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 AUTHOR
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 376
Re: Gun ControlPage 16 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)


Yeah ! Indeed, .... Why, on god's green earth...
Would ... someone need that kind of weapon for personal use ?


Well, assault rifle sounds really scary, but an assault rifle is a semi-automatic rifle with a couple bells and whistles (e.g. a bayonet holder). Why would anyone own an assault rifle? The same reason why someone would own any semi-automatic rifle. You probably don't know this but you can hunt with an assault rifle and not make hamburger at the same time.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 377
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/29/2005 4:50:52 PM

bulldog
http://www.jointogether.org/gv/resources/facts/reader/0,2055,568615,00.html

"Each year an estimated 500,000 people die world-wide from small arms.

In 2000, there were 28,663 firearm deaths in the United States, including 16,586 (58%) suicides, 11,071 (39%) homicides (including 270 deaths due to legal intervention), and 1,006 (4%) undetermined/ unintentional firearm deaths."


Thanks bulldog, for quoting a source. (Nice one !)
~ Now, try rethinking it as ~> 28,393 Unjustifiable Firearm Deaths, annually in the US.
and ~> 207 ... due to legal intervention.



" ...58% of our gun related deaths are due to suicide. So, since you believe that access to guns is the cause of the deaths, would you also say that acess to guns are the cause of these suicides? And, without them, there would'nt be anymore suicides? "


That really ... would be, ... Faulty Reasoning .
Nope, haven't actually seen ... anyone ... suggest that.
Therefore, All Opposition,
... to this (nonexistent) assumption ... can Officially stop now.

Then ... Maybe ... we could start focusing on the whole,
... Guns make suicides So Effective, issue.

( ... But don't ask nursie,
... cus she doesn't see as many of those, working in that "emergency room",
... she does see a few 'jumpers' , 'slashers', and an endless stream of, 'pill poppers' though.
~ She gets to wave goodbye too, if they eventually walk back out. )



" If availability is truly the issue, then why do states like North and South Dakota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Utah, Nebraska, Alaska, etc., that have relatively "easy availability" have lower firearm death rates for children when compared to the five states with the lowest levels of gun ownership; Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Delaware? "


oh i don't know, ... (Wild Canadian guess) .... duh population densities ?
( ... please quote your source, anyway.)

Speaking of density, ...


" If the government kicked your door in, murdered your child, raped your women, you'd wish you had an AK-47, too. If you think that's an implausible situation, then I need only point you to 1930's Germany. "


' I need only point' ... you, ... to my previous posts on that topic.
( i know they were long bulldog, ... but just try. )

Nice vote of confidence in your government, btw.



" Our problem is cultural, not because we have the right to bear arms. "
...
" Again, our problem is cultural, not because of guns "


You're Right.
----> "The right to bear arms", ... Is ... cultural. And it leads to a ... Problem.



double cabin,
" If you can show any reasonable statistics and put them into a syllogism that show guns make us safer I'll certainly give them consideration. "

bulldog,
" For that to happen, we'd have to outlaw guns in the entire country, measure statistics, and then compare the two. ... Neither are provable. "


Good Plan ! ~ Lets go for it anyway !
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 378
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 6:05:55 AM


You're Right.
----> "The right to bear arms", ... Is ... cultural. And it leads to a ... Problem.


If you don't think guns cause crime and suicide then what's the problem?
 mycorosso
Joined: 1/11/2005
Msg: 379
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 9:43:30 AM
Here, Here!
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 380
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 9:46:52 AM
I think one of the problems "down here" is that responsible gun owners aren't willing to address the problems related to guns, and instead choose to focus only on their own behavior (hunting, for example.)
 mycorosso
Joined: 1/11/2005
Msg: 381
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 9:49:07 AM
And the "problem " with that is?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 382
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 9:53:57 AM
nittany, you don't understand what I'm saying. "Down here", a lot of people use guns for hunting because, number one, it's how they feed their families. A lot of people in the south are blue collar laborers. Me included.
I understand this.


"Up there" where you live, the only thing people use guns for are murder.
See, now this would be an example of a ridiculous thing to say, and quite frankly it discredits your opinion.


Number two, hunting is a sport, just like baseball. Not just anybody can do it. It takes skill, precision, and knowing how yo (shocker) SHOOT A GUN!!!! Good Lord, lady. Come spend a week with my family this winter. You'll get it.
I think you've missed my entire point. First of all, you have absolutely no idea of my opinion of hunting; you shouldn't assume. Second, I said that:
one of the problems "down here" is that responsible gun owners aren't willing to address the problems related to guns, and instead choose to focus only on their own behavior (hunting, for example.)
You're proving my point. Must you be condescending while you do it, though?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 383
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 10:08:17 AM
I apologize for the misunderstanding. My response was based on the understanding that you were responding to my point, as you addressed me specifically. When I said what I perceive to be one of the problems "down here" I was referring to the US (v. Canada) and I was simply stating my opinion.


why in the hell can't I carry a damn gun?
Ummm... you can? To clarify my position, I didn't say that you couldn't, nor did I say that you shouldn't be allowed.

