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 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 41
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier Page 2 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
While I don't agree with him going AWOL, this guy, who served 6 years as an airbourne infantryman, 1 year of that on the ground in Iraq, and experienced all of the things that he wrote about,can hardly be a coward.


So I assume that unlike some people in this thread, you do not feel he should be "shot" , or considered a "traitor"? How about imprisoned for lengthy periods of time like a murderer or rapist?
When you say you don't agree, perhaps you should expand and say what kind of punishment you believe he is entitled to? While you are not thought to be the authority on the subject, having an opinion doesn't hurt!
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 43
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/10/2007 6:10:06 PM

Do remember, you were the one on the soapbox campaign of asking what I knew about being a soldier, therefore, I informed you what I knew, that simple.

I find this Irrelevant to current discussion, but it was previously Noted. I cannot divine everyones past.

Actually, this particular soldier fits the term "traitor" to a tee, the term traitor means "1. Someone who commits treason" it's obvious he did as such. "2. A person who says one thing, and does another), this is obvious as well, he raised his right hand and swore to protect against all foreign and domestic, yes, he originally went, which is where he fulfilled his oath, but one can not only fulfill the oath to our country when it is to their liking, therefore, proving the fact further, that yes, he is indeed a traitor.

1) I believe your term of treason to be over-extended.
2) He made a promise based on faulty information. I consider this *Entrapment*.

So you have not "Proved" any air-tight "Fact" that he is "Indeed a Traitor"
Merely muddled the issue with empty rhetoric.

But it will be fruitless for the two of us to discuss this further.
I suggest waiting for others - we clearly have unreconcilable differences at the roots of our thinking
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 45
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/10/2007 6:22:04 PM
For as long as there has been military, the definition of "Treason" has been stretched and abused to force compliance. I do not need anyone to jump in, and I like finding common ground, but it is not always possible. We feel differently about the word treason. I believe it is an abused and abusive word.
He raised a right hand. Big deal.
Don't get to caught up in tradition and custom that it harms those it shouldn't.

Entrapment
"The luring by a law enforcing agency into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act."

He was not agreeing to what he thought he was agreeing to.
A previously uncontemplated illegal act?
Sounds like it fits the bill.

"Buy my coke and I'll help your friend out, it'll be great!"
"Join the army and liberate Iraq, you'll be a hero!"
Both free choices, both entrapment.

 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 47
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/10/2007 6:45:44 PM
the Iraqi war was not "officially" illegal.

I wasn't as clear as possible. If I was this guy's lawyer I'd have vivid examples of government taking advantage of the concept of "treason" (such as cases where political dissent is considered treason), and make sure to be clear. I wasn't so I'll make one last attempt, then my brother needs my help with some school. Also don't want the posts deleted for being too 1 on 1.

The military by claiming he would be a hero, a liberator, and/or a patriot he believes when enlisting as a soldier he would be doing the right thing for America and Iraq, yet he latter finds out he and his brethren are dying for the rich, and destroying the stability of the middle east! Traumatized by this he tries to escape, and is captured and slain/imprisoned as a traitor.

By distorting the truth, those in power put him in a situation where he would feel like he is doing the wrong thing, and rather than continuing to do the wrong thing, he flees. In essence, they tricked him into a situation where he would commit an illegal act, in this case the illegal act is "treason".

This is my case for Entrapment.
Do you see my arguement?
Lets agree to disagree :)
 OneBlend
Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/10/2007 6:48:08 PM
This was posted on another forum - considering the subject has arisen again, heres some truth about fox news. (As if we didn't already know)
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6737097743434902428&q=outfoxed
My perspective: You can't illegally leave an illegal war. Good for the young men who figured it out and want out. They were "MISled" in.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 55
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/11/2007 6:24:27 AM
you state that it's "ok" to perform an illegal act due to supposedly
our country performing an illegal act

Not really what I said. This has nothing to do with the UN. But if you mean the illegal act the country performed is entrapment, then yes. It makes sense.
There's a reason the term deserter exists - its far more accurate. Traitor brings to mind one who abandons a country and then works against it - using his gained military knowledge or whatnot and fighting against his homeland. Like 006 is a traitor to 007 in Goldeneye :P

If one deserts that does not instantly make anything he says wrong, any reasons he has wrong, any beliefs he has wrong. That's simply demented and narrow-minded. You keep saying he has no right to thisandthisandthis... I wish a soldier with more heart, more mind. and generally more humane/human would speak up.
Law and military law can be Garbage. Guantanamo Bay. Blind trust is just plain STUPID.

