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 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 501
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Re: Gun ControlPage 21 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)
It's a better defensive weapon, but only against an armed opponent - which I won't be facing as much as you will be ( under the same conditions)

I test that every day here, no guns - no need for them for defense.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 502
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:34:12 AM

It's a better defensive weapon, but only against an armed opponent - which I won't be facing as much as you will be ( under the same conditions)

Since you're gazing into your crystal ball, what does it tell you about your chances of changing the structure of the goverment of a foreign country?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 503
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 9:08:19 AM


Tha baseball bat is there to give me the five or ten minutes of protection I need before the squad car pulls up at my door. It is not there to attack with, it's purely defensive. My first goal is to dissuade the criminal from staying, the second to make sure he is not going to have much of a chance to hurt me.


Oddly enough you can use a gun for the same purpose. You also have a better chance against someone who has a gun. As for fighting someone with a knife using a baseball bat you just better hope that the knife wielder doesn't know that he can defeat you my getting in close (which is pretty easy once you take a swing at him).
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 504
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 9:31:56 AM
Banning guns will not make them disappear. Do you have a plan for making them disappear? Maybe David Copperfield can pull it off.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 505
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 11:07:20 AM
DID YOU KNOW?

I love to do research especially if I am in a discussion about which I feel I don't have enough facts for my comfort zone,...anyway,..here is what I found out,...

There is a site dedicated to Americans who believe in gun ownership for self defence,...
http://www.americanselfdefence.com on this site or at

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.html .......you can read a copy of the
SELF DEFENCE ACT OF 2001

which I found most illuminating,...especially some of their statistics,....like

every year more than 2,400.000 use guns for self defence
or more than 6,500 people every single day,....

of these 2,400.000 about 192,00 are by women defending themselves from sexual abuse
(abuse was their word,..not assault,..or attack but abuse)

acording to this site every year law abiding citizense seeking only to provide for their families defense,...are ROUTINELY prosecuted for brandishing a fire arm in self defense

there are a number of examples but this one actually answered the question I had which is,...in our country I know you may only use equal force to protect yourself and only in a last resort situation if the assailant is able to retreat you may not prevent him from doing so by chasing him down and exacting revenge,...it seems you too are subject to those rules,...

for example,..a Mr R Biggs of Goldsbourough North Carolina was arrested in 1990 for shooting an intruder,....who was one of 4 that entered his home,..ransacked it and then assaulted Mr Biggs with a base ball bat,....when Biggs attempted to escape through the back door ,...(keeping in mind it was 4 to 1,...not to mention HIS HOME),...the four chased him down,..Biggs turned and shot one of his assailants in the stomach,....

Now if ever there was what to me seems like a clear cut case of self defence,...
this would be it,....and apparently if you agreed with me
we would both be wrong because,....

Biggs was arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon,...a Felony,...
and the four who broke into his home were all charged with misdemeanors,....

I did not make this up you can check for yourself and there are many more examples,....

So how safe do you feel now,....with that gun by your side for protection?,.....

To my way of thinking you have 2 ways to go here,....either you get on the bandwagon and change your laws so you won't have to go to jail forever because you used your second amendment right to bear arms against some little sh**t who just broke into your house,...or

you figure out a way to reduce the threat against you,..your home,..and your family,...

so much for the idea you can just blow 'em away eh?

apparently you can own the gun,...you can even carry the thing with the right paperwork
but just fire it and see how free you are,....

as gun owners,...shouldn't you know this stuff already?......


 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 506
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 12:41:52 PM
are you sure you know the law in your state of VA,...evanism?,....

it's no skin off my nose but you might want to double check,....
http://home.eastlink.net/~haskman/va_law.html

from what I read on this site your laws are very complicated on this issue and there are a lot of rules that apply,....

it doesn't matter to me if you go on blind faith and what you think you should be able to do,..

