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 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 276
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Re: Gun ControlPage 12 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)
LOL,...well I generally keep the fact that buddy next to me helped me pass boot camp
to myself as well,..In all fairness though the damn targets had so may holes in them from previous firings,....the wind wouldn't have knocked these suckers down,...

and I too remember hating cleaning my weapons.....
I'd rather spit shine the whole barracks boots first,...
someething I actually did excell in,...
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 277
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 1:09:33 PM

yes I do know the difference between a semi automatic and fully automatic one
I just don't think you need a semi for hunting deer,..but if you do,..more power to ya

Then you know the difference is merely self****ng vs manual bolt action..... that is the ONLY difference. I think the ability so fire the second round is increased by a mere second or fraction there of, not an issue I would be up in arms about (pun intended).

you did however verify that your citizens are permitted the latter,...as long as they jump through the proper hoops

The "proper hoops' are pretty much exhaustive, it's extremely expensive and you cannot continue ownership of the weapon if you allow the license to lapse, there are references, statements of intent, insurance and bonding requirements, not just anyone can get a class III FFL, and for the most part, I don't know of anyone who wants a fully automatic weapon badly enough to subject themselves to it. Another benefit of having it this way is that all firearms owned by the licensee are fully registered, and failing to do so results in loss of license, confiscation of inventory and mandatory imprisonment. For the record, I've never even heard of an individual legally owning an RPG, and I don't think you can but I could be mistaken.

women did not get the vote,....they fought like hell for it,...and earned it,...
and that was way before the 1960's which is when your African Americans
fought for and earned that right,...and even then they had to fight to
allow for it's implementation,...but that's history and we can both agree they
have that right now

With the exception of property owners, everyone had to "fight" for the right to vote, to some factions it came easy, to others it did not... Society, like everything else is an evolutionary thing, and when things don't progress as quickly as they should, revolution takes over... Every aspect of our society has had to fight for some sort of equal recognition, it doesn't mean anything other than change is inevitable.
The problem with Mr. Moore is that he edits outakes and presents them out of context, or he blindsides people... He enters the conversation with a definate rehearsed agenda, and catches people off guard. Hardly a credible way to present opposing sides of any debate.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 278
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 1:24:04 PM
yna6,..I don't know your experience with children,...

it has been my experience however,..that they don't always do
what they are taught to,.. nor even forbidden from doing,...

and Have you heard of a show on A&E,...called growing up GOTTI

the premis of the program is unclear to me,..but basically it's
John Gotti's daughter,...living in a marvelous mansion,..raising her 3
hellraiser teeny bopper sons,...,...they are regularly lavished with
cars,..and diamonds,..are disrespectful to pretty much everybody
they are seen drinking under age,..among other things,...

Now I don't know for a fact how Ms Gotti made her $$$ to live the way she does,..
I may even be way off by suggesting it could have been as a result of her
father's life of crime,...but in one of the comercials she is heard saying to someone,...
I will kill you with my bare hands,...(not one of her kids),...

again I'm not claiming to know the law of where ever she lives but
isn't making a verbal death threat against the law in the States?,....

Perhaps the victims of her father's life of crime should sue her then,...
just a thought,.....maybe your onto something
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 279
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 1:39:36 PM
Marita
You really need to stop believing everything that passes into your home via the boob tube is factual.

Now I don't know for a fact how Ms Gotti made her $$$ to live the way she does,..

She wrote a bestseller

I will kill you with my bare hands,...(not one of her kids),... again I'm not claiming to know the law of where ever she lives but isn't making a verbal death threat against the law in the States?,....

Yes it is, but there are certain criteria that has to be met in order for it to actually be a crime. 1.) The context in which the statement was made; you mentioned it not being made to her kids, so you obviously understand the context issue. If statements like this are part of her everyday normal conversation, and she has no history of ever attempting to follow through, the likelyhood of it being considered criminal is practically non existant. 2.) She has to possess the ability to follow through on the threat; if she made it to someone my size, then obviously it was simply a joke and could not be taken by any rational person as a serious threat / intent to do bodily harm.
We also have SouthPark on TV here, any comments on how many times Kenny gets resurrected?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 280
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 1:41:20 PM
I don't watch the show; I can't stand it. But... I thought they stopped killing Kenny!
 BuzWeaver
Joined: 6/25/2005
Msg: 281
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 1:57:30 PM
The underlying problem here is the "I don't like them so you can't have them" mentality.