I wish more soldiers were traitors also, so this war couldn't stay afloat any longer.
'Traitors' in Vietnam were eventually absolved and allowed to return home without punishment. A mark against this propaganda machine you fight so hard for?
If there were more traitors then that war could have ended sooner too!
WWII we may not have wanted such a thing, but would the moral objections readily available in this war be available there as well? **No.** Stop putting unlike situations together for justification!! The country would not have lost its freedom if people exercised their freedom - nope- SORRY!
Those that wanted to leave in WW2 probably DID and we see the result.
Don't sweat it.

I wish your energies were spent on something more constructive like helping out the abandoned vets. This is abusive not very constructive or useful talk at all. No, I do not think he should return to the country to prove his convictions, and I think you know he shouldn't as well. Why return merely to be punished? No reason to subject yourself to unjust laws. Just stay out until all are absolved like vietnam when it is publicly admitted the war was not defending our freedom and was built on LIES to serve the Rich, by taking Advantage of soldiers. And even making demons of those who actively fight this evil war JUST LIKE THIS. I would have stayed so I wouldn't have to fear unjust retribution, but that's me.

You say TRAITOR - yet I can see many also saying HERO
A victim of the government who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Wellsaid amirite? :P
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 57
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/11/2007 5:26:48 PM

so i guess by this logic that the people that ran out on there country during ww2 while the world was fighting for freedom , well i guess they would be heroes also

Not even remotely suggested. And if you think you know my logic more than I do...
Thanks for coming out but you fail to twist my words convincingly. Sorry.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 64
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/11/2007 8:05:06 PM
They (Iraqis) are now PROTESTING AGAINST the Americans in support of leaving Iraq

No, the Iraqi people want the US / Coalition forces out.
Common knowledge. Google/Yahoo/Any Search Engine and see what the vast majority of polls say. And not just what Iraqis say, but US citizens/military.


"F*** with the USA and we will be in your back yard for a long time".

Iraq was not an aggressor. Iran will not be an aggressor.
Afghanistan was not an aggressor. Many claim that the majority 15/19 of the attackers were Saudi. No nation attacked. A rogue group did.
I don't recall Afghanistan gov't saying 'no we will not hand over bin laden'. Pull a confident source. Not Bush/cronies. They contradicted themselves so many times.
Even after Invasion US still has not succeeded in his capture so it seems they expected too much of Afghanistan, or it played out exactly as they thought.
Isn't he out in some Pakistan/Afghanistan no-mans land?
Doesn't seem to have much to do with the heart of Afghan land.
In all cases - regime change is not a legitimate reason for invasion.
Even with WMDs (never found) pre-emptive invasion is not legitimate.
Though if there WERE usable WMDs as there are in many countries there wouldn't BE an invasion in fear of attack!

But I've spent enough time on this. Not my country.
I'll just have to sit back and keep an eye on how the next couple years go :P
The one thing I know for sure is there is a lot of hectic crap in the near future, haha.

But thank you for a polite and well-mannered post!
Time will show who is right or wrong, hm?
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 66
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 12:03:08 AM
Please do me a favor, do not go to media outlets for facts, instead grab them from government websites

So it is supposed to be indisputable that the people should feel that the majority of the free press is lying to attack the government, and the government is innocent and totally unbiased in their reports? Have you forgotten how many times they have lied to your face and done total 180 degree changes in their direction of focus, or even what they believe to be true and untrue?