I will never find myself in a situation where it concerns me one way or another,...

your state has,..Justified and excuseable defence,...defence of others,..and malice,...
right to arm,....and defence of property,.....

laws regulating posession and use of fire arms,...

concealed weapons laws(and the list of what constitutes a concealed weapon is quite extensive)and the punishment for violators

carrying firearms in a public place without a specific permit,...and their definition of same

firearms prohibited on school property, (this one comes with a 5 year mandatory sentence)

posessions of firearms by a felon,...

posession of a firearm while in posession of certain drugs,...(excluding weed) looks like you have de criminalized weed already,....(INTERESTING),...and on and on it goes,....

as far as all ow the self defence involving weapons there is a little thing called

"RETREAT TO THE WALL",....this is applied in ALL gun related cases,...
when self defence**** IS JUSTIFIED****,....

couldn't hurt to doble check on the laws you live under eh?,...
you know before you get a few good rounds into Mr Scumbags head,.....


 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 507
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 3:24:41 PM
Since you're gazing into your crystal ball, what does it tell you about your chances of changing the structure of the goverment of a foreign country?


I am not trying to. Read all my posts, and you will see that,

I am just trying to say our society has managed to do what many Americans claim is impossible.

I see that every day.

As to the close in comment, The bat is to make sure he doesn't get within range to do damage - most people breaking in are not expecting an "armed" opponent, and are quickly put off by that fact. I am not going to attack, unless attacked.

Remember, I work in the security business. The number of home invasions in Montreal (where people come into a place that actually has someone in it) is almost zero. The number of armed people that do that is even less.

I know of perhaps three armed home invasions in the last five years - in a city of about one million ( including suburbs) .

Those are pretty good odds, in my book.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 508
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 5:18:06 PM
Monty
I still don't get it.... you want all of us to give up our right to own guns so that we can be just like you? Suppose we don't want to be just like you.... would that be ok?
We have gun laws; it is not illegal to own a gun. It is illegal to use a firearm in the commission of a crime. When criminals use a tool to commit a crime, the crime was not inspired by the existence of the tool, I dare say there was most likely another objective beyond riding into town with six guns a blazin... If criminals want to smash a window they don't look around for a federally approved brick, they find whatever they can to smash the window. Apparently we don't have conscientious, courteous criminals, that you seem to have in Canada we just have the garden variety type that don't really care if using a gun carries an additional criminal charge...
The simple fact is, if you remove all the guns from law abiding citizens, then only the criminals would have guns… call me crazy but that’s a little like cutting off your leg to cure athletes foot.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 509
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 5:26:00 PM

"RETREAT TO THE WALL",....this is applied in ALL gun related cases,...
when self defence**** IS JUSTIFIED****,....

Marita
You might want to triple check. In the state of Florida you are not required to retreat / evade / avoid / runaway from an assailant. If you feel your life or property is in danger, "click click boom". Ironically muggings, home invasion, assault, etc have all been declining since the law went into place.... go figure...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 510
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 5:33:31 PM
actually in my earlier response,...my answer was specific to the state he (evan) lived in which is VA

Floriday I never looked up,..but I will,..thanks

reading all the words instead of skimming,...before you rebutt may help you avoid little miss speaks like this.



The generic post with information came from the web site listed which is the self defense group,...you can verify this yourself,....and in fact you can only become a paid member of this site,...if you live in the United States,....
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 511
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 5:36:56 PM

Marita
You might want to triple check. In the state of Florida you are not required to retreat / evade / avoid / runaway from an assailant. If you feel your life or property is in danger, "click click boom".
Lotta people in prison right now because they looked at these situations and laws so simplistically.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 512
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 5:37:34 PM

Ironically muggings, home invasion, assault, etc have all been declining since the law went into place.... go figure...


Of course these crimes were declining before this law went into effect. As Mark Twain said, "Lies, damn lies and statistics."
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 513
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 5:56:00 PM
seems you are correct for the most part,...

Bill 39-0 was passed by the Florida legislature only last week and although,...
GW's baby brother your good governer hasn't signed it yet I'm sure he will,...

and once this "stand your ground law" is officially on the books,...acording to some of the sites I checked and there are a lot of them,....the wild wild west will be back in Florida,...

This should also increase the number of people who will move there taking all their guns with them,...I read that on a chat line,...better you than me,....

maybe you should move Disneyland first,.....and I hope all the aged snow birds that spend the winters there with you (coming from Canada) will be warned about this first,...

I know of more than a few Germans who re -considered going there on vacation after that couple were shot and killed their first day of vacation,....can't remember the details,...maybe someone else can,....

I do know this much,...knowing this I personally will give florida a pass,....

