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 AUTHOR
 *mae* flowers
Joined: 1/15/2006
Msg: 90
Men over 50 wanting childrenPage 3 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

cant blame them for that really but paying child support while drawing retirement is not something i want to risk personally.



...Oh geez, that struck me funny. Personally, I love kids, and the fact that I can hug em and kiss them....than give em back to their parents haha


...maeflowers
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 91
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 2/23/2008 3:48:27 PM

When my toddlers were at grandma's they seemed to have all their accidents there (whew, not on my watch I used to sigh). She asked me why, I said, my hand was just quicker to put a hand between a table corner and a stumbling baby, simple as that, that plain old speed of movement..... She had difficulty reading the fine print on medications, her hearing acuity had changed to hear the different tones in a cry. To hearing the difference in sound between the different needs being expressed.
We didn't have any accidents at all at my grandmother's flat. She never needed to put a hand between a table corner and us, because she had the same problem, so all her tables had rounded corners, to prevent accidents to everyone. She never had any problem reading medications. She just put her glasses on. She could hear our tones fine, even with a hearing aid.

Come to think of it, I only started seeing tables with sharp corners in the last 30 years, and all of them are new. I keep getting nasty cuts on my tables all the time, and I'm only 38. But it's also a newish table from Ikea. Perhaps we are forgetting the obvious lessons of child-rearing, and building tables that are just not good for people?

Men between 36 and 57 had the most DNA damage; men between 20 and 35 had much less DNA damage.
This is a good reason that young men should donate to a sperm bank. It doesn't make them better fathers. Nor does it guarantee that this is true of all men. After all, there are plenty of characteristics of people who are are more likely to be bad drivers. But we let them drive. Why be so down on men in their 50s who want to have a child? Would you rather that some children didn't exist?

In the 20s, American scientists proposed to sterilise the poor and disabled, and this is where Hitler based his ideas. The last I want to do is to start telling a man that he cannot have kids because someone thinks he's too old. Meet him. Then decide on a case-by-case basis. But that means effort, and who wants to make effort?

As one poster also mentioned there is the financial factor as well. A man of 50 is virtually unemployable unless he is a professional or in a niche market for his skills. Even 40 is virtually seen as the end of the hiring age limit. There are a lot of pension years where that child is simply not going to get the financial advantages that provide education and life opportunities. The standard 50 year old has already been gutted financially by divorce at least once or more. He is projecting a life of poverty and an enforced sedentary lifestyle devoid of fun and shared activity onto others.
This was true for the 80s and 90s. But now, people are having to work longer and longer. In addition, the continuation of adolescent behaviour into adulthood has meant that many employers don't even consider a man for work until 21 at the earliest. Plus, with university degrees, a man can be in his late 20s before he has started work, and then he has $50,000-$100,000 of loans to pay off. On top, younger men were preferred in the 80s and 90s, when hardly any young men were immigrating from abroad. But now, there are young men from abroad who work harder and longer than their counterparts, for less wages, and who are much higher skilled than their counterparts. So it really sucks for a lot of young men to be looking for work nowadays. The older generation are still valued, because they have often worked long enough that they have the experience to bring that even the immigrants don't have, and they are still valued for that. Things are still changing that way, because a lot of opinion is built on studies and right now studies are geared towards young men. But businesses are finding less and less value in young men, and more and more value in older men.

Be serious how many 50 year olds are up for a game of cricket at the park, how many 60 year olds?
Men who didn't grow up with TV, modern food, and the sedentary lifestyle, and always worked hard? Loads. Men who grew up with the sedentary lifestyle? By 35, they don't move off the couch. Some men don't have the energy by 25.

