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 Galahad54
Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 76
FREE Federalized Health CarePage 4 of 31    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31)

We should have UHC for many many reasons...


I distrust any such statement that includes the word *should*. I find deception, that is lies, hidden in the statement.

There are a great many things I would *like* to have. In order to get them, I work hard. When I was divorce, I was required to provide health insurance for my kids. It cost $450 per month, with my employer paying most of it. When my income dropped from $4,500/month to $450/month, that payment did not decrease, and my employer paid none of it. I could say someone else *should* pay it, but it was *my* responsibility.

My kids are happy and healthy adults. I am still poor, but I never expected someone else to come rescue me. I would like *less* government spending in medical care, because it only raises the prices doctors and hospitals charge. Government spending for university raises tuition and salaries of professors. Government spending for ethanol subsidies raises the prices for all or almost all food. I want *less* government than I pay for, and I pay very little.

end rant
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 77
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/30/2007 7:00:45 PM
"I have experienced more frustrations with govt. beaurocracy than my insurance company"

Thats because you dont work behind the scenes as a healthcare provider...You dont see what waste, a robbing of your money and beaurocracy really happens there because you dont work in the trenches on a day to day basis ..Just because somethings out of sight, doesnt mean it doesnt exist...You have far more dealings with govt. offices as a citizen than you would with private managed care so of course you see the waste there while you dont see the corruption and waste with managed care. Like most Americans, you probably go home after your appointment with your healthcare provider is finished without a second thought on what happens with your insurance and how your privacy and quality of care is compromised after you leave
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 78
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/30/2007 8:57:43 PM
Instead of "Should", whatever happened to "CHOICE"???? Why is the government dictating what we the people must have??? I thought America was founded on freedoms??? Is this a dictatorship or a Democracy????

Yes I know America is a Representative Republic and not a true democracy, but every year it seems to be turning into a Totaltarian Regime.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 79
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/30/2007 9:29:50 PM
I could not have said it better, INTIMACY ONLY. Well done!!!!!
 AZVern
Joined: 12/10/2007
Msg: 80
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/30/2007 10:00:32 PM

I could not have said it better, INTIMACY ONLY
I think you missed the point of that post; it was not in support of a true free market 0r opposition to uhc as much as it was pointing out that uhc would be the inevitable result of a true free market because of all the headaches a treu free market would cause.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 81
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/31/2007 7:37:37 AM
That is correct, most people do not realize that "FREE" healthcare is not free, and most services would be restricted or rationed. Just look at the quality of healthcare in any socialized nation. Is anyone flocking to CUBA for healthcare????
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 82
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/31/2007 8:56:48 AM
If the US was a TRUE democracy we would HAVE universal health care because most people want it. Because the US is a dictatorship of the rich (plutocracy) we do not enjoy the benefits of more democratic nations such as Canada and the European Union. It is sad to see this. I said, "should" because the US should be a true democracy not rule by the rich.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 83
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/31/2007 7:08:41 PM
Good post, Intimacy Only. Well said. <img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_201.gif border=0>

