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 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 46
Aliens and evolutionPage 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)

you were critizing Capitialism as the reason why aliens don't visit us(and have implied that its an immoral system)


This is a digression from the topic and I apologise for that, but I feel I must address your comment to clarify why I think capitalism IS an immoral system. (My thesis is that it is only a mask for the continuation of the feudal system, which it superceded when the bankers took control of the royal purse strings in Europe many years ago and became the new "Lords")

Capitalism is a game of monopoly. Like the game, sooner or later, one player owns all (or most) of the properties. After that happens, it is no longer a free market. The best the other players can hope for is to lose as slowly as possible. They should know they have already lost, but the winner (now the banker) is willing to lend them money to keep them playing and so he game goes on...

In real life, the players are staking their real property and lives on the game, but it's the same game and always has the same result; a winner and a bunch of losers with no choice but to keep playing and borrowing on their future production for the privilege.

"Free market capitalism" is an oxymoronic term because the market is no longer free, it is controlled in a game rigged to enrich the guys who have already won. There's nothing ideological in that, it's just a simple economic fact. Most people are unaware of it because they'd be less inclined to play if they knew the truth.

I rather suspect though, that a morally advanced extraterrestrial race would be disgusted by both feudalism (which presupposes a divine right of kings and consequent hierarchy of rank in its society) and capitalism which hides behind an illusion of a free market to make people think they are free and can own property when in fact they aren't and they don't; they still work in servitude to the "lords" who really own their property through the trusts that everyone thinks is them.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 47
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 12:00:39 AM
Geeze! Nobody's commenting anymore...Did I unintentionally derail the thread, or is everybody just busy deciding between the red & blue pills?

Doncha just wish we lived on another planet, where the extremely intelligent (and morally evolved) life-forms had worked out a fair & sustainable economic system? I envision our galactic friends as an extraterrestrial society that has no losers at "Monopoly" because they're too morally evolved and compassionate to play a game based on the law of the jungle, that enslaves their brothers, sisters and (insert other sex(es) here).

Well...It's 2:00 am...I'm going for beers!...
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 12:56:06 AM
Maybe aliens have an equally "fair" system of social Darwinism, without an egalitarian society. Pull your weight or starve - no skin off my back? Consequently, they don't have an overburdened social welfare or medical system, or an excessive or unproductive population. There are all kinds of ways to be "idealistic" ;)
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 50
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 5:31:32 AM
... Or maybe the aliens are more like the Kzinti of Larry Niven fame... a culture based on conquest, slavery, and war.

And they just haven't gotten to us yet.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 51
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 9:46:22 AM

..a culture based on conquest, slavery, and war.


Hey!!...That's us!... Look out all you stinking aliens...we're coming for you!...
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 52
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 11:09:22 AM
Except that we don't actually EAT those we conquer.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 54
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 12:00:35 PM

Except that we don't actually EAT those we conquer.


Tell it to the Lobster People -- See if they believe you.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 55
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 12:37:24 PM
Sounds like something out of 'Futurama'...

"Might I suggest a nice Lobster Zoidberg..."
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 56
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/1/2009 11:32:30 PM
even bought it but JustDukky's spilled beer all over the CD and RUINED it!


Sorry!... Look, I'll give you my copy of "Shepherd Moons" as compensation. It's kinda "New Agey", but I swear to you, it's the music of the spheres.
Just quit telling people about my lack of hand/eye coordination...I've already been arrested twice for drunk drinking!

Oops, sorry...off topic!... I'm outta here till I can come up with something that at least LOOKS relevent, or until I sober up...whichever comes first.

Oh yeah...To give my post the illusion of relevence, I'd like to state that "Shepherd Moons" is the top selling CD on the planet of the Lobster People, Which indicates that they are highly evolved and also laid back enough to toss in a pot of boiling water and cooked for three minutes without noticing...Yumm!
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 59
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:39:20 AM
>>>Sounds like something out of 'Futurama'...

Haha! Thats funny- I thought it was a reference to South Park;

"Crab Peeeople- Taste like Crab, Talk like Peeeople"
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 61
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/2/2009 6:38:02 AM
I really don't see how acting in your own self-interest is something to be scorned, but again, wrong topic and wrong thread.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 63
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/2/2009 7:45:15 AM

I really don't see how acting in your own self-interest is something to be scorned, but again, wrong topic and wrong thread.


