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 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 620
Dinner Date - Who Pays?Page 5 of 38    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38)

but rather men finally ACCEPTING equality for what it is.


But there again, the whole equality thing was about equal rights in the classroom, the workplace, the bank, the voting booth and the courtroom( the right to justice when physically abused)
It wasn't meant to overthrow social customs and the family structure...if you want to take equality clear out to the end of the equation, men would have to carry and give birth to 50% of the children.

Frankly, men who seem bent on beating women over the head with the "equality" club,come across as feeling threatened by it, IMO.

What I'm seeing here is mostly " the inviter is the host and therefore pays the tab"with a fair amount of "it's a social custom for the man to pay at first and for cooperation/reciprocation to be developed in a timely manner". I saw women who said they are OK with "going Dutch", I think mostly because then they can refuse further dates without feeling guilty, or because they've had one too many run ins with men who thought buying dinner entitled them to nooky.
Bottom line? If it comes down to a choice between a guy who gladly and graciously picks up the tab and the one who waffles about it, or insists on Dutch, guess who's gonna win 9 out of 10 times?
Cindy O
 sydneyleigh
Joined: 3/21/2008
Msg: 623
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History
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/25/2008 3:32:15 PM

If a friend, co-worker, relative etc asked me to go out and have a few beers, I would not expect him or her to pay for me because they asked me.


I never EXPECT anyone to pay my way if they ask me to do something, but I expect, as the host, when I ask, that I WILL pick up the tab for the event.

A group of friends going out is one thing... and those events are worded differently, so as to avoid confusion.

But if someone says "The Jimmy Buffett concert is September 1, you wanna go with me?" I do assume that SOMEONE is paying for the ticket, not me.
"are you going?" means did I get my ticket yet.

Its the wording of the invitation. What happened to manners? Vulf? anyone?

sydneyleigh
 Dancing Gem
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 631
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 1:41:37 AM
If you aare 16 to 18, ok go dutch
If you asked her, and you are over 30, and you are "courting" her, dont think of going dutch
I mean dont THINK about it
If I had a super crush on a guy, and he knew it was my birthday and didnt take me out for my birthday, or did not pick up the tab on any of the dates
I would say he is no gentleman.
I would use not to see him again if he were a cheep skate.
And HE suggested the romantic place to boot.

Anwer
You pay, you insist You be a GENTLEMAN

I even put in my profile
:"I dont do dutch dating"
 Internetdatingpariah
Joined: 10/17/2004
Msg: 636
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 7:46:54 AM
^^Once you've allowed all the women to die, what are YOU gonna do? I'm guessing beat your meat and die

heehee


HOWEVER, this is NOT about dying on a battlefield. It is about BUYING dinner

Geeez "men" get a f*king grip here ok?
You're coming off as a bunch of whiney little babies.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 637
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 7:47:42 AM
Oh my, this does get silly. Other than in my twenties when I was figuring out all of this stuff for me... I have not had one single problem with who pays. Usually we've discussed our attitudes before going out... we know how each feel and respect it. That's what this OP needs to do... talk about this stuff as part of getting to know each other.

Now, were my SO to take me out for my birthday and expect me to split the check, I'd be shocked. And I certainly wouldn't expect him to reach for his wallet on his birthday.
 celts123
Joined: 5/15/2008
Msg: 642
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 9:01:00 AM
I agree that unless otherwise discussed beforehand, the one who asks should expect to pay.


If a man invites me to dinner i asumme hes going to pay..... but ill be happy to then cook something for him in return :)


Women shoud never expect or assume that a man will pay just because he asked, he's a man or any other reason unless he specifically mentioned that he woud pay the bill. As stated before, a few women have asked out and I never expected them to pay the entire bill. If I couldn't afford it, I would either turn down the offer or suggest going someplace else.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 644
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 10:48:55 AM
I always offer to pay half, but I have to say it's a bit of a litmus test... call me old fashioned but I like a fella to pay for the first date...


TS, if it's a litmus test for you, I feel it would be more polite (and honest) if you simply said thank you and accepted the gift. When a woman does that, I look for a genuinely gracious and appreciative demeanor. That's all I need to see to know if I'm dealing with a gold-digger or a woman of substance who feels as you do.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 646
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 4:02:49 PM

The book of masculinity says

Modern women demand equality yet complain when men give it to them

Well, I don't. But I'd like to hear specifics...I don't hear too many women complaining about being entitled to get the same wage for the same work,about their daughters getting the same opportunities to participate in organized high school athletics, about being able to obtain credit in her own right, to have prospective employers barred from asking questions about marital status and child care arrangements, to bring suit against a superior who terminates her employment because she rejected his sexual advances.


