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 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 426
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Re: Gun ControlPage 18 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)

Those flash suppressors and grenade launchers really add to the hunting experience

A flash suppressor does ONLY that, it suppresses the muzzle flash. Typically they are standard features on military style weapons as a defensive measure. They do nothing to add to the lethal capabilities of any weapon.
As for the grenade launchers, I completely agree with you. I can't tell you how many times I've been at the shooting range and some hot shot will squeeze off a grenade and blow up the entire row of targets, or how many times people have fired a grenade at a deer and blown up not just the deer, but all the trees in the immediate vicinity!

Give me a break! I have never seen a grenade launcher on any weapon outside of the military other than in the private collection of CLASS III collectors, or in the Smithsonian. There are weapons that are collected for historical purposes, and they are NOT available to the general public, a grenade launcher being one of those. In fact, I'm not aware of any place where you can legally purchase, own, or fire a grenade...
As for the number of rounds available in a magazine, there is approximately one-second lost between using a 30 round clip, and reloading a second 15 round clip. That portion of the bill was basically eyewash for those who have zero knowledge of semiautomatic weapons.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 427
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/2/2005 7:56:11 AM
Anton Bonifacic pulled his AR15 rifle off the rack and pointed out all that would have made his weapon illegal in America a week ago.

There were the flash suppressor, the 30-round magazine, the bayonet mount and the grenade launcher.

Now, all you need if you want to take a walk in the woods equipped like Rambo is about $1,000. In America, it's known as being "loaded for bear".

Mr Bonifacic's rifle is a "civilian" version of the US military's M16. It fires the same bullets and extra parts can be bought at most sports shops or gun shows, by mail-order and over the internet.

The military M16 can fire bursts of five rounds with one pull of the trigger. The difference with civilian assault-style rifles is that these must be only semi-automatic, requiring a squeeze on the trigger for each round.

The grenade launcher can be used legally to fire smoke shells, parachute flares and a "chalk dust training round".

In the Pocono hills in Pennsylvania, a two-hour drive from New York City, Mr Bonifacic and his colleague Scot Pfeiffer, who retired as a weapons instructor in the marines two months ago after a tour in Iraq, could use their rifles against deer once the hunting season opens next month, but probably won't.

source:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/19/wgun19.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/19/ixworld.html



Want some firepower ?

http://www.paladinarmory.com/MachineGuns.htm

Happiness is a warm gun....yes it is.

 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 428
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/2/2005 8:20:18 AM

There were the flash suppressor, the 30-round magazine, the bayonet mount and the grenade launcher.

Let's review...
Flash suppressor - Suppresses muzzle flash, does not increase of decrease the destructive power of the weapon
30 round magazine - Not illegal to own, only illegal to manufactur and sell CURRENTLY. Think asbestos... cannot be manufactured or installed in residential or commercial construction, but if currently installed may stay as is.
Bayonet mount - Someone turns a gun into a spear and you take issue with it? I would think you would be lobbying for all guns to have this capability!
Grenade Launcher - I assure you he was not John Q. Public.

The grenade launcher can be used legally to fire smoke shells, parachute flares and a "chalk dust training round".

Ever hear of anyone bagging a deer with a chalk dust round? These are NOT grenades, they are more novelties than anything else.
You can purchase smoke shells, parachute flares and dust rounds for any 12 gauge shot gun. In fact all flare guns I've seen are 12 gauge... Hunting deer with a smoke shell from a grenade launcher would be as effective as hunting them with a rock. Comparing novelty usage of a federally regulated weapon with the requirements of those used by serious hunters is... well... silly
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 429
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/2/2005 8:25:03 AM
That wasn't what I was comparing.

If you have a grenade launcher, all you are missing is the grenades.

I am not talking responsible gun owners and collectors - they are not the problem. The ability for psychos to get a hold of these weapons is what I am suggesting is the problem.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 430
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/2/2005 8:51:54 AM
Monty
Gasoline, dish detergent, empty bottles and rags are much more readily available than grenades, with far more destructive potential. When was the last time you heard of someone being killed by a grenade launcher outside of a military engagement?
It's radical unrealistic comparisons such as this that diminish any valid points you might have from your side of the issue.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 431
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/2/2005 9:33:31 PM
Well as much as i hate to interupt this lil penis measuring contest ...
(cept you, Monty, cus i know, you don't have to, not when ya have that, you know ... )
.. but anyway ...

