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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...      Home login  
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 DebraTheDeepThinker
Joined: 6/3/2006
Msg: 78
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...Page 4 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, any electrical energy that is in us, just escapes in the form of heat. It is analogous to leaving our cell phone chargers plugged in without being connected to the phone. The electrical charges just descipate into the air. Our bodies, just decompose into their basic biolgical compounds into the soil, providing nitrogen for plants to grow. The cycle of life continues, and energy just keeps being recycled. But everytime energy is transformed from type to another, a small amount of energy is lost in the process in the form of heat. Once energy is transformed into heat, it can never be used again. This forms theLaw of Entropy, the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

It is believed that the universe is moving toward a state of entropy, chaos if you will, and that the universe will eventually run out of energy. But I have always wondered if the law of entropy applies to living organisms, and if this is what really is responsible for the aging process

Our bodies, just like the universe are very highly organised systems. Like any highly organized system, it requires a constant energy input to maintain that level of organization. I wonder if every time the cells in our bodies divide, every time our mitochondria convert food to energy, if some energy is lost along the way? Perhaps when this energy is lost, it creates what are known as "free-radicals." I do not know, I am just speculating. Just a thought.
 *in*spired
Joined: 3/4/2008
Msg: 79
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 5/6/2008 12:32:07 AM
I think the whole cotton pickin' universe...even the void of space (and I don't think the void is a nothing) is recycled. Could just be me...
 ms_kysha
Joined: 7/25/2007
Msg: 80
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 6/26/2008 5:43:06 PM
According to the 1st law of Thermodynamics. Law of conservation of energy; heat gained by the system is equal to the amount of work done by the surroundings (or vice versa). Therefore, energy is simply transferred.

Although, I have read that the moon's orbit of the Earth contradicts the law of conservation of energy. As I understand it, the moon travels in a curved path due to the external force of Earth's gravitational field. Although this external force is constant, somehow as the moon moves toward the opposite side of the Earth its velocity vector is is the complete reverse.
 wraith1
Joined: 6/24/2008
Msg: 81
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 6/27/2008 10:44:39 PM
The way I see it is this...all our radio transmissions on earth are still and will always exist traveling in space, as we think electrically all our thoughts at death still exist and possibly we all have our own frequency that keeps them all together as in our individual soul/spirit. So we exist forever, nature easily makes bodies but the "I" as in you is much harder as you basically create who you are.
If we terminate at death into nothing, then we never existed, you do not know you were here and as your friends die there is no memory left of any of you ever being here.
So I believe at death you change from a breathing person to a spirit/soul and still know who you are and could be reborn to learn more on this planet or graduate to another higher planet. These are my thoughts to the question, nothing is destroyed only changed.
 Friendlione
Joined: 6/23/2006
Msg: 82
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 6/28/2008 12:40:44 AM
Death is a primitive concept. Nothing truly dies. The body simply serves a storage and interface mechanism for the essence of what you REALLY are. When the body becomes too damage due to trauma or simple wear and tear, the essence is released.

It may be that this essence, energy, or spirit can interact with higher spatial dimensions in much the same way that other forms of energy can. Perhaps when interfacing with the body, the essence cannot connect with other similar forms of energy, which is why comminication with "the dead" is rare (some say impossible).

At any rate, the energy in your mind would survive long after death since energy cannot be destroyed as your premise asserts. The real question is where did this original enrgy come from? If energy cannot be created or destroy, then where did this original fixed amount of energy come from?
 ishaun
Joined: 6/20/2008
Msg: 83
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/19/2008 2:22:51 PM
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

Matter can.

Matter can be Fused, Can be completely blown up, and transfered back into Energy (such as UV rays, Gamma Rays, etc..)

Energy can turn into matter, and matter into energy, but the energy itself is here to stay.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 84
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 10/21/2008 9:42:08 PM

Neither matter, or energy, are ever destroyed.


Matter gets destroyed all the time in particle-antiparticle anihilation, for example, electron positron anhilation results in two gamma rays. Photons have no mass.
 Mikezt
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 85
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/2/2009 8:41:02 PM
Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing, this is what is implied by E=MC^2. Matter is to energy like ice is to water vapor.
 LeCutter
Joined: 2/25/2009
Msg: 86
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/6/2009 12:42:20 AM
Star Trek always says it best....

Lt. Cmdr. Data: I have a question, Sir.

