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 AUTHOR
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 818
Dinner Date - Who Pays?Page 33 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)
Wild heart, you've said it much better than I could have. Questioning the assumptions under which we were raised is the essential act of individual freedom. Until we do that, we're just acting out a part.

When a date is going well, paying really isn't an issue for me. I've been dating a very nice woman lately, who has been very puzzled by my posts here because when I'm with her I'm generous. And why not? She is also generous with me and saw value in who I am before the matter of who pays ever came up. In fact, she paid for our first date to help me celebrate an important milestone at work! (I have more than made up for it since, in case any of you are grumbling "cheapskate" as seems to be the wont of some.)

So, instead of beating y'all up about it, as I have been doing, let me just invite you to raise the question in your own minds. Does the traditional custom of having the man invite (and therefore pay) make us more free, more proud, more equal? Or are we trading off something very important for a momentary sense of comfort.

If you'll think about that, then I promise to respect whatever conclusion you come to.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 819
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 10:08:18 AM

Does the traditional custom of having the man invite (and therefore pay) make us more free, more proud, more equal? Or are we trading off something very important for a momentary sense of comfort.


Is it just me? Because I totally don't understand your point in that comment?

Being free, proud and equal just isn't something that would even occur to me in a dating venue?

BTW...if anyone had asked my opinion...I would have never agreed to an "equality" that included losing my identity as female...
 real1foryou
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 824
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/6/2008 12:40:54 PM
When going out for dinner on a date, the 15 year old boy pays for the dinner.
If you are adults, your dating life has matured beyond that stage. The tradition comes from the young boy showing that he will provide for the woman and their kids and she will bear children, take care of his home and children. So you need to ask yourself? are you a 15 year old and she will fulfill the balance of the equation? If not, adults never expect others to pay their way for anything whatsoever. There is no such thing as 'inviting' when you are an adult. You may suggest an activity to do together and it's up to the other person to decide if they want to go as well which includes if they can afford it or want to spend their time or money in that manner along side of you. Slow dancing in the living room is romantic, shows mutual interest, and doesn't have anything to do with financial ability or expectation.
 real1foryou
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 827
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/6/2008 4:50:11 PM
Dinner date is a teenage thing. Nothing romantic about paying an adults bills; house, car, or food. We do outgrow teenage habits but that doesn't mean romance isn't alive and well at any age. Just wrong to tell people that just because they come up with an idea for doing something together that it means it's an invitation. As a matter of fact, invitations for weddings often involve spending much more as the invitee than the those who sent out the invitation. Going out to dinner is not an invitation. It is an offer of his time ONLY. That fact that you find guys who will pay for YOUR time doesn't mean you aren't a vicious user of men.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 828
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/6/2008 9:32:51 PM

Good point. Paying does not show any romance, especially if its expected by both parties. It needs to be shown in other ways.


Well, obviously, it isn't the only way..however, first of all...I am not going to anyone's living room, or theirs to mine on a first or second date?

Second of all...I don't think other people can define what is romantic for anyone other than themselves...everyone has their own ideas of what they find romantic..and men and women vary widely all over the board, as they seem to these days in everything....


I would not let customs dictate what decides your identity as a female. Such as staying in the home taking care of children till your husband gets home with a fully cooked meal.


Custom doesn't dictate...but, my own feelings, thoughts, perceptions do...and whose job it is to do chores has nothing to do with gender in my opinion...first of all.. I have no children, and never will...secondly...if both people are working full time...chores are shared..or, actually, I eat out a lot...

