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Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 63
transgender boy can use girls restroom at schoolPage 4 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
There is a difference between sex and gender and it can be rather tricky. It is something that is really now coming to the forefront within the last 20-30 years. Here is a paper I found that kind of starts working towards the difference.

The Difference Between Sex and Gender

Written by: Waltohar

In today's society sex and gender seem to have two separate connotative meanings. Sex is a more scientific term that explains physical traits and sexual preferences. Gender carries a more social tone. Meaning that it refers to the different clothing, activities, career choices, and positions people hold in society. A person's social status helps separate or classify the two sexes.

Sex is the total sum of physical characteristics that distinguish males and females from each other. The most distinctive difference in characteristics is that man and women have different reproductive organs. This is pretty obvious and so are other traits like facial hair, deep voices, and muscular builds. It is not often that you see a six foot five inch bearded lady who sounds like Barry White walking around. Women are smaller and feminine. They normally walk with a switch and speak with soft voices. These descriptions may not apply to all men and women but they are pretty good examples of what to look for if confused.

That brings me to my other definition of sex. Sex is also known as the preference of sexual partner or mate that one desires. A person's preference determines their sexual identity. There are three types of preferences. First there are heterosexual people who like people of the opposite sex. There are homosexual people who prefer partners of the same sex. And then there are bisexual people who like to have partners who are either male or female.

The environments that some people are raised in contribute to confusion about their sexual identity. Some people say that these preferences were present the day that they were born. I feel that it is one's own choice what preference they choose. No person is born straight or gay. Certain traits may get mixed up when dealing with people who like to cross dress. Those are people who like to dress like the opposite sex. Some people get sex change operations and become transsexuals. There are even people who are born with both a male organ and female organs. They are called hermaphrodites. I feel sorry for them because they didn't ask to be born with such a deformity.

Gender consists of social classifications that help determine sex. With the rapid changes in gender equality it is not as easy to separate sex by what a person does for a living. What position they hold in society or a household is not a good indication either. Years ago I could have said that if a person is a police officer, a soldier, a fireman, a politician, a lawyer, a doctor or any type of highly paid professional than that person must be a man. Back then this would have been a pretty good hypothesis. The father was the man of the house. The minister was always male and there was no such thing as women in sports.

I could have probably also said that if a person was a secretary, a grade school teacher, a receptionist, a nurse, a maid, or a homemaker then that person must be a woman. People in the female group or gender worked lower paying less demanding jobs because It was believed that a woman could not handle the pressures that a "man's job' required.

With the absence of the father figure in many American homes women have taken over as head of the house. They juggle home life and work to keep their families together so that they can properly raise their children.

Women have broken the gender barrier in almost every sport except for football and hockey. Some women's sports are pretty interesting to watch. I like to look at women's track, basketball, and boxing every now and then. Women have proven themselves as good athletes.

I notice that women have gained prominent positions in society. Women like Rosa Parks and Hilary Clinton are highly respected figures. There are women in almost every professional field. There are women politicians, lawyers, doctors, ministers, etc.

Gender is a tricky term to define. I think that gender should be left up to people to interpret for themselves. The term gender is a little sexist because it associates sex with social status. As for me I think that gender is a little out dated. Sex is a sufficient enough classification to separate men, women, and the people who are confused about what they are.
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 64
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transgender boy can use girls restroom at school
Posted: 7/16/2008 7:13:57 AM
RE msg 68 by o76923:
Ummm, if we ever got on that kind of slippery slope, the community would be forced to respond by accepting transgender and creating all unisex bathrooms. I'm pretty sure that's what my side wanted in the first place. So go ahead and start on the slippery slope.
Considered that option. First, all toilets would have to unisex. But that wouldn't be enough, because boys and girls would still have to share the communal area in front of the toilet. So all toilets would have to become unisex self-enclosed toilets that only accommodated one person at a time.

Second, that would have to apply to all such situations. So showers would have to unisex too. So would changing rooms. There is no way that parents would allow their teenage daughters to share showers with teenage boys. So all showers would have to become completely enclosed rooms that only allowed one person at a time. Same for changing rooms.

Now, there are 2 problems with this. 2 such toilets would take up the space of a communal toilet that could seat at least 5. So you'd need a LOT more space to provide enough toilets. Second, it would be much more expensive. That's why toilets and bathing areas were made communal in the first place. It saves on room, resources and money. Our public schools are already woefully short of money. If they are going to have to implement this, then they won't have the money to provide school equipment, and many extra-curricular activities. Forget football, soccer, basketball, netball, cheerleading, school books, and much else.