Again, in my opinion, gun control issues are not directed solely at hunters. Most reasonable people actually understand that generally hunters are not the problem. However, I don't think it's practical for hunters to ignore the other problems in this country. I also don't think it's productive to hurl insults at someone who has a differing opinion. But hey, what do I know?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 384
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 10:16:22 AM
I wouldn't dream of assuming that you DO ignore the problem!
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 385
view profile
History
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 12:56:50 PM
Well, who needs to do that when we have Canada and the USA already.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 386
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 1:04:17 PM
Canada's been described as a country 5000 miles long and 30 miles wide. Most Canadians live in similar population density areas as Americans. Pretty weak argument mauser.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 387
view profile
History
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 1:09:39 PM
I think I have changed my mind on gun control,...

I also agree with Chris Rock,...have all the guns you want,...just restrict bullits,....
especially the teflon coated type that cut through kevlar like a hot knife through butter,..

just FYI,..to me,...what kind of game are those meant for again,...12 point bucks?


 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 388
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 1:22:28 PM
Actually given the number of guns out there now, that's pretty much the only effective means of reducing gun violence now. By controlling bullets the supply would run out in 5 years or so. Even if you stopped selling guns entirely, you'd have a huge problem for at least 50 years.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 389
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 3:18:49 PM
italianguy4you



" ~ "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft." ~ Exodus 22:2-3 "


Note: This does Not mean, ... Blow him away before sunrise.
or ... Sell him into slavery, ... after sunrise !

...any more than,
Exodus 22:18 ~ "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live. "
... means ... you can start gathering firewood, and start burning Wiccans.
(ohhh, ... there Was that, ... nasty episode ... in Salem though, ... huh ?
... wonder how they justified that. ... lemme guess, ... the 'Divine' laws of Moses. )



"When the strong man fully armed guardeth his own court, his goods are in peace."
~ Jesus Christ ~ [Luke 11:21.6]


Read the chapter. This was not a literal endorsement to arms. This was a Metaphor.




" "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword,
sell your cloak and buy one." ~ Jesus Christ [Luke 22:36].


This one, ... Was... literally advice to --> His disciples.
As ... self defense (?) against, ...their ... (potential, and Highly Probable) ... crucifixion (!)
It does kinda look though, ...
... like He's, First suggesting, Run ! with that, ... purse and bag.


And while we're quoting scripture,

" ~ Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. "
(Paul to the Romans 12:19)

" ~ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy
right cheek, turn to him the other also.
~ And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have
thy cloak also. ~ And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
~ Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not
thou away.
~ You have heard it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy naighbor, and hate thine
enemy. ~ But i say unto you, ... Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them whish despitefully use you and
persecute you;
~ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh
his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the
unjust. " (Jesus Christ ~ Matthew 5:38-45)

" ~ Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy."
" ~ Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. "
(Jesus Christ ~ Mathew 5:7&9)


* ... hon, ... If ... you choose to do so, ... you have to follow, ---> the Whole book,
not just, pick and choose, the ones ya like. ... It doesn't work that way.


( ... wow, ... i just went from sex toys to scripture quoting in 2 posts !
... slut to -----> ' church lady ' ??? )

... gotta get back to my, --> completely neglected life ... now.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 390
view profile
History
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 3:40:54 PM
I love that Chris Rock routine too, especially about the 1,000 dollar bullets.

" I'm savin' up right now %#$#%#% for a bullet...so watch your back ! "
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 391
view profile
History
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 4:53:10 PM
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 392
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 8:04:03 PM
yes, please.
 BuzWeaver
Joined: 6/25/2005
Msg: 393
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 8:23:05 PM
Number of people killed in car accidents from 1999 to 2000:

Persons Killed 41,821

Persons Injured 3,236,000

Fatal Crashes 37,140

In 2003 there were 6,328,000 car accidents in the US. There were 2.9 million injuries and 42,643 people were killed in auto accidents.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html


Cancer Statistics from NCI/ACS

http://www.cancure.org/statistics.htm

Estimated new cancer cases in the United States for the year 2002, according to the American Cancer Society (Year 2002 Surveillance Research from the American Cancer Society). It is estimated that about 555,500 Americans will die from cancer, corresponding to 1,500 deaths per day.