MajMike



" The studies you cite from the medical sources are all efforts funded by anti-gun agencies and many of them (like Kellerman's stats about guns in homes) have been discredited (or shown to be questionable) by many sources other than gun owners."


You are referring to my quoted sources ... ( ? )

~ Journal of Trauma
~ Annu.Rev Public Health
~ Annals of Emergency Medicine
~ New England Journal of Medicine
~ American Journal of Public Health
~ American Association of Suicidology
~ Archives of Pediatric & Adolescent Medicine
~ CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report


... " efforts funded by anti-gun agencies " (?) (!) Really Mike, ... i would expect a " statistician " to know (!) that publication in respectable Journals, (like the ones i quoted) maintain the highest levels of examination and critique. Studies with inherently
flawed methodology never make it to publication. So, ... any claims, as to the agenda of potential funders, would in practice, be irrelevant. The fact is, that the 'respectable' Journals are best known, ( on that that very snobbish, and competitive, hierarchy of scientific 'respectability' ) to be least likely to falsify data, and engineer results, to suit the potential agenda of devious funders. Consider, the potential loss of 'credibility', and therefore, loss of future funding, in general.

... As to, "research results having been, discredited"... by many sources other than gun owners" ... i would simply ask you to provide these "sources " so that we all may consider them.

i ... Can ... kinda understand your emotional response, however, ...
... in light, ... of a few of your previous statements;



(Msg: 465)
~ " My daughter has a BB rifle and pistol which we keep and store just like mine
for her to build good habits around firearms. "
(Msg: 481)
~ " I own 19 firearms, mostly pistols ... "
~ " ... now I like cowboy action shooting with the old six-guns,
double-barreled shotguns and Winchester's. "
(Msg: 493)
~ " p.s. Also, if you want my guns you are going to have to come and get them, bullets first. "


... but Mike, Please don't ... Shoot ... the messenger. ;)



" I will be happy to compare my understanding of statistics and the sources I cite with yours whenever you desire. "


~ Your " understanding of statistics " has already been clearly exhibited. And the actual
' statistical calculation of data ' comprises only one aspect of a scientific research endeavor .
~ In my opinion, your 'expertise' might best be limited strictly to the calculation of numbers. Given the lack of understanding that you have been exhibiting concerning general research design, internal and external validity requirements, requisite knowledge pertaining to methodology, ... and specifically, a consistently demonstated pattern of difficulty with logic, as shown by your previous selection of variables as a potential subject for research comparison.
~ Any interpretation of data rendered by your calculations would truly be best left
... to those who are better qualified to draw any potential conclusions.



" Your attack on my statement shows me your real purpose here, to try and force your views on everyone using invalid statistics and sources while dismissing any data not from your 'approved' sources. "


" Force " my views ? ~ This is a discussion board. i have shared my opinion and presented information from " reliable " sources that support that opinion. As to the validity of statistics, i again suggest, that you step down and leave that analysis to those who are better educated and generally more competent.
~ And for the record, ... i am quite comfortable with your lack of acceptance of my view.



" ... 'facts' and stats used by the anti-gun crowd are questionable and quite likely just as 'manufactured' as most govt propaganda seeing as how the Clinton's were involved. "


~ Now, ... you may want to suspend that paranoid and highly emotional bias when you choose to evaluate research conclusions. This state of mind is generally viewed as a hinderance to the maintenace of any level of scientific objectivity. ;)



" Also, guns didn't "originate with a minority", they have been present in all parts of society from the founding of America. I hope you weren't using Michael Bellesiles's discredited book "Arming America", especially since even he has admitted making up some of the 'historical' sources he used. "


You're referring to my response to yourrrrr , ... apples and 'twinkies' comparison ???