(WMDs definately there (then not),BinLaden #1 Priority (then not), Saddam assisting AQ or playing a part in 911 (then later said not), Iran to definately have a nuclear weapons program (then later said not).... And almost every time, except with Iran, when asked later why they said what they did, officials claim they never said it - when there is video proof that they did!

(with Iran instead of saying there was no accusation of CURRENT proof - the "fact"(probably not) that Iran did have WMD intent is proof they want it now. Russia saying they still do not believe the part of the report saying there ever was a program)

Question, if Joe Blow sends someone to your house to assassinate you, you catch the dude, and he tells you Joe Blow sent you, and you find Joe Blow hiding out in John Doe's apartment under John Doe's consent, when you ask John Doe for Joe Blow, and he says, over his dead body, wouldn't that kinda make John Doe an aggressor, that of harboring an aggressor?

I'd rather the names you intended to be there be used instead. Are you saying Saddam harbored the Al-Quaida who attack on 9/11? Because that simply isn't true. The attackers weren't caught, and Saddam never said 'piss off you're not getting the terrorists'.
Not easy to believe the claim against Iran either - though neither side is innocent. Sanctions based on as much WMD evidence as Iraq, and incidents like the sinking of Iranian aircraft in Iranian waters.

Actually a little reading into fact/history will tell you they were [the aggressors], as Afghanistan was overrun by the Taliban

The Taliban's role in Afghanistan is Afghanistan's issue. They are Not Al-Quaida.
I can see how we will not believe eachother's information, as I rely on non-governmental sources, and you do the opposite.

If you want to blame someone for the war, blame congress

Congress has been failing just as badly as the Administration, no argument there.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 67
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:01:32 AM
.org? I read that but figure those sites would have opinions going both ways.
And the Joe Blow stuff was written underneath a quote on Iran/Iraq so I naturally assumed you were talking about Iran/Iraq. Scroll up! You'll see it.
AQ the elite leadership in the Taliban?
Is this one of those 'secret leaderships'?
Or can we get some shots of those on top in AQ and the Taliban knocking back cold ones?
.... or something..... Tax money clearly handed off to them maybe?
Overall though I'm not as sharp on the first invasion :P

Late edit. But if there's solid proof the taliban openly supported osama then I can see justification for THAT one.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 68
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:14:20 AM
That's AQ sponsoring the Taliban *post*-invasion.
I can see a desperate ex-government getting funding from anywhere.
But what about before 9/11? Before the invasion of Afghanistan?
It's not your job to dig that far back but if you'd like to...

I don't enjoy being a stickler, but someone has to be.
There HAD to be a link BEFORE invasion, or there would be no reason to blame the Taliban, right?

edit after reading reply (dont want to make a bigger chain :p)
I hope you're right and the US was 100% Positive they[Taliban] were willfully harboring him[Osama] before they went in.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 69
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:27:10 AM
...the US people become lazy...

This is worth making a new reply. I've posted about it once before. If people truly believe the system is corrupt they [the people] can't just throw votes into a system the they claim to be corrupt and hope a president will be their knight in shining armor!
America seems to be the perfect place for peaceful demonstration, don't you agree?
Unlike how it was for the Tibetan monks, if people had the strength to gather by the millions and demonstrate they don't have to fear being slaughtered! It is no time to be lazy.

Hmm I think the URL got copied wrong. Getting a wrong page sort of deal.
"There is an end-user problem. If you have reached this site from a web link,"
But yes, Americans cannot put blind faith on a perfect president arising.
If they truly believe elections to be rigged and all the other things we both hear of there should be stronger action.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 72
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:35:00 AM
Get that link working, lol.
It looks promising.

But yeah, I've heard lots of people saying they don't see worthy candidates, find officials and judged cherry-picked for the wrong reasons, find businesses to dominate politicians, see both parties as working for the same side... but even if they are right, they still have the power to change it. Claiming to be powerless is looking for the easy way out of effort.


http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/300/44/PDF/N9930044.pdf?OpenElement
This one. Not opening a PDF. Just baby blue page with an error message?
Do I not have authorization or accessed improperly? I don't get it.
I have acrobat.