funny one cocytus ..but i think what the poster meant was that the over all rate of child birth was down ..so if this trend continues the country will have to import there work force and thats not good for the future of any country ..the existing system in place to school ,or train and bring them up American wont have the children to work with..
Already happening, valleyjavastop. It appears that the one group who are having loads of kids are the Muslims. Expect that in the future, you will have a Muslim President who is the son of immigrants.
 idahosun
Joined: 4/26/2006
Msg: 92
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 2/23/2008 6:31:44 PM
"White male reproduction rates have dropped, and in the US this is a serious risk to the future of the country. Congratulations to the Mormons on that score. "
Goodness, we seem to have a (well I'll let you fill in the blank) amongst us-worried about white male production, sounds a wee bit racist to me, but that's jmo. Not only are people over 50 who want to add more people to this overly-poulated planet selfish, they are foolish if they think they have what it takes to keep up with young children and also be there for them later. My parents were older and it was anything but a pleasant childhood because they were old, set in their ways, tired and that is not fair to a child, my mother died just as we were becoming "friends". We should all be trying to find ways to decrease the population, not add to it. Does anyone read the statistics on how much the world's population has doubled and doubled and doubled and we are running out of land, air, and ruining so much of our environment because there are too many people already. Zero Population Growth is the answer.
 idahosun
Joined: 4/26/2006
Msg: 96
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 3/23/2008 2:56:11 AM
"... would say that it is the women who are more interested in a flashy career and $$$ than to do the toughest job a woman ever loved : being a mother , they are the truly selfish ones.

Our planet is not over crowded , the popultion is in decline . Why do you care more about a planet than producing human life ? Who is this planet for? To be worshipped? To be more important than humanity? You must be a radical environmentalist..."

First of all the topic is men over 50 wanting children, which is selfish nonsense, they will never be around to raise them and if they are, they won't be in any condition to chase after them, and you seem to think it is strictly the woman's job to raise the child, sorry, that's a 1950's concept sweets, men are supposed to be just as involved in child rearing as women, it is 2008, you must be a radical sexist.
"Our planet is not overcrowded and the population is in decline", now that IS stupidest remark I do believe I have EVER read on here. Suggests needing a whole lot of research, the earth's population is growing so fast, we are burning/slashing the very parts of the environment that clean our oxygen, primarily the rain forests in S. America and in Asia. The Brazilian rainforest supplied 20% of the earth's oxygen at one time but it is being slashed and burned so fast to accomodate too much population. A radical environmentalist, hell yes, and proud of it, I, at least, want to preserve this planet so that future generations will have a place to live that is a viable environment, because without a viable environment there will be no food, there will be floods, dust bowls, all of the things we see coming to pass as global warming escalates and that is one of the many reasons I care about trying to preserve what used to be our beautiful home but it quickly becoming an inhospitable place because there are too many people for the planet to support! Get yourself some much needed education on the subject, it is attitudes such as yours that will leave our grandchildren without a planet to live on.
 rdcnorm
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 102
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 3/26/2008 5:37:00 PM
OP,
I for one would be willing to have a child at fifty, That would only happen if I were involved with a woman around 35 +/_ However that is unlikely going to happen, unless she is one exceptional woman.. because I'm not really interested in someone 15 yrs younger that me.. That said, I'm a widowed dad at 50 with a eight year old,, my preference would be a woman in he mid Forties with a child around my sons age,, therefor I wouldn't mind having another child,, You did not specify the child was a new born baby,,

As for the subject of death,,, we are all going to die,, at any age children may become motherless or fatherless,, we just don't know when or how,, Life is worth living at any age,, That does not mean, being irresponsible with the life of another human,, man, woman or child,, What it means to mean is this, after adopting my son,, my only child,, I have learned I have been given a most wonderful gift ,, that is my love for my son, among other thing,, yet the gifts I receive are just as plentiful as well,, so why not share in that happiness, That could be with woman who already has children, or someone younger who may want to have children,,
Just my opinion..
 idahosun
Joined: 4/26/2006
Msg: 103
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 3/26/2008 6:49:41 PM

Population projections from the 1900s to 2050
The United Nations states that:

