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 shore66
Joined: 5/23/2004
Msg: 26
who are feminists? Page 2 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

feminism has brought on disgusting t-shirts for children to wear, denouncing their opposite gender [/quote}



The company which makes these t-shirts is owned by a guy.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 27
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 5:29:20 PM
I stand corrected. But she was hardly the mainstream of feminism.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 28
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 6:03:53 PM
The fact of her being "mainstream" or not has nothing to do with the numbers, but with the power wielded. Feminism is composed basically of two types of followers: The radicals (Dworkin, Solanas, French, Greer, McKinnon, etc.) and uncountable numbers of anonymous followers. And those radicals are the ones who have the power to shape policies, and make laws. Why? Because they are the only ones who are commited enough to act (all the others simply stand down and wait for the benefits).

Have you ever heard a "mainstream" feminist saying "That's not what we stand for" when hearing the ramblings of one of the radicals calling for "castrating all males" while dancing with scissors around their necks? Have you ever heard a moderate fem on TV saying "not all men are rapists"? I'd bet you haven't. And that's because they don't do it.

So, all those anonymous followers let the radicals steal their voice, steal their representativity, and speak on behalf of all of them. And what do they do to prevent it? Nothing. Do they protest? Not a peep.

So, they shouldn't complain if people see them as all the same. They did it to themselves.
 shore66
Joined: 5/23/2004
Msg: 29
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 6:19:15 PM

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin




Fire and Ice is a novel. Characters say and do lots of things in novels.

I haven't read it, and I doubt you have either. In fact, I wonder how many of these works you quote you have read.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 30
view profile
History
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 6:24:12 PM
The company which makes these t-shirts is owned by a guy

I'm aware of that fact. I see you've done your homework. Dav. and Golia.is the surrealness, in itself. People do anything for money these days, including child pornography, and yes, using children as pawns (T-shirts flaming hate male) in the fight for power. I never said feminist's were solely female. There are countless men in the gov't agencies (DA's, polics, etc) who support the feminist's swells. There's profffffffffffffit all along the way.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 31
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 6:41:20 PM

I wonder how many of these works you quote you have read.

More than you, obviously. And not only from her. Anyway, you wanted names and references to objectable speeches or articles, and I gave them. I see you didn't answer to any of them.
 shore66
Joined: 5/23/2004
Msg: 32
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 7:11:30 PM

I see you didn't answer to any of them.




I sort of thought that pointing out that an outrageous statement was from a work of fiction was answering that one.


As for: "Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination." I don't see anything to dispute there, do you? It is not saying ALL men.


Or this:
"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." Historically true.
 philrook
Joined: 1/20/2005
Msg: 33
view profile
History
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 7:30:16 PM
There are many people that call themselves feminists. The feminist movement in recent times has turned away from the attitude of "the best man for the job is a woman", which was a poster in my grade 12 law class, to something more realistic like "equal pay for equal work".

This is important ... men and women are not the same but they do deserve equal treatment by all of society. Martha Stewart is a prime example ... before feminism she wouldn't have been able to run the empire she ran and she would never have be sent to jail for her mistakes. Now she is recognized as being capable and responsible just like her fellow men.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 34
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 7:53:02 PM

Historically true.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you really believe that, well, I think there is no common ground to discuss.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 35
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History
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 8:00:07 PM
I so agree^^^

It's difficult holding a conversation with a zealot. Talk about grabbing at straws. Some people will stop at nothing, no matter how ridiculous they become, and would argue with a fencepost, whether it talked back or not.
 shore66
Joined: 5/23/2004
Msg: 36
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 9:30:19 PM

If you really believe that, well, I think there is no common ground to discuss.




If you don't really believe that, why not do some research? Forced marriage by abduction and rape is still going on in parts of the world.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 37
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 9:40:13 PM
Forced marriage by abduction and rape is still going on in parts of the world.

Yes, I've heard that in some poor parts of India, Hindu males of high caste are kidnapped and forcefully married to lower caste females.

And about doing research, what about researching about the real effects of feminism in families destroyed, fatherless children and embittered women?

You know, even if what you say about marriage were true, I don't think that revenge would be a good foundation for a social movement.
 shore66
Joined: 5/23/2004
Msg: 38
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 9:59:34 PM

Yes, I've heard that in some poor parts of India, Hindu males of high caste are kidnapped and compelled to marry lower caste females.




Are you trying to say that men are the usual victims of forced abduction and marriage by rape? Try telling that to the women in Ethiopia.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 39
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 9:59:51 PM
If you really want to research, I'd recommend you: "Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women" by Christina Hoff Sommers, and "Feminist Fantasies" by Phyllis Schlafly.

Anyway Shore, why to go on? You don't want to hear opinions against feminism, and have to use extreme examples from faraway places to keep justifying its abuses in your own country. If I wanted, I would list a lot of examples of its evil, a lot closer than Ethiopia. But I won't do, because there is no use. Keep thinking that feminism is good. Nobody will convince you of the contrary, even if they put all the evidence in the world at your doorstep.
 shore66
Joined: 5/23/2004
Msg: 40
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 10:19:09 PM

Keep thinking that feminism is good. Nobody will convince you of the contrary, even if they put all the evidence in the world at your doorstep




I would be very interested to see your evidence of "the real effects of feminism in families destroyed, fatherless children and embittered women." So far I don't believe you have presented any.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 41
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 10:25:03 PM
I gave you two books. They're a good start.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 42
view profile
History
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 11:27:49 PM
would be very interested to see your evidence of "the real effects of feminism in families destroyed, fatherless children and embittered women." So far I don't believe you have presented any.