'course with the price of flights going higher and higher due to the increases in gas prices,..
who can aford to fly anyway?
sorry but y'all scare me,...good luck to you though,.....
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 514
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 6:39:48 PM

Monty
I still don't get it.... you want all of us to give up our right to own guns so that we can be just like you? Suppose we don't want to be just like you.... would that be ok?
We have gun laws; it is not illegal to own a gun. It is illegal to use a firearm in the commission of a crime. When criminals use a tool to commit a crime, the crime was not inspired by the existence of the tool, I dare say there was most likely another objective beyond riding into town with six guns a blazin... If criminals want to smash a window they don't look around for a federally approved brick, they find whatever they can to smash the window. Apparently we don't have conscientious, courteous criminals, that you seem to have in Canada we just have the garden variety type that don't really care if using a gun carries an additional criminal charge...
The simple fact is, if you remove all the guns from law abiding citizens, then only the criminals would have guns… call me crazy but that’s a little like cutting off your leg to cure athletes foot.


Again, I realize you cannot give them up - and have said that many times here. I do realize that, and it's not going to ever change.

We don't have " conscientious, courteous criminals" here either. They are the same scumbags you have. We just have ones that don't have a very easy access to guns thanks to the controls we place on them. That was the original topic here.

It's not about removing all guns, either. I can get one in about a month, if I wanted one. I would have zero problem, aside from paying for it ( and all the protective things you need to store it).

We exert a very strong control over them. Handguns are almost impossible to have legally.


Some statistics in comparison.


North America: Canada: Crime

Adults prosecuted: 377,667 (1999) [7th of 33]
(per capita): 11.51 per 1000 people [8th of 33]

Assault victims: 2.3% (1999) [5th of 21]

Assaults: 233,517 (2000) [6th of 58]
(per capita): 7.56 per 1000 people

Believe in police efficiency: 87% [2nd of 17]

Bribe payers index: 8.1 [3rd of 19]

Bribery victims: 0.4% (1999) [8th of 17]

Burglaries: 293,416 (2000) [8th of 55]
(per capita): 7.09 per 1000 people

Car thefts: 160,268 (2000) [6th of 56]
(per capita): 4.88 per 1000 people [7th of 55]

Convicted: 295,912 (1999) [10th of 57]
(per capita): 9.02 per 1000 people [12th of 56]

Jails: 212 (1999) [15th of 63]
(per capita): 0.00 per 1000 people [19th of 62]

Manslaughters: 52 (2000) [24th of 44]
(per capita): 0.00 per 1000 people [40th of 43]

Death penalty - Abolition for ordinary crimes: 1976 [6th of 21]

Death penalty - Last executed: 1962 [20th of 56]

Murders with firearms: 165 (1999) [12th of 32]
(per capita): 0.00 per 1000 people [20th of 32]

Perception of safety - Burglary: 66% [7th of 17]

Perception of safety - Walking in dark: 82% [3rd of 15]

Police: 56,020 (2000) [16th of 48]
(per capita): 1.70 per 1000 people [42nd of 48]

Prisoners: 36,024 prisoners [35th of 164]
(per $ GDP): 0.03 prisoners per $1 million [132nd of 161]

Prisoners - Female: 5.0% [45th of 134]

Prisoners - Per capita: 116 per 100,000 people [73rd of 164]

Prisoners - Pre-trial detainees: 21.1% [103rd of 143]

Prisoners - Share of prison capacity filled: 94.3% [99th of 128]

Property crime victims: 10.4% (1999) [6th of 21]

Rape victims: 0.8% (1999) [8th of 21]

Rapes: 24,049 (2000) [3rd of 66]
(per capita): 0.73 per 1000 people [5th of 65]

Reporting to police: 48% [11th of 17]

Robberies: 27,012 (2000) [14th of 64]
(per capita): 0.82 per 1000 people [22nd of 64]

Suicide rates in ages 25-34: 18.0 per 100000 people [8th of 17]

Suicide rates in ages 35-44: 19.2 per 100000 people [8th of 17]

Suicide rates in ages 45-54: 18.5 per 100000 people [10th of 17]

Suicide rates in ages 55-64: 15.1 per 100000 people [11th of 17]

Suicide rates in ages 65-74: 12.1 per 100000 people [14th of 17]

Suicide rates in ages above 75: 12.2 per 100000 people [15th of 17]

Total crime victims: 23.8% (1999) [7th of 21]

Total crimes: 2,476,520 (2000) [7th of 61]
(per capita): 75.49 per 1000 people [12th of 60]

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ca/Crime


We have less firearms, particularly of the defensive ( handgun) type.

