say not to use cruel punicshment, but doesn't define cruelty.

common sense tells you that. referral to the constitution not required.
in the past, executions were limited to the methods they had available at the time.
you rationalize using shifting beliefs. it's still cruel.
 m14shooter
Joined: 10/2/2009
Msg: 57
view profile
History
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/1/2010 1:41:33 AM
I have zero faith in the courts or the prosecutors in this country so I would like it to be eliminated. They have on many occasions put people in prison for crimes they did not commit so how can I trust them when a persons life is at stake.
 valenciacityx
Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 60
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/2/2010 11:05:10 PM
IF you are going to have capital punishment, get on with it. 6 months on death row, and then done. Not 25 years on death row; that is not a deterent. And it certainly aint cost effective.
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 61
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/2/2010 11:13:49 PM
^ the system needs an overhaul. it's so expensive because they can't get it right. there should be an edict related to attorney's fees and charges. as it is, taxpayers will continue to get fleeced by rip-off merchants. recent case here, an ex-worker (25 yo female publicist) of a retail giant is suing her former employer for $37 million for..wait for it...sexual harrassment. my immediate thoughts turned to the greedy lawyers behind it. taking grubby advantage of this scandalous news story ..making a mockery of the legal system and undermining future claims in the process..felt i had to digress to explain where i'm coming from.
my views: sentence where guilt is 100% certain, where there's malicious intent and no remorse (consider psychological state as appropriate). reduce the extent of appeals, expedite them in the courts. dramatically shorten the time up to execution. award no special privileges to inmates. suicide can't be attempted if self-harm instruments weren't available (includes surroundings) - it's the correctional facility's responsbility. it shouldn't take years of appeals for dna tests, this should be mandatory for death rowers!
this isn't put forward as absolute support of the death penalty..i'm attempting to asnwer problems that exist within the current system. i don't have an insider's perspective so it might sound naive. it's faulty in any case. my suggestions would actually reduce capital punishment due to the leeway allowed via expression of remorse. damn, there'll be no-one on death row..hmm. however remose shouldn't equate to reduced sentences. life sentences should be carried out in lieu.
i accept it's complicated.
i agree with the view that resists execution if the offence was committed before legal age.
whatever changes are needed, capital punishment in and of itself shouldn't be reduced to economics as it concern's people's lives. punishment/retribution and deterrence should be the considerations (but if being on death row isn't deterrent enough, zero chance lifetime sentences huh!). must also avoid prolonging mental anguish.

we don't make a habit of hanging, shooting, stoning or beheading animals when putting them down.

to add, we also don't electrocute animals either. if a humane way is available (lethal injection as i previously stated) then i understand the use of it.

lastly staceyssc, atheists follow their own commandments.
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 63
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/3/2010 2:39:52 AM
the case i described has taken the unprecedented step of suing for 5% of the CEO's (the accused) earnings plus 5% of the company's profits, extraordinarily dictating the pecuniary terms, apparently ''to donate the money to a charity that helps victims of sexual harassment and bullying'' according to the statement of claim. this charitable zeal doesn't fall within the plaintiff's claiming rights..wtf? she is probably more devastated by the news coverage than anything..it has likely influenced her claim when it shouldn't have!




Do you have any idea what it takes to actually win a harrassment case?
The few who get large settlements usually deserve every penny.

it doesn't take or deserve $37 million thats for sure.
i suspect self-harm can happen to lifers as well, it's not restricted to death row inmates.
it's no wonder death rowers do it when they're stuck for yeaaars in limbo awaiting appeals. it's ridiculous that it takes 20-30 years..something is seriously wrong.
guilt isn't 100% insofar as you're not usually the first-hand witness. but perps also confess. or witnesses come forward such as surviving victims. relatively uncommon perhaps but it does happen. or a series of compelling material evidence (eg dna, victim's personal belongings in the perp's home, bullets - casings, fragments or matching striations to a firearm owned by the perp) minus a reasonable explanation. quite convincing.
personally i think the decision should probably rest with the victim's family..and they can change their mind from the death penalty should they choose to..in which case, there's no going back as it's not right to bounce the inmate around.
i'm in command of my own thoughts (my beliefs), that's a bit harsh, prison you say!
it's hypocritical and contradictory to use god whilst criticizing an eye for an eye, it's what the bible states after all.
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 64
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/3/2010 3:53:52 AM
by the way, you find solutions to suicidal options as they arise. put them in padded cells ... head-banging gone - check, toothbrush filing gone - check. they'll hardly drown by dunking their heads in the toilet, drats! - check. and wow, how does one make alcohol out of food..remove food item - check. remove coffee creamer, no explosives - check. wow they're more resourceful than al-qaeda.
problems only stay problems when nothing is done about them!
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 66
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/3/2010 10:18:18 PM
the technology must be available nowadays for strengthened padding. build the thing and it's done, one-off cost, it's not like ongoing/future health costs and effects from self-harm attempts. or just haul them off to the mental hospital and put them in a straitjacket. hoarding foods is nothing..without yeast starters, certain other substances and equipment, no alcohol production is possible. no ignition sources either, for one, check and clear visitors in properly to prevent contraband. get on top of them so their ideas lose effectiveness . all i keep hearing are excuses excuses excuses. for what? indifference and unresponsiveness?
and cap pecuniary claims .. to scupper visions of $$$+.
america is the land of multi-million dollar settlements. millions are awarded against defendants who aren't even capable of paying..or a 150 year prison sentence (bernie madoff). judgements of absurd proportions ...no wonder people lose touch with reality, the skies the limit! suing in the hopes of getting a massive payday is nonetheless the expectation. the sex harrassment claimant blatantly oversteps the bounds of her claim..to generate publicity (ie $$$) for the circling sharks (the law firm)..
 Truthisee
Joined: 5/2/2010
Msg: 67
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/4/2010 9:13:09 AM
If someone is found guilty of a Capital Offense, ie Murder or Child Rape, we should take them behind the court house and put a bullet in the back of their head...

maybe hold up a mirror so they can watch themselves die.

 Lesa Dawn
Joined: 9/30/2009
Msg: 68
Capital Punishment
Posted: 8/27/2010 1:28:14 AM
I oppose capital punish because we know the judicial system is ineffective and corrupt. The Innocence project has so far freed TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY EIGHT innocoent people. This does not include the numbers freed by other law firms or the innocent who have no DNA evidence to help prove their innocence.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

The system is not about justice. It is about advancing the careers of prosecutors, criminalists and police officers.
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