In that selfishness and compassion are feelings that probably developed as a result of evolution, they make the evolved morality of extraterrestrails germane to the thread. If & when we ever meet them, we should know in advance that they like us for our sense of taste, not because we taste good.

It is my contention that serving self-interest arose earlier in our evolution owing to the competition for resources in the struggle to survive. As we came together in groups, the people who could work cooperatively with their fellows out-bred the selfish ones because it was more efficient and the per capita production of a collective (like an extended family, or tribe) outstripped the per capita production of "selfish" individuals. Compassion for one's fellows was likely the "glue" that could bind a collection of individuals into a more productive entity that consequently would reproduce more often than the "loners."

As we gathered together into cities, and people were less likely to know or trust their neighbor, the selfishness that had been declining owing to natural selection could again take hold as the "loners" discovered they could simply take what was freely given by the compassionate "fools". In garnering more resources for themselves, they were now the ones better able to reproduce. The trust in one's fellows had to disappear (again as an evolutionary consequence) and "society" again became a collection of selfish loners, led by the ones most competent at conning the resources away from their "subjects" (or the one with the biggest club, who knew how to use it).

I feel that evolution has not stopped at this point and the "final pages of our story have yet to be written. I suspect that we will eventually see (from our intellectual evolution) that compassion & fairness are simply more productive and build caring societies based on that premise.

A good indicator of that would be whether other more advanced societies have done so. So if we meet extraterrestrials, who want to eat us, I'm probably wrong (but that's OK, we likely deserve it). If they want to greet us as friends, then my assumptions regarding evolution are probably right and we'd be the bad guys if we didn't live by a compassionate ethic.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 64
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/2/2009 7:56:43 AM
If you wish to discuss morality, I believe you should make a morality thread. Saying that in a thread discussing the evolution of aliens must include a discussion of what the morals of these aliens are really is opening an entirely unrelated can of worms.

>>>we'd be the bad guys if we didn't live by a compassionate ethic.

And I believe we would be the bad guys if we demanded each individual live not for themselves, but for others- That aliens would more respect a species that respected the individual, rather than exploited the individual in the guise of "collective rights" -but again, I'm not convinced this is an appropreiate discussion.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 65
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/2/2009 8:05:05 AM
I would agree with you that the topic merits it's own thread. So be it.



we would be the bad guys if we demanded each individual live not for themselves


You're absolutely right. Because it may be better to give than receive doesn't imply that we have the right to demand that people give.

Now...If my keyboard would just quit spinning...
 Oceanside77
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 66
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/10/2009 5:44:20 PM
Another good place to listen about alien, psychic and other esoteric topics is the Coast-to-Coast AM radio show hosted by Goerge Norry. I just thought I would mention it to you and whoever else that reads. As soon as I found it, I knew I was at home.

I am open to many possibilities and find it as virtually impossible for life not to exist somewhere else in the cosmos. Our Universe is just too big. I saw a UFO in Bigsur California (unless satellites can make 90 degrees angles). To this day, I still wonder what it was that I actually witnessed.

But, maybe there is a danger in accepting it, maybe the belief itself invites or manifests some sort of etheric extra-dementional alien parasite into our World, which would explain why the whole subject is constantly scorned and covered up by the big boys.

I think the movie Contact was one of my favorites.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 67
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/10/2009 11:23:13 PM
>>>I am open to many possibilities

Why do you say that with such pride? I find nothing positive about accepting any half-baked notion or anecdote as fact simply because you feel good believing it. Evidence should always exist before you side with a belief- being "open minded" is like being an intellectual slut, offering your mind to anyone who claims authority.

>>>Our Universe is just too big.

And yet you believe the conditions for life aren't so uncommon as to preclude any chance that we are the only life there is?

And you claim to have seen a UFO, and implied it had to be an alien- so not only are you making the leap of life itself, but are assuming that life exists to create intelligent life- after all, 99.9999999999% of all life on Earth is not at all what we would consider intelligent in a human context- but you believe that, out of the billions and billions of lifeforms, and Billions of evolutionary dead ends and deviations- that alien intelligent life is not only possible, but definite??

Its like believing that somewhere out in space, a Marshmallow just appears into existence- the chances for life to exist are incredibly unlikely- and the chances for intelligent life to exist are so intense, its completely ridiculous to assume that life is geared towards this form of existence.

>>>maybe the belief itself invites or manifests some sort of etheric extra-dementional alien parasite into our World, which would explain why the whole subject is constantly scorned and covered up by the big boys.

