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Show ALL Forums  > California  > The California RE market [LOCKED UNDER REVIEW]      Home login  
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 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 257
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The California RE marketPage 14 of 18    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
"By taking all of those jobs and many, many more, they have made it extra difficult for many of us natural born citizens to keep our jobs and have caused many of us to loose our jobs."

This is easy to say and claim ... I have yet to see it proven. If anyone knows of illegals employed all they have to do is insist on an immigration raid and they won't be employed any longer. Very simple. So, know an illegal? Report them.

What has been proven, often, is that they do jobs that employers cannot find Americans willing to do at the pay they are willing to offer. Now, this speaks to the business practices of corporate america today .. not the illegals.

Corporate America pasy the minimum they have to pay workers .... while charging the max they can charge consumers ... while paying out to stockholders the minimum they have to pay out .... and that big gap left over is the Executive team and CEO and Board members pay and benefits. The millions paid to heads of failing companies that a few of us are a tad upset about.
 MermaidSari
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 258
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History
The California RE market
Posted: 8/10/2009 8:40:41 PM
^^^^ (going back a bit...to local shopping/Mom and Pop/corp. businesses) and addressing foreign and domestic product...

Is there a distinction in the global economy we live in today?

Interesting side discussion men. *wink*

CN--do you think border patrol/authorities are worried about 'all' illegals?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 259
The California RE market
Posted: 8/10/2009 11:35:16 PM
I know this isn't always the case.... But at least 9 out of 10 I visited did. And where they live... I went to 1 that had about 10 to a small room (about 20 rooms) with no doors or running water. I could have done without that part of the tour I got.


Well, that's the tour you'd be getting here too if it hadn't been for unions. Will China let the workers unionize? We'll see, but I doubt it. And that is why I am a liberal and not a communist.

Hey Match, which do you think would turn out to be better for the stockholders: worker representation on the board, or constant resistance to productivity-increasing changes from a disaffected and self-interested union hierarchy?

Who's more likely to keep the compensation committee honest? A worker who hears things from the shop floor grapevine, or another CEO?
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 260
The California RE market
Posted: 8/11/2009 6:37:17 AM
cncgandolf,

You have yet to see it proven? Where have you been living? I have seen more than enough of it over and over and over. I have seen them deported and seen them return many times. I've seen the fake ID's. Until we finish the fence and are truly committed to protecting our borders, it does no good whatsoever to report them.

Sure, there is some greed by some companies, but many are so squeezed by taxes and insurance that it is very tough to resist he temptation to take the easy way out. I know, because I've been an employer and know what labor costs are like. They are horrendous.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 261
The California RE market
Posted: 8/11/2009 7:48:15 AM

Ace... Unions are just as power hungry and about money as any of these big corporations you keep talking about... And they break bones.


Of course they are. They've got people to protect. And just like any other competitive organization, they become self-interested and self-aggrandizing. There is no limit to the entitlement mentality.

Ever hear the term "goon?" Corporations also broke bones, as well as spirits, in the name of profits for their owners at the expense of their workers. There's a wise teacher from Brazil name Paolo Fiori. His observation is that people learn how to govern from those who governed them. Unions learned how to control the workplace from management. The only difference is that unions claimed, and in many cases actually did, act in the collective interests of the workers. Management seldom claimed to do that.

I don't want unions. I have never belonged to one. My dream is to be part of a kick-ass company that does it right by having appropriate representation on the board. I suspect a company like that will simply hammer the competition.

The bottom line for me is this: If the workers can't get adequate representation from within the company, they'll eventually go outside for it. If consumers and bystanders who are affected by the company's activities can't get adequate representation, they'll go to the government for it. But sooner or later, one way or another, they're going to get it because whether they own stock or not, they have some skin in it. Might as well recognize that fact and deal with it in the most cost-effective way possible.


I know this sounds like I'm being negative.... But I think I'm getting a glimpse of the writing on the wall. right up there!


Well, when everyone's thinking in black-and-white mode, the only option is for the pendulum to swing. Marx was right about the dialectic. What he migt not have been right about was the emergence of a synthesis. It could just go back and forth between one mindless extreme and the other in an endless cycle until a new technology emerges--one that supplants the means of production and forces a new social arrangement.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 262
The California RE market
Posted: 8/11/2009 12:29:24 PM

since when, as a natural born citizen, did you become any more entitled than any other citizen of the US? like many, you seem to have a screwed up understanding of who's protected under our constitution and who is not. and others are not responsible for your unfortunate circumstances. we americans sure seem to need somebody to blame lately huh? beginning to wear a little thin.


I'm not talking about other citizens. I not talking about legal immigrants. I'm talking about illegal immigrants that work under the table, which is all against the law.

