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 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 251
Re: Gun ControlPage 11 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)
Mike, what would you suggest for those of us concerned about people who are NOT knowledgable users?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 252
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 8:58:28 AM
^^^Of course I would, but I'm not sure why you asked. We all know that it is not always the case that gun owners are "knowledgable" or responsible. Do you have a suggestion to the question that I asked MajMike?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 253
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 9:09:56 AM
I think that's a good idea; a GREAT idea!

It IS a form of gun control, though...
another issue: would you have to pay?

Again, I think it's a great idea. I don't think it solves the problem, but it's a great start.
 viceguy2
Joined: 4/3/2005
Msg: 254
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 9:14:55 AM


Can somebody please tell me why you need a gun? besides the fact that you have been brainwashed into thinking that life will not be safe without one, please tell me why you need a gun?

In response to the quote regarding Switzerland's gun policies and how they deterred Hitler during WWII.
^^
That's an interesting perspective, and with the current global situation and American troops stretched thin, it leads me to prognosticate what deterrent, or last line of defense to protect the homefront, will American citizens have once the constitution is either changed, or repressed under martial law, outlawing firearms ???
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 255
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 9:47:28 AM

Did you actually see,..."Bowling for Colombine",...
I'm guessing NOT,...Well it does a fine job of rebutting your statements,...
which are so far beyond reason they aren't even worth going into,...


My statement was that adults who shoot someone, and the parents of children who shoot someone, are responsible for their actions, not the gun. I'm not sure that Michael Moore can ever create a movie that will change my mind about that. You're saying it's unreasonable to believe that a gun doesn't control a human beings actions? What type of mind control does it exert over the human psyche? (please, be specific, I want psychometric data, the whole thing.)


Bulldog: Guns don't control children's minds, but then again, leaving them lying around where children can get them is irresponsible. Yes, children can make decisions. No, they cannot form rational informed consent because they're too young. That's why you have to wait to the age of consent to marry or form legally binding contracts. If you can't trust your young children to make binding legal contracts, how can you trust that same child with a lethal weapon. Sending the six year old from Flint who shot his classmate to the chair isn't the right answer. Not putting a gun in his hand is.


Hmmm, I guess when I said that the parents of these neglected children were responsible, you must have missed that, or repressed that memory. There are many parents who spend time with their children, teach them responsible use of firearms, even take them hunting. Children CAN form rational informed decisions, they do it everday when they choose to look both ways before they cross the street, or when they follow their parents instructions to go to school. This is not a debate about children are too young to have firearms, because there are many who use them responsibly, that don't go shooting up their classmates. I'm not sure what six year old from "Flint" you are talking about, but his parents are responsible for his actions, and should be charged with murder. And, just so you know, there is no death penalty in "Flint", or indeed all of Michigan.

Btw, Flint, Michigan is the not the hellhole that Michael Moore loves to portray in his movies, Michael Moore is a lying **stard that will exploit the working class, and our soldiers, to make a quick buck from his "documentaries".
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 256
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 9:50:16 AM
OK Tim

I didn't intend for you to use Michael Moore as a source,....
He only compiled sources,.....and then presented them,...

did you actually see his film? I know many people critcised
his film without ever having seen his work,...

I not only saw it, but every time he states his source and
where you can double check,...I actually did,...

So regardless of where you get your information,...
the facts still remain the facts,....for all to see and verify

Also if you read all this forum's submissions,...you would know that
We Canadians have the same rights as you do pertaining to gun ownership
with one exception,...... automatic weapons,....

This government doesn't see the need for the above,...
not for hunting,...not for self defence,....not for target shooting
target shooting with a mashine gun isn't much of a challange now is it?

so let me ask you this,...do you believe that any American Citizen
who wants one should be able to purchase,... a granade launsher,..
or a weapon with the capability of discharging 100 rounds per minute,...

Just FYI,..I too was in the military, (3 1/2 years)....and was trained
in the use and maintenance of firearms,...so what?

Truth be told,..no one here on this side of the border cares if you all
have guns,...or even what kind of guns,...