That is a reasonable conclusion and thank you for serving our country. I too have been a gun owner and was issued my side arm when I worked in intelligence. I worked along side many individuals that carried fire arms and of the hundreds of people that I personally came in contact with during that time, there was never an accident or incident in their home involving a fire arm.

I have friends and family members that have fire arms and none of them have had any accidents or incidents involving their weapons.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 282
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 2:09:45 PM
well Tim in this case I have to admitt,...... you got me,....
I don't watch the show I have just seen the comercials,...
good to know that you do though,....

and just out of curriosity,..best selling book in what?
I'm guessing it's something good like cooking,...right?

I did say I did not know how she made her money,...
you even cut and pasted that in your answer to me ,..

how does that translate into your dig about my believing
everything that passes my to me via the tube,...
what am I supposed to have believed according to you?,...

statements usually don't have question marks at the end of them,...
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 283
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 2:31:02 PM

I don't watch the show I have just seen the comercials,...good to know that you do though,....

I don't watch commercial TV, it's too silly. I only know of the show because they advertised it during something I was actually interested in watching.

best selling book in what

I believe it was somewhat of a biography, her fathers experiences from her perspective, or perhaps an autobiography. It's not of particular interest to me, otherwise I'd look it up on google for you.

I did say I did not know how she made her money,...you even cut and pasted that in your answer to me ,..

Exactly, I was answering your question, she wrote a book....


how does that translate into your dig about my believing everything that passes my to me via the tube,... what am I supposed to have believed according to you?,...

You can believe whatever you want, but if it were me, I would prefer to do a little research rather than just taking someones word for something (Michael Moore) and demonstrating my ignorance of an issue on a public forum by telling people what the "facts" are rather than asking them to verify if the single source of information is accurate.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 284
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/22/2005 8:08:33 PM
Cops should not be allowed to carry firearms. Seems like every story I hear about someone doing something stupid with a gun, it turns out to be a cop.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 285
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/23/2005 11:57:04 AM
The Darwin Awards are funny, but are they anything more than urban legends?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 286
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/23/2005 12:01:29 PM
I know when you google "darwin awards" a site comes up that is entitled "Darwin awards: urban legends" but that's just a portion of the site. The regular ones are, unfortunately, true, to the best of my knowledge.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 287
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/24/2005 4:22:53 PM

MajMike
" My safe is an American Eagle multipurpose that weighs I think 600 pounds, with 1/2 inch steel plating (among other layers, fireproof too). I got a very good deal and spent $1700.00 on my safe (used). For people with few guns other safe options are available, even singles.


Sorry Mike, i was called away for a week. But thanks for answering my question,
i was curious about the topic of gun safes. Do you think they should be a mandatory
requirement for all gun owners? That would seem reasonable to me. All in the effort
towards 'responsible gun owners' keeping their guns out of the hands of criminals and
children.




MajMike
"The problem with only teaching gun safety to the children of gun owners is that as a group those children probably already get more gun education than other kids. It is the children who aren't familiar with guns who need the safety education, for as they interact with the world they will encounter them.

The NRA has outstanding youth gun safety education called the "Eddie Eagle" program, which can be found either at the NRA site or through gun dealers everywhere. They even do a lot of free classes for kids considered 'at risk' near NRA HQ."


"children of gun owners ... probably already get more gun education than other kids." ??
Then why are so many of the 'gun accidents' happening to children in and around the
homes of gun owners ?

I sorry if i'm not all so impressed with the, ""Eddie Eagle" program " . Particularly in that
it also targets the children of non-gun owners.
.... Mind you, given that i've worked for some time in sales, i'd have to give the NRA
credit for the suggestion of what appears to be an excellent marketing strategy to a new
demographic. Curious lil kids, all glowing and impressed, one day hoping to be Gun Owners.
Reality check? Sales, it's Usually just about the bottom line with little or no concern about
ethics.