Modern women want chivalry when money goes out from their life eg: dating etc
Modern women hope to hell that this gets sorted out...for every guy that wants to split the check, there is a man who is offended,(sometimes deeply)
by a woman's offer to share the expense of a date.

men will do this as soon as women are 50 % of the draft for military service and 50 % of the deaths on the battlefields
When the Equal Rights Amendment was being discussed, I ,for one, assumed that being drafted to serve their country would be part of the deal and I would have been fine with that. I will give you that, an obligation to serve our country SHOULD HAVE been part of the equality.

As gender equality becomes woven in to the way we raise our children, I would certainly HOPE that our daughters are taught and encouraged to FIGHT BACKand defend themselves when they are threatened or abused,including the use of weapons/deadly force. I mean, I hope I'm not making an erroneous assumption,that in the event that our country were invaded, women would be given the same weapons as the men? Or would we be expected to fight off an enemy force with rolling pins, cast iron skillets, the kids' Louisville Slugger, and pepper spray??

Let me just make this comment...in reading this thread, it seems like the men who believe that either the inviter/host pays, or those who say that it should be the man doing the inviting AND the paying,at least in the initial stages, seem to be more relaxed, confident,secure , pleasant; and NOT harboring some unresolved grudge against women. Just my impression.
Cindy O
 justme1124
Joined: 4/5/2007
Msg: 647
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History
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/26/2008 4:26:04 PM
don't be a cheap ass,pay for the night out,and all the nights out for the next 5 years,thats if your man enough.you gotta keep something in mind,shes gonna want to see if you can afford her AND a baby,and you'll fail her test miserably by accepting a handout from her.she might go out with you again but she'll equate you to a broke ass.
 sydneyleigh
Joined: 3/21/2008
Msg: 648
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 12:23:29 AM

As for your your idea of giving birth to 50 % of the children, men will do this as soon as women are 50 % of the draft for military service and 50 % of the deaths on the battlefields BUT WE ALL KNOW NEITHER OF THESE WILL EVER HAPPEN


Start another thread on this one - I'd LOVE to debate it.
The reasons for inequality in the service are not the fault of the women who volunteer.

Come play


sydneyleigh
United States Marine Corps
Gulf War Veteran
 baileybiff62
Joined: 6/5/2007
Msg: 649
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 1:09:39 AM
Sounds like this one knows the way around the dating "game", I say game, but its seriouse to some of us. Ime not happy with the having to pay for everything, but ive found in the past that the ladies dont like to have everything paid for for them and like the feeling of taking control of things and paying for something themselves, just accept when they offer sometimes.
 celts123
Joined: 5/15/2008
Msg: 650
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 8:41:18 AM

And by the way, women DO spend money to go out with you, but you just can't see where that money goes. If she really likes you then she may do the works -- especially for a first date, when she still thinks you're a great guy, not a free-lance pimp. Bear in mind that a manicure costs at least $30 and up, a pedicure $40 and up, a hair-do $30 to $80, depending on what she's having done. She might want a perfect ensemble and buy a nice pair of shoes or piece of clothing for up to $50 just to make it just right for you. And if she has a child she'll have to pay a baby sitter $50 at $10 an hour just to sit in a restaurant and hang out with YOU. And then there's all that endless time some women will spend to make themselves up to look real nice for their man.


I highly doubt that many women would spend a lot of money on these things just for a first date. Maybe she would for a special occassion. BTW some men might also have to pay for a babysitter as well.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 651
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 9:57:14 AM

And it's not so much that it debases women by objectifying them as much as it reveals that you have NOT ONE SINCERE BONE in your collective bodies. You have no desire to bring a woman into your life or make a friend of her as you would a male friend you've met at work or elsewhere.


Name me one time that you, personally, have ever paid for another man's meal the first time you've gone out with him. When people want to make friends with each other, they both show up as equals.


You don't want her friendship, you don't care what she thinks or has to say.


You have no idea what you are talking about.


You don't really want to have anymore to do with a woman than simply use her as a kitchen appliance and then drop her back in the cabinet when you're done with her for the day.


The same could be said for a woman who feel entitled to be compensated for her company.


Take a chance you stinking cowards. If it doesn't pan out then maybe you learned something about yourself in terms of what you want in a woman. Consider the new knowledge and possible growth it offers as the real repayment of your risk.


You know what? I think it take more courage to buck the old-school convention and hold out for women who want to be friends with me.


Certainly, no one likes a woman who manipulates men or who takes wining and dining for granted.