But your cavalier attitude,..is shown in movies,...and music videos,..
that our children watch too,...and before you get into a rebuttle where
you tell me that does that mean every kid who watched "Gun Smoke"
went out and killed people,...of course not ,....that would be silly

as is my son and his friends speaking like they stem from the "hood"
It's just not their life's experience,..but you wouldn't know it from
listening to their conversations,....

and what is it about with you making your point by telling me that
cars kill too,.....That in the wrong hands,...cars are deadly weapons
too,...again of course they are,...

which is why we license them,.....and sometimes restrict them when
proven they are in fact in the hands of the wrong people,...also
why here in Nova Scotia Canada when you are caught driving while
impaired,...they take your license away,...(1year) for a first offence

Now I'm sure that sounds like VERY radical thinking to you,....
but I'd rather have my kid punished,..than burried,...
and even though not everyone here does what's lawfull all the time
it does however greatly reduce the numbers for us,...

As Hick stated earlier,..no one's advocating the removal of all guns
just that you use more common sence in their use and storage,...

I do find it interesting though that now,....because of 911 no one
may even have a nail clipper on their person when flying,....
(nail clippers for heavens sake,...I have never heard of anyone being clipped to death)
have you?
and just this morning I heard on the news that in light of the recent
incidents in Great Britan,....your own,...in NYC,...are being randomly
searched at train / subway stations,...and that your citisens MUST COMPLY

Doesn't that infringe on your 4th ammendment,..
the right against unreasonable search and seizure ?
(I think that's the 4th)

It's a lot easier to give up rights,... than it is to get them,...
ask any African American who today can vote,....
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 257
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 9:59:22 AM

This government doesn't see the need for the above,...
not for hunting,...not for self defence,....not for target shooting
target shooting with a mashine gun isn't much of a challange now is it?

so let me ask you this,...do you believe that any American Citizen
who wants one should be able to purchase,... a granade launsher,..
or a weapon with the capability of discharging 100 rounds per minute,...


Absolutely. The right to bear arms is the one amendment that won't be needed, until they try to take it away from us. You all need to understand that the second amendment's main purpose is to allow the average citizen to protect the rights we have, against being taken away by our govt. If Bush decided that the US has had enough of this democracy thing, and wanted to install a despotic ruler, we citizens would have the power to fight that. You may think that rocket launchers, and grenades are overkill now, but you know that it's virtually impossible to stop a tank with a .22. It's about our right to protect our rights. That probably doesn't make a lot of sense to you Canadians, your country never had to fight for it's independence. It must seem so alien, to see people have the ability to use force to stop anyone from taking our rights away.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 258
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:00:36 AM

I didn't intend for you to use Michael Moore as a source,....
He only compiled sources,.....and then presented them,...

did you actually see his film? I know many people critcised
his film without ever having seen his work,...

I not only saw it, but every time he states his source and
where you can double check,...I actually did,...

So regardless of where you get your information,...
the facts still remain the facts,....for all to see and verify
Ok, I didn't see Bowling, but I did see Far 911, and really expected to like it, but I did not. At all. I was extremely disappointed in the way that Moore cut and pasted clips together to portray something that didn't actually happen. In my opinion, we have enough problems with Bush, and he should have just stuck with the reality and protrayed that. In any event, assuming that he took the same tactic with Bowling (which I heard was much better than Far,) it is impossible to say that he merely "compiled sources and then presented them."

In my opinion, he did more to hurt his "cause" then help it.


I do find it interesting though that now,....because of 911 no one
may even have a nail clipper on their person when flying,....
(nail clippers for heavens sake,...I have never heard of anyone being clipped to death)
have you?
and just this morning I heard on the news that in light of the recent
incidents in Great Britan,....your own,...in NYC,...are being randomly
searched at train / subway stations,...and that your citisens MUST COMPLY

Doesn't that infringe on your 4th ammendment,..
the right against unreasonable search and seizure ?
(I think that's the 4th)
As far as airport security, it does not infringe on 4th amendment rights, because flying is a privilege (like driving, where you need a license.)