They also have been known to live with many families to one home and gobble up low rent housing like crazy, forcing those of us who are citizens to pay more for housing. There are so many negative side effects, it's amazing how many want to turn a blind eye.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 263
The California RE market
Posted: 8/11/2009 5:08:04 PM
That's full on BS. I guarantee, if they didn't take over our jobs, then there would have been enough for me and other citizens. Don't you see how that works? It's very simple to see.

Here's an example: I was out of work. I went to a jobsite for the company I regularly worked for. I knew the forman because we worked side by side before he became a foreman. When I got to the job I could see there was plenty of the work I was very well trained in and very capable of doing a great job at. He didn't even acknowledge me until I finally asked, "what's wrong, am I the wrong color?". He looked at me and nodded without saying a word.

Don't tell me the group of people that took my job by living a 3rd world lifestyle to undercut the wages to get the job are not to blame.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 264
The California RE market
Posted: 8/11/2009 6:14:06 PM
I have to weigh in with Gogetter at least in part. Attached you will find a link that tells a story about a small town, no large forces, just a small town in the middle of America.

What this link fails to tell is a immigration raid since the link date, and the 10,000's of citizens who applied for this work.

This is a difficult issue full of human tragedy that goes both ways, but to say it has zero impact on American citizens is to engage in delusional thinking.

http://www.frostywooldridge.com/articles/art_illegal_immig_invades_small_town_2003.html
 MermaidSari
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 265
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The California RE market
Posted: 8/11/2009 6:33:10 PM
^^a side note in the side discussion. What 'worked' as far as getting out of the great depression?...(there is no documentary proof that 'spending' worked...regardless of scholarly 'theories' given and taught. Many scholars of 'today' agree that today's spending will carry a price tag far beyond the billions calculated [politically it is unsurmountable]).

So what did give the U.S. gains over losses during the 40's? We did not have a fully globalized economy. We even had steel mills back then...go figure. :-p.

We were actually ****able**** to 'buy' American. With this we 'circulated' money 'here in the U.S.' With this borders were enforced...'why'...? Because jobs were scarce and even children were working for peanuts (Isn't that how Carter started his career? :-p). We see crime increase when we see people desiring to 'survive' versus actualizing the "American" dream (speaking of RE *wink*). Today we see crime rates increasing alongside joblessness.

We live in a different economy that is 'interconnected' and 'dependent.' IMHO--borders need to be closed in more than one way if we desire 'growth' as a nation (not merely population growth which has costs attached as well as positives and negatives).

The costs of 'illegal' residents in medical and other costs could carry down our deficit (let alone health care crisis and costs) and 'yes' create jobs where they are needed by way of supply and demand.

Now--if you don't mind, I have to head down to Home Depot to find me some cheap labor...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jbogie --

this thread was started eight months ago but you ain't seen nothing yet is my guess. the housing market is just taking a breather on it's way down. the real falloff in prices has yet to come. expecially in california, nevada and florida.

Only 8 months ago, is that all? lol.

Actually, jb ... prices have 'inched' up (but alas...is this temporary?) in some areas in CA (San Diego being one of them depending upon the subdivision. Spring Valley is still 'way' down in prices. Some San Diego homes (depending on districts again) are up as much as 7k [homes advertised within the last month with increases]). Home sales have also increased in the last two months. Overall we see a slowing down in decreases and some 'thought' stability (not necessarily my own opinion shared). *wink*

Yet the question remains...is this temporary and are we in 'truth' in a recovery period?
Of course then comes September...September...September (nobody answered the 2 dollar question...what is predicted for September)?



Thanks all for your thoughts. Interesting read. :-)
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 266
The California RE market
Posted: 8/12/2009 12:36:58 PM
Don't tell me the group of people that took my job by living a 3rd world lifestyle to undercut the wages to get the job are not to blame.


They aren't. They're just doing what they can to better their lot. If you want to know who is responsible for creating the conditions that are favorable to them and their lifestyle, look at those who do the hiring.

They are the ones who are profiting off of your misfortune and the misfortune of those other workers. You won't stop illegal immigration by deporting illegals. They'll just come back. You stop it by jailing those who break the law, and the economy by employing illegals and paying them under the table.

You think that it's the illegals who are engaging in unfair competition, and to an extent they are. But it is the sharks higher up the food chain who are gnawing at us all.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 267
The California RE market
Posted: 8/12/2009 8:34:13 PM

My advice to the leaders of America entrusted with the future of our nation is to stand up honestly and courageously for American workers, consumers, voters and investors. We're sick of their ignoring laws, putting corporations before people, and politicians from hell.


Seems to me what this article shows is that the profiteers at the meat plant and their hacks were perfectly content to ruin the town and oppress the townspeople if they could get illegal immigrants to do the work cheaper and with less need for accountability for safety and quality.