We have less police per capita.

We have no death penalty.

We have less prisons, and prisoners.

We have no "drug war".

Yet, strangely enough, we are living in a relatively peaceful law abiding country that ( by most American standards) is "defenseless" against criminals.

THAT was where I was pointing too, and I do think that strong gun control has a lot to do with it. There are certainly other factors, primarily cultural and demographic - but I do not think that they have as much influence as that easy access to firearms does.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 515
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:06:56 PM
Here is a question for someone out there,...

explain to me why,...and stipulating to the facts that at the rate of 1 in 4 american homes there are firearms,...a statistic that is both common knowledge and verifyable to pretty much anyone,...and that so many of you gun owners seem to believe you have the right to blow anyone's head off, for just entering your home without permission,....that there are still more home invasions than in any other country on the planet,...

You either have very brave,..or incredibly stupid robbers (and I know than most criminals aren't candidates for Mensa but) if they take the risk of being killed by invading your home with with the intent of walking away with your TV set,....or whatever.

you would think,...or at least I did that if there are so many of you who keep loaded guns at the ready,....that there would also be a lot less home invasions,...so why aren't there?

why aren't all the guns,..kept by all you for protection,..protecting you?

and how many more guns will it take to become the deterrent that all these guns are supposed to be?

and why,... if they are indeed for protection not for revenge (excluding the hunting and target practice ones) are more people not opting for,...

stun guns or bean bag guns or pepper spray or any other form of protection that is considered non leathal?

Which BTW, FYI are also considered in most states (as far as liscencing,laws regulating etc),...the same as the leathal ones,....

I would hate to live with the death of anyone on my consience,...even a criminals,...
but debilitating someone until the cops got there would deffinately allow me to sleep at night and I dare say even make me feel good about myself,...but that's just me,...

PS Monty,...I think we could do this round robbin of trying to explain what we ARE in fact saying until the cows come home and most likely end up in this same spot,...

PPS,...you should run for some political office,...I'd vote for you,...
I like the way you think and express yourself,...
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 516
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:06:56 PM
Apparently we have the right to keep and bear arms, but not the right to use them in self-defense. Reminds me of the old Russian joke: In Russia they have the right to freedom of speech, but they don't have the right to freedom after speech.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 517
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:11:05 PM


evanism
" In VA where I live you cannot use deadly force to someone to protect property. You can use deadly force to protect your life. But trust me, if some one breaks in they're getting killed and by some strange chance regardless if they entered with or without a gun they will have one in their hand with a spent shell prior to the police showing up. To easy to do since there are so many guns available without "paper" on them. Hell, cops have been doing that for years. "
... " Thats why I load the first couple rounds with snake shot, a couple hundred teeny tiny BB's, that'll slow his ass down enough to get off a few good rounds into Mr. Scumbag's head. "


~ So much for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. -
. . And good luck with, That.. plan, btw.




Ashley1861
" I keep a loaded machete by the bed - my wish is to leave the uninvited without an excuse to visit anyone else on a dark dreary night.... get up close and personal "
" ... I am strongly FOR personal protection guns.. "


hi Ashley,

. . i keep a lil something by my bed too,( just in case). It's one of my Secret Weapons.
It can't kill anybody. i have no desire to kill anybody. It would be extremely effective in
easily putting someone outta commission for awhile if he did, "get up close and personal".
. . Then the fun of just watching the police eventually haul his a$$ off to jail !! ~
(sorry, can't tell ya what it is, ...cus it really wouldn't be my "Secret" weapon anymore)

btw, some stats,

>>" A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used to commit a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than to be used in self-defense. "
- 1) A Kellerman, et al.,.... Journal of Trauma, August 1998;
--- 2) Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu.Rev Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40.)


>>" People who keep guns at home have a 72% greater chance of being killed by firearms and are 3.44 times more likely to commit suicide than those who do not keep guns at home."
Annals of Emergency Medicine, Vol 41, p. 771



marita_b
" ... maybe you should move Disneyland first, . . "


~ ~ Interesting and informative posts, btw ! ~ ~
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 518
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:14