~ lola (Msg: 792)
" ... the relative risks to an individual who chooses to recieve health care, ... versus the risks posed to an individual that are the consequence of living in a society containing a large number of guns, which originated with a minority. "


~ Clearly, i was commenting on the Present time and the Present ...
health and safety consequences to the Majority, originating from the exercise
of certain ' individual rights ' by the priveleged " minority of Gunowners "

... As for my source, ... it had already been stated.



lola ~ (Msg: 776)
" As of 1994, 44 million Americans owned more than 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25% of adults owned firearms. Seventy-four percent (74%) of gun owners possessed two or more firearms. " - National Institute of Justice, May 1997


i've never actually read, " Michael Bellesiles's " book, "Arming America". My general preference would be the exploration of 'credible sources' ... rather than ... 'book sellers', ... in any endeavor or quest towards understanding the potential etiology of specific social problems.



" Minds are like parachutes, they only function properly when open. "


Well, just when you thought it wasn't possible ...
... here IS something we ... Can .... agree on.



" Perhaps we will meet in another forum where progress will be possible, but it is obvious it will not be here. "


"progress" ? ... In, ... what goal, or aim, Mike ?



" To this thread and it's participants, I say adieu. "


<----------- (Tips her hat and smiles, ... at the ... lone gunman/statistician,
. . . . . . . . . as he rides out on his very large, ... very slow, horse.)
. . . . . . . . . ~ Salut, ... A la prochaine !
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 432
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/2/2005 11:46:59 PM
timpommell


Lola
These are from the stats YOU posted;

(As of 1994, 44 million Americans owned more than 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25% of adults owned firearms. Seventy-four percent (74%) of gun owners possessed two or more firearms. " - National Institute of Justice, May 1997)

and

( In 2002, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,108 )

so to answer this question;


( '?' - number of people significantly helped be gun ownership )

Roughly 96 million (give or take 26%) The sense of safety goes a long way towards the preservation of mental health.

( '?' - number of people significantly harmed in gunownership households or by
living in the presence of the enormous number of guns now circulating in the US,
( due to that minority gun owners). )

17,108 or 1.8%, which by your own admission were (at least in part) likely to seek another method of self destruction.
So, to answer your question, 98.2% of gun owners benefit from ownership, while 1.8% experience harm. However, of the 1.8% a significant number would have experienced the same fate even without the availability of a firearm, so to be completely fair, the 1.8% is an exaggerated number.



~ ~ ~ What ... the ... f*** ( ! ) ... " 17,108 or 1.8% " harmed ? (-----> 2002 !!!)

And you're strictly calculating suicides !
.. uhhhh, consider ... murder, ...accidental deaths & injuries ? -----> PER YEAR ???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Tim, ... please try that again . ~ And ... This time ---------> minus the alcohol !

Oh, wait a second ! ... i have seen this kinda thing before !
Do you work for the NRA ??? ... do ya ? ... C'mon , really ... do ya ???
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 433
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/3/2005 6:10:18 AM
Come come Miss Lola, I was just having a bit of fun at your expense... (in an alcohol free state I might add).
The statistical date you and Mike cite is incredible, but with both of you selecting data that speaks only to your personal position, it's difficult for anyone to find either argument compelling.
There are things that can and should be done to promote gun safety, and I don't think additional control is the answer. The reason is.... gun control activists seem (by their actions / statements) to feel that criminals will somehow abide by the additional gun laws while in the commision of their crimes. HELLO.... these are criminals! Do you honestly think that some criminal is going to look at his weapon and say "Damn, can't kill that convenient store clerk tonight, this gun has a flash suppressor on it!" ?
If you make folding stocks illegal, then they'll simply saw them off. If you make high capacity magazines illegal, they will simply buy or steal more of the smaller capacity. Whether you carry two 30 round magazies or six 10 round magazines, you still have the same firepower.
I think the only reasonable approach to the safety issue is to abandon the concept of disarming the general public.... it simply isn't going to happen and it's a very long and rocky road to nowhere. If you were to expend your energy lobbying for mandatory trigger locks, additional liability for owners, or something that does not disrupt the basis of our governments foundation, then I think you might have a shot .
Whether you choose the banner of extreme right or extreme left, you're still an extremist, and viewed by the majority of the general public as a crack pot. You're far too intelligent to waste your efforts on extremism.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 434
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/3/2005 6:17:12 PM
All I need to protect my home up here is a cell phone....and my Louisville slugger.

Batter up !
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 435
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/3/2005 7:20:01 PM

All I need to protect my home up here is a cell phone....and my Louisville slugger.

Batter up !