And the teacher would say: no you aren't. If you said you were an adult, the teacher wouldn't just say ok and let you skip class. If you said you were the principal, she wouldn't start teaching the way you tell her to. Believe it or not, there is more to being transgendered than just trying to be difficult. It's also far more than just saying it once.
There is a clinical test that determines if you are an adult or not: your age, which is a matter of public record. There is a similar clinical test for if you are the principal: the principal of each school is a matter of public record. So if a teacher told you that you're not an adult or the principal, and you took it to court, you'd lose without question. But unless there is a clinical test of whether you are transgender or not, it's down to you if you are transgender, and he cannot argue that you are not, because he is not you, and has no clinical way of proving you are not. So if it was taken to court, the court would have to side with the student, damages would be awarded, and that would set a precedent. So future cases would follow the precedent. Schools would then be forced to demand that their teachers let these kids in, simply to avoid the costs of a lawsuit. Other lawsuits have forced school rules to change to things that make no sense either. But without a clinical test for transgender, there would be no other way to address the issue.

I'll admit I've never been in a women's room. However, I'm pretty certain that there are stalls. If there aren't stalls, then I'm pretty sure they would attempt to hide or conceal themselves. I'm also pretty sure that boys aren't completely invisible and girls would stop having the wild orgies you are imagining if a boy walked in.
1) Boys climb on top of the toilet seat all the time, and peer over at their mates and other boys, just to throw things, and have a laugh. Boys would have no compunction at doing that to girls, and they do, when a girl accidentally goes in the boys' toilet when its empty and other boys come in afterwards. It does happen.
2) Girls don't have wild orgies in the toilets. But they are in a slight state of undress, often bra and panties, and more if they peer under or over the partitions. Teenage boys seem keen on bragging to their friends, and often exaggerate what happened with a girl, often saying they slept with her when all they did was kiss. So teenage boys would be inclined to lie.
3) Teenage boys tease each other constantly, and look for ways to humiliate each other. If a teenage boy is in a situation where he COULD have seen a girl naked, and says he didn't, often his friends will say he's gay. When that happens, it's a constant easy source of fun for these boys. One label, once, and you never hear the end of it. Often some of these boys tell the girls. Then the girls don't want to be seen dating a boy who isn't desirable, as a straight, red-blooded male, so often the girls won't touch him with a bargepole. Sometimes this leads to cruel messages put on the blackboard, and sometimes it does lead to bullying and even violent beatings. So there is a tremendous pressure on boys, both from his male peers and female, not to be seen as gay when they aren't, because they won't have any protection from the school or the police, so there is an incredibly pressure on boys to do what their friends believe that a straight, red-blooded male would do under the circumstances. So even if they didn't even want to look at the girls out of respect, there is an unbelievable amount of pressure to claim they did, and even to do so, just to back up their claim.

When was the last time high schoolers copied elementary schoolers?
Are you kidding? All the time. Guess where I learned about getting drunk from? My younger brother, because him and his friends were left alone in the room with the liquor cabinet, because the adults believed they were too young to break into it. They figured out how to break in. So me and my friends now knew how to break into liquor cabinets. Elementary schoolers learn to do stuff because they aren't watched as much, and high schoolers then hear about it, and do it too, when it'll work for them.

Do you really think that any school in the country would be stupid enough to believe that sort of argument? Do you honestly believe they would take a high schooler who is anatomically male without support from parents, doctors, psychologists, or some other form of evidence?
Unless there is a clinical trial for these transgender, they have no choice. It's a right to claim that you are transgender. Even if you said you were straight the day before, people are so confused about their sexuality at young ages that it's perfectly acceptable to go through a phase of being transgender, even for one day, or to flick back and forth for years. The only way to stop that would be to demand that all kids have to prove they are transgender before they can act as one. If that was true, then you'd have to prove you were gay before being allowed the rights of gay people. I believe that most people would be highly affronted by having to prove their sexual identity, to anyone, and that it would be a violation of their human rights.

I'm fairly certain that when high school showers are used (which I would guess is pretty infrequent anyway) there are a few other things going on. Generally, I'm guessing that it is for a team-related event and only the team is allowed in the locker room. I'm not currently aware of a high school sports league that openly accepts transgender students on the team that doesn't match their anatomical sex. I know plenty will allow females to bleed into male teams if their aren't enough people interested. Some even mandate co-ed teams under Title IX, but you seem to be implying a group of boys would just go in to watch.
In my school, and in gyms and other places I've been in, anyone can go into the locker room who can enter the building. Same for the showers. We had to use the showers every time we did gym, which was at least once a week, and for those students who used the gym facilities, every day. There really isn't any level of enforcement in the locker rooms or the showers that I've seen. The only exception is when a specific event is going on, such as a competitive match with another school, and the coach wants to speak to the team in private. But that's maybe 1 match, a couple of hours, in a week, and many weeks there will be no such game, or the game is played at another school. Most of the time the locker room is free. So the whole issue of mixed games doesn't come into it. Maybe your country is different? Do you guys not shower very often?