Plus, the ""Eddie Eagle" program " in public and private schools? $$ Cha-ching, Cha-ching $$
Think of all the guns sold there. Alota sales people would drool over those commissions. $$
The schools would obviously have to buy all those required guns right, and ammo etc... ??
At a cost to non-gun owning taxpayers ?

What was the general response, btw. from school boards concerning the, "NRA" and it's
" outstanding youth gun safety education called the "Eddie Eagle" program" ?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 288
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/24/2005 4:51:14 PM
If all gun owners were responsible - we wouldn't need to restrict firearms. The sad fact is that many, if not most, are not.

Btw, my definition of responsible is quite high. Taking a firearms course, having a locked and secure gun safe connected to an alarm central, trigger locks on all firearms ( all keys to both lockers and trigger guards on you at all times) , keeping ammo in a separate area , and also knowing all basic first aid in case of a problem.

I doubt that the majority of people do that.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 289
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/24/2005 4:59:42 PM
Of course they don't, Monty! Well, hunters might, but the part of the population who believes it necessary to be ready at all times to protect themselves and their PROPERTY (yikes!) would need at least one weapon loaded at all times. Again, yikes.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 290
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/24/2005 5:00:20 PM
Or wait until they weed themselves out by Darwinian selection, though it make take some time.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 291
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/24/2005 5:26:43 PM
Montreal_Guy
Unfortunately, i agree with you. In fact, there's been several posts on this thread from
gun owners who refuse to do anything like what you advocate. And have said that,
having an unloaded gun (in a safe, ammo separate) would be as effective as "throwing
a rock agaainst an intruder ". However Mike has impressed me as a good example of a
responsible gun owner, in spite of having 1 loaded gun behind his bed just at night when
his family sleeps. Though i truly believe guns are more of a hazard that a protection, i
think that if all gunowners invested both the time for education and money for safety that
he has, the hazards to society would be greatly reduced.

And that's still providing that even responsible gun owners don't suffer an incidence of
declined mental health at any given time in their lifetime. I don't recall the statistics but
but there is a fair chance than many people will suffer some form of mental illness especially
if there's some genetic predisposition. More men actually succeed in attempted suicides
because of the more aggressive methods often chosen. A gun makes it a done deal.
Add to that the prevalence of family break down or general family violence in our culture ?
To me, having an easily accessible gun in those volatile situations and the results can be
particularly deadly.

;) Montreal Girl
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 292
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/24/2005 5:51:59 PM


MajMike
" ... That is why education is so important, but you seem to equate gun safety education with gun marketing. You can't have it both ways, either you can teach gun safety or you can try (in vain) to pretend guns don't exist, only one of which will work.

If you see every effort to teach gun safety as "an excellent marketing strategy for a new demographic", then how do propose to teach gun safety without discussing guns? Or is it simply that you don't really want gun safety but gun elimination? Is your idea of gun education to teach them to hate and fear guns? I support safety education, but in an objective manner by someone expert with firearms, not some bullshit scare tactics."



~ I don't see, " every effort to teach gun safety as "an excellent marketing strategy for a new demographic".... " I specifically referred to, "the ""Eddie Eagle" program " in public and private schools?" as "an excellent marketing strategy for a new demographic".
I had clearly stated my position on the teaching of gun safety previously. (But granted, it was about five pages back.)




lola
" I also agree with you about teaching children about gun safety. But I disagree that it should be part of the regular school curriculum. I believe the cost of that education should be the responsility of gun owners for themselves and their family members. And be required prior to the actual gun ownership and registration. The heavily funded NRA would be my choice to absorb the cost of this education, as opposed to public schools, which are funded by many non-gun owning taxpayers. " (msg : 476 )


But i did just question your statement concerning;

"children of gun owners ... probably already get more gun education than other kids." ??




lola
" Then why are so many of the 'gun accidents' happening to children in and around the
homes of gun owners ? "



?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 293
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 6:27:52 AM
I agree Lola, if every gun owner was like Mike - we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What drives me crazy are some of the reactions I see from the gun lobby. You want to extend the delay to get a weapon , and everyone starts to scream. What's wrong with doing it the way Canada does it.


1.The applicant and one other person who has known the applicant for at least 1 year must sign a statement confirming that an accompanying photo (of the applicant) accurately identifies the applicant.