Almost all growth will take place in the less developed regions, where today’s 5.3 billion population of underdeveloped countries is expected to increase to 7.8 billion in 2050. By contrast, the population of the more developed regions will remain mostly unchanged, at 1.2 billion. The world's population is expected to rise by 40% to 9.1 billion.
World population is currently growing by approximately 75 million people per year. Net growth by mid-century is predicted by the United Nations to be 34 million per year in contrast to the roughly 76 million per year that was seen from 2000 to 2005.
In 2000-2005, fertility at the world level stood at 2.65 children per woman, about half the level it had in 1950-1955 (5 children per woman). In the medium variant, global fertility is projected to decline further to 2.05 children per woman.
During 2005-2050, nine countries are expected to account for half of the world’s projected population increase: India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Bangladesh, Uganda, United States of America, Ethiopia, and China, listed according to the size of their contribution to population growth.
Global life expectancy at birth, which is estimated to have risen from 46 years in 1950-1955 to 65 years in 2000-2005, is expected to keep rising to reach 75 years in 2045-2050. In the more developed regions, the projected increase is from 75 years today to 82 years by mid-century. Among the least developed countries, where life expectancy today is just under 50 years, it is expected to be 66 years in 2045-2050. "
Wikipedia- Overpopulation
As you see, the developed countries are the ones where educated people are beginning to realize the planet cannot sustain uncontrolled growth rates and women do not belong pregnant and barefoot, despite your wish to the contrary. The underdeveloped countries where there is little education about overpopulation and people hold views similar to yours is where the problem lies and where the earth is being scorched, slashed and ruined forever. I see a prime example everyday - ID has some of the most productive farmland in the world, but it is being paved and covered with enormous energy, resource- draining homes that are too big for the three to four people in them. Who will feed all of these people once the land is ruined forever, have you ever asked yourself that question or do you just think food magically appears in the grocery store- just snap your fingers and there it is, duh. Here are the facts bubba:
1900
Africa - 133 million
Asia - 946 million
Europe - 408 million
Latin America & Caribbean - 74 million
Northern America - 82 million
2050
Africa - 1.9 billion
Asia - 5.2 billion
Europe - 664 million
Latin America & Caribbean - 769 million
Northern America - 445 million
But back to the topic, I am sure there are men over 50 and some women who are younger who do fall in love and want a child and so they have one. But they are not really thinking of the consequences to the child i.e. the father will be gone while the child is young, I come from such parents, I know! It is selfish and foolish and then there are the types who marry Donald Trump and up the ante on the pre-nup by delivering a big ego boost - the fact that he won't know his father for long seems lost because they somehow equate having a ton of money to being the same as having an energetic, involved and loving father, it is not.
 idahosun
Joined: 4/26/2006
Msg: 105
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 3/26/2008 11:09:48 PM

The global pop. is in decline and there is no "global warming" as depicted by the establishment in the MSM , educational institutions etc etc
Oh for gawd's sake, just keep your head in that sand hole --but one of these days you'll have to take a look around and what you find will be alarming. Did you happen to see the latest ice shelf the size of Manhattan that broke from the Antartic this week - oh but that's just everyone's imagination being colored by MEN who rule. I suggest you take a look at the satelite imagery of the polar ice caps and the amount of shrinkage in the last five years...might just open that closed mind and shut that open mouth with the foot inserted....
 idahosun
Joined: 4/26/2006
Msg: 106
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 3/26/2008 11:19:12 PM
oops forgot...
Why do you care more about a planet than producing human life ? Who is this planet for? To be worshipped? To be more important than humanity?[
Well this is such a no-brainer but since you asked, I care more about the planet because it is where all that human life has to live- the one and only place! and we are polluting and ruining it more and more every day, couldn't be much more simple than that...there will be no place for my grandchild, his children etc. since I don't believe we will be inhabiting the moon or mars anytime soon. So, that is just one more reason I am opposed to people over 50 having more children and people everywhere having too many children, our planet cannot sustain too many people.
 rdcnorm
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 107
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:18:26 PM
Wow..then why don't men and woman, over 57 just put a gun to their head,, because then the governments, who use money to subsides their income,health care,housing., senior citizen homes, etc etc... why don't we just kill every one that does not fit into society. mentality disabled, all prison inmate, ass holes, non god fearing people, What a reduction to the population that would be, Then all funds could be better spent on how to save our planet.. just a thought,, any takers............

