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 bob0colo
Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 176
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FREE Federalized Health CarePage 8 of 31    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31)

but there are those diehards who will cleave to their ridiculous assertions and bite their own noses off their own faces for them, too. Its a waste of breath.


No i don't want children in foster care or prison...

It was a question for diehards... How do you deal with this persons situation or that persons situation ...

I get tired it is a waste of breath......
 IndigoPanda
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 177
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 8:29:56 PM

.................USA 47 million uninsured........

............... Millions more underinsured......

............... Half of all the Bankruptcies caused by medical bills....


I see these numbers posted all the time, yet no one ever posts the government source where they come from. Are they really true? I thought if you did not have insurance you got medicaid or medicare? Does that mean the government can not even cover the poorest of the poor? if they are failing in that, how can you expect them to run a nationwide healthcare system?? Sounds like the demise of any healthcare for ALL AMERICANS to me, is what you are advocating.

The Communists have free healthcare, look what it got them........ what was their standard of living? what was their life expectancy?

The USA has the best healthcare anywhere and the liberals and socialists want to tear it down. Well I am not standing by and watching it happen. Are you???!!
 bob0colo
Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 178
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 10:17:15 PM

The USA has the best healthcare anywhere and the liberals and socialists want to tear it down. Well I am not standing by and watching it happen. Are you???!!



I thought if you did not have insurance you got medicaid or medicare?




Is it nice to not know about loosing insurance?? ........

You must not read very much.

Your experience with health insurance is very limited....





Health Coverage & The Uninsured

Lack of health insurance coverage for 46 million Americans is one of the nation's most pressing problems.
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/index.cfm

Underinsured
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/Underinsured-in-America-Is-Health-Coverage-Adequate-Fact-Sheet.pdf

another 16 million adults were underinsured in 2003, meaning their insurance did not adequately protect them against catastrophic health care expenses, finds a study in Health Affairs
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=280812


In "Insured But Not Protected: How Many Adults Are Underinsured?" (Health Affairs Web Exclusive, June 14, 2005), The Commonwealth Fund's Cathy Schoen, Michelle M. Doty, Sara R. Collins, and Alyssa L. Holmgren find that inadequate coverage—much like no coverage at all—creates obstacles to care and other burdens. Underinsured adults are almost as likely as the uninsured to go without needed medical care and to incur medical debt. Lower-income and sicker adults are most at risk of having inadequate coverage.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=280812


A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.13 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml


The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs
National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage.2
Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage.8
Nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of the uninsured reported changing their way of life significantly in order to pay medical bills.9
In a Wall Street Journal-NBC Survey almost 50 percent of the American public say the cost of health care is their number one economic concern.10
In a USA Today/ABC News survey, 80 percent of Americans said that they were dissatisfied (60 percent were very dissatisfied) with high national health care spending.11
Rising health care costs is the top personal pocketbook concern for Democratic voters (45%) and Republicans (35%), well ahead of higher taxes or retirement security.12
One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious.
A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.13 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
One half of workers in the lowest-compensation jobs and one-half of workers in mid range-compensation jobs either had problems with medical bills in a 12-month period or were paying off accrued debt. One-quarter of workers in higher-compensated positions also reported problems with medical bills or were paying off accrued debt.14
If one member of a family is uninsured and has an accident, a hospital stay, or a costly medical treatment, the resulting medical bills can affect the economic stability of the whole family.15
A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.16
A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses.17
Retiring elderly couples will need $200,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage.18 Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.
According to a recent report, the United States has $480 billion in excess spending each year in comparison to Western European nations that have universal health insurance coverage. The costs are mainly associated with excess administrative costs and poorer quality of care.19
The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.19

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml


Bankruptcy • 2005 • 1,637,254

http://www.uscourts.gov/Press_Releases/bankruptcyfilings82405.html

 bob0colo
Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 179
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 11:17:12 PM
.
I posted links ask for......
There is a mountain of opinion and plenty of information here. This is his op.

I have gone into detail many times here. People wanting to live with third world health care should move to an impoverished country. Oh.... wait thats kinda what we are becoming.