Probably wouldn't hurt to invest in some of those nifty bracelets Wonder Woman wears, that way if you can't find your bat to deflect the bullets, you can always use your bling bling.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 436
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/4/2005 4:48:16 AM
Just to clarify, I have no problem with gun ownership; just think there should be controls as well. Now, I'm not saying that they would solve every problem (see below) but it doesn't make sense for people to dismiss valid issues by saying "people for gun control seem to be under the delusion that criminals will register their guns."

Man holding daughter shot in apparent road rage

Thursday, August 4, 2005; Posted: 6:37 a.m. EDT (10:37 GMT)

BROCKTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- A man lifting his infant daughter out of his car was killed in an apparent case of road rage by a motorist "who obviously exploded" and shot him four times at close range in front of dozens of witnesses, authorities said.

The victim's 10-month-old girl was covered with blood but uninjured when police found her in a car seat on the floor of the vehicle.

Walter R. Bishop, 60, who was taking medication for depression, was arrested Tuesday and charged with first-degree murder in the death of 27-year-old Sandro Andrade. He pleaded innocent and was ordered held without bail; a hearing was scheduled for August 26.

Plymouth District Attorney Timothy J. Cruz said Bishop had made a calculated decision to "shoot a man in cold blood in broad daylight on the streets of Brockton."

Police Chief Paul Studenski described it as a case of road rage.

Bishop's attorney, Kevin Reddington, said Andrade had provoked his client during a traffic altercation.

"We have a homicide that resulted from a circumstance where somebody picked a fight with an individual who obviously exploded," Reddington said. Bishop, a former soldier and security guard, had recently begun taking two medications for depression, he said.

Bishop told investigators he was driving his wife to the train station when Andrade's vehicle backed toward him on Main Street, Cruz said. The two exchanged heated words.

"He said his wife was scared, and he said he was angry at that encounter," Cruz said of Bishop. "He said he made up his mind right there that he had to do something."

After dropping his wife off, he allegedly returned to the scene of the confrontation, pointed a handgun through an open window and fired, police said.

"Pop! Pop! Pop! Pop! Four shots. It sounded like a cap gun," Louis McPhee, the manager of a car wash across the street, told The Boston Globe. "The guy was lying there in his own blood with a hole in his head and his arm still on the baby."

Bishop left before police arrived, but witnesses gave investigators his license plate number and police found him at his home.

Police said Bishop has a valid handgun license.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 437
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/4/2005 5:22:42 AM

Police said Bishop has a valid handgun license.

Leaping forward into possible defense assumptions; "the medication made me do it..."
There is a requirement to suspend driving privelages when certain medications / treatments are prescribed, and I believe most states require the physicians to notify the DMV. I'm not aware of any such requirement for gun licensing, but it certainly seems reasonable to impliment. Granted not everyone carries a weapon, but not everyone drives either.... seems practical to add that question to the list.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 438
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/4/2005 11:10:37 AM
That certainly would seem reasonable...
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 439
Gun Control
Posted: 8/9/2005 6:08:07 AM

Besides guns dont kill people people kill people


Larry from Iowa, that's a great line. You're very witty. Can I borrow that sometime?
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 440
Gun Control
Posted: 8/9/2005 6:18:46 AM

Think asbestos... cannot be manufactured or installed in residential or commercial construction, but if currently installed may stay as is.


Just some off topic information here....


Asbestos is not illegal to install in any shape or form. This is a common misunderstanding of the law. It is not illegal and is still in many many many building materials. The primary force behind not using it is the litigation possibilities and the removal problems down the road. It is NOT illegal.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 441
Gun Control
Posted: 8/9/2005 6:41:20 AM
And by "litigation possibilities and removal problems down the road," what you're really referring to is the danger it poses, and the likelyhood of having to spend money because people are getting sick, no? (I know, an installer would just consider the dollars and cents, but this is really what we're talking about.)
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 442
Gun Control
Posted: 8/9/2005 6:44:13 AM
the danger of asbestos in building materials is virtually insignificant. Only and ONLY when it is friable does it pose a harm. The concentration levels to actually cause harm must be quite high. The majoriy of clearance tests only do a fiber count, not an asbestos count (thus tests during the winter months are much higher due to wools etc). I would venture that a large percentage of the people on pof walks into a building today that has asbestos in it. No harm, no foul.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 443
Gun Control
Posted: 8/9/2005 6:45:03 AM
No foul, no litigation / removal problems.