As far as NYC performing random searches, that would just be silly and ineffective... I hope that you're wrong, and I believe that you are. I haven't seen the news but I would be shocked to hear otherwise.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 259
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:24:53 AM
Well that answers my question,...you didn't see the movie,...
because had you seen it you wouldn't have asked what 6 year old,...

although you were not quoting me when you say that a child CAN
form a rational informed decision,...(even a 6 year old???)
I agree with the person who did say they can't,....that's the reason for juvenile court
and quite frankly it's a ludicrous statement to say they show this by
looking both ways before crossing the road,....my dog can do that too
does that mean he can make an informed rational decision too????

I won't explain why here,...explain why this the mother of this 6 yr old,..is not at
fault in this particular case of her son shooting his little classmate,.....
If you care enough you can see the movie for yourself to find out,...

or as seems to be your preference continue to criticize something without
bothering to check it out first,.....as is your right to do,...

In the dictionary that's the exact meaning of prejudice,...no kidding,..look it up,...

As for the potential of Michael Moore,..myself or anyone changing your mind,...
you're right,...can't happen,....you can't change a closed mind,...
How sad,....

 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 260
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:27:21 AM
So then the new definition of "closed mind" is "you don't agree with me?" Geeze, SO many more close-minded people on here than I realized...
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 261
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:29:12 AM
That's a little close minded Nitty.....

( I was just joshin' with ya Nitty...." )
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 262
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:31:33 AM
I AGREE with you. (so then I'm not close-minded, right?)

Me? Josh?
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 263
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:37:02 AM
that's not what I'm saying and you are actually not to whom
that comment was directed,..I should have specified Bulldog,..

I could care less if you agree with me or not,... in fact my preference
is you don't,..and check ALL the FACTS for yourself,..and then decide,....

That is the premis behind making an (informed) decision,...

The definition of a closed mind to me is,...someone who has made a decision
based on a belief,..rather than the facts,...and isn't interested in learning the facts,..
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 264
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:46:07 AM
Well, my informed "decision," if you want to call it that, is that airport security in no way infringes on our 4thA rights.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 265
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:56:47 AM


Mike, what would you suggest for those of us concerned about people who are NOT knowledgable users?


My suggestion is to make gun safety part of the school circiculum. Something you have to pass to get into the next level of school.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 266
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 10:57:10 AM
Marita
If you didn't want to reference him as a source of information, then why did you?
I actually did see the film, and I've also seen his other films. They present a skewed position at best, and are a great source of entertainment even if you're not accustomed to being so close minded that you think only one perspective exists.
As for illegal search and seizure, that isn't the same thing. By electing to utilize public or mass transportation, you are subjecting yourself to the rules and requirements set forth. No one complained when they began airport security, and no one complained when they increased it. Personally if I didn't want to be searched, I'd take a cab. Public or mass transit is a privelage, not a right.
You really have no concept of what our laws are at all do you? For DUI 1st offense you lose your privelages for 6 months AND have to take alcohol and drug abuse classes, AND you have to carry a different type of federally mandated insurance called SR-22, which is 3 to 10 times higher than regular automobile insurance, the second offense has mandatory jail time and a repeat of all the above with a one to five year loss of privelages. Third offense in most all 50 states is a permanent loss of driving privelages.
In order to own a machine gun or ANY type of automatic weapon, you have to posess a class III firearms license, something that requires an extensive FBI background check, and there are actually not that many people who do own them. Now if you're talking semi automatic, that's a different story, and as ex-military, I would think you could distinguish the difference. Yes we have weapons available that are assault "type", they are SEMI-automatic, not fully automatic. If you had a source other than left wing radical propoganda, you might know this.... but like most liberals, you cling to the first thing that sounds like a good idea, and hold on for dear life never waivering even in the face of what I like to call "facts".
African Americans weren't the only people initially who couldn't vote.... we brought a lot of traditions over from Europe, such as not being allowed to vote UNLESS you were a property owner, then that got changed, then women were given the right to vote, then african americans. We have an extra hundred years of growing pains, I'm sure Canada picked up on what we had that worked, vs what we had in place that didn't, when they made their initial decisions pertaining to your constitution based on the best ideas of the times that suited the governing social class.
I'd be interested in reading any legislation you prepare pertaining to common sense, if nothing else it should be good for a laugh.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 267
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:05:10 AM
there's security and security,...but you didn't tell me how
threatening you think nail clippers can be,...

I have no problem with going through a metal detector at the
airport even though guns and amo are now available that have
made without metals,...I have no problem with my bags being searched either,...