""There is an end-user problem. If you have reached this site from a web link,
- Through your internet options, adjust your privacy settings to allow cookies or
- Check your security settings and make sure this site has not been blocked or
- You are probably using a very slow link that may not work well with this application.
Otherwise you have reached this site through unauthorized means.""
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 74
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:53:51 AM
"The PEOPLE should NEVER fear their government, but the GOVERNMENT should always fear the people"

I like it.

And still the same error :( I'm not a stubborn mule with unchangeable opinions.
At least on Afghanistan - if the link works. Maybe I'll try to navigate their info on my own.
I'll have to do it tomorrow. Leave the link that comes the page before it maybe so I have somewhere easy to start?

Grrr not even the base of the URL
http://daccessdds.un.org/
Is giving me access. Unfortunate.
Edited post above to show full error message.
I am aware of in your post history you know a thing or two about computers.

Thanks again for mature discussion
Working on Uni application process then sleep.
Night.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 76
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 2:09:27 AM
Ack. Same thing but with ads and free web hosting and a pop up.
Oh well don't worry about it.
 irish5
Joined: 8/25/2007
Msg: 92
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 3:02:19 PM
VolcanoBoy: Your name suits you.....volitile, full of hot air and not quite a man yet.

Just out of curiosity, after reading all the comments re: the awol soldier, I viewed your profile and was not suprised after I read it. In it you state," HOWEVER even if the world is out of control I want to spend my time squeezing out the last of the FUN rather than devoting all my time to slow the inevitable, or simply arguing." It seems that you comments to a soldier who served her time and HAS been there, were very hateful and argumentative. So basically you do not even stand behind your own "profile" of yourself so how can anyone take your comments seriously. What exactly do you stand for?

Oh yeah.......people who haven't been there shouldn't speak of how it is. You made comments assuming that nona had not been there and now you just look foolish.

Someone who volunteers to join the military and wants all the benefits that go with it should stay true to their word. Lots of people were all too happy to join and get the traveling, medical , financial, and educational benefits but when it came time to DO THEIR DUTY they cower away. sad sad sad.... And yes I beleive the "poor soldier" everyone was speaking about should have been court martialed!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 95
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:08:57 PM
There is nothing cowardly about what this man has done. I think it's extremely brave to stand up and admit that you have made a wrong decision for yourself. I think he only went AWOL out of desparation.

I firmly believe if he had appealed to be allowed to leave (or not deploy) they never would have let him. From things my daughter told me when she was there ... if a person said too much about not wanting to be there ... not believing in the supposed purpose for being there ... they could pretty much expect a bullet to the head ... from their fellow soldiers.

How very sad ... I thought we as humans had progressed past such acts of insanity.
 irish5
Joined: 8/25/2007
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 8:33:05 PM
I feel no pity for someone who joins the MILITARY and doesn't think they need to fulfill their oath. I guess too many people think it's ok to break your own word. I just don't understand!!!What do people think when they join a military organization? If they are required to go to war by orders passed down to them why would their be an alternative to doing that? They are in the military not a college frat. Once again if you don't want the possiblity of being sent to war don't join the military. That is the bottom line.
 irish5
Joined: 8/25/2007
Msg: 99
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/12/2007 8:36:24 PM
cotter: I am also glad your daughter made it home. Warm wishes to you and yours on her safe return.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 100
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/13/2007 1:59:48 AM
VolcanoBoy: Your name suits you... hateful&arguementative to Nona...ect

most volcanos are not in danger of eruption, contain lot more than hot air.. ah but I digress.
If you really want to know what I associate with the name you can message me.

Me hateful? I was a bit shocked at the violence people wished on the AWOL soldier so I respond with a fraction of the ire Ive seen. Ive cooled down since then and most posts responding to her have been respectful and civil as i am at most times. I liked the last quote I saw for example.

Foolish? Im not clairovoyant and I've already addressed that specifically.
Arguementative? Girl you might want to take a good look at yourself. I don't grab for straws trying to insult someones name, and quoting their profile for a thread because it happens to contain the word "arguing". Irony.