I believe tango has provided you with two books, one by Christina Hoff Summers, the other by Phylis Schafly, with regard to the destructive nature of feminism, so, yes, in fact, he has presented the evidence to support his idealogy, as I've read both authors in question.

Would you like to borrow my fencepost? I believe you might like to continue your argument.

You>>>>>>>

nitey nite
 jennifer j
Joined: 10/15/2004
Msg: 43
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/12/2005 11:37:30 PM
WE all are I am woman hear me roar
 Flynndanarra
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 44
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History
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 9:36:18 AM
You are taking quotes out of context. There is much explanation on Andrea's official website. This for example


Andrea Dworkin believes that all intercourse is rape.

FALSE. She has never said this. She sets the record straight in a 1995 interview with British novelist Michael Moorcock. And in a new preface to the tenth-anniversary edition of Intercourse (1997), Andrea explains why she believes this book continues to be misread:


[I]f one's sexual experience has always and without exception been based on dominance--not only overt acts but also metaphysical and ontological assumptions--how can one read this book? The end of male dominance would mean--in the understanding of such a man--the end of sex. If one has eroticized a differential in power that allows for force as a natural and inevitable part of intercourse, how could one understand that this book does not say that all men are rapists or that all intercourse is rape? Equality in the realm of sex is an antisexual idea if sex requires domination in order to register as sensation. As sad as I am to say it, the limits of the old Adam--and the material power he still has, especially in publishing and media--have set limits on the public discourse (by both men and women) about this book [pages ix-x].
 Flynndanarra
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 45
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who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 9:45:58 AM
Sometimes in order to make a point one must shock the hell out of ones intended audience.

hy would such an essay about rape be needed? Rape is already prevalent. Mysogyny abounds. At some point in her life nearly every woman is subjected to some form of discrimination, violence, harassment, or sexism. It is all around us and is a disgusting world wide phenomenon. Something serious needs to be done and if we need to use shock value to get the attention of the world SO BE IT.

I recently attended a couple of feminist conferences. Some of the humour presented was not "nice". Some of it attacked not only sexism but other forms of discrimination, like racism. The point is to make people think. to turn the "norm" around and show how shocking it would be if a MAN (or white person or rich person etc... depending on the subject of the rant) were subjected to the kind of treatment that women (people of races other than white, poor people etc...) tend to be subjected to. Humans, for the most part do not like to think. They often do not like to challenge the status quo. Sometimes it takes a shock to do so. Rape litterature does not have the same effect or purpose because rape still has a place in opur society and in our world.
 Goddard
Joined: 2/17/2005
Msg: 46
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 10:55:14 AM
Her words are her words. That "out of context" would be valid if I'd say, for example, "I don't believe in murder" and somebody else says "He said: "believe in murder", leaving out the "I don't".

In this case, these quotes are complete sentences. No other reading possible. And backtracking what she said only shows that she realized how hateful and loony she sounded, and wanted to sugarcoat it.

If you believe in shock value, I imagine that you would approve if antifeminists use the same shock value to present their ideas. Or anti-abortion people. Or radical muslims. Or Republicans. Or anybody else.

The thing is that, if you think that "shock value" is valid, then you shouldn't complain if somebody else uses it against your ideas.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 47
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 1:06:08 PM
Jeez, I'm reluctant to say this, but Tango is really proving his point. He asked if responsible feminists would denounce Andrea Dworkin, and all the subsequent posts have been defences of her. If the argument over feminism becomes an argument over what is frankly hate speech, then feminism loses. This notion that all evil is the result of patriarchy is untenable. Some people with power will abuse that power - always has been and always will be - doesn't matter the gender. Infants who are killed are usually killed by their mothers. Men are far more likely to be victims of violence than women. Rape is an act of violence, but not different in kind than other acts of violence. This demonizing of the other - in this case men - does not further discussion, nor help anyone.
 Flynndanarra
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 48
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who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 3:26:32 PM
Shock value is a tool that can be used appropraitely to defend many ideas. The point is that it has to be used appropriately and has nothing to do with whether or not the person using it has the same beliefs as I do.

For example, if it is being used during a respectful debate between adults, and it is ideantified clearly as an example used to shock, that is fine. The web site with pictures of post abortion fetuses that was posted in the abortion debate thread for example wuld fall in that catagory. It uses shocking images and is being presented in a place where adults will see it but children will not. When an anti-abortionist is in the street protesting with such images on their signs and shoving the images in the faces of children and telling the kids that their arents, who are pro-choice are baby killers that is not appropriate (though I would defend their right to peacefully protest and express their beleifs were someone to say that they should not protest at all)

As for context, one complete sentance does not always tell the whole story. The rest of the page or paragraph sometimes clarifies one sentance that on the surface seems very offensive. In addition, it was pointed out that at least one of those quotes is from a work of FICTION.
 Flynndanarra
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 49
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who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 3:28:25 PM
" Men are far more likely to be victims of violence than women "

Do you have statistics to back this statement up?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 50
who are feminists?
Posted: 6/13/2005 3:48:12 PM
That's an easy one - just check the trial docket at your local court house, or check the police records in your area. You'll find the vast majority of violence if committed by men against men.
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