Too much welfare for corporations--that's another good reason to get rid of private health insurance. We already have "welfare" for these money-grubbing corporations that do nothing to help people who truly need healthcare. Profit should NOT be part of the business of providing for health care (insurance). Doctors can still profit, well, actually profit MORE under UHC because the doctor can bill for more time with patients because he doesn't have to waste time fighting it out with myriad private insurance companies. Doctors should be able to focus on being doctors not worrying about duking it out with for profit insurance companies. The DOCTORS should be the ones profiting, not the insurance companies who make doctors' lives miserable by denying patients care.
 Robodeer7
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 84
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/31/2007 7:31:06 PM
The idea of government run health care terrifies me! The very idea that the same louts who can't be fired at the driver's license bureau (with its lack of concern and willingness to put illegal aliens ahead of actual citizens )-might end up controlling my access to health care, shoddy as it is, is enough to put a cold sweat on my neck. Civil libertarians and others who cry about spying on terrorists living abroad apparently have no worries about the government knowing all about your health issues in their own backyard when it should be among the most private of all! Think of something....ANYTHING that the government does particularly well? Even the military is filled with lethal accidents during peacetime, and it is the most competent part of the entire government. SNAFU anyone? Do you really want to be in line for a life saving procedure and have some official from the Office of Human Health Care tell you that it can't be done because you haven't filled in a special request form? As an ex-submarine sailor (the most competent part of the US Navy, I assure you.) I can tell you that stuff doesn't happen in the military without first traveling up and down the the chain of command, do you want that to happen to you, with your doctor paralyzed into inaction because he or she doesn't have an ok from a superior? The bloody HMOs are bad enough (thank you Ted Kennedy for replacing General Hospitals with a nightmare that gets worse and worse.)
No...government is not the answer, as usual, its the problem.
javascript:smilie('')
javascript:smilie('')Does anyone out there have information on the Health Care program Wal-Mart has been putting together? It could be that someone bright has figured out a way to make a profit caring for the poor.javascript:smilie('')
javascript:smilie('')
 AZVern
Joined: 12/10/2007
Msg: 85
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/31/2007 11:54:53 PM

Because Washington, DC is not a state, there are no capitation grants in the District of Columbia. That means these schools get no government money and students pay the full cost of their medical education (Georgetown and George Washington), or the school funds a portion (Howard).
That's interesting, because it conflicts with what Georgetown University says;
There are two primary sources of financial aid for Georgetown University graduate students. First, there are merit-based scholarship, assistantship, and fellowship awards coordinated through the candidate's department or program and the Georgetown University Graduate School of Arts and Sciences or the Office of Biomedical Graduate Education. Where funding is available, these awards are offered to graduate students based on academic achievement in particular programs of study. In addition, many graduate students receive need-based federal financial aid funds and other financing assistance from the University's Office of Student Financial Services.
http://finaid.georgetown.edu/grmenu.htm
 AZVern
Joined: 12/10/2007
Msg: 86
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 12/31/2007 11:56:49 PM

Boy, I hate playing Miss Manners
WWAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 87
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:49:09 AM
So you go to the DMV, get your driver's license renewed after hours of waiting, and then you can make an appointment to see a doctor in maybe a year. Hopefully that cancer thing is not terminal, maybe you will live to see the doctor, then get an appointment for surgery in another year. that is why people in Britian and Canada are coming to the US to treat their diseases and get necessary surgery.
 AZVern
Joined: 12/10/2007
Msg: 88
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:10:14 AM
Well, aside from the fact that the DMV is a state agency and the discussion here is about federal healthcare, I can get my license renewed at the MVD in AZ online, but if I do go to the local office, I am never there more than 20 minutes.

Ever.

I once did a title transfer, new license and registration in about 45 minutes, including the drive to/from the local office. And about 30 minutes of that was driving.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 89
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:19:05 AM

Maybe the idea isn't to elliminate "the poor"? That's socialism.

The idea is to make it so that the poor do not suffer unduly. It's to mitigate their suffering.

Which as compared to 60 years ago, they are doing much much better.
This is true.

I would also like to suggest that people look at the state of the NHS in the UK, which is a free public health service for all. It will be 60 years old on July 5, 2008. In the UK, more and more people are moving to private healthcare. The cost of prescriptions is going up and up, more and more patients in mental ill-health are being put out of in-hospital care, and into private accommodation, where many are at risk of self-harm, suicide and serious harm to others. As the population is rising, with far more immigrants, and far more older people, who are not able to pay the National Insurance Contributions that pay for the NHS, and that such people are more likely to use far more services in the NHS, the services are being pushed more and more to the limit. Last year, the government cut 30% of the budget for the NHS in the South in the middle of the financial year, and as a result, there was no money to provide training for newly qualified medical graduates in things like trauma training. Adding on the fact that more and more therapies, treatments and drugs are now possible, but that these are ever more expensive, the NHS is forced into making decisions on who gets what treatments, where someone is bound to die, if not everyone gets treated.