I'm not talking about traditional gender roles...I am talking about the fact that emotionally , physically, and in some ways mentally... I amvery different than men...and I have no desire to change that, and don't think I should have to..it is who I am.
 Lynsteph74
Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 829
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:32:23 PM
I was always taught that the one who ASKS, PAYS...but I was also taught to never go on a date unless I ahd the cash to pay for my half,and that it was rude not to offer to apy my half. I usually insist on paying the tip, at least...unless there is a huge wage discrepancy, in which case I will reciprocate, the next date, but it is something mroe in line wiht my budget.
 real1foryou
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 831
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:54:20 AM
A lady always pays for herself. She is no less of a person because she is a lady. In fact, being a lady implies that she is resourceful, undemanding, unexpecting, and a good companion. A good companion NEVER puts on airs or puts themselves above others. If you want to be the 'lil woman' then play games about men making a first move, or paying for another adults' bills. If you want to be a partner and be respected, then be a lady.
And you men who are trained dogs, stop telling us that you were 'taught' such and such. Grow up. Get a college degree. And treat women with respect. Let the ladies be partners. When you view them as frail, you diminish the tough, strong, conservative women who do their part in relationships. If you are paying the way of women you barely know, then you are desperate. It has NOTHING to do with respecting women. You are weak and are rationalizing your weakness. Women do NOT respect fools who spout off how they are going to take care of a female even when they don't know her. These ladies aren't dumb. Good luck to all. Life is about chivalry amongst the worthy, NOT about being a ceremonious fool. There are a lot of things your parents told you that do not apply across the board. Ask them. They grew up and learned also. So you should too. I remember my dad teaching us to wear a suit to church. So as an adult I still do. But I learned that for the last 20 yrs of dad's life that he didn't wear a suit to church or even own a suit. He said.. times change. Never would have guessed that from how he drilled into our heads that you ALWAYS wear a suit and tie to church. Same thing here. Grow up. If you are a gal, get over what they told you as a teenager. If you are a male. Be a man which means to know HOW to apply chivalry in a way that is recognized as being a solid male respected by men AND women.
 real1foryou
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 833
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 3:09:05 PM
The American Idol and Guitar Hero crowd always confuses good advice as a tirade. Yes, education in a profession will help you learn to think. Please write to your congressmen if you don't agree so they won't provide advanced education to the population from my taxes. Thanks.) I do wish you well and to be on a useful path one day that will advance beyond the 'As long as it works for you' defeatism. I am a gentle and generous spirit but do know that a Drill Sergeants yell is not a tirade but the appropriate tool to clear out the misguided and negligent teaching of the recruits youth. Boy thoughts are replaced with manly action with confidence. Even the corporate world today expects people to challenge what they have been taught to see if it really holds up under multiple factors. Living childhood cliches all throughout your adulthood is the cause of so much stress. It's like a lifelong anxiousness over the arrival of Santa Claus. Good luck and let's hope this world isn't dependent on 'As long as it works for you.' The answer to the OP is still that spending time together doesn't have any monetary obligation to it regardless of who generated the thought about spending that time together. Expect nothing, appreciate everything, live easy, love freely...when you die, there are no strings attached.
 real1foryou
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 834
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 3:25:20 PM
I doubt that anyone calling women gold diggers means it in the simplistic way of accepting an offered meal. Actually, most people I know (women more than men) would profusely refuse to accept such an offered meal.
I'm sure you know by now that the gold digger accusers are talking about the attitude, the demanding posturing, the entitlement mentality that goes with the term gold diggers.
Sort of like the back and forth with the guy who says I PAY! He might be as simple and naive as that but I doubt it. Otherwise he'd be running up and down the street giving money to strangers because he loves doing that. I can give him a way to send me money by paypal if that was as simple as his thought processes are. BUT HE IS NOT THAT SIMPLE.... I'd rather believe that there are charming and giving ladies that he knows very well that factor in to his 'respect' (otherwise he is using the wrong word for his feeling toward them.) He is probably NOT a fool and there are many cues to him that the gal is not a gold digger or a dead beat or a panhandler. He just didn't put it in his post.
Most guys, when dealing with good ladies are caring and fair. We do know a great many females who aren't endearing in attitude and genuineness and so we just don't spend time with them. The guy who posted that I PAY! just doesn't let the bad apples get that far. Let's think the best of him. I am VERY generous to crippled children and elderly causes and generous to family and friends, I'm just not into the gold diggers cause. Just not into that at all.
Much success to the rest of you,
Judge
 Invictus01
Joined: 2/20/2008
Msg: 835
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 4:44:26 PM
veryreal1,

Thanks for all your wisdom. What would we all do without your college educated highness? It was a text book example of insulting everybody who doesn't share your point of view. Did they teach you this in college? Or is it a natural skill? I am really impressed, one way or another.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 839
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 6:42:24 PM
Once again, thank you from coming down from your mountain to set all of us straight!
Your ability to insult others is remarkable! Money well spent! Tax dollars well spent!


Seems like tit for tat to me. I didn't hear a whole lot of desire to understand or support me in making my case from either of you guys. Live by ridicule, die by ridicule?

It is _so_ easy to play hero when one knows that doing so will surely please the ladies. And that works just great until you find a place where you and the ladies disagree. That's what separates the girls from the women. A woman will respect you even when you disagree with her or challenge her views. That could well be said for the men vs. boys as well I suppose.

Janet, The way to stop participating in the bitterness is not to shun the men who express it, but to acknowledge that, to them, the suffering that caused such bitterness was very real--even if you have no frame of reference for understanding it. It is amazing how much things can shift when one shows a little acceptance to a person who's feeling alienated.

This has been quite an amazing thread!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 845
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 10:03:26 PM


Good thing I wasn't drinking anything just then! OMG!!!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 848
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/7/2008 11:29:55 PM
Hilarious! The first time in this entire thread that I've had a good laugh and what comes next, 10 screenfuls of all-caps yelling and a call to all the "gals" to join in the slam-fest.