No, but you seem perfectly happy to rise to the defense of a system that encourages them to do so with impunity. Why?


And it only cultivates bitterness in women, who eventually start defining their own relationships based on what they WON'T do for a man, such as wear make up, cook or care for him in any way. All you do is make life more miserable for men who are NOT jerks and deserve a fair shake.


Well, actually, that all started with the women themselves. They weren't going to take it any more. And they were well within their rights to make those choices. Men who are not jerks and deserve a fair shake do not need to continue putting out for what amounts to no real respect in return.


You want to cut your losses? Just become a better judge of character, that's all.


Well, something I can agree with. But tell me, just exactly how do you do that when your hormones are raging?


But either you take risks or you stay home with all your money in your pockets. No guts, no glory. There's just no guarantees, no fail-safe devices for anyone. So wise up, look at the big picture and stop prattling about kid stuff.


Putting it nicely. This is a false dichotomy. Putting it frankly, this is bullshit.


All you wussy little whiners have been griping about is how to get the most sex for the least amount of money. The fact that you expect sex in return for dinner demonstrates that a woman is a tool, not a human being. You couldn't possibly have any respect for any of these women you solicit.


The men who expect sex for dinner are fools. If that's who you're talking to then you might have a point.


In a real relationship there is a balance that takes place, but it takes place over a course of time, not item-by-item.


Another point well taken. And, it applies to those who feel entitled to be paid for by virtue of their plumbing just as much as it does to those who feel entitled to be catered to by virtue of having paid.

The keyword here is "entitlement." It's an unbecoming attitude regardless of who displays it.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 657
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 1:33:45 PM

In a real relationship there is a balance that takes place, but it takes place over a course of time, not item-by-item.



So he does everything while you sit on your lazy ass doing nothing and maybe cook him dinner 4 months down the line?


JD, look again...the original statement, and the subsequent quotation of same, were made by MEN.

Ever read Miss Manner's take on this? Dates are supposed to be alternated starting after the 1st.
But what constitutes the "first date"? Is it the first face to face meeting? If a guy buys me a drink in a bar, is that considered a "first date"?

The general concensus here is seems to be "inviter pays", with a fair amount of men speaking up to say "the man pays", with the suggestion that if it becomes an ongoing thing, the lady should seek to share/reciprocate the expense of food/entertainment( meaning things like movie or event admissions.) and there is nothing wrong with a woman treating a guy she's interested in if he's having a temporary financial setback and he's OK with that( a lot of men I've known won't seek dating and relationships if they are having financial issues,and would NOT dream of Dutch or having the lady pay. I'm just sayin'...)
I'd be curious as to how many 2nd dates you experience, or do you save your anger and bitterness for online forums?
Cindy O
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 658
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 2:05:03 PM

I'd be curious as to how many 2nd dates you experience, or do you save your anger and bitterness for online forums?
Cindy O


Generally speaking, second and subsequent dates are not a problem for me, regardless of who pays. It's getting past all those defenses and entitlements to get a first date that takes work.

Forums are a great way to work out these frustrations and get some perspective on them! This thread, in particular, has been very enlightening!

Though I must say I still don't understand the appeal of "chivalry," given all the demeaning crap that went with it. Seems to me that it was to consolation prize for a life of limited options.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 659
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 2:36:01 PM
Ace
My question about 2nd dates was directed to john duke.

For the most part, I'd be OK with Dutch or turn/turnabout, but with my age group and locality, there's a real risk of offending men with a more old school position that those early dates require that the man pays. Of course I am careful not to abuse that, and if a dating situation becomes ongoing I'm more than willing to integrate entertainment and/or food that comes out of my resources. I have very little patience with people of either gender who seem bent on USING people, be it in the context of dating, a relationship, friendship or even family situations. I do not understand why so many men seem to have this bitter belief that women MUST date in order to eat or enjoy an outing to a movie or whatever. We aren't all that lame.
Cindy O
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 662
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History
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:02:36 PM
^^ Might as well copy that excellent post Janet4ever and just paste it into each new page of this and all of the other Who Pays? threads.

hmm... might get tedious, perhaps we could all take a turn.

OT: I find the practice of "testing" someone abhorrent; why not just have a conversation about it?
 celts123
Joined: 5/15/2008
Msg: 664
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:12:35 PM

If she offers to pay half the bill, she's testing you . If you let her = you fail and she will remind you of it every time you have a fight until you are either dead or out of the relationship.



I find the practice of "testing" someone abhorrent; why not just have a conversation about it?