People that justify, paying one man $1.6 billion dollars for being the CEO of United Healthcare, just don't think like I do, and never will. We do not have the Best health care in the world.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 180
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/9/2008 3:23:21 AM
Look , I don't go to doctors or hospitals regularly. I don't take medication.

I still pay for my medical insurance off my paycheck, every week. I also pay for a private medical insurance plan, one that gives me some additional benefits, every week. I seldom am able to use that either - thankfully.

That's not money that's wasted in my books.

That money goes towards helping others, until the time comes when it's needed to help me.

I can walk down the street, see someone's that sick, and know they have resources available for their care. I'm proud of that.

Were I to walk down that same street and see someone who was forgotten by my society, someone desperately in need of medical help, and someone that couldn't get it simply because of how little they have in their wallet - I'd be ashamed of the society I was a part of.

If I saw people and companies making obscene profits off the backs of the ill, I'd wish for them the hottest circle of Hell when they shuffle off this mortal coil , and meet their Maker.

I'm not saying they can't make a living, nor make a commercially necessary profit - that's called good business.

People keep trying to slam the Canadian health care model, but they forget that it also results in a population that ( unarguably) has better health than your open market system affords Americans - for less money.

Go and look at any source you want, one that statistically tracks major areas of disease and illness. Nationmaster is but one of them.

Take a look at countries with socialized medicine, vs your much taunted private one.

Now take a look at who is at the top of the list in per capita spending.


Health care funding > Total per capita (most recent) by country


#1 United States: $4,631.00 per capita <-----------------
#2 Switzerland: $3,222.00 per capita
#3 Germany: $2,748.00 per capita
#4 Iceland: $2,608.00 per capita
#5 Canada: $2,535.00 per capita
#6 Denmark: $2,420.00 per capita
#7 France: $2,349.00 per capita
#8 Norway: $2,268.00 per capita
#9 Belgium: $2,268.00 per capita
#10 Netherlands: $2,246.00 per capita
#11 Australia: $2,211.00 per capita
#12 Austria: $2,162.00 per capita
#13 Italy: $2,032.00 per capita
#14 Japan: $2,011.00 per capita
#15 Ireland: $1,953.00 per capita
#16 United Kingdom: $1,764.00 per capita
#17 Finland: $1,664.00 per capita
#18 New Zealand: $1,623.00 per capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun
_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita


And the results of all this spending ?

Number of nurses ?


#1 Finland: 14.7 per 1,000 people
#2 Ireland: 14 per 1,000 people
#3 Netherlands: 13.4 per 1,000 people
#4 Australia: 10.7 per 1,000 people
#5 Switzerland: 10.7 per 1,000 people
#6 Norway: 10.3 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada: 9.9 per 1,000 people
#8 Germany: 9.6 per 1,000 people
#9 New Zealand: 9.6 per 1,000 people
#10 Denmark: 9.5 per 1,000 people
#11 Austria: 9.2 per 1,000 people
#12 United Kingdom: 8.8 per 1,000 people
#13 Sweden: 8.8 per 1,000 people
#14 United States: 8.1 per 1,000 people <--------------------------------------
#15 Japan: 7.8 per 1,000 people
#16 France: 6.7 per 1,000 people
#17 Italy: 5.2 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_nur-health-nurses


Maternal mortality ?


#133 Sweden: 5 per 100,000
#132 Switzerland: 5 per 100,000
#131 Kuwait: 5 per 100,000
#130 Israel: 5 per 100,000
#129 Croatia: 6 per 100,000
#128 Ireland: 6 per 100,000
#127 Singapore: 6 per 100,000
#126 Finland: 6 per 100,000
#125 Norway: 6 per 100,000
#124 Spain: 6 per 100,000
#123 Netherlands: 7 per 100,000
#122 United Kingdom: 7 per 100,000
#121 Italy: 7 per 100,000
#120 Japan: 8 per 100,000
#119 Poland: 8 per 100,000
#118 Germany: 8 per 100,000
#117 Portugal: 8 per 100,000
#116 United States: 8 per 100,000 <--------


Acute care beds ?