Do I believe that, No,, but that would solve some of idahossun issues and concerns.....
 Happily Ever...maybe
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 116
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 5/6/2008 11:58:30 AM
I haven't quite reached 50 yet (I'll be 47 this summer), but I can at least give you my reasons why I still would like to have a child or two, if I could find the right woman. I got my GF pregnant when I was 20 (we won't get into all the specifics; it was a bad situation, but it takes two to tango) and I tried to do what I thought was the best thing and got married. We welcomed a baby boy a few months later, and I did my best to make things work, for my son's sake. But of course that sort of thing rarely works, and when he was 9 months old we split up and subsequently got divorced. I was always a part of my son's life of course and saw him as often as I could, but I missed out on so much of the experience of being a father just because I didn't get to see him every day. He will be 26 later this year and lives in a different part of the country, so I still don't get to see him much, unfortunately.

So yes, I would love the opportunity to be a full time dad for the long haul, even if that means he/she will be graduating college as I approach 70. I'm in a much better place in all aspects of my life to be able to be a good father than I was when I was 21. But what I know is most important is that it has to be with the right woman, as finding a true love obviously comes first. I'm at the point in my life where I realize that particular ship may have sailed, and I may not get the chance to be a parent again, and I've come to terms with it. But I'm one to never say never, so if I met a lady who loved me and we both shared that dream, then yes, I'd sign on again for diaper detail, treating skinned knees and seeing the world thru the wonder of my child's eyes.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 118
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 5/8/2008 9:35:41 AM
This isn't really a profound societal problem; there aren't large numbers of children abandoned by their over-50 fathers or divorced wives of same pleading for child support payments. Marriages between older men and women of child-bearing age are much more stable than those of couples in their twenties. The mature man is much less likely to "fool around" than men under 40, and usually makes a more devoted husband and father.
 rdcnorm
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 122
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 5/8/2008 1:08:35 PM

well by the time the kid is grown the dad will look like the Crypt keeper

I never realized looks had anything to do with being a good dad at any age,, nor did I know that loving a child at any age had anything to do with looks...
 navywave
Joined: 1/30/2008
Msg: 125
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 5/12/2008 6:50:24 PM
It's called a mid-life crisis They just want to prove they are as good at 50 as they were at 30!
 Soorare
Joined: 5/3/2008
Msg: 127
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well, I'd say that is a little strong>>>
Posted: 5/21/2008 4:53:36 PM
Seeign how I took over Eddie Shores ' record for 'fast league suspensions",I can express strong opinions myself!

OK, I just turned 52, & for the first time in my life, the hammer drum beat to have a child has sounded.

In the past, I have faced economic & job challenges, which precluded the attempt. My ex had a history of miscarriages, & after two we – just stopped trying, Then the marriage ‘miscarried.’ & yes, I raised her child.

Now that those hurdles are surmounted, I feel the need. for a loving marriage with a child of my own.

The VEDAS say that ‘UNTIL WE FEEL THE NEED, NO NEED EXISTS’. All needs are personal, & the difficulty of the “Christian ethic, unmodified’ in some faiths is the desire to pigeonhole everyone.

As an older man, I realize that I have to cast further field, & the internet makes this possible. Yet, if a woman forms a loving relationship that includes heir’s, & possibly one other, with a stable, caring man, - what of it? I counsel many homeless / broken home families without any resources, & I hardly see that as ‘better.’

Therefore, I hire a hockey coach, & teach my child golf.
Therefore, he /she now get to attend a better private school.

Therefore, I follow in the footsteps of Pierre Trudeau (sired at 74a0 or Moses (sired at 120!!!, According to Talmud….

Or ‘ABE”

“Abe, sixty five year old Wealthy new father, exposes his child to sex education:

“SO THAT, MY SON is how a baby is made!
Edgar, Celeste, you may now resume your normal duties…”
 Soorare
Joined: 5/3/2008
Msg: 128
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You can have your sperm lab tested...
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:11:07 PM
The research into deteriorated sperm is rather suspect.

It became the ‘new cachet’ in the 1980-‘s & like the ‘male menopause’, sold a heck of a lot of books.