I agree with the townsman who stood up. He understood the situation. Gogetter was simply spouting uncritical tripe because, in my opinion, he lacks the courage of that man to even understand the situation he is in, let alone deal with it effectively.

There are two sets of exploited people here--the illegals, and the unemployed. Blaming the other exploited group for one's own exploitation is, in a word, stupid.

What drives such stupidity? My first guess is racism, but I'm willing to concede I could be wrong on that one. Anyone care to ask me why that's my first guess? And no, it's not because of some liberal koolaid I've supposedly drunk.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 268
The California RE market
Posted: 8/12/2009 11:22:12 PM
Ok, so now because I shared a personal experience that clearly showed illegals took the job away from me by living a 3rd world lifestyle, which allowed them to undercut my wages, I'm labled as both stupid and racist. You should learn that Ad Homen is not a valid argument and it is the most common tactic used when you know you've lost the argument and have nothing further of value to add.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 269
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 12:17:38 AM
The illegals took a job that was offered to them. In their position, you would do the same--and did when it was their kids who were starving back home in Central America.

Your line of reasoning stops at the proximate cause of your problem, not the antecedent causes. Someone appears to be in your way so you want to push them out of the way. If that's as far as your analysis of the situation goes, you tell me how to characterize it.

You identify with the business owners and want to be counted among the favored class. You do not relate to the illegal immigrant who is different, marginalized, and of the "wrong" background because you consider them ineligible to enter that class, even if they're willing to work harder for less pay and endure "third world" condiitions so that their kids might have a chance.

You fail to see that your position in society is much closer to theirs than it is to the business owners that you identify with. So maybe it isn't exactly racism, but it is still pretty damned stuipd.

You can fault me for ad hominem, but that is what you do every time you claim that "they" took "your" job and dehumanize them for doing exactly what you would do in a heartbeat if you were in their shoes. They took the jobs they were offered. Who was it who decided not to play by the rules and offer the jobs to those who were legally eligible to take them?

You started off by saying not to tell you the truth about your predicament because your mind was already made up. Why don't you tell me how to characterize that sort of unwillingness to learn.

No. You just want to feel like you're right. Well, why don't you step back a minute, question your assumptions like an honest person, and see if there might be something constructive you can do--like the gentleman in the story fz cited did. Then you might have a chance of actually getting it right. But no, you'r content to blame the other victims in the situation because that allows you to avoid thinking for yourself.

And now you want to dismiss me because I'm not feeling sorry for you in your refusal to learn from history? If you are a working man, you have to use your vote and rely on your fellow working people to keep an eye on the ownership class. They obviously don't care about you, but they'll happily let you and the "illegals" fight it out while they laugh at the both of you all the way to the bank.

When you fall for that nonsense, you tell me how to characterize it.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 270
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 6:29:21 AM
I have nothing against people coming here legally and competing for jobs. Everything is on the up and up and fair. It's when they come here illegally, flood the market, work under the table and subvert the system that makes it unfair. You people cry for equality but always want more than that.

I can identify with employees because I have been one and business owners because I have owned my own small business with as many as 14 employees at a time.

I have friends of every race that speak english and talk just like I do. I'm not a racist. I just want to play by the same rules. When they get here illegally, they more often than not work illegally, taking our jobs and taking from our system without putting anything back. If they were to came here legally they wouldn't be flooding the market, which includes the RE market.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 271
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 6:47:25 AM
My point was a single idea, that illegals taking jobs impacted American workers. Start with facts and build a pyramid, Ace you go to solution before understanding a problem, Let's admit you're just a talking point repeater. usually attributing the culprpits to the dark forces of business, as surely as I assign blame to governments unwilling to enforce laws, punish those business's etc.

I've seen many, many senior level professionals standard of living and careers decline dramatically as very capable Indian technology workers came to the USA on work visa's. Smart, hard working, ambitious and willing to work harder for less money. Is it a good thing or a bad thing in balance? It's good for them. Likely good for their employers. Likely good for their clients and customers. Clearly not good for the Americans who competed in that space. Those are facts. I can argue it either way (the granting of work visa's) but to not obtain the facts first is boring and unproductive discussion.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 272
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 7:05:39 AM
How do you know building a wall and shipping them back won't work? If they want a better life, then force them deal with their corrupt government by not giving them the easy way out and forcing them to stay there and fight for what they want at home or continue to live a 3rd World lifestyle.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 273
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 7:34:39 AM
Jbogie first you glossed over the facts, then you imposed your value system on facts you haven't even agreed to. We've accepted the conventional wisdom of the advantages of legal and illegal immigration for several decades, I think at times like this it is legitimate to revisit our assumptions.