Basically, it appears that we need more and more money to cover the existing system, and there is less and less money going into the system. So people are looking to pay for private healthcare if they can afford it, because there is a good possibility that the British NHS will become more like the American equivalent used to be, being that everyone who can afford private healthcare pays for it, and those who cannot, take their chances with a severely underfunded healthcare system.

There are other countries with a very good public healthcare system. But whether the US system ends up on the same path as Britain or on a more productive path, depends on what policies are implemented, and how. I would suggest that people look to Britain and see if the reforms suggested by the US Government would bring the USA to a system that is similar to the current state of the NHS in the UK.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 90
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F,REE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:21:01 PM
I too have only waited ten minutes at most at the local DMV office to get my driver's license renewed. It takes longer to drive over there than it does to get the business done.
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 91
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:55:25 PM
"there are many who have the means but dont want to pay"


They may have the "means" but often that choice is made between paying utilities, morgage, and gas and diapers and their healthcare premiums...Who are you to decide that they should forego another neccessity in order to pay for their healthcare premium??....My mother calls that "robbing Peter to pay Paul"..How is that "fiscally responsible?...Im still waiting for a credible answer to that from those who think the healthcare system just needs a little tweaking to it...There are consequences for forcing people to juggle paying for neccessities....Expensive consequences and you would be the first to complain about those consequences....You cant have it both ways: people foregoing basic neccessities in order to pay a high insurance premium without any negative consequences of that....One could also say you dont want to look at those conseqeunces as well
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 92
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 10:54:23 AM
Yes, it's true. All of those programs have fallen short. Is that because they were inherently flawed? Or was it because an ideological element did everything in its power to prevent programs like those from succeeding--convinced as they were that providing such services was outside the scope of government.

Probably some of both, but when you actively work to undermine a program you cannot then claim that its failure validates your theory. You rigged the experiment!

Because the recipient of services is typically not the person paying, the "market" for health care services is totally distorted. When a market cannot function properly, there is no guarantee that a "free market" solution will perform any better than a government program. I don't think that anyone will make a strong argument that the current system is performing all that well.

Besides, what is a government if not an insurance agency? We pool our resources to provide for the common defense. Isn't that war insurance? We also do that to provide for public safety. Isn't that crime insurance? We do it to provide adjudication of our disputes. Isn't that damage insurance?

So if the people decide they want to pool resources to provide for health care via a government agency, as far as I'm concerned they have that right. Probably the best compromise would be to change health-care providers to government-regulated utilities with a fixed and reasonable return for investors. Then the providers could compete for investors and clients on the basis of quality care rather than ROI.

I don't think that the government should do what the market can do better. However, when the market fails, a governmental solution is better than chaos or the exploitation of the vulnerable--such as those who are in need of medical treatment.
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 93
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 1:43:36 PM
"an insurance company knows more than doctors"

I deal with this daily at work...Insurance companies override any decisions made by healthcare providers if they dont consider it "medically neccessary"...Yet they have no training or credentials to make those decisions but the power to do so....Power without responsibility and accountability, as no one is monitoring the activities of and the spending of insurance companies ..... Private insurance companies also waste more money and hike up insurance premiums quicker than govt. programs because they have unchecked, unlimited spending other than an private "insider" employee and lobbyist reporting "numbers" to the public.....At least govt. programs are monitored and audited regularly by outsider organizations not affiliated with the programs....Would you hire a plumber to fix your car with a blank check???....Why the American public and average citizen accepts that in the name of the "free enterprise system" for healthcare is beyond me....They dont seem too worried about it until it affects them personally....Then they crusade against it when it hurts them personally and they see their premiums skyrocket every year with no increased services....Its too late then...People need to get more educated and proactive about the private for profit healthcare system...Get the fox out of the henhouse, dont give him a blank check
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 94
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 2:00:44 PM
"A large number of healthcare workers were on vacations in August"