Capt. Picard: Yes Data, what is it?

Lt. Cmdr. Data: What... is death?

Capt. Picard: Now, is that all? Oh, Data, you're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging; they believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an earth-like garden, which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness. That all of our experiences and hopes and dreams, merely a delusion.

Lt. Cmdr. Data: Which do you believe, Sir?

Capt. Picard: Considering the marvelous complexity of the universe, it's clockwork perfection, it's balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension - I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidean or other practical measuring systems, and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.
 lucaspa
Joined: 5/28/2006
Msg: 87
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History
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/6/2009 7:37:08 PM
cometchc "wouldn't it mean all living things (including us) turn into some other kind of energy when they die? "

Or some other form of matter. And we do. We become food for scavengers, worms and microbes. Our proteins, DNA, starches, and fat are broken down to amino acids, nucleotides, sugars, and lipids. These are either converted to energy + carbon dioxide + water by other life forms or incorporated into the proteins, DNA, etc. of the other life form.

Any part of our body not used for food is slowly oxidized to carbon dioxide + water (+ ammonia) and this releases heat (a form of energy).
 rhodax
Joined: 6/11/2009
Msg: 88
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/6/2009 9:56:50 PM
Its energy that can neither created nor destroyed, it can only change state. Even then there is entropy - unavailability of energy. If it is unavailable, does it actually exist?
 tiki79
Joined: 12/17/2008
Msg: 89
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 7/24/2009 8:02:05 AM
matter can be destroyed, it energy that cant be created or destroyed
 supernova74
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 90
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/17/2009 8:16:59 PM
When life is conceived there is a burst of electrical energy (this has been observed under intense microscopes during fertilization of an egg). Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed wouldn't it be safe to say that we simply change states - we can never be destroyed (some would call this being eternal ;D )
 BowdenK
Joined: 11/29/2009
Msg: 91
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/17/2009 8:32:48 PM

If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...


Then I am crazy and my whole existance has been the distorted reality from the padded room of a loony bin... but hey, since my body doesn't degrade I'll eventually snap out of it.

Oh my, that means I had no beginning either... oh my... so I must be a flawed loop of ambient thought trapped in some sort of singularity anomaly.

Wait, wait... singularities are impossible! For all that is holy why would anyone pose this question????
 AtomicGogol
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 92
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History
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/17/2009 8:51:42 PM

matter can be destroyed, it energy that cant be created or destroyed


Since matter is essentially compressed energy, then it would lead to the statement 'matter = energy' and thus nothing is created or destroyed. This doesn't take into account quantum mechanics or the whole zero point energy concept.
 coveredinpaint
Joined: 7/13/2009
Msg: 93
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/18/2009 12:53:15 PM

If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, how was it created in the first place?


It is true. The reason is because matter has always existed. There was no creation of it. It was just always there.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 94
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/18/2009 3:17:47 PM

wouldn't it mean all living things (including us) turn into some other kind of energy when they die?
Yes. It's called "matter".

RE Msg: 131 by NothingLeftToBurn:
If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, how was it created in the first place?
Very good question. If you believe that everything is controlled by inanimate forces, then you have to accept that there was always a fixed amount of matter-energy in the universe, and that this was true even before there was a universe.

Of course, some people think the laws of conservation of momentum and the laws of energy were only ever "rules of thumb", that they are only the de facto argument, and can be overridden.
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 95
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If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/7/2010 4:49:55 PM
If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, how was it created in the first place?


"It is true. The reason is because matter has always existed. There was no creation of it. It was just always there"

Who or what put it there, everthing comes from somewhere.

If nothing sticks to teflon, how do they get teflon to stick to the pan? LOL Life is full of many questions, The origin is by far the biggest.
'
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 96
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/8/2010 7:09:00 AM
Of course, some people think the laws of conservation of momentum and the laws of energy were only ever "rules of thumb", that they are only the de facto argument, and can be overridden.

Those were ``rules of thumb up until about 90 years ago. Those aren't rules of thumb any longer. Through Noether's theorem or through examining the Killing vectors, it's straight forward to state exactly what is required for momentum and energy to be conserved (or not). In particular, conservation of energy doesn't hold if one cannot define a timelike Killing vector for a given metric. Since, in general, it will not be possible to define such a Killing vector in a curved spacetime, in general, one cannot define a conserved energy in a curved spacetime.

