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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...      Home login  
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 MrGuyCaballero
Joined: 2/27/2007
Msg: 32
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...Page 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Just to add another twist...

It's been mentioned a couple of times that black holes can create mass. I believe what's being referred to here is Hawking Radiation wherein the basic explanation is that particle and anti-particle pairs are constantly coming into being everywhere but also constantly annihilating each other. However, at the event horizon of a black hole sometimes an anti-particle will fall into the black hole, subtracting from its mass, while the particle is emitted (Hawking Radiation). This model seems to suggest that the amount of matter in the universe would not be affected since the antiparticle reduces the mass of the black hole, and thus black holes can evaporate over time. What I've always wondered about this, though, is couldn't it sometimes be that the particle goes into the black hole and the anti-particle is emitted instead, thus increasing the mass of the black hole and decreasing the mass outside the black hole?
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 35
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 5:20:27 AM

I guess we will find out in May 2008


Won't be in May, as with most large R&D projects its schedule has slipped. More than likely will be Aug/Sept.
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 36
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 10:53:24 AM
Wow, I like this subject, kind of a pet peeve of mine. I like to try and say things and read things the layman can understand however. Some of you are way over my head, but let me see if I have this straight.
Where asking if matter can be created or destroyed, some of you are asking if matter can be transferred into energy and visa versa. Two different questions if I understand you all.
As I understand the universe, based on what I have read, matter, even at the smallest of subatomic levels has energy. Based on the laws of Thermodynamics this energy is derived from differences in mass. If you compress matter, any matter, into a small enough volume it gains energy. This energy can be measured by the electromagnetic spectrum. The substance of matter, protons, neutrons and gluons and so forth, can be balanced giving us the known forms of matter, or they can be ripped apart as they become unstable due to instability as the mass becomes to large. Regardless of if your talking about a nuclear device or our sun, the basic building blocks of matter doesn’t just disappear, it will move outward and coalesce in another place. Right now our sun is dumping millions of tons of matter per second out into space as the nuclear reaction continues to convert hydrogen into helium, the difference in mass or the energy created from this blows the remaining subatomic particles into space. What we get here on Earth is a shower of subatomic particles that coalesce here on earth or anywhere else that they end up. On form of matter being transformed into another form and then moving to another place to once again be transformed into another form of matter when it arrives. While all the while the energy of this transformation is measured by us in the electromagnetic spectrum.
Now, there is so much energy transfer going on from this transformation that other things can use the energy to continue to transform other matter into energy, such as all life on earth does.
As I understand big bang, there is a finite or measurable amount of matter in the universe. The amount of matter has not changed in last 12 billion years, only the transfer of matter from one form to another as the laws of motion continue to make the universe expand. Back to energy being derived from a compressed mass expanding into a large mass as the universe expands, more thermodynamics on a much larger scale. Still the amount of matter does not change. Therefore the end conclusion to our universe is that it dies into a cold ever expanding expanse as all matter loses energy as the mass of what we call our universe dissipates as all matter stops moving over time, like wisps of smoke.
Then in comes black holes.....(This is on my mind now)
So we see the universe expanding on a large scale though recent observations. What is going on is that the space between masses of matter we see as galaxies is expanding, not necessarily the space between the galaxies. Strings of galaxies can almost, I emphasize almost, can be thought of as coalescing. We see galaxies colliding, recent observations have pointed out that not only Andromada is heading for us, but maybe we have two other smaller galaxies that are already colliding with the Milky way. I don’t believe it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that all matter will dissipate its energy completely. Certainly a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxies gives us a lot more to think about.
“What if “ the center of every black hole is the same exact point in space time. Suppose these black holes are not just a building block of galaxies, but themselves are the remnants of the big bang, the one singularity at the beginning blown apart into billions of other black holes, and at the heart of each black hole is “THE” singularity. All of them being the same exact point in space time. The inevitable conclusion to all matter to be condensed back into this singularity which appears to be in billions of places, but isn't.
The only place where matter and energy truly exist as one entity. The face of God perhaps.
I like super string theory too, but the questions don’t stop at membranes, where did the membranes come from?
How did I do?
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 37
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 12:48:26 PM