Beliefs do not manifest themselves. You can believe in Neon colored rain all you want, but it will be action that creates it, never belief.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 68
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History
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/11/2009 5:42:48 AM
“Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.” Calvin & Hobbes

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.” Albert Einstein

I find it rather arrogance and anthropocentric that humans could somehow be the pinnacle of intelligent life in the universe. It would be rather scary to imagine that this is as good as intelligence gets.

Loren Eiseley speculated a few decades ago, that the most viable way for carbon based organisms to traverse the vast universe is via dna or rna in comets flung to the far reaches.

Many in the science community still believe that most of Earth's water came in bombardments of comets, meteorites and asteroids, during the late heavy bombardment era.
http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3157&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

There is evidence that the building blocks of life are contained within such objects introduced to earth from afar.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/DNA-and-RNA-Came-from-Space-88016.shtml

Rapid evolutionary changes in species could be explained by subsequent introductions of new DNA and RNA.

Whether intentional, or mere random chaos, those influences are surely at work in the rest of the universe, and came from somewhere. When we manage to blow up our little blue ball of happiness, it's not hard to imagine that our evolutionary progress or digress with splatter onto some unsuspecting planet elsewhere one day.
http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3157&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 70
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/11/2009 9:37:40 AM
>>>I find it rather arrogance and anthropocentric that humans could somehow be the pinnacle of intelligent life in the universe.

As I think it is arrogant to think that there must be other intelligent life out there, solely and entirely based on the concept that we exist.

Our existence is not proof of the existence of intelligent alien life, just as the existence of life is not proof of the existence of alien life. Without proof, all you got is faith and made up statstics.

>>>It would be rather scary to imagine that this is as good as intelligence gets.

And the Universe does not exist to ease or create fears from you. Your emotional feeling towards there being only one form of intelligent life is not evidence of intelligent alien life.

>>>There is evidence that the building blocks of life are contained within such objects introduced to earth from afar.

But that simply shifts the problem of where did life come from, and what conditions are required for it- from finding it here on Earth, to finding it in space. We have not found a single answer to explain how ambiogenesis occurs- you want to cast all doubt, questions and inquiry aside because it creates doubt in your faith, and that offends you.

>>>When we manage to blow up our little blue ball of happiness, it's not hard to imagine that our evolutionary progress or digress with splatter onto some unsuspecting planet elsewhere one day.

I would be absolutely amazed and stunned that, if we were to shatter our planet and spread the peices around the universe, that life would survive on it, Such an idea has multiple unanswered questions, seen as inconvenient and unworthy of answering or even consideration;

how does it survive the explosion? I can't boil water without killing all life- how does it survive with no protection from radation, no protection from impacts, no oxygen or water to use as energy or even gravity to keep it on the rock? How does it survive the void, with no light giving energy to certain lifeforms? And, again, doesn't such a claim simply shift the problem of "life came from nothing here" to "life came from nothing there"? If all life came from planets exploding and spreading life via astriods- where did the first lifeform originate from?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 71
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History
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 6/11/2009 1:15:03 PM
It's called pondering Jiperly.

Eiseley and many others have long pondered'speculated that the building blocks of life on Earth were added after the planet cooled and enough water came on board to make an atmosphere more conducive to life. With space being around 2.725 K degrees, it is conceivable that the building blocks of life are commonly transported and stirred into the mix. The bigger questions remain. It's unlikely we will find a technology to become citizens of the stars before we use all our resources and convert much of those resources into our man made Bozone Layer, the debris field surrounding the Earth from our previous experiments. Our Bozone Layer will probably serve to protect the Universe from us.

Looking for a backup plan is worth the speculation. Even the Scientists who found the DNA and RNA building blocks on the meteorite have questions.
from previous post link...
"For some reason or another, all of us like to believe that Earth is special - after all, our planet is the only one able to sustain life that we know of. Indeed, Earth is special in its own way, but life would not have been possible without the significant contribution of material coming form space. In fact, a new study shows that the compounds making up DNA and RNA actually originated in space, not on Earth as previously thought, and were brought here by meteorite fragments and other similar objects.

"We believe early life may have adopted nucleobases from meteoritic fragments for use in genetic coding which enabled them to pass on their successful features to subsequent generations," said the leader of the study, Zita Martins of the Department of Earth Science and Engineering at Imperial College London.