Alternatively, energy is the conserved Noether charge corresponding to invariance under time translations, so there is a rigorous definition of what conservation of energy means and one can know if it's possible to define a conserved energy. Analogously momentum is the conserved Noether charge associated with invariance under spatial translations which means that conservation of momentum s just a consequence of the lack of a preferred origin for the spatial coordinates. Angular momentum is the conserved Noether charge associated with invariance under spatial translations, which means conservation of angular momentum is a consequence of the lack of a preferred direction in space.

I am not sure whether a photon of mass can reconvert to energy If it did surely when in a wave form it is "energy" which has just been created.

It's impossible for a single photon to produce a massive particle because that would violate conservation of energy and momentum. It IS possible for a photon to scatter from a heavy nucleus or even from another photon to produce massive particles through pair production. The former case has been exploited to build gamma-ray detectors in which the gamma ray scatters from a heavy nucleus (like lead) and then converts into an electron-positron pair. The latter case has been observed in an experiment performed to show exactly that using lases. The experiment was done at SLAC and was designated E-144 if you want to google it and read about it.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 97
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/17/2010 6:53:55 AM

It is the interaction of the Gamma photon (a wave) with the laser photon (a wave) which causes the production of the electron positron pair.

Right. It's the inverse of electron-positron anihilation into two photons.

I thought that a very high frequency wave (Gamma) should have passed straight through the laser wave (lower frequency) with no effect.

Not so and the reason is straight forward. The minimum total energy required to produce the electron-positron pair is 1.022 MeV (the sum of energy of the electron and positron masses, 0.511 MeV each). The laser photons and the gamma photons have those energies (frequencies) in the reference frame of the experiment, but in some reference frame, both the photons will be gammas of at least 0.511 MeV each. The gamma would be redshifted and the laser photon blue shifted for an observer moving at some velocity relative to the lab. Merely changing frames of reference cannot change whether or not the reaction occurs.

The reason one might want to do the experiment the way it was done is the following. You need a combined energy of at least 1.022 MeV. If you use two gammas that are each at least 0.511 MeV, you're talking about gammas that are a lot more energetic than x-rays. It's not easy to create an intense source of gammas with those energies. It's not easy to even create an intense source of x-rays with 1/10th that energy, but since you need that 1.022 MeV to create the pair, you need at least one source of gamma rays. If the gamma ray energy is high enough, you can use a (relatively speaking) low energy (i.e., frequency) laser for an intense source of photons. Since you have a lot of photons, you're more likely to have a collision take place and produce an electron-positron pair. The choice of a gamma ray and laser photon is a practical constraint.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 98
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 12/27/2010 7:48:24 AM

I noticed that if I rotated the bowl back and forward by c 10 degrees I could set up a strange S shaped wave with a node in the centre.

You can analyze that by asking how the wave is generated. In this case it's by the momentum inparted to the liquid through the shearing of the liquid by the edge of the bowl.

It struck me that it is similar to orbital shells in an atom.
The orbital electron model and the wave model of electrons do not appear to be perfect (to my understanding)

I'm not sure what you mean by ``perfect.'' From nature's perspective, the wave functions are exactly what they should be. From the perspective of a person who wants to calculate a result that replicates nature's perspective, exact analytical solutions to the equations are hard to come by although one can, in principle, write down the correct equations, assuming the model is correct.

If the outside of the atom electrons were vibrating in 3 D back and forward it might produce concentric spheres instead of concentric rings.

The model to which you refer sounds like the Bohr model, which was more or less an ansatz by Bohr to explain why matter is stable and electron orbits didn't decay such that electron spiralled into the nucleus within about 1 microsecond. In a quantum mechanical picture, the electron doesn't orbit (at least not in any classical sense), nor vibrate (in any classical sense). The electron has a probability of being found at a particular point in space or with a particlular momentum. The waves in quantum mechanics are probabilities, not physical waves. However, the solutions for the hydrogen atom are well known. The electron wavefunctions for atoms in general are specified by 3 quantum numbers: a radial quantum number, n, which tells you what the probability for finding an electron at any given radius is, an angular momentum quantum number l which tells you the angular momentum of the electron, and one component of the angular momentum, m, along some arbitrary axis (usually called the z-axis). If you include the electron and nuclear spin, you have to include other quantum numbers for those and then use various schemes to couple the spin and angular momenta.