#1 Germany: 9 per 1,000 people
#2 Czech Republic: 6.5 per 1,000 people
#3 Austria: 6.2 per 1,000 people
#4 Hungary: 6 per 1,000 people
#5 Luxembourg: 5.9 per 1,000 people
#6 Slovakia: 5.6 per 1,000 people
#7 Poland: 5 per 1,000 people
#8 Italy: 4.6 per 1,000 people
#9 France: 4 per 1,000 people
#10 Switzerland: 4 per 1,000 people
#11 United Kingdom: 3.9 per 1,000 people
#12 Australia: 3.7 per 1,000 people
#13 Denmark: 3.4 per 1,000 people
#14 Netherlands: 3.3 per 1,000 people
#15 Portugal: 3.2 per 1,000 people
#16 Canada: 3.2 per 1,000 people
#17 Norway: 3.1 per 1,000 people
#18 Ireland: 3 per 1,000 people
#19 United States: 2.9 per 1,000 people <-----------


Deaths from cancer ?


#16 United Kingdom: 253.5 deaths per 100,000 people
#15 Finland: 255.4 deaths per 100,000 people
#14 Sweden: 268.2 deaths per 100,000 people
#13 Austria: 280 deaths per 100,000 people
#12 France: 286.1 deaths per 100,000 people
#11 Norway: 289.4 deaths per 100,000 people
#10 Australia: 298.9 deaths per 100,000 people
#9 United States: 321.9 deaths per 100,000 people <--------


Remember in the good old days the way politicians used to speak of a "missile gap" ?

Maybe Americans should start speaking of a "health care gap" .
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 181
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History
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/9/2008 10:21:01 PM
Sadly, the strength of our nation is being sapped by the greedy insurance companies and right-wing dingbats equating universal health care with Communism. Too many people are ignorant, and don't realize that they could benefit from universal health care. I hope that we get a good clean sweep in November, eliminating much of the right wing crazies in Congress, and that Barack Obama becomes our next president. He is more likely to enact true health care reform than either Shrillary (health care mandates), or McCain (doing nothing).
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 182
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/22/2008 10:17:26 PM
No thanks, look at what's going on in Canada, the UK and other places with socialized medicine. In the UK people who can afford it pay for private care, and then also have to pay for the lousey government care that they don't even want.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 183
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 5:26:27 AM
Guess that's why Canadians come HERE for health care when the waiting lines get too long, and each province winds up sending women here to give birth when they can't accommodate them.

When exactly is the last time you've heard of an American mother going to CANADA to give birth because WE had no hospital space?

As I said, no thanks.
 bob0colo
Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 184
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FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 10:23:34 AM

And I'd like to see a reference to provinces sending women to the US for delivery, I find that hard to believe. I would believe that if there were some very highly specialized care that people from ALL OVER THE WORLD come to seek, not OB/GYN



This is repeated enough it has become a fact.

That is why Canada has such a low infant mortaility, and the US has such a High Infant Mortaility

With Socialized Medicine in Canada once a year all the infirmed and elderly are put on an Ice Flow...

anyone getting sick during the year has to go to Montana on a Greyhound bus.........

 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 185
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:01:25 PM
If you make that assertion, back it up with some research or numbers, please, because it is FALSE and MISLEADING.


There are lots of citations further back in this thread. BC alone sent 50 pregnant women to the US last year to give birth. The most famous were the Jepp quads, which were born in Great Falls, Montana. In addition, there are some very well-publicized lawsuits filed by patients who came to the US for treatment of cancer and other ailments -- they are suing for reimbursement and some also contest the constitutionality of the Canadian Health Act. No reason to put further cites into a thread that is already 688 messages long.

The president of the Canadian Medical Association, Brian Day, says around 60,000 to 80,000 patients per year go to foreign countries for care. You can find the numbers in a speech on his web site, or you can scroll back in this thread. It's in here somewhere.

It really doesn't matter, because single payer insurance isn't on the table in the US, not even by Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. They suggest allowing uncovered patients to buy into various existing insurance programs for Federal employees. Further, given the way the primaries have gone, and the likelihood that a good portion of Hillary Clinton's supporters will sit out the election or vote for John McCain rather than support Barack Obama, it's increasingly likely that there will be a Republican president once again -- which means no reform except possibly for some tax credits.