2. Two people (other than a spouse) must sign a statement confirming that they have known the applicant for at least three years and to the best of their knowledge and belief:

the information in the application is true;
the applicant does not pose a threat to public safety.

3. The applicant must provide the name, current address and telephone number of every spouse or common-law partner with whom the applicant has lived during the past two years. If their whereabouts are unknown, the applicant must make a written statement (on the form) to that effect. (Spouses and common-law partners will be notified about the application.)

4. There is a minimum 28-day waiting period unless the applicant has a valid FAC or licence.

5. Applicants must show proof that safety course requirements have been met.

There are additional requirements for restricted and prohibited firearms.



You apply, and have to provide character witnesses, and a clear photo. You also have to provide the names of all partners in your life going back two years.You have to wait four weeks, allowing the police time to verify the information.

You need to provide much the same type of information to get a car, and have to wait more than four weeks if a non-driver ( to pass the tests) .

A firearm is much more deadly , in the wrong hands.

Considering the most likely victims of wrongful use will be the owner ( suicide , or misuse) , a spouse or ex-spouse, or family - all those things minimize the chance of those types of things occuring.

Meanwhile, when someone has to wait a couple of days in the US - they are hopping mad.

That is the type of thing I just don't get.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 294
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 6:34:20 AM

You also have to provide the names of all partners in your life going back two years.
There's definitely an argument to be made that this would be unconstitutional down here.
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 295
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 6:42:11 AM
Just curious about the "guns are more deadly then firearms".....

In 2002, there were 48,366 unintentional deaths due to transportation accidents(ranging from pedestrians to car occupants). In the same year there were 11,829 unintentional deaths from assault with a firearm(criminal), 243 due to firearm discharge and 300 legal intervention involving the discharge of a firearm. 48K plus versus 12K plus?

ooops..my bad.. I forgot to include 17,108 due to intentional self inflicted harm.

so...48K versus 29K?
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 296
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 11:19:47 AM
herkimer , Please share the source of the statistics that you quoted.

Now, referring to those statistics.... "48k versus 29k " ....

I would ask, 48,000 deaths due to automobiles, from a pool of ,
How many automobile owners ?

And then, i'd ask, 29,000 firearm deaths, from the exsisting pool of,
How many gun owners ?

In light of those inquiries, your statistics would suggest a very different conclusion that
what you appear to be trying to suggest.

But at a brain-dead glance, it looked kinda interesting. ;)

uhmmm, ... not to mention, that cars truly are a necessity for most people in their daily
lives, .... every single day. So they use them, ... every single day. Leading most
people into an ongoing situation that is referred to as, 'time at risk'.
Involving stuff like, ..you know, predictable occurance rates based on statistical probability.

 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 297
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 11:34:08 AM


What drives me crazy are some of the reactions I see from the gun lobby. You want to extend the delay to get a weapon , and everyone starts to scream. What's wrong with doing it the way Canada does it.


A woman being stalked by an ex can end up dead during the delay. I know you Canadians are swell guys, but here in America we're not so nice. Waiting periods for guns are anti-woman. Oh, and our Supreme Court recently declared that the police are not responsible for our safety.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 298
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 11:38:11 AM


I would ask, 48,000 deaths due to automobiles, from a pool of ,
How many automobile owners ?

And then, i'd ask, 29,000 firearm deaths, from the exsisting pool of,
How many gun owners ?


It doesn't matter much given the huge number of car and gun owners. In either case the percentages become negligible. Neither guns nor cars are the problem.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 299
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 12:20:30 PM


MajMikeW
" I believe children of gun owners do receive more gun education than non-owner kids..."


Yes, they are the children that are the ones 'at risk'.
Children of non-gun owners can be simply taught to stay the hell away from guns.
Because it's easy to have an accident that can kill you. (period)

I see no point in teaching those kids about,
" all aspects of gun ownership, from weapons familiarity to storage, and of course safety."
This information would not be required until the age of consent, if and when they chose
to be a gun owner. And then they can pay for this required education themselves.
Drivers Ed is not taught until it's needed for a drivers licence if one chooses to have one.



MajMikeW
" That's another reason (imo) to have standardized safety education, so all participants
get the right information and demonstrated safe gun handling/storage is covered properly."