General Gun Violence Statistics

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

FACT:In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

• 17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
• 11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
• 762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
• and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 394
Gun Control
Posted: 7/30/2005 8:27:15 PM

I still don't see why we should punish law abiding citizens because of the acts of a few criminals. By your guys logic we should also ban hammers, swimming pools, kitchen knifes, and cars.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm certainly not suggesting punishing law-abiding citizens. (If you didn't mean me, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.)
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 395
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/31/2005 2:22:44 AM
In all, I have to say I have enjoyed participating in this debate, but I am in no way compelled to run out and destroy my personal weapons, and I don’t think anyone else is either.
In the US, abuse of alcohol, such as providing it for consumption by a minor, is a criminal act punishable by fine and imprisonment. The same goes for all other controlled substances and devices such as firearms. Anyone who knowingly provides assistance or materials such as weapons for use in the commission of a crime is likewise accountable and faces fines and imprisonment. There is accountability for all actions, and whether foreigners deem the measures inappropriate is immaterial.
It seems that the US is perceived to be somehow responsible for supplying the Canadian criminal element with illegal weaponry, yet you don’t hear of international charges being levied ... could it be that the claims are baseless?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 396
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/31/2005 2:40:16 AM
It seems that the US is perceived to be somehow responsible for supplying the Canadian criminal element with illegal weaponry, yet you don’t hear of international charges being levied ... could it be that the claims are baseless?


No, we are just too nice to do that. Plus Americans will never accept being judged in an International Court ( just look at the ICC, and most other international agreements) .


The U.S. has less stringent firearm regulations than Canada with many states having no licensing requirements. The firearms market in the U.S. is large, with an estimated 222 million firearms in legal circulation. The U.S. retail industry has been exploited as legally acquired firearms are being illegally diverted to Canadian traffickers and smuggled across the border. As well, secondary U.S. firearm markets, such as gun shows and flea markets, are significant sources of Canadian-destined illicit firearms. In many states, these secondary markets operate without any regulatory procedures to monitor and document firearm sales and/or exchanges.

source: http://www.cisc.gc.ca/AnnualReport2004/Cisc2004/firearms2004.html


It would be an impossible case, because restrictions would have to be placed on the American gun market- and no American politician wants to make that announcement.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 397
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/31/2005 4:00:36 AM

....many [US] states having no licensing requirements.

I read your source, and trust me when I say it is inaccurate. All states have mandatory registration for firearms, both handguns and long guns.

In many states, these secondary markets operate without any regulatory procedures to monitor and document firearm sales and/or exchanges.

Individuals who purchase / obtain firearms second hand from other individuals (non-dealers), are required by law to register their weapons. Failing to do so is itself a crime punishable by confiscation, fine AND imprisonment.
Your source is obviously inaccurate, and perhaps intentionlly so... The liberal agenda seems to be content with blaming others for their own failings. If you feel diplomacy is a reasonable response to aggressive acts of violence then by all means feel free to shield yourself from a hail of bullets with your vocabulary. Personally I find the shooting back option to be most appealing for me.
Since the debate seems to be parsed along international boundaries, I would presume to suggest that the Canadians expend their intellect and energy lobbying for stricter enforcement of their own gun laws.
I was in a convenient store yesterday and saw a poster indicating additional mandatory punishment for use of a firearm during the commision of a crime... 10-20-LIFE
10 years for displaying a firearm, 20 years for discharging a firearm, and 25 years to life for causing bodily injury or death with a firearm. I'm comfortable with that as a deterant, it seems to make non-hardcore criminal types think twice... Hardcore criminals will use any means necessary to accomplish their goals, and call me naive, but I don't think threat of additional paperwork is a reasonable deterant for US or Canadian born career criminals.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 398
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/31/2005 5:21:04 AM
I'd rather they not be armed in the first place, that way innocents don't pay the price. I am not trying to change American law either. It seems that that it's so deeply ingrained into the American psyche that it will never be possible.

I am just happy that I live where I live.

I work with the police often, and it's exceptionally rare ( outside of organized crime + biker gangs) to find an armed suspect.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 399
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/31/2005 5:56:46 AM

I work with the police often, and it's exceptionally rare ( outside of organized crime + biker gangs) to find an armed suspect.

So guns are not really a criminal issue, simply a moral objection? In your work with police, are you armed? Do you approach suspects as though they were armed, or do you simply walk in with your diplomacy fully****d and ready to open fire?
The same approach to personal saftey utilized by police officers the world over is the same premise we gun owners use for personal protection.... that premise being self preservation. Not everyone who owns a gun intends to shoot people, any more than everyone who is anti-gun wishes to be shot... I respect your right to your position and will do nothing to force my opinion on you or society as a whole. Is it asking to much for you to respect my position? We're not asking for YOU to give us the right to keep firearms, we already have it.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 400
view profile
History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 7/31/2005 6:14:46 AM
Mike,
I've lived in Texas, Kansas, Kentucky, California and Florida, and have purchased firearms in all of the states at gun shows. I have been compelled to register each and every weapon purchased, and assumed that doing so was in compliance with state law. As a collector / dealer, are you saying it's strictly voluntary?
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