We have prisoners who get sex change operations on the public, anyone who can make it to America and be utterly clueless can get all kinds of benefits and protections not afforded citizens can't?

Sit yourself down, use a few more question marks, be less generous with your conventiuonal wisdom and cliches and revisit your operating assumptions.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 274
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 7:44:14 AM
We won't know if the wall works if we don't complete it. Doing nothing and turning a blind eye is what has gotten us where we are today. The problem is huge, but if we do nothing, they will take over out country and drag it down to their level.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 275
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 2:15:56 PM
Doing nothing and turning a blind eye is what has gotten us where we are today.


Exactly. What do you think would be cheaper and more effective. A wall, or a few flagrant employers of illegals thrown in jail?

Golfcoast, the point, talking or otherwise, is that if you want to get to the root of a perniciuos social problem you need to find out who benefits most from it.

Yes, the illegals benefit to an extent, but you tell me who are the ones who really make out. And now they've got us ponying up to build a gigantic wall, as if we weren't deep enough in the hole already.

Pop five rogue employers in the slam for five years, and there won't be any more jobs for undocumented workers.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 276
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 4:41:46 PM
Getting to the bottom of what? I'm guilty, my maid, gardener, pool guy, guy who washes my car, bus's table in the restauarant, likely picks up the trash, etc. are of unknown origin. So Hormel meat packers and I are guilty, I accept my part, so what? Accordingly the immigrants leaving home and loved ones for a new strange new land full of dangers and delights are at some fault. So What?

What you are NOT accepting is the government, who should be the fair arbiter of such things has not been a force ffor good, creating attractive magnets, all kinds of 'free zones", rewarding behaviors that have clearly created a tipping point.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 277
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 9:22:55 PM

we have been in a declining productivity cycle for years especially in the manufacturing sector and in particular auto manufacturing.


Actually, that's not true. Until the bubble burst, productivity was rising. What wasn't rising to keep pace with either productivity gains or inflation, was wages.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 278
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 9:29:33 PM

What you are NOT accepting is the government, who should be the fair arbiter of such things has not been a force ffor good, creating attractive magnets, all kinds of 'free zones", rewarding behaviors that have clearly created a tipping point.


Two words: appropriate regulation. You are absolutely right that the government has failed to do its job in this, as in many other areas.

If you want the unfairness to be addressed, it ain't gonna happen without a government. Just look at any failed state if you think that no government is what you want.

We let ourselves get distracted by the Real Orange County Housewives version of the American Dream--though why anybody would want to live like that is beyond me--and stopped holding our business leaders accountable. When we did that, it didn't take long for our government officials to go slack too.

GC, if you ran for office things would get better. Hell, if I ran for office things might even get better--because you and I actually give a shit.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 279
The California RE market
Posted: 8/13/2009 10:09:08 PM

you're still biting their bait. yes, politicos tell us often we won't know until we SPEND THE MONEY and see. yes i agree. we cannot do nothing but we especially cannot do something that may result in nothing. i have yet to see a comprehensive plan that encompasses all aspects of illegal immigration. an such a plan will not come from the political system that you seem to be eating up.


I'm biting no ones bait. I speak from personal experience and knowledge.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 280
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History
The California RE market
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:44:51 AM
^^^^^^I think it's hard to overstate the damage illegal immigration has done to this country. Especially in states like California, these people cost the rest of us billions a year. Think of the direct load they place on public schools, on hospitals, on welfare services, on public safety services, on roads, on utility services, on housing, on vehicle traffic, and on air and water quality. And whatever part of their wages illegal immigrants send outside the U.S. is spent there. What they contribute in various taxes does next to nothing to offset the huge costs of having them here.

If the federal government won't make a serious effort to enforce immigration laws, why even have them? It's fashionable to praise cultural "diversity" as a virtue by itself. It's not. For this or any country, immigration is valuable only when there's good reason to believe the immigrants will, on the whole, contribute more than they cost. And their allegiance to the values and traditions of the host country should always be considered. By letting in millions of people who care very little about defending the U.S., in any way, we're ensuring our own decline.

BTW, I think the Supreme Court got it wrong in Plyler v. Doe, where it said we have to provide the children of illegal immigrants a public education. I'm convinced the Court based this decision on a misreading of the 14th Amendment, and I hope someday it will overrule Plyler. But having seen how our newest Justice decides cases in favor of whichever party she empathizes with, I'm not holding my breath.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 281
The California RE market
Posted: 8/19/2009 12:54:13 AM
Take the time to watch this video and you will learn allot about the real estate bust.

Thomas Sowell Economist

Maybe we can get the thread back on topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GoAGuTIbVY&feature=related
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