In 1969, a meteorite fragment, known today as the Murchison meteorite, crashed in the Australian outback. A thorough analysis, following its discovery, showed that it contained uracil and xanthine molecules (nucleobases), which are building blocks for genetic materials made up of a heavy carbon isotope. On Earth, such molecules contain only light carbon isotopes.

However, these two molecules are just a few of many others found in the respective fragment. "There are about 70 different amino acids in the Murchison meteorite. About six or so are the same kinds of amino acids associated with life on Earth," said David Deamer from the University of California.

The uracil molecule is one of the four bases for the RNA molecule, therefore it is invaluable to life. Deamer points out that, although these molecules have been proven to originate in space, they could have been developed on Earth just as well. Nevertheless, the proportion of molecules originating only in space or only on Earth is currently unknown."
 membrane
Joined: 8/12/2008
Msg: 72
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 7/13/2009 4:18:09 PM
considering the size of the cosmos, i see the exsistance of aleans inevatable, and as to the idea of being humoniod like creaters elce where in the cosmos, i see this also to be highly probible, its called convergent evolution.. like how dolfins are simalar to sharks, but come totaly difrent branches of the evolutionary tree.. think about it, the humanoid structure is the almost perfect adaption to almost every enviroment... we walk upright, see 3rd dimentonaly, are able to manipulate or suroundings... to me, it just seem inevatable
 membrane
Joined: 8/12/2008
Msg: 74
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 7/13/2009 8:43:37 PM
good point... ive never heard of that equasion before... but it makes sence, but how long ago was the big bang? soo said science?... and what if....


well when looking back, human life, as the homo sapien is relatively new to the planet... the jump from animal to man happend soo fast, when looking at the time line of the planet... how many planets do they believe are capable of suporting life, do they only consider the ones equal distance from the sun as earth.. or do they take thicker atmopher and warm innar planet dynamics... can planet be warmer or colder within, or are then all simalar? and of those planets, wich ones do they think actually support life... i heard a theroy once that said life did not just spontaniously come to exsistance on earth... that a comet or astoriod brought basic life here, bring fungus, virus, bactreal, and single celled plant and animal life, and from that life evolved... but who knows for sure... but i allways thought if that wher soo, that it would have arrived from somewhere, evenif that planet was destoid sent peaces of itself threw the cosmos, that wouldent little rocks of life be raining down up many planets capable of suporting life, thus making the lickly hood of more life out there much higher, thus making complex life more probile.. and given enuf time, possibly intelegent life... true you say that we might be the visiter, considering how far we have come, but at the same time... couldent the chance be equal on the other side?
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 75
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 7/13/2009 10:31:54 PM
Yer just full of questions, ain't cha?

>>>ive never heard of that equasion before

The Drake Equation takes variables, like distance from the sun, age of the solar system, ect, to predict the chances of alien life in the universe, using the claim that, since the numbers are so huge, that its pretty much mandatory.

That been said, I personally oppose the Drake Equation based on the fact that all the numbers and varibles are made up- you can say that you have a 1 in 5 chance that a planet will have an atmosphere, or you can say it has a 1 in 5 Hundred Trillion chance, and neither would be closer to the truth, because we simply don't know the stats- so in reality, the Drake Equation is mental masturbation, where we invent likelihoods to reach our conclusions.

>>>but how long ago was the big bang? soo said science?

According to our observations of the Universe, the the Universe is approx. 14 Billion years old. And before you ask, Earth and our Solar System is approx 5 Billion, and life is approx 4 Billion. And if you wish to challenge these facts, by all means- but I do not believe you hold any new information that would bring doubt to the method we used to discover these facts

>>>the jump from animal to man happend soo fast, when looking at the time line of the planet...

If Life was represented on a 24 Hour clock, for the first six hours, Earth would only be inhabited by single celled organisms. In 1/10 of one second before midnight, humanity appeared on the scene.

And you wonder why I think its arrogant to assume the universe has other creatures like us when we appear to be such a hick-up on our own planet.....

>>>how many planets do they believe are capable of suporting life, do they only consider the ones equal distance from the sun as earth

Depends on who "they" are, but the fact remains that, from all our observations, we've yet to find a single planet that can besides Earth.

>>>can planet be warmer or colder within, or are then all simalar?