What do I stand for?
Learning, talking about more than celebs and seinfeld, planning ahead, not being so serious about life that I seem like a stiff, drinking lots on the rare times I do drink, pleasuring female partners as a priority before my own. It's a tough question which you don't care about so
what's your point?

Oh and did you know Ageism is a form of discrimination?
Apologize in PM and I'll forgive you.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 108
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/13/2007 6:51:32 AM

I _____ swear (or affirm as the case may be) to be trued to the United States of America, and to serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies opposers whatsoever ......
This is what my daughter and several of her fellow officers had a problem with ... the so-called "ENEMY".

Once many of our soldiers get to Iraq and actually see what's going on over there (and here at home), they realize that they are there for the pure greed of a few. They are putting their lives on the line so that a few can line their pockets. They are being killed, maimed, and mutilated so that a few can get richer.

They know they are killing innocent people so that a corrupt administration can satisfy it's lust for greed and power. I can well understand that a soldier who is truly dedicated to the job of defending his/her country could get very disappointed and upon realizing exactly what they are doing ... change their mind about it.

That does not make them a COWARD.

It takes guts to realize when you have made a mistake and stand up and say so. It also takes guts to stand up for what you know in your heart is not right. It takes guts to tell a superior that what they are asking you to do is above and beyond the call of duty ... or better yet ... not even an expectation in the line of duty.

It's not the job of our military to be at the beck and call of a warmongering greedy administration ... H3llbent on steeling OIL from other countries. Any soldier that does not believe in aiding and abetting that crook in the white house and his cronies ... should not have to go to Iraq.

Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with the Twin Towers being destroyed ... there is no reason for our military to be there.
 VolcanoBoy
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 110
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/13/2007 8:18:09 AM
At any time congress could re-enact the draft in the USA, just as easy as they shut it down and I'll be you every dollar in the Federal Reserves that there won't be very many problems with AWOL

Just opinion here but if the draft was re-enacted, or Iran invaded and the draft re-enacted, I think a lot of things would fall apart. I don't think it would be working with the same kind of people as before- could they really respect an oath or promises forced on them? There would be so many AWOL soldiers, and people trying to flee to Canada - which I don't think would work with Harper. He might just ship em all back under pressure. Or not and get Canada invaded lol.
But maybe they would honor it. I would be incredibly surprised.
I'd suspect civil war though.

Lol had to come back and check to make sure I didn't say we. I used to have that issue. So much crossover media, cartoons, news and everything here.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 112
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/13/2007 3:16:51 PM

If your daughter along with "others" had such a problem with it,then
why did they still join?
My daughter signed up before "Mr. McGreedy" went after Iraq's OIL.



It's not the job of our military to be at the beck and call of a
warmongering greedy administration ... H3llbent on steeling OIL
from other countries.
actually, yes it is, no matter the administration, the military is
a tool and I would suggest if someone does not want to fight, do not
join, it's that simple, as compared to getting scared and running like
a coward.
With all due respect ... the military is not the president's "personal" tool to use as he wishes ... whether it is to go in and blatantly steal / rob another country's natural resources or put up Thanksgiving decorations on the white house lawn.

There is a specific purpose to have a military in place and it's not being used for that purpose in Iraq.
 msquared
Joined: 8/31/2004
Msg: 127
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/16/2007 10:38:48 AM

Actualy what he is saying and it is true, diplomacy with terrorists does not work, history shows this and has showed this time and time again


If history has shown this time and time again, it shouldn't be difficult for you to present some examples of this. I challenge you to do so.
 msquared
Joined: 8/31/2004
Msg: 131
view profile
History
Open Letter to the Government from an AWOL Soldier
Posted: 12/16/2007 12:11:05 PM

Any more challenges? Let me know. Thanks


You haven't answered my first one yet. You gave me examples of negotiations under extreme circumstances, in which the terrorist action is currently happening. What I asked for are examples of diplomacy, which is commonly used to prevent this kind of situation.
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