" Standardized " ... absolutely. Including all of the 22,000 (?) gun laws.
I would also demand the successful completion of rigorous examination requirements
pertaining to standards of safety, and all of those laws.
That alone, would weed out alot of reckless idiots and irresponsible, potential gun owners.
And would have the added bonus of a built in 'waiting period' for study to meet those
examination requirements.
22,000 (?) gun laws ? It would seem that periodic refresher courses, with rexamination
should be required as well. At the cost to the Consumer of these products.
~ I paid for my own required driver's education and i also pay fairly high dues annually
to maintain that privilege.

My sense is that the actual people who would balk at these requirements are exactly
the people who should be weeded out from having gun ownership. Because i also sense
that these people have no sense of responsability toward others. And therefore should
not be awarded the privilege of 'responsible' gun ownership.

And in terms of the 'right' versus 'privelege' argument pertaining to gun ownership,
I am aware of your Constitutional Rights, however i also believe a society should
evolve progressively for the betterment of all, in that society. And that can involve
compromising the percieved rights of individuals in light of recurrent social problems
that are affecting the majority in that society.
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 300
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/25/2005 12:34:54 PM
Iola,

the source for those "brain dead" statistics is the National safety council.

www.nsc.org


I will agree that comparing firearm related deaths to automobiles is a flawed argument. I do however note that the majority of deaths from firearms are either self inflicted(both intentional and unintentional) or in commision of an illegal act. Law abiding educated gun owners are not and never will be part of that problem.


just some other interesting reads...

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds_072803.htm



By Alan Hoskin
Manager, Research and Statistics, National Safety Council
May 2000
Q. Of all accidental injuries/deaths, what percent are caused by accidental gunshot? Also, what percent of childhood injuries/deaths are caused by gunshot?

A. There is a lot of confusion about the number of deaths and injuries associated with firearms; especially with regard to children. This is true in part because various writers do not define what they mean by "children," i.e., what age range they include. It is also sometimes not made clear whether the writer is including unintentional injuries, suicide, homicide, or all three.

The National Safety Council analyzed the most recent death certificate data (1997), and found that there were 95,644 total unintentional-injury deaths of which 981 (1.0%) were due to unintentional firearms injuries. For children under 5 years old, there were 20 unintentional firearms deaths which accounted for 0.7% of all unintentional-injury deaths in that age group. Among those 5 to 9 years old, there were 28 unintentional firearms deaths; 1.8% of all unintentional-injury deaths. For 10 to 14 year olds, 94 unintentional firearms deaths were 5.1% of total unintentional-injury deaths. And for older teens, 15-19 years old, there were 164 unintentional firearms deaths; 2.5% of all unintentional-injury deaths.

Data on nonfatal injuries associated with firearms is somewhat more difficult to obtain. A 1995 study by Annest, Mercy, Gibson and Ryan found that for each unintentional firearms death there were about 12.8 nonfatal injuries. For homicides the ratio was about 3.3 nonfatal injuries per death and for suicides about 0.3 nonfatal injuries per death. Another study by Sinauer, Annest and Mercy (1996) estimated 34,485 persons were treated for unintentional, nonfatal firearm-related injuries in US emergency departments during the two-year period June 1, 1992, through May 31, 1994. They estimated that 2,906 (8.4%) of these cases involved children 0 to 14 years old.

It is also informative to note how firearms-related deaths are distributed by intentionality. Total firearms deaths in 1997 numbered 32,166 (excluding 270 legal intervention deaths). Of this total, only 981, or 3.0%, were unintentional (accidental); 54.6% (17,566) were suicide and 41.2% (13,252) were homicide. Another 367 deaths were categorized as "undetermined intent" which means that the coroner or medical examiner could not determine whether the death was homicide, suicide, or unintentional.

References

Annest, J.L., Mercy, J.A., Gibson, D.R., & Ryan, G.W. (1995). National estimates of nonfatal firearms-related injuries. Journal of the American Medical Association, 273(22), 1749-1754.

Sinauer, N., Annest, J.L., & Mercy, J.A. (1996). Unintentional, nonfatal firearm-related injuries: A preventable public health burden. Journal of the American Medical Association, 275(22), 1740-1743.
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