Nope- our solar system is an excellent example of that- Mercury has no atmosphere, and as of such the dark side is void and cold as space, while the sunny side is scorched. Venus, on the other hand, has too much atmosphere, and has created a green house effect, causing the planet to be amongst the hottest in our solar system, with acid raining from the sky- Mars doesn't have an electromagnetic shield, causing it to be blasted by solar radiation- Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune and Uranus are all too large, and any of their moons are undoubtedly blasted by radiation from these planets. It seems that every planet we discover has its own ticks- Uranus, for example, is actually on its side.

>>> evenif that planet was destoid sent peaces of itself threw the cosmos

Thats unlikely- life on Earth wouldn't survive such a journey, so I doubt alien life would equally survive, even if it could break out of our suns gravitational pull- and even then, it would coast through space for literally billions of years, with limited resources, only to burn up in some planets atmosphere- it would literally be the most perfect form of life to survive all that. The likelihood is completely off the charts.

Not to mention, again, that doesn't answer any actual questions- it merely exists to divert answers.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 76
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History
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:45:07 PM
RE Msg: 76 by Jiperly:
The Drake Equation takes variables, like distance from the sun, age of the solar system, ect, to predict the chances of alien life in the universe, using the claim that, since the numbers are so huge, that its pretty much mandatory.

That been said, I personally oppose the Drake Equation based on the fact that all the numbers and varibles are made up- you can say that you have a 1 in 5 chance that a planet will have an atmosphere, or you can say it has a 1 in 5 Hundred Trillion chance, and neither would be closer to the truth, because we simply don't know the stats- so in reality, the Drake Equation is mental masturbation, where we invent likelihoods to reach our conclusions.
Don't forget that the Drake Equation just multiplies those numbers together. You can only do that in probability, when you know that all those factors are completely independent, and are all constant, requiring uniform behaviour over time as well, for all those factors. One of those constants, the number of stars in the galaxy, has been updated now, to be an integral, divided by the age of the galaxy you are talking about, because star formation is not constant over time. But if we were trying to make a reasonable estimate, we'd have to chuck the Drake Equation out entirely, because it makes sooo many assumptions, that even our common sense tells us cannot be right, like that all stars have the same probability to form planets that have the potential to produce life.

If Life was represented on a 24 Hour clock, for the first six hours, Earth would only be inhabited by single celled organisms. In 1/10 of one second before midnight, humanity appeared on the scene.

And you wonder why I think its arrogant to assume the universe has other creatures like us when we appear to be such a hick-up on our own planet.....
Can I just say: I agree?

>>> evenif that planet was destoid sent peaces of itself threw the cosmos

Thats unlikely- life on Earth wouldn't survive such a journey, so I doubt alien life would equally survive, even if it could break out of our suns gravitational pull- and even then, it would coast through space for literally billions of years, with limited resources, only to burn up in some planets atmosphere- it would literally be the most perfect form of life to survive all that. The likelihood is completely off the charts.
If the Earth exploded, then not only would the force probably heat up the planet to an extent that nothing would survive, but that the acceleration of each part would probably crush every living thing on it to death, and the pieces would not have a Van Allen belt, so they'd be subject to killer Cosmic Radiation, and they almost certainly would have no atmosphere to speak of, so nothing could breathe. Oh, and because they'd be far from a star, and the nearest star is a few light-years away, the temperature would drop so low, that nothing would survive.

The only things that could survive that, would be species that could survive extreme heat, extreme pressure, an atmosphere, no atmosphere, unbelievable cold, and cosmic radiation. Anything that could survive all that, wouldn't even need an Earth to survive at all. They could be launched into outer space well before the planet blew up, and just travel through space on their own. So they'd have spread across the cosmos already.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 79
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History
Aliens and evolution
Posted: 7/15/2009 8:58:44 AM
RE Msg: 79 by greg14229:
In my humble opinion, i feel that we are a precocious race. I think we developed earlier than most evolutionary processes would have allowed in the time we have had. I cant remember the name of the equation, but there is another equation that estimates how much time it would take for intelligent life to form after the earth formed. Based on this, we were early. Of course that is only an estimate. But as i've said before, the first time a species from another planet pays a visit...i think that species will be us.
I'm personally not too sure of this. That would be a bit too much like claiming that the Bible is right in saying that we humans are special in the universe.

But you could be right.

However, unless we get a more efficient system of working together towards common goals that help all of humanity, then I think it's going to be a very long time until we start visiting enough other planets, that we find intelligent life on other planet.
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