The risk factor has to be quantified. By real statistical analysis. Yes, the risk of schizophrenia increases by 40 %, the quantitative effect is a shift form 0.4 % to .56% of the birth population. I am not sure of the true aggregate quantitative shift- if someone has a verified figure from a trusted source, pleas post it…


Birth defects are more likely to be caused by chemicals men are exposed to in certain blue-collar professions- heartbreaking as this is.
 Soorare
Joined: 5/3/2008
Msg: 129
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Thank you Urbanessa!
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:42:23 PM
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 2/20/2008 352 PM
because they are retarded what else could it be?

+...Is that what they taught you at "How to become a total b*tch"-school?
Clearly, as a self-proclaimed "social worker" you should be able to use a term like "retarded" in a more sensitive way. ...."

Itwqould nice to get these debates back to 'ladies & gentlemen,' rather than yowling & hissing scrathing & dissing sessions...
 Chagal116
Joined: 11/8/2007
Msg: 134
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:23:26 PM
I think older men still want to prove that they still can. How ever I don't think that the woman who's biological clock is ticking wants an older guy. Raising a child is a group effort, and a 18yr+ commitment.
I can't have any more children and I do not want to raise anymore ,I want to enjoy the years to come and look forward to grandchildren.
If a man in his 50's wants to spend his older years with the stress and all the work involved with raising a child at that age more power to him.
 countryboy55
Joined: 10/4/2007
Msg: 136
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:25:05 AM
Some have the grand kids that the dead beat fathers dump
 Soorare
Joined: 5/3/2008
Msg: 138
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WOW......
Posted: 6/22/2008 11:48:12 PM
Close to 66, close to illiterate!

I have a vision of the letterwriter pecking out that missive , single finger, brow furrowed in fierce determination...

In the final analysis- if you don't believe in older men having children- don't marry them.

It's THAT simple...
 rdcnorm
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 141
WOW......
Posted: 6/23/2008 7:35:55 AM

I would love to see some of these people that want babies so bad to consider adopting and not just babies ...but take an older kid or a child with challenges.

If you have the time and the money to show some real love do it for a kid that never got a real chance to have a great life


I did just that, at age 42,, now my son is 8, with a disability,,, life couldn't be better...
 guys4theforums
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 143
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 6/27/2008 1:38:45 PM
MSG#1,Candylane wrote:Can someone explain to me, why would men over 50 who already have children would like to have more children? It realy puzzled me... don't you know (they know) that this is a 20 year contract and more than likely will be dead before their child reach the age of maturity. And how much can you really contribute to the child at that age when they are going through a life change themselves?

I have a brother that is 51 and a younger half brother that is 18. Our dad is 73 and I can tell you that the little brother had a lot better child hood growing up under dad through his late 50's on through his 60's and now into his 70's than me and the older brother did growing up under him being in his 20's and 30's. So I'd say in our case the dad has more to offer in his late 50's 60's and early 70's than he did in his 20's and 30's . So why not have kids when your older? Was better for little bro than it was for me and big bro !
 guys4theforums
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 146
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 6/27/2008 7:04:05 PM

msg-152:Why did he have more money, did he screw up with you and big bro and was making amends....Why???

Money an time an was no longer out running woman.
 rdcnorm
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 160
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 2/13/2009 8:28:04 AM

no 10 year old child wants a 60 year old parent.

In my opinion,, that statement is just wrong.....

How would you know what a 10yr old child wants,, I would bet there are an awful lot of children out there, who would give anything to be loved, I would also bet there are many children who love their father at any age that they may be...
 FastReb
Joined: 1/3/2009
Msg: 164
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Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 2/13/2009 9:27:09 PM
I've been reading this post with great interest. It has certainly hit a nerve with some, and as usual, not so much with others. Also, when I start trying to think of how this subject is any different from the "why don't women date men who are...." threads or "why don't men want..." threads, there doesn't seem to be any difference. The same answer still applies. Some people will want to and some won't. The answer as to "why" they should/shouldn't/could/couldn't/might want to/ might not want to is as individual as all of us individual posters.