OMG this is rich!

Beatles, I'm sure you're a nice guy in person, and I have no doubt the ladies love you. You obviously haven't had the problems with women that I have, and I am thankful for that for your sake. So please enjoy, thank your lucky stars, and be at peace.

You win the argument. You're obviously a much better man than I am, and I am certain that 90% of the women reading this thread will agree that you are. For that you can be proud I'm sure. So enjoy your sense of vindication!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 850
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/8/2008 8:21:57 AM

Go ahead and mock me now, Sparky.


Beatles,

I judge the quality of advice by the quality of compassion I see in how people address others who are struggling or annoying. I was paying attention to you when you chose to take a mocking tone with me while I was bleeding all over this thread and trying to make a point against severe resistance. You lost all credibility with me then when you chose to patronize me at that time, and your current tirades are really falling on deaf ears. I scan them just enough to ascertain their tone, and when you choose to stop patronizing me then we might have a chance to talk. But until then I suspect you're the only one reading them. You've had all the fun at my expense that you're going to get, and if you want to feel superior in future, you'll have to look elsewhere for that type of satisfaction.

However, if you think I was merely being patronizing to you just now, you are mistaken. You have obviously done better in ways than I have, and I really am happy for you that you feel a greater sense of freedom and ease than I do. Good for you! You came out of all the turmoil of the gender wars relatively unscathed compared to me, and I am happy for you about that. Whether it's because you had the good sense to avoid them or the wisdom to see things more clearly than I did at the time, only you can say.

You also came out of this discussion looking good and smelling like a rose, whereas my incessant voicing of an unpopular opinion has been an almost complete waste of time that only damaged my reputation. The fact that it was something I felt needed saying was perhaps my own folly. But it's been said, some people have heard it, and that is all I need. I don't need for people to agree with me or to submit to my version of reality. With the bitterness that I have experienced, why would I want that? But having been heard to the extent that I have, I'm done. And if I've chosen to be a good loser in this debate I should think that you might have the grace to act like a good winner.

You don't have to like me or my views, but as a fellow human being, both I and my eccentric viewpoint are worthy of that much respect.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 852
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/8/2008 10:18:52 AM
SW,

I think we're all aware of how it is. The debate at this point is whether or not it is as it should be. Advice to just get with the program merely begs that question, though getting with the program certainly would be more convenient!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 855
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/8/2008 12:11:43 PM
In other words, my message hasn't changed: grow up, find your balls again and do something about your wussiness.


Exactly. And that's why I'm afraid I must reiterate that you have no idea what you are talking about.

So, for the sake of peace, let us simply agree to disagree on this subject and move on. I've had a chance to be heard. So have you. That's as good as it's going to get. Enough already.

"Rock, paper, scissors. Loser buys." That one post made this whole ordeal worthwhile! Gotta love it!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 862
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/8/2008 6:59:47 PM
It's real simple: either you can behave yourself like a proper suitor or you can't. If you can't, then remove yourself from the marketplace until you are no longer a psychological burden to those unsuspecting women who don't deserve to have the dubious honor of helping you shoulder your unresolved issues.


If I had said something like this to you in a public forum, wouldn't you consider it patronizing in the extreme?

No mystery there. It's not that I'm terminally unique, it's that your mind appears to be closed.

Even if your logic is inescapable, you render it irrelevant by relating to me as though I were inferior to you. You simply cannot expect anyone to listen when you do that, which is why I am again saying to you that when it comes to me, my experience, and what I should do about it, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

If you did, you would not be pontificating at me. You would be trying to understand it from my point of view and then relating your viewpoint to me as a fellow man who actually cares. If you were having trouble understanding it and were concerned for my well-being as a fellow man, your tone would be altogether different. But rather, you appear to be getting so much mileage from the role of defender of the weaker sex that you can no longer see someone like me, faulty though I might be, as human. And since it is obvious to me that I am human, faults and all, you give me good reason to doubt your judgment on this other matter of who should pay and why.

When you're ready to relate to me as a human being and a man, I'll be ready to talk some more with you about this. Until then, I simply leave you to your obviously winning arguments! I concede the debate. I've already made myself look like an ass, and if you keep coming after me it's going to make you look like one too. So please do us both a favor and let it go. You win! Enjoy! Peace! I'm out!
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 863
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/8/2008 7:35:40 PM

I've been on these forums a very long time & I find that every time a "Who pays" topic comes out at least halve the women, if not more, simply conflict with the data you state in your "Book". Yes the women & men for that matter, in these forums have spoken quite well in that regard. I usually find the same few people jumping up and down that a man pays ect, when it seems the majority are more open minded with going dutch, who asks pays, taking turns paying.