Some women in other threads about this topic even admitted to offering to pay as a "test of a man's character". If he accepts, then the woman will not see him again. If a woman did that to me, then good riddance.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 666
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:48:38 PM

For the most part, I'd be OK with Dutch or turn/turnabout, but with my age group and locality, there's a real risk of offending men with a more old school position that those early dates require that the man pays.


Yep. It's abiguous all around. Since that's so, perhaps we can all just lighten up, make it fun, and get off our high horses.

Let me just say this: you can't really get a sense of someone's generosity by "testing" it. You can't get a good sense of someone's graciousness by "pushing" it. In both cases it's not so much about _what_ a person chooses to do as it is about _how_ they go about doing it.

If a woman offers to pay, pay half, or pay the tip, I can always ask her why. If she freezes up, then I've got a pretty good clue that it's either a test or I've already failed. No problem. That's the real clue as to whether or not another date will be in the offing. If it was fun up to that point, I might well pay up and write it off. But if it was The Spanish Inquisition over tea, I might just accept her offer and let myself be bought off.
 miraclgal
Joined: 6/22/2007
Msg: 668
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:25:28 PM
OP, If it is such a BIG DEAL to pay when you invite someone you are interested in out to dinner, then stop with the invitations. Why even mention a kiss on the cheek from your prior dates????????UNLESS you are a loser...........
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 669
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Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:52:14 PM

OT: I find the practice of "testing" someone abhorrent; why not just have a conversation about it?


I am with you Margo...when I first got back into dating after a long absence...I didn't know things had changed from how they used to be..so, I made a few missteps..

I don't know what is so hard about this...If I want to go out with a guy, I find out one way or another, what he expects..because I hate embarrassment and awkwardness...if our ideas are too far apart to be a good idea...then I don't go out with him...

I think some women test because they just aren't used to being direct, or don't know how. Or assumptions are made. I know that I have never consciously tested anyone...but, I may have unconsciously...I know that if I offer to pay my half..it is a genuine offer..however, I would be lying it I said that it doesn't impress me when they don't make a big deal out of it one way or the other. One can't help but feel that someone doesn't think you are worth it, if they get belligerent or rude about it. And if one (of either gender) can't give without expectations or graciousness...I wouldn't get along with them anyway. As I have said before...this "return on investment" idea, personally, really turns me off...

As janet4ever says...there are plenty of people on all sides of the issue..that they can find each other...no one on any side is likely to change their mind because of posts on a thread...I know that how I feel about something, is how I feel..at my age..I have worked out all the ambiguities, and know what works for me.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 672
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 9:04:51 PM
I guess it's a matter of either hashing it out beforehand, or being very socially adept at reading an ongoing situation.
But a date should not be a test,a pushing match, or an Inquistion of ANY nationality.
It's not the question itself that I find somewhat disturbing...it's how it brings out a lot of resentful, bitter,even angry responses from a fair amount of men, and a very rigid "entitlement" attitude from a fair amount of women. Is it just because this is a forum on a dating website, or is there really THAT MUCH screwed up attititude out there?
Cindy O
 Invictus01
Joined: 2/20/2008
Msg: 674
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:03:24 PM
Oh my gawd, I just came back from the first date and I paid for everything!!! I feel so dirty and used!!! And I didn't have sex too!!! What am I gonna do now?!?

[/end of sarcasm]

Seriously though, it was a fun night. Who cares about the money.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 677
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:29:02 PM

As far as I'm concerned, it's a moot point because I wouldn't date off of POF. Way too many damaged individuals on here worrying about getting used. She's using me for my money; he's using me for sex.

I've got news for you, there are damaged individuals out there who's closest association with the internet/computers was watching somebody use one at a public library.
At the end of the day, as women are wage earners now, and it's no longer necessary for a "suitor" to prove his ability, to the lady and her family, that he can "provide" for her, the "protocol" is going to get blurred.
For the time being, I would suggest that a man's most prudent and noncontroversial course of action would be to plan on paying for any "new" date,and for the first few dates with someone where an interest seems to be developing. If the lady offers to go Dutch or in some way share the cost, it's all good. If she's a traditionalist, you won't risk offending her. However, if you continue to see her and she makes no attempt to balance out the dating cost burden fairly soon, you might want to rethink dating her. If she seems to think that sexual favors are fair exchange, and all that's required to balance the ledger,and you go along with that, you are setting a dangerous precedent in this relationship...don't come cryin' back here next year that your gf uses sex as a tool and or weapon. You let that pattern set itself.
Cindy O
 Invictus01
Joined: 2/20/2008
Msg: 678
Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:30:07 PM


Fedex her a potato bouquet!


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... You are a genius!!!
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