Edit: Since you like links so much, here's one for you:

CANADA'S U.S. BABY BOOM
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=16524

The original source already has it in archives, so you'd have to pay for it. However, it's copied for free at the URL above.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 186
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 4:58:46 PM

If you have noticed lately there has actually been a filtering of money to the rich making them much more wealthy.


How's that? The bottom half of US wage earners pay 4 percent of the taxes. Personally I think they shouldn't pay taxes at all, because it costs us more than they pay to process the tax returns.


If you spend (these figures are by no means even meant to be accurate) $100 billion on healthcare and 30 billion of that is going to the insurace companies, that is $30 bil that could have gone to health care.


The largest health care provider in the United States is Blue Cross/Blue Shield, and a large percentage of their companies are non-profit. So if you want to avoid for profit insurance companies, don't do business with them.


If you are paying $400/mo and your deductible is $2500 are your taxes going to go up $7300 a year?


It depends on how much money you make. What you do with socialized medicine is force people who make more money to subsidize the health insurance benefits of the lower 50 percent of wage earners.

The higher you make taxes on the wealthy, the less incentive they have to create wealth. This has happened to a degree in Canada since socialized medicine went into effect in the late 1960s. And yes, you can find links to the statistics in this thread.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 187
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:36:24 PM
Um . . . where did I say the government wasn't me? That's why I support candidates that propose low taxes (as long as they balance it out with low spending).

However, you still haven't explained to me how the lower 50 percent of income earners support the wealthy given they hardly pay any taxes.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 188
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:08:55 PM
We went into debt to fund the war. Even if taxes hadn't been reduced we still wouldn't have had the money to fund the war. While Iraq was not necessary, Afghanistan was. So was rebuilding lower Manhattan and the Pentagon.

Bush both reduced taxes and then spent like a druken sailor, but if we hadn't funded the war we still wouldn't have had the money to spend on health care.

We went into DEBT to fund the war.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 189
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History
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:41:44 PM
I loved ForumBloom's remark that private health insurance carriers are sharks. What an apt description. They are no better than Mafia loan sharks in the way they handle health care. Too much of the burden is put on the person who needs the care to prove that it is medically necessary. I had to wait six months while also battling the insurance company for approval for an ear operation. These people are crazy, greedy, and evil. I will be VERY happy the day I no longer need to participate in such a greed-based system. I have even decided that if I was diagnosed tomorrow with a brain tumor I would refuse any and all treatments because I would go medically bankrupt--a legacy I don't want to leave to my family. I'd rather die than find myself medically bankrupt because of our corrupt system. Now, if we had REAL health care in the US, I would not be saying this because I wouldn't have to worry about mountains of medical bills. I've quite frankly had enough of private health insurance and look forward to the day I can opt in to a government-based health care system.

It is sad that so many people are duped and fooled into thinking that universal health care is akin to "Communism". What baloney! I spent some time behind the Iron Curtain before it fell, and believe you me, there's way more to Communism than health insurance--there are denials of human rights, lack of freedom of expression, no property rights or any of the freedoms we take for granted. Universal health care exists in EVERY OTHER DEMOCRACY except the USA. So, we can put the silly notion that universal health care would result in the loss of democracy away, and move forward so that more people can live long and prosper to borrow a Star Trek phrase.

Live Long and Prosper!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 190
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:47:21 PM
Just like any other business, a government should only create new debt when it intends to invest the funds in ventures that will pay more in dividends than the
cost of the debt.

Unlike other businesses, sometimes the payoff does not come in the form of
direct cash payments. Sometimes it comes in the form if indirect benefits such
as the increased health and productivity of the people, or the increased political
security of the nation relative to its rivals.

We went into massive debt to fund WW II and it turned out to be a huge windfall
for us. We're _still_ living off of the advantageous position the payoff from that
gamble put us in, though we've just about played it out.

If we honestly believe that we can outcompete our rivals in future with a populace that is ill-fed (corn syrup is not food, friends, and won't be available much longer anyway as biofuels become more lucrative--oh, and you can kiss the 99-cent hamburger goodbye within the next few years too), ill-cared for, and less educated, think again.

We don't do ourselves any favors by thinking we can sit on the world's major fuel supplies and do nothing to become more efficient ourselves. By refusing to look past our own ideological blinders to assess the real situation our grandchildren will be facing, we are condemning them to lives of poverty, despair, and violence.