Here's the thing, cooldude...the forums aren't very representative of real life...at least not my real life...I have never, in one instance, had any of these issues come up in my entire life , in the real world...for that matter, every date I have had from online dating, there was none of this arguing about who's paying for what... I didn't even know this was an issue till I got on the forums ( and most of the other issues on here too)...I think either the kind of people who like to post, or the kinds of people drawn to argue about gender differences are just drawn here in bigger numbers...and certainly some angry and bitter people too...I try to avoid those in either venue...

As vulf has said...in my life..who ever invites pays...it has always worked, and I'm sure it will continue to work in my world...so, anything I say here is just for the fun of debate...since the kind of guys I attract or are attracted to, follow the same patterns...I don't really have to worry about it...

And not once , in my entire life, has anybody accused me of taking advantage of anyone else...

If anything...I am the antitheses of that statement...
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 880
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:39:53 AM

Dinner Date - Who Pays?

It seems to me that was the original question.
Let me speak to that with a relatively short answer for those of us with ADD...

The most reliable course of action is the male asks the female out on a date and the male pays. It's a nice touch, a courteous gesture, a nod to "equality" if the lady offers to get the tip, and such a gesture should not be seen as proof that the lady is a militant feminist.Actually a "militant feminist" would be the one most apt to insist on separate checks.
Now if the male has decided he doesn't care to continue seeing this female, separate checks will generally ensure that won't be happening,unless she is in fact a very dedicated feminist,or very needy/desperate.( Dedication to a cause is always admirable,unless that cause pisses you off to no end...and I get the distinct impression that dedicated feminism does EXACTLY that to a lot of males. Desperation/neediness is just sad.)

IF the dating continues/becomes courtship then a woman worth knowing will try to make sure that a suitor she values is not being unduly burdened financially,and that his efforts are appreciated. Sex is an event of mutual desire, NOT a "reward", or an "expression of appreciation. Men who encourage the women they date to use sex as a medium of exchange DESERVE to find themselves in relationships where the woman uses sex as a tool/weapon.

So, guys, expect to pay for those first few dates. If doing that a lot is going to strain your budget, then you must screen/filter intensely when using "personal ads" as a means of meeting women,and keep those first meetings inexpensive. Or, stick to the "old school" ways of meeting women, so chemistry/physical attraction gets established BEFORE you start dating.
And ladies, never go on a date without money or a credit card,just in case,for whatever reason, you need to pay for the date or at least your share. That's called being a responsible adult who is capable of looking after themselves, a trait applicable to BOTH genders.
Do not ABUSE a man's generosity. If you find it necessary to date in order to bring food and entertainment into your life, then you need to to some serious re evaluation of not only your dating goals, but your life ones as well.
Cindy O
 Remagine
Joined: 5/17/2006
Msg: 882
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/10/2008 2:03:10 PM
Some of you guys are frikken cheap LOL. Hi, the Man pays for dinner. The way I see it is if they make it thru my super-secret screening process then they deserve a free meal. The rest, the POF professionals and ones with old and/or pixelated pics get Starbucks.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 885
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History
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/10/2008 6:34:35 PM
Thank you Bob...at least some men still like women ...lol...
 GoneSailinBabe
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 890
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/11/2008 3:02:56 PM
You pay.
You asked.

If she offers, suggest she buy the ice cream. And head for a shop where you can both snag a cone and talk.

Where you work and how much she makes is irrelevent and THAT comment is rude. Means you're thinking of the date already on monetary terms and comparing what you have to what she has. That's wrong thinking, dude.

It ain't about money!
 GoneSailinBabe
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 892
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/11/2008 3:22:39 PM
Dude! The ORIGINIAL date for this entire thread was last YEAR.
More than likely the damn poster has already had the date, had the girl, had a baby, and a divorce and is BACK on POF looking for suspect number 2 for his next baby. Move on.


Just say "NO!" to recycling threads and topics!
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 893
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/11/2008 4:06:45 PM

So.....if I often ask for separate cheques, what does that make me if I'm not a feminist?

The exact words I used were "most apt to". Asking for separate checks doesn't automatically make you a feminist but it does make you a suspect lol.

I GET the concept of establishing that one is not a gold digger...but I for one do not care to enter into an ongoing involvement with a man who is that damaged and fearful.

The other situation outside of hyperindependence or militant feminism is the woman who had had it up to HERE with men who think her ass is for sale, and that the price is dinner. I guess I could understand that, but I would wonder why she seemed to keep having that same experience.
Cindy O
 lil red corvette
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 895
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/11/2008 4:40:27 PM
Not been on many date eh ?
If the lady offers to contribute .. ask if she is sure.. if she confirms let her share.

Hope you are ready for the more complicated choices to come ..... :)
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