The radial wavefunctions are given by Laguerre polynomials and the angular wave functions are given by spherical harmonics. For the hydrogen atom, the lowest energy state is given by n = 1, l = 0. So, the angular momentum is zero. It must be spherically symmetric, since no angular momentum means nothing is rotating about the nucleus. (This is confirmed by experiment). Therefore, the electron cannot be localized to any particular position apart from the probability of finding it there. The lowet energy state is called the 1s in spectroscipic notation. The n=2 level can accomodate angluar momenta of 0 and 1. (The spectroscopic notation would be 2s and 2p respectively. The s and p are not to be confused with the S and P you used to describe geological waves). The 2s is also spherically symmetric because again, l=0. The electron is just more likely to be located further frm the nucleus than in the 1s state. The 2p orbital is NOT spherically symmetric. There are pictures of various spherical harmonics here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonic
 EJA58
Joined: 11/16/2010
Msg: 99
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 1/27/2011 10:21:51 PM
It is true. Everything merely changes form, or location, or both. Every lepton, proton, etc, which ever was still is. It may have changed form from being part of tree bark to being part of termite turds, etc, but it is still there. Since energy is matter and matter is energy, our mind/spirit-which is energy-also is eternal. Whether you go to a Heaven, or Hell, or Limbo, or reincarnate, or enter a parallel universe in a different dimension, etc is the big mystery for most. Don't sweat it. Live as well as you can, and enjoy the ride.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 100
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/9/2011 1:20:30 PM
The general upshot is "matter plus energy, with the appropriate conversion factor, is a constant in this universe, over infinite time", and some even quote such authors with the Killvector, that makes a Nobel-prize winner swoon.

That would be ``Killing vector,'' after Wilhelm Killing, not ``Killvector.''

So scientists who say "matter and its energy form are indestructible" ought to add, "as far as we can tell with our evidence database."

Since a conserved energy is defined by the existence of a timelike Killing vector, it's straight forward to state under what conditions energy is conserved. If the metric admits a timelike Killing vector, energy is defined to be what is conserved by that Killing vector field. In general relativity, a conserved energy cannot be defined, for the simple reason that a coordinate transformation (which has only 4 degrees of freedom) is insufficient to eliminate the time coordinate from the 10 independent components of the most general metric.

2. with saying that science makes claims over what it can, it won't make claims over what it can't. Science makes two claims here in question: matter is indestructible, and there was a big bang.

Actually, science only makes the claim that matter is indestructable to the extent that matter is described by a Poincare invariant theory. In that case, the mass is a Casimir operator of the Poincare group, so that makes the statement a tautology.

The big bang is just a consequence of general relativity. If general relativity is wrong, then you need another theory that explains everything general relativity does and in addition, something that general relativity does not explain.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 101
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 2/21/2011 7:39:03 AM

And general relativity is not a consequence of the big bang.

Right - the big bang is a consequence of general relativity. General relativity predicts either an expanding or contracting universe. Observations show the universe is expanding. If the universe is expanding, it had to be smaller in the past.

It is said that Einstein rewrote his theory of relativity overnight to add a cosmological constant actually he corrected for an oversight as the frame of reference for his test particle had no history and was static

Einsyein add the cosmological constant because general relativity predicted that the universe had to be expanding or contracting and at the time, everyone assumed the universe was static. That change the field equations from:

G_uv = 8 pi T_uv

to

G_uv + g_uv C = 8 pi T_uv

where the Einstein tensor, G_uv is given by the sum of the Ricci tensor and Ricci scalar:

G_uv == R_uv + (1/2) g_uv R

However, Einstein didn't change the theory at all. The equations with the cosmological constant are just more general than assuming the cosmological constant is zero. An analogous case is a family of straight lines with the same slope m.

y = mx

The lines,

y = mx + b all have the same slope. The one with b = 0 is the one that has a y-intercept of zero.
 R_O_U_S
Joined: 3/20/2011
Msg: 102
If it's true that matter can neither be created nor destroyed...
Posted: 4/16/2011 1:12:40 AM
No matter how far we breakdown matter something forms. I imagine the behind of the universe as a manifold frequency of expanding dimensions begging to coincide to create the big bang in a spatial flux in-between, I opine.
Building the quasar the universe is non linear gliding onitself in forms beyond the simplest form. But like a folding piece of paper of exponential growth. Froma single point. Occupying this space is darkmatter and it's compression the death of a star.
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