Denying a fellow American health care is, in my view, an act of treason. We are going to need everyone we can get to focus on ways to deal with the coming energy crunch. The supply lines from the Persian Gulf are simply too long for us to hope to maintain access to the unlimited quantities of oil that we currently demand.

It is obvious that our government is too distracted by the fantasies of the super-rich to do anything constructive. If we are going to ensure good lives and good health for our grandchildren, we're going to have to organize ourselves in order to get it done.

We're also going to have to do the same thing to ensure that our grandchildren will have enough to eat. When the oils supplies go down, so will our network of food distribution. The rice crisis in Asia is just the first warning shot that we can no longer depend on large, distant, self-serving institutions to ensure our food security.

Neither big government not big business is capable of guaranteeing our access to health care. Why should we trust them with our food supply?

By the way, do you want to know why beer has gotten so expensive lately? Rice is a principal ingredient in most of the major commercial brands.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 191
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/24/2008 6:54:10 AM
Gees, guess where the money from war came from?


I already told you. We went into DEBT to pay for the war. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? It wouldn't have mattered if we reduced taxes or not, we didn't have the additional money in our budget to pay for it.


Why would the lower income earners need to support the wealthy?


Huh? Was this question up for discussion? The question was why should the wealthy support the lower income (excluding the poor -- obviously someone needs to keep them from starving and living on the street).


In Canada and in some european countries they might not have the luxuries of health and of great scientific research, but they do have dignity for all


Last I checked there were 5 million homeless people in Toronto, and Canada has the second largest homeless population of any first world nation (we are first).

Frankly I see two systems that have problems, but socialized medicine is not the solution.


YOu cannot abandon the weakest to their destiny.


That's why we have welfare and Medicaid for the poorest people in this country. What Canada, and many countries with socialized medicine do is pay for EVERYONE'S health care. What does this have to do with the poorest people?

The very poorest in our country ALREADY have health care. All we need to do is provide affordable health care to everyone else. I actually like Hillary Clinton's program, because it provides affordable health care to everyone, and allows them to choose from various plans, keeps the administration OUT of government. The poorest still get covered the way they always have.


Wow, 80 HIGH RISK pregnancies! I wouldn't say that that's a real big trend, would you?


That's JUST in BC. But the point is that Canada doesn't have the facilities to provide health care to its citizens now, and with an ageing population that problem is going to get worse. So you're sending your moms here. If the US didn't have redundancies in its system, we wouldn't be able to accommodate your mothers (not to mention people with other medical conditions that either come here and pay full freight, or that Canada sends here and pays for the care). If we didn't have those extra beds, some Canadian mothers would be having their babies on the street.

When was the last time you heard of a person coming to Canada because our health system didn't have beds? Equipment? Couldn't otherwise accommodate a patient?


Canada has entered the medical tourism field. In comparison to US health costs, medical tourism patients can save 30 to 60 percent on health costs in Canada.


The US has many more people coming to this country for health care than go to Canada, and both Americans and Canadians go abroad for health care. Some people in the US go abroad to save money. Canadians go abroad because they don't want to face unacceptably long wait times. Sometimes they are afraid that they will die while waiting.

The hot countries for medical tourism aren't the US OR Canada, but emerging 3rd world nations like India.


How many Americans go to Canada for health care, in a year, would you say? LOwer cost, equal or better quality......... any guesses?


Very very few. Canada has a serious shortage of essential medical equipment and hospital beds. There may be a few medical tourists that go to Canada for niche specialties, but for the most part there's nothing in Canada to attract most medical tourists. The entire country doesn't even have a proton therapy machine (unless you count the eye facility at Triumf). You have a couple of hundred MRI machines for 33 million people. Canada simply doesn't have the facilities to take care of its own, much less medical tourists.

Speaking of medical tourism, Ontario and BC have systems in place for the patients that they can't treat. Unfortunately the paperwork is so onerous that many patients just go ahead and pay for itself. But do you think that a provincial medical system that had adequate resources would be sending its patients out of the country?

http://medicaltourism.ca/medicaltourismcanada.html

I don't know of a single country with universal health care that doesn't have serious problems. It seems silly to trade one set of problems for another. This is why we need a different solution.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 192
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/24/2008 1:45:55 PM

If businesses were socially responsible, the idea of universal health care would go into the garbage for good.