Having said that please explain something to me,...
airport security states you may carry,...1 lighter and 1 book of matches

any excess is taken away,...I had 3 lighters in my purse because
you can't put them in you luggage,...(could blow up I think is the reason)
a valid one too,..same as why you can't put aerosol cans in your luggage

This I understand,...but what I don't understand is why is one lighter ok?

can't you do just as much dammage with the 1 that you can with 3?
If it has been determined that a lighter is a threat,...
then shouldn't they all be confiscated?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 268
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:07:47 AM
cough*Phillip Morris*cough.....
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 269
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:13:12 AM

The definition of a closed mind to me is,...someone who has made a decision
based on a belief,..rather than the facts,...and isn't interested in learning the facts,..


We did check the facts, and listened to your side, now I think it's time you followed your own advice and perhaps look into why we have the right to keep and bear arms, why public / mass transportation is not a right but rather a privelage, and how legislation as it applies to those different elements, is handled. Just think, if we didn't have our basic freedoms in place, this site would not extend beyond your southern border... (freedom of speech is included in the same document).
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 270
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:26:53 AM

there's security and security,...but you didn't tell me how threatening you think nail clippers can be,...

Every pair of nail clippers I have comes with a file, a file is a pointed instrument that can be used to stab someone. I can see where the security measures could, and probably should, go a lot further, but the bottom line is, these are the rules in place for transportation within our borders, and if you don't agree or feel somehow that your inability to do your nails in flight is just simply over the top, you are of course free to stay in the great white north.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 271
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:33:02 AM
Personally, I think it's a sad state of affairs when we get cranky about not being able to carry nail clippers or a lighter on to an airplane. Although I guess it's a good sign if that's the worst thing people have to complain about...

And as far as anyone getting items confiscated anymore, I think it's your own damn fault for bringing them! For goodness sake, it's not like it's a surprise!
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 272
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:42:27 AM
Hey Tim,..I stand corrected,...thank you for clarifying some points for me,...

The whole DUI,..thing,..excellent,...seems to me those are all good rules,....

and yes I do know the difference between a semi automatic and fully automatic one
I just don't think you need a semi for hunting deer,..but if you do,..more power to ya

you did however verify that your citizens are permitted the latter,...as long as they jump through the proper hoops,...,...still not sure why you would want them but again if you do
nock yourselves out,...and you seem to be cool with getting searched when you use public transportation,...or when you go to school (I'm sure not all but many have metal detectors)
which again,...no skin off of my nose,...

but I do take umbride with a couple of your points,...
women did not get the vote,....they fought like hell for it,...and earned it,...
and that was way before the 1960's which is when your African Americans
fought for and earned that right,...and even then they had to fight to
allow for it's implementation,...but that's history and we can both agree they
have that right now,.....so let's move on,...

Which part of my several statements in which I stated that I didn't just
take Mr Moore's word for anything,...I checked it out for myself,...
all the information is there for anyone to check out,...after watching his movie,
I was interested in verifying his statements to myself,...you disagree,..no problem your allowed,...your even allowed to call me anything you want including close minded,..
that just doesn't necessarily make it so,...I am interested in hearing ALL sides of
an issue,...and when presented with new facts that change my former opinion,...
I'm not too proud to say that changes things for me,...and thank you for clearing that up..

any of us can only ever base our conclusions on the facts we have available to us at any given point in time,...I am no exception,....neither are you






 BuzWeaver
Joined: 6/25/2005
Msg: 273
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 11:49:36 AM
I believe the underlying problem people have with guns isn’t entirely about guns as much as their distrust of people, who happen to have guns. If someone wants to harm someone they don’t need a gun, they simply need an opportunity. Having and owning a gun doesn’t make you a bad person nor promotes the violent use of a gun.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 274
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 12:25:30 PM

The underlying problem here is the "I don't like them so you can't have them" mentality
I disagree. There are plenty of people who "like" (read: have) guns who support gun control.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 275
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 12:29:22 PM
LOL Point taken

I was in the medical field,...and although I had to qualify on the rifel range,..
Truth be told I may not have been,.. hadn't buddy next to me shot down all my targets,...
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