On an unrelated note, I'm fairly certain that porn-style lathering up isn't what happens in high school showers.
Teenage boys sometimes get turned on just by looking at a wall. It's not what YOU think is happening that's important. It's what teenage boys thinks is happening that's important, and to a teenage boy, a harmless shower IS porn. Just look at the film Porkys. The boys in the film are protrayed as going ga-ga over seeing into the girls' shower rooms. Yet they really don't see any form of activity that is either porn-like, or that you wouldn't see in any shower room, even in a boys shower room. Yet when it came out, every teenage boy was raving about it as if it was Debbie Does Dallas. Teenage boys' minds exaggerate naked girls in showers, far beyond what the reality is.

I'm also going to assume you lack the basic understanding of group mentality.
I seen a LOT happen in group mentality, particularly in children. They just don't think about things too deeply. All you need is 2 kids to start pushing each other on the playground, and within seconds, everyone is crowding round, shouting "Fight! Fight! Fight!" But no-one is stopping the fight. All it takes is one kid pushing another smaller kid, and all his friends will join in, punching, kicking. They don't even hear the kid's cries and pleas to stop half the time. It is real easy for violence to happen with kids. Of all kinds. I even know of a few rapes that resulted from groups of teenage kids. Some from decriptions of what happened to women as girls, some from guys who told me that they got in these rapes as kids. Most times, the mob takes over, and the kids are caught up in it. Sometimes, the kids are afraid to say no to raping the girl, because they cannot afford to have a witness who isn't equally as culpable. If you know about it, you have to get in there too, so you'll be afraid of revealing the truth and so you keep your mouth shut.

I'm further forced to assume that you believe that everyone is completely oblivious.
They aren't. But few people are willing to take on 10 kids, who are likely to all turn on you, to stop them going to jail. People walk on, these days, and don't report it all that often. I know people who've stopped rapes from happening. One guy was walking along the main road, and some girl was being dragged by a guy into an alley. He started asking what was going on, and the guy told him to get lost, that it was none of his business. He persisted, and fortunately, the guy walked away. He spoke to the girl and she couldn't even speak English. She had little or no idea what was going on. During this time, quite a few people were walking past, and many people were driving past. None stopped. I've even seen one fight of 10 kids on one boy on a main road, which was witnessed by at least 50 people. None of them stepped in to interfere. All that happened was that someone called the police, and they came half an hour later, after the boys had finished. This was well over 10 years ago, when teenage violence wasn't anywhere near as common as it is today, and nor was teenage sex. It's worse now.

Beyond that, I'm going to take for granted that males in your world are all just socially repressed rapists.
Most aren't. But enough are. I've spoken to guys about it. They've told me what they did 10 years earlier. They never thought it was wrong until many years later. Other guys have told me about how their friends have spoken to them. Some guy at a friend's university was planning and organising a rape. Guys in their 20s have offered to give me rohipnol. They weren't pushing me to buy it. They all used it.

I'm going to assume that you've never looked at any research on the topic and believe that all psychologists are hacks.
I am currently going through a course of CBT, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, so I do think some psychologists are very good. I have seen some research on the subject. One study on statistics on violent rape show 2 main groups who commit rape:
1) Young men who hang around in gangs, and get into trouble, with the police, in general violence, stealing and destruction. Most of these young men grow out of it, and it was just a phase they went through.
2) Men who commit rape right through their lives. Your classic serial rapist.
The statistics seemed to say that the majority of these rapes were from these young men, not the serial rapists.

In addition, I was just looking up the statistics and facts on gang rape recently. I found articles where the police said that it is an hidden phenomenon. Most people believe that teenage boys don't do this sort of thing, especially boys brought up in a nice home. So people believe the boys are innocent and they are rarely convicted. The boys themselves don't believe they have raped the girl. They believe "she wanted it". If more than one guy was involved they believe she was a slag, and that she wanted all the boys. Once it's happened, the boys all call her a slag, and other guys will be rough with her if she says no, because "she's a slag, and she wants it, so she's just playing hard to get". 40% of teenage girls state they've been coerced into sex. That's not that they've been persuaded into it. That's when they've been pushed into it because of violence of threats of violence. In our society, "no means no" still needs to be enforced, especially amongst teenage boys. It's a massive problem that is being ignored.