My own personal opinion on this subject is that if a man wants to take on that responsibility ( you can include knowing it could happen and doesn't take extra precautions) and finds someone that wants to possibly have a child with him, that's his decision and hers.

I find all the arguments about the "older sperm isn't as healthy" and "they'll not be around when the kid hits their teens" and "no kid wants a father who looks like a grandfather" to be absolutely ridiculous. Every one of these "reasons" don't cut the mustard, when you look at it closely.

The "they'll not be around when the kid hits the teen years" reason. Really? I didn't know any of us came with an expiration date or were guaranteed a certain number of years on this earth. Over the years, I've read of quite a few men and women who just dropped dead in their 20s and 30s, with their unknown and undiagnosed medical condition only being revealed at the autopsy. Sheeew! Got this one beat, as I've made it to 47 now and expect to see many more birthdays. Maybe I will and maybe I won't. But what I won't do is wake up each morning thinking, "Well, why try to live life to it's fullest, I've only got a few more years anyway."

The "no kid wants a father that looks like a grandfather" reason. I've lived a hard life and have more than a few stray gray hairs. So sue me. I've even been mistaken for being the grandfather of my sons a few times. I laughed at the other person's embarrassment when I corrected their assumption and my sons thought it was hilarious, teasing me for hours. However, not once have I had them hesitate, or look embarrassed, or lied when introducing me to their teachers, other parents or their friends. As a matter of fact, each time they did so, they had a big smile on their face when introducing me as their DAD.

The "older sperm isn't as healthy" reason. Again, really? What, children with birth defects aren't born to healthy, young, "in the prime of life" couples everyday? Of all the reasons given so far, I have the most empathy with this one risk of becoming a parent. Several years ago, before the divorce came along, my wife became pregnant with our second child. When we went to get the ultra-sound, we learned that our child had poly-cystic kidneys. It is literally a death sentence before the child is even born. The doctors explained how this condition could happen and not once did they ever mention that "old sperm" might be a reason, even though I was 42 at the time. We were given the choice of aborting the child or going to term. Hoping the doctors were wrong and weren't able to "know" for sure, our child was born at term. They were right. My child died in my arms hours after being born. I don't tell all of you this for pity. My grief is my own. I tell you this now so that you can understand that I still elected to father a child later, because of the knowledge that these types of things happen to people at any age, younger or older. If you were to stop and say, "I won't have a child because this or that could go wrong," then you'll give up any chance to know the joys of parenting. The same could be said of risk in any other situation.

When I look around and see all of these "sperm donors" who've gotten the latest girlfriend pregnant, only to tell her it's her problem when he gets the news, I just have to smile and think that my sons have been much better off with me being their father than one of them. Now, I'll get off my stump and go check on my boys. I'll listen to their breathing as they lay sleeping in their beds and I'll be thinking, "D**n, there's nothing better than being a dad."
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 167
Men over 50 wanting children
Posted: 2/16/2009 1:23:10 PM
I see a man in another state who told me about a friend of his. "Joe" is 63-64 and married to a woman in her late 20s or early 30s. They have been married for about five years or a bit longer. They had to go through EXTREME means to get her pregnant, but they succeeded--twice. They have a son about four years old and twins who are over a year old.

When she was pregnant with the twins, she had to take it "easy," and after they were born, she never stopped taking it easy. She does little more than lie around the house all day; she has gained a lot of weight and is no longer interested in sex or other aspects of married life.

Suddenly, Joe is in his mid-60s with a young trophy wife (who is no longer a trophy) and three small children for whom he will be financially responsible until he is well into his 70s. If he divorces, he will probably have to pay alimony. Retirement? Forget it. He consistently complains to my friend about his loss of freedom.

Who is the loser? All of them: him for getting his not well thought out wishes; her for getting her not well thought out wishes (even though her wish might have been financial gain, she is obviously not happy); and most of all--the kids who have parents who seemingly regret their existence. Even if the children are loved, they have parents who are not happy with each other. I feel sorry for the kids, but mom and dad really got what they deserve for their selfish goals.
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