You act like thats a bad thing...Healthcare workers SHOULD have 6 weeks off, including August.....France is proactive and invests in their healthcare and so allows adequate time off for healthcare workers....Why you would want an exhausted. overworked ,healthcare worker treating people is beyond me...Working more hours just makes one make more mistakes...It doesnt make them work better or be more efficient...If I am forced to work more hours without adequate vacation and breaks, I burn out and I cant give the public the best care they deserve...As it is, mental health therapists dont have paid vacation unless they work for a govt. agency..We are often forced to work nites when we are exhausted in order to pay our bills....Its the public who suffers when they cant get adequate care because we are too exhausted to listen to them...You cant get blood out of a stone just because you want to save money and be a cheapskate
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 95
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 2:47:21 PM
It doesn't shock me that in countries that don't have open elections also don't have good single-payer health care. Where people have no recourse to vote out the legislators who don't perform, they get bureaucracies that don't perform.

People tend to get good utility service at reasonable cost when they are run as regulated monopolies in local areas. The competition among elected officials who could be voted out if they didn't do a good job of holding utilities accountable seemed to work. Private investment in the production of those services meant that poor performance on the part of utilities themselves could be punished by a bad bond rating or a sell-off of equity.

If we have three bad choices for providing health care to the entire population, as it appears we do, let's pick the least awful of the three by treating health care as a subscription service with lifeline rates for the poor, a fixed rate of return for investors in local hospitals, clinics, and in-home services, and a regulatory agency that monitors performance and intervenes when necessary to correct abuses.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 96
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 8:21:16 PM
We should chain AG and put her in a room forcing her to watch SiCKO over and over, including the 400 minutes of unpublished footage (just teasing)

Seriously, I have made an observation about the arguments of the right wing conservatives in our nation==the more conservative they are, the more irrational and illogical they become.

None of the arguments against UHC impress me at all, and have only served to strengthen my position against a system that allows people to die from brain tumors that could have been treated.
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 97
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:35:29 PM
UHC is not the solution. Can you imagine the government running all healthcare? Did you all not learn from the FEMA problems after Katrina? How about Gov Blocko's managing of the crisis? HHow about Mayor Nagan's fine evacuation plan? and you want people like this to run healthcare.....LOL.....I think I will invest in the Coffin Industry, sounds like a money maker to me after UHC passes.
 AZVern
Joined: 12/10/2007
Msg: 98
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:46:39 PM

Did you all not learn from the FEMA problems after Katrina?
Uh, yeah, we learned we should prevent the president from the excessive cronyism Shrub has perpetrated. We learned there should be far greater oversight of who is placed into positions such as head of FEMA. (Drownie ring a bell with you? Not Democrat. Not Louisiana. Not smart. All Bush buddy.)
 capegardengirl
Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 99
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/3/2008 5:25:11 AM
"Can you imagine the govt. running all healthcare"

What makes you think the private system is any better?...There is incredible waste that you pay for paperpushers and overhead set up to be gatekeepers for doctors and healthcare providers and deny you care while at the same time supporting the pharmeuceutical companies and increasing the profits of giants like Cigna and Blue Cross...How is that any more fiscally responsible than govt. programs????..How does that benefit you when I, a healthcare provider is prohibited from providing adequate care to you because of a fat cat paperpusher who has no credentials or experiemce into your situation???..This is exackly the same problem people have pointed out with govt. agencies only its with an UNREGULATED system with NO checks and balances...WHY would you support that?...I really dont get that, its crazy
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 100
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 1/3/2008 7:24:50 AM

In general people tend to take jobs that will pay them better. The only way to interest a doctor in serving a rural community is provide a free medical education through the Public Health Service and then have him serve one of those communities in repayment, or find a doctor from a rural community who is invested in staying there and send him to medical school.


I must point out that this is a government subsidized program. It is also evidence of a market failure to provide a necessary service. Your earlier example of doctors who are opting out and only accepting direct payers would be fine as a market solution if we could train enough medical practitioners to allow for real competition between providers.

Medical care is a de facto monopoly, and the compromise between free market and government provided services when there are monopoly conditions is to regulate the monopoly.
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