Once we take all of those for granted (which require more leaps in logic than I can honestly fathom) there is still the underlying problem with this argument. You are attempting to use the image of gang-rape in an effort to attack everyone who is transgender. The type of bigotry here is unconscionable. This sort of fear mongering not only is an overused tactic by anyone attacking those they don't understand, but it's actually contrary to all evidence. A transgender individual is significantly more likely to be raped (and subsequently murdered) than anyone heteronormative. Some studies have shown the rapes of transgender individuals as high as 59%.
That's 59%. 2 out of 3. But 1 in 4 women report that they've been raped or sexually assaulted anyway. For equivalent numbers, you'd need 100 million transgenders in the USA alone.

I'm not trying to scare anyone into suggesting that we rape transgenders. Far from it. I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

What I AM suggesting, is that you cannot expect to provide one rule for boys and another for transgenders, that boys would find incomprehensible.

Personally, I would suggest that transgenders use the toilets provided for the staff, and that the subject of transgender and sexual identity is addressed in an open forum, where students can express themselves openly without fear of censorship, where bigotry through ignorance and lack of understanding can be brought to light, and can be addressed and answered, so that these boys can understand what it's like to be transgender and what it means, for the transgenders and for the boys. I've been in such groups many times. What I found was that boys and girls spoke their minds, listened to other's opinions and views, and subsequently did a U-turn on previous prejudices, often becoming good friends with people they previously bullied. But they only did this when they were given freedom of speech by the group. This never seemed to happen when they were being "spoken to", because they didn't get the freedom to be honest, so they never engaged themselves in the topic, and they never really listened to what was said, or thought about it more than at surface level. If people don't get a chance to say what they think without fear of punishment, they switch off. But when they get a chance to say what they think, and to ask questions, they get involved, and they learn.

Kids often learn far more tolerance of others than adults do, when they are given tolerance to express themselves honestly.

So these underage girls could easily think that it's OK to get undressed with the lights on, and windows open, even if a 45-year-old paedophile is watching them.
In order for this ludicrous assumption to be true, you have to take for granted that girls will lose all notions of morality and decency because a boy is near them in the bathroom. Last I checked moral integrity is not an all or nothing deal. One individual item of a moral set can be removed without irreparably destroying all morals. For example, when someone turns 21 it is no longer "wrong" for them to drink alcohol. Most people who turn 21 still understand that murder, larceny, and rape are wrong. One element was removed from their moral code, yet they still have the rest of them intact.
Most people who turn 17 know that it's legal to drive, still know that murder is wrong, but still race each other at high speeds, dangerous to pedestrians and especially children who often walk into a road without thinking. A lot of kids die this way. That's why the speed limit on most roads in the UK is 30mph, and most roads above 30mph are clearly roads that are protected from pedestrians. Nevertheless, lots of 17-year-olds still drive dangerously. They follow the thrill.

Teenage girls DO get used to getting undressed in front of guys. I should know. I have to turn away from them, and had to even when I was a teenager. I can also tell you that teenage girls DO get a thrill out of knowing they can turn a guy on, and will ham it up very often. They will even put themselves into danger to get this thrill.

Also, you are trying to create a false link between pedophilia and the transgender movement. I'm not even going to go into probability here beyond saying that you are some sort of loathsome individual for stooping to that level.
You're not reading what I wrote. NEVER did I say that transgenders are paedophiles, or encourage paedophilia. What I said was that THIS practise is likely to cause problems. I say this because I've seen problems like this happen. Not this precise problem, because at the schools and colleges I've attended, they've basically pushed transgenders and other unusual characters out, to avoid the whole discussion. I've had friends who were told to leave colleges because they were epileptics and they didn't want the students witnessing a fit in the main buildings. I want this subject addressed properly, because many schools will just not want the hassle. Either they will be inclined to find excuses to refuse admission to transgenders, or they will be inclined to overlook the whole issue of teenage rape, which already happens at lots of schools. But they'll all be PC. They'll all SAY they address the issues of transgenders and rape. They'll put on a good show when reporters are inspectors are present. The rest of the time, they'll ignore it.

My high school had a lot of problems, and a lot of bigotry. But they never dug their heads in the sand. Other colleges I've attended since have.