So we see the universe expanding on a large scale though recent observations. What is going on is that the space between masses of matter we see as galaxies is expanding, not necessarily the space between the galaxies. Strings of galaxies can almost, I emphasize almost, can be thought of as coalescing. We see galaxies colliding, recent observations have pointed out that not only Andromada is heading for us, but maybe we have two other smaller galaxies that are already colliding with the Milky way. I don’t believe it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that all matter will dissipate its energy completely. Certainly a super massive black hole at the center of every galaxies gives us a lot more to think about.
“What if “ the center of every black hole is the same exact point in space time. Suppose these black holes are not just a building block of galaxies, but themselves are the remnants of the big bang, the one singularity at the beginning blown apart into billions of other black holes, and at the heart of each black hole is “THE” singularity. All of them being the same exact point in space time. The inevitable conclusion to all matter to be condensed back into this singularity which appears to be in billions of places, but isn't.
The only place where matter and energy truly exist as one entity. The face of God perhaps.
I like super string theory too, but the questions don’t stop at membranes, where did the membranes come from?
How did I do?

I don't know where to start here, but first of all, our galaxy belongs to a cluster of galaxies, as do most galaxies we have observed(not all galaxies). Collisions between galaxies are fairly rare. Black holes are thought to be common in the center of galaxies, but there are galaxies that we've observed that don't have very large if any black holes in their center. Rates of rotation near the center of galaxies is what we use to calculate the sized of black holes. What most people don't think about when they think of the universe expanding is that isn't just expanding at the edges, it is expanding everywhere. If what we have observed about the universe's expansion doesn't change in the future, there will be lots of matter at some point in time that is very cold, near absolute zero nothing else.

A side note here is that if gravity is as string theory predicts, LHC will be able to create very small black holes that will exist for just an instant.
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 38
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 1:48:54 PM
Agreed Cowboy that the collision of galaxies is a weak part of my theory, however...
You can't dismiss the fact that galaxie clusters and strings of galaxies do seem to be coalescing as greater expanses of nothing appear to bubble between the clusters and strings. This of course is the visible universe we are talking about. As you say, the universe is expanding everywhere, but are the bubbles between the clusters and strings expanding at a larger rate then the clusters and strings are dissapating. If so then the clusters are being pushed together as the bubbles expand.
Certainly no one can say if every galaxy has a black hole, but we can only measure one if other objects are near it or the hole is feeding, which also seems to be somewhat rare. The interesting part of this is that galaxies exist at all. But it’s because they exist that I believe this gives my idea some merit. Certainly larger gravitational fields exist that are beyond our understanding at the moment, otherwise they wouldn’t exist at all. Why is gravity so weak? And what force allowed all the matter in the universe to expand without it falling back in on itself? Did the universe ignore the galactic speed limit for the first few moments of the big bang? Or is there other gravitational fields at work that helped all of that matter achieve escape velocity? At this point it would make more sense if the singularity separated into more singularities pulling the matter apart as they expanded from each other, forming galaxies as it went. The possible foundation for galaxies building.
Or we can talk about dark matter, which would have had to exist prior to the big bang in order for that to work.
This is fun
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 39
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 2:00:28 PM
Think of it as a mirror, smash the mirror and you have thousands of tiny mirrors. (Black Holes) But they are still all part of the same mirror, doesn't make any differnce how many times you smash it or how far away the pieces are from one another, its still the same mirror.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 40
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 5:24:08 PM
Either I'm not understanding what you are trying to say or you might look to an article like the following: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040522/bob9.asp
Anyway I'm not following what you are saying.
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 41
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:15:55 PM
Sorry Cowboy, I was brainstorming. Great article, thanks. The only thing I was trying to do is to Is to find some way the universe can remain cyclical. The thought of a cold expanding out of control universe doesn’t settle well with me and somehow it doesn’t seem plausible. So instead of using one big crunch at the end, I was trying to explain it away by having billions of little crunches. I was following no real theory's, just my own stuff.
Per the article, I tend to stay on the side of variable gravity and C not being a constant. For some reason this makes more sense.
But this is just a rookie speaking, just thought is would be fun to talk about...
 ZeroSpazz
Joined: 1/31/2008
Msg: 42
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:25:04 PM
Were waiting Sarutobi, whats the answer? You apparently know, go for it.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 43
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:27:21 PM

wow

I can't believe the amout of bullshit I can read here. Guys, go take some physics and maths class before posting answers here.


set us straight
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 45
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/5/2008 9:01:46 AM

Something else that campe up. Dark matter. It already has been answered. The bottomline is that we don't know shit about dark matter yet.