Can't help you there. I pay for the health insurance for the employees of all of my businesses. I even pay their deductibles and copays.

The point isn't whether industry is socially responsible, but what do you do to make health care affordable so that most people can pay for it. The reason that most of the Democratic presidential candidates suggest extending the Federal employee health benefits to everyone is because they are affordable and have good service. Congressmen and Hill staffers also particpate in the plan (as I did when I was on the Hill).


Those in Canada that don't have the patience to wait in line, are more that welcome to go in front of the line in the US......I don't see a problem with that.


They are not only doing that, but availing themselves of the increasing numbers of private clinics -- especially prevalent in BC -- that offer joint replacements and other services for which patients wind up waiting on long lines. In fact, the President of the Canadian Medical Association, Brian Day, owns a private orthopedic clinic.

Eventually Canada will be two-tiered just like the UK. It might take a long time, but it's slowly been going in that direction.


Exactly: you are the first.....Have you ever wondered why a huge homeless population is always a reality in the capitalist system but not in the socialized or mixed-economy system?


Canada is second in the developed world, and not much behind the US. A few years ago it was AHEAD of the US.

That isn't much to brag about IMO.

Nonetheless, if you like your system, I have no problem with that. I don't live in Canada and outside of a visit I'm never going to be there.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 193
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/26/2008 4:47:12 AM

Toronto's population is 2.8 million.......so how could they have 5million homeless ?


Sorry, that was a typo. It was 5 thousand in 2006. The source was the City of Toronto Street Needs Assessment Report.

http://www.toronto.ca/housing/streetneeds.htm

On the other hand, New York City with a population of over 8 million had 3,025 homeless:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/city-sees-drop-in-homeless-population/

So it seems the tide may be turning the other way with Canada outranking us and regaining the number one position in the developed world.

I may goof once in a while, but NOTHING I say is unsubstantiated. I've just given up putting in links and references because this thread is so LONG.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 194
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/1/2008 5:25:32 AM
It's not widespread yet, but there are clinics of EVERY type from ob/gyn to family medicine, and not just in Quebec and BC. I don't know if you're familiar with a website called "findprivateclinics.ca", but they list various places where you can get private medical care in Canada.

Since you live in Ontario, here are a few near you:

Wellpoint Health Services
http://www.wellpointhealthservices.com/

Mississauga Wellness
http://www.mississaugawellness.com/

Regal Health Services
http://regalhealthservices.com/

This last one works with OHIP, and will get reimbursed where services are covered, you have to belong to the service at a cost of $3,300 per year. For that you get to see their physicians without the usual interminable waiting lists to see a doctor. They also arrange out of province or out of country diagnostic testing when necessary. It's a lot like the conceirge medical services offered in the United States.

Anyway, it's not terribly hard to get private medical care, even in Ontario.
 oc_jon1965
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 195
?FREE? Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:13:07 PM
FREE ?

nothing is free....

we are what?.. 9 trillion in debt..

oh yea...25+% of ALL FEDERAL INCOME TAXES
GOES TO PAY...JUST THE INTEREST..on our CURRENT DEBT

just the interest !

untill this country gets a handle on it foolish debt
there should be no new programs..of ANYTHING

and...current programs need to be SLASHED TO THE BONE
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 196
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:11:18 AM
I agree with you on the first part of your statement, but not the second.

People do need to manage chronic diseases by exercise and diet. Obesity leads to chronic conditions that will eventually bankrupt us.

However, what Hillary and Obama propose is to allow economies of scale when buying insurance by allowing individuals to buy into the insurance program for federal employees. That keeps insurance administration out of the government, where it doesn't belong.

The last thng we need is another rhino carcass of an entitlement program. Aren't Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare enough? They already take up over 50 percent of the budget.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 197
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/4/2008 5:41:29 AM
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. What program for federal employees?


The Federal Employee Health Benefit Plan. Every federal government employee, member of Congress and Congressional staff is entitlted to participate.