That is in fact the only thing you are doing. If you had even the most basic understanding of what it was like to be transgender, you would never make statements like you are. With your posts here I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you were in fact that grandfather.
I'm not transgender. I don't know what it would be like. I can say that I'm attracted to both men and women, that I talk easier to women than men, that I I get on far better with women than men, that most of my close friends over the past 20 years have been women, that for many years I felt more like a woman than a man, that I consider my genitals are unnecessary and frankly unnatural appendages, that I HAVE considered having transgender surgery, and that I currently classify myself as a person in a man's body, but with no specific gender, with some emotions and thoughts that are masculine, and some feminine, but neither masculinity or femininity is dominant. If I WAS my own grandfather, that would make a lot more sense to me. It explains why MY sexual identity is so fluid.

What you DON'T understand, is that I'm not saying that transgenders are dangerous. Ignorance is dangerous. Doing things that others will perceive in ways that can lead to dangerous consequences IS dangerous.

I cannot even admit to being attracted to any men in the company of my own friends without it making things extremely uncomfortable, even if I'm not attracted to them. When I told straight men, they started getting all defensive. When I told women, they started thinking I was homosexual, or "greedy". When I told bisexual men, they hit on me. It's taken a LONG time to admit this on POF. Even then, I rarely admit to it IRL, because it causes so many problems. I still worry about how it's affected my dating chances on POF. I'm sure it's put a lot of women off.

So I'd rather have the issue addressed properly: to address what good can come out of it, and how we can encourage that, and what bad can come out of it, and what bad can come out of that.

Come to think of it, why cannot the school just install a 3rd unisex toilet, and let the boy use that? They can say that other boys and girls can use it too. But most boys and girls will use the boys toilets and the girls toilets anyway, from what I've seen. That also allows those kids with other problems, such as body dismorphic disorder, or who have disfigurements, to go to the toilet in peace.

But why force the school to have unisex toilets for everyone, just to suit the needs of the few, out of convenience? Why not think a little bit more creatively about the problem, and come up with a more effective solution? What even happened to using your brain? Isn't that what kids go to these schools for, to learn to use their brain? How can kids be expected to learn in schools, when the administration that runs those schools cannot even think about these sorts of things and come up with practical solutions that others can?

Also, why do you assume that anyone who doesn't immediately say how wonderful transgenders are, are bigots? Do you have a persecution complex?
 Green Sangha
Joined: 3/12/2008
Msg: 66
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transgender boy can use girls restroom at school
Posted: 7/16/2008 8:19:38 PM
How ridiculous the last comment above is...not physically possible. More importantly, being transgender isn't frivolous as your comment makes it seem. They aren't casually trying on a gender, it is about identity, which is more complex perhaps than you can comprehend.
Joined: 1/18/2013
Msg: 68
transgender boy can use girls restroom at school
Posted: 2/28/2013 3:11:40 PM




Joined: 1/18/2013
Msg: 69
transgender boy can use girls restroom at school
Posted: 2/28/2013 3:15:08 PM









Joined: 1/18/2013
Msg: 70
transgender boy can use girls restroom at school
Posted: 2/28/2013 3:43:27 PM





Joined: 11/16/2015
Msg: 71
transgender boy can use girls restroom at school
Posted: 9/22/2016 12:59:58 PM
What calmed me down before I started writing this reply is that this op was written in 2008. I was younger than 10 years old when I KNEW I was a boy. So you can throw that crap that you wrote right in the garbage can. Some children know before they can talk, some kids know at 8 or 9 some at 13, 16, 18, 20, 30, 45......EVERYONE is different.

"As if it matters at all". Trust me, when YOU are in it, IT MATTERS. When your child is "IN IT". IT MATTERS.

You go on to show what kind of arrogant, insensitive, and purely evil human being you are by writing: "If the student is a male in body, then he can stay out of the girls room. If he isn't happy with that, he can wear Depends and keep everyone happy".

You are talking about a 10 year old child. Once again anger breeds anger, and I need to reel it in. I am controlling myself here.

This is a new day and age. We are now in 2016. Throughout , say the 1990's and 2000's we have been told to encourage our children to speak up. Tell us anything and everything. If there is something bothering you, you can always talk to me.

Well, NOW THEY ARE! Back when I was growing up in the 1970's you NEVER revealed that you were different in ANY way.
Imagine living YOUR life not being able to love who you want, how you want? Not being able to tell anyone, not being able to "look" longer at someone for fear of being found out.....Cannot hold hands, kiss or show ANY emotion, or display of ANYTHING?

NO. YOU don't know what that is like, because if you did you wouldn't sound like the unsympathetic horses ass you present yourself to sound like.

Gay people and Transgender people have been around longer than you or I have been alive.
The solution for situations like this is 1. Therapy for the 10 year old child. This way they can be diagnosed properly with Gender Dysphoria. 2. STALLS in all locker rooms/bathrooms. PERIOD. FIXED. DONE DEAL.
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