Not exactly true, we know what it is not & we know how it must interact with other matter if it exists at all.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 46
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/6/2008 5:53:55 AM
Energy in physics is defined as the ability to do work. Work=Force x Distance
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 47
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/6/2008 7:44:04 AM
Where as Force = Mass x Acceleration
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 49
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/6/2008 2:27:42 PM
Heisenberg(father of matrix quantum mechanics&uncertainty principle) had two Jewish parents, but I'm sure, but he may have been an agnostic, Schrodinger(father of quantum wave theory) drew his inspiration from a woman that he took to the Swiss Alps over a six week holiday, Einstein was a humanist the didn't believe in a God that mettled in things(he also didn't believe much in quantum mechanics anyway, which pretty much lead him to waste the last half his life trying to develop a unified theory based on general relativity). Neils Bohr only contribution to quantum mechanics was his students. His claim to fame was a valiance theory of atoms which only worked for hydrogen. His theory was later modify to work for other atoms. These guy's were legends when they stuck to explaining the physical world with mathematics, not be of any supernatural beliefs the harbored. Having said that, I'm not following you.

As for Novas & Super Novas creating matter, they don't. They disperse it.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 52
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/7/2008 7:19:30 AM
One of the ways heavy elements are "created" by nucleosynthetic that occur during a supernova(r process). What happens here is that there are lots of neutrons bombarding existing elements. Matter isn't "created" is more of a transformation.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 53
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/7/2008 8:07:31 AM
Which is hindsight is somewhat similar to what collider do.
 Kelley-88
Joined: 2/7/2008
Msg: 55
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/13/2008 7:12:15 AM
The universe exists. Therefore, matter comes from nothing. Therefore, matter can be created and perhaps still is being created.
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 Nolanj
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 59
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 4/12/2008 10:29:59 PM
I truly enjoyed reading the way you propose that perhaps all our "experiences" transform into heat, maybe dissapating into the atmosphere and just maybe, in that instant become finally at one with the Universe; the Alpha & Omega. I myself would like to assume that once
I take my final breadth, a different "body of light" made of a currently unknown undiscovered, anti-matter property would lead me to my next spiritual domain. Hopefully my behavior and conduct in this materialistic world would allow me to continue to serve a higher Ideal..
 Nolanj
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 60
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 4/12/2008 10:37:03 PM
I truly enjoyed reading the way you propose that perhaps all our "experiences" transform into heat, maybe dissapating into the atmosphere and just maybe, in that instant become finally at one with the Universe; the Alpha & Omega. I myself would like to assume that once
I take my final breadth, a different "body of light" made of a currently unknown undiscovered, anti-matter property would lead me to my next spiritual domain. Hopefully my behavior and conduct in this materialistic world would allow me to continue to serve a higher Ideal..
 sup4man99
Joined: 3/21/2007
Msg: 61
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 4/16/2008 5:22:20 PM
What is that? I know a good deal about Hinduism, but it is such a vast body of knowledge and culture that there is so much I don't know also. Do tell.
 NewSpirit
Joined: 3/27/2007
Msg: 62
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 4/30/2008 1:35:42 AM
That's a mighty big 'if'. In reality this is a mantra that has universal acceptance but no actual proof. What we have the right to say is that all known nuclear and chemical and physical processes are conservative. But it is more than arrogant to suggest or insist that new matter cannot come into being in some ex nihilo process when, in fact, we truly don't know what matter is in the first place.

NewSpirit
 ishaun
Joined: 6/20/2008
Msg: 68
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/19/2008 2:22:51 PM
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

Matter can.

Matter can be Fused, Can be completely blown up, and transfered back into Energy (such as UV rays, Gamma Rays, etc..)

Energy can turn into matter, and matter into energy, but the energy itself is here to stay.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 69
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 10/21/2008 9:42:08 PM

Neither matter, or energy, are ever destroyed.


Matter gets destroyed all the time in particle-antiparticle anihilation, for example, electron positron anhilation results in two gamma rays. Photons have no mass.
 Mikezt
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 70
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:41:02 PM
Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing, this is what is implied by E=MC^2. Matter is to energy like ice is to water vapor.
 LeCutter
Joined: 2/25/2009
Msg: 71
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/6/2009 12:42:20 AM
Star Trek always says it best....

Lt. Cmdr. Data: I have a question, Sir.

Capt. Picard: Yes Data, what is it?

Lt. Cmdr. Data: What... is death?

Capt. Picard: Now, is that all? Oh, Data, you're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging; they believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an earth-like garden, which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness. That all of our experiences and hopes and dreams, merely a delusion.

Lt. Cmdr. Data: Which do you believe, Sir?

Capt. Picard: Considering the marvelous complexity of the universe, it's clockwork perfection, it's balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension - I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidean or other practical measuring systems, and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.
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