My mistake, never mind, I don't mean to get off topic. I just find it odd when people take the time to actually ADVOCATE for something like asbestos.
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 444
Gun Control
Posted: 8/9/2005 6:51:05 AM
I will gladly advocate for asbestos. The amount of harm caused by asbestos is small. The poor men and women that suffer from asbestosis etc were exposed in extreme! levels. If you objectively weigh the benefits and uses of asbestos against the harm it causes....but again youre right..too much money is being made now to ever reverse those opinions
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 445
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History
Gun Control
Posted: 8/10/2005 6:12:10 AM
Herk

You might want to double check your facts. The phasing out of asbestos as a supplimental material in building construction was completed a couple of years ago..... I believe the last item to contain asbestos was roof mastic. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember the phasing plan was scheduled for completion in 2002.
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 446
Gun Control
Posted: 8/10/2005 7:40:13 AM
Tim,

I am a certified class 2 asbestos manager. My facts are completely accurate
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 447
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History
Gun Control
Posted: 8/10/2005 9:12:51 AM
Passionate Cynic



" Fact: Criminals are the ones that break laws, not law abiding citizen's. "

..... "There are laws galore about keeping guns locked up.
Yet hundreds of people are still killed every year because someone
didn't lock their guns up. "


~ THAT ... Is ... just ... Criminal !



" ... make the penalties for gun crimes as unbearably harsh as possible. "
.... In most states murder is punishable by death. Yet this does nothing to stop murder.
Anyone with good sense and logic can understand what I am saying. "


~ ,,,,,,, uhmmm . . .



" The only way to stop death by guns is to totally remove them from society. THAT'S IT !! "


... that's true. ~*~*~*~
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 448
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History
Gun Control
Posted: 8/10/2005 12:52:58 PM
I think it has far more to do with the numbers of guns combined with the cultural attitude towards them.

In the USA, as we can see from the majority of pro-gun posters, they are seen as almost a basic right. Cuturally and artistically they are seen as a solution. It's that " High Noon" type of mentality that you can see all the way back through American media, almost to it's roots.

You can go from " The Great Train Robbery" and fast forward to the latest rap CD - and guns are seen as "a solution", as "power", and as " manly".

They are almost, by definition, American.

That is something that doesn't exist here. Guns are not "promoted" by our cultural values. Actually, some Canadian cultural icons ( like the RCMP ) are seen as valued because they DIDN'T ( historically) use weapons.

(The source of many a chuckle and guffaw on "Due South", if anyone watched that show. I loved it.)

It's the same thing with our military. We see them ( mentally) as people who will only use guns when needed, and expect them not to almost. We had some incredible snipers in Afghanistan that did some stunningly lethal work, including the longest combat kill ever made.

The American army wanted to give them some commendations, and our government intitially refused. We were involved in a very lethal ( for the enemy) firefight in Yugoslavia, where we saved lives because one of our units dug in and wiped out a significant force of men attacking them - after first warning them that they would take action if they were attacked.

It was barely brought up, and took perhaps two or three years to be even mentioned.

If your mindset sees weapons as needed, and as a positive thing - then you throw them into the cultural dynamic as an added factor. They are part of the fabric of your culture, with the inevitable result.

If they are removed from that fabric, and strictly controlled, they are far less likely to be lethal due to their absence.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 449
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History
Gun Control
Posted: 8/10/2005 2:06:54 PM
Herk
This is from Info-pedia.com


Asbestos is the name for a group of fibrous minerals that are mined and mixed into building materials.
Asbestos is very resistant to heat and chemicals.
Asbestos has been used in a wide range of manufactured goods including floor and ceiling tiles, coatings, texturing materials and thermal insulation.
Currently, asbestos is used only in products where another material has not been found to replace it.

As far as I know, roof mastic was the last, and most A/E firms, at the request of owners, specify non ACM's for all new commercial work and have done so for years. (I'm a PM for one of the largest A/E firms in the world.)

Technically this isn't off post since it was a reference point several posts back.
 Herkimer
Joined: 5/17/2005
Msg: 450
Gun Control
Posted: 8/10/2005 2:09:03 PM
operative word is REQUEST not ILLEGAL
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