Doctors limit the number of Medicaid and Medicare patients they will take because of the poor reimbursement rates. They wouldn't be able to stay in business if all their reimbursement was that bad. So extending those to the general public would not do anything to solve the "healthcare crisis". Rather, you would see more doctors going the self-pay route, i.e., requiring their patients to pay for services and then giving THEM the paperwork to get reimbursed.

Poor reimbursement is why you see Canadian doctors coming to the US in record numbers (one in every 10 Canadian medical school graduates practices in the United States) and also a small number starting up private practices that work outside of the provincial systems.

If we did something similar, all we would perpetuate is the same.

Oh, and BTW "dear", I don't have any problems.
 flyonthewall!
Joined: 3/31/2008
Msg: 198
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:31:59 AM
1) Canada is very upset about losing 10 percent of their medical school graduates. There is a doctor shortage in Canada.

2) If you haven't heard of Hillary and Obama's plans, you should go to their web sites. They are spelled out there.

3) Reimbursement rates for Medicare and Medicaid are not sustainable if 100 percent of reimbursements are made at that rate. As the system stands now, the individuals with private insurance help pay for the Medicare/Medicaid patients. It would not be useful for doctors to stay in practice if they don't make money or they LOSE money.

4) NPs get reimbursed for services just like doctors do, and if they are in private practice at the same rate.

5) Other nurses work in a hospital or work for a doctor. Either way, they are getting paid directly or indirectly through insurance reimbursements. If the reimbursements are less, nurses' pay is less. That's checkbook 101.

As the system exists now physicians accept a small number of patients on Medicare and Medicaid. It's obvious that you don't have a close relative on one of these plans or you would already know that. If you ARE on Medicare or Medicaid you will often wind up calling a number of doctor's offices before you can locate one who has a "spot" for you.

I have a friend who called 20 doctors before she could locate an endocrinologist to treat her after she lost her diabetes doctor. That's not an uncommon occurrence.
 Sematic_Poise
Joined: 5/16/2008
Msg: 199
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/5/2008 9:45:09 AM
Obama's health care idea is going to help the poor AND medium income people who really need it. Alot of the immigrants coming into this country need that help because they are poor when they get here and he's going to make sure everyone gets it that should.

Those rich people and the people making more than medium income can take care of themselves. They should also pitch in to pay for the rest of us cause they can afford it. Right?

I'm not sure what the dollar cut-off amount for covering "medium" income Americans -- but I'm sure it will be fair.

He promised coverage for medium income people. I'm sure I'll fall into that category cause I don't think I make that much. Woo Hoo!!!

I'm gonna love this "CHANGE"
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 200
view profile
History
FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/6/2008 4:18:59 AM

1) Canada is very upset about losing 10 percent of their medical school graduates. There is a doctor shortage in Canada.


That's only because they are sucked into the American system, driven by greed. Some people become doctors because they want to make sick people well, and others become one because they want to own a Ferrari. I've met both types.

In my job, doctors are the ONLY profession I've come across where even their WIVES address them as "Dr. X" when I call their houses on alarms. They identify THEMSELVES in the same manner, on a small (but regular) basis.

I had an experience where a man tried to push past me as I opened the door to my automatic teller machine, which is connected to a small local medical clinic.

He looked at me in a rather superior manner, and said " I'm Doctor X, and I need access to the clinic NOW."

I replied " I'm alarm operator Monty, and this isn't the door to the clinic, it's the door to my bank machine. Now move out of my way, because I was here first. "

These doctors take full advantage of our low cost medical universities, which provide them with a world class education - as many American medical students do, when they come here to study. Unlike those foreign medical students, they don't pay the full price.

They are subsidized in that education by taxpayers, the same ones they desert when they leave their country for higher salaries.

These are people that are already near the top of the income level in this country, with jobs promised for life if they are half way decent. Things like bank loans for houses and the like are zero problems for them.

Even so, some are dissatisfied, and leave their country for greener pastures.

When they get out of medical school, all to many do not want to work in areas outside of the major metropolitan ones - and those areas are not the ones that need the most doctors.

If you look at how much American doctors make, versus others worldwide, you'll see they are at the top of the graph - and yet American health statistics are many times much lower than those of other countries.

That's where the problems start with the US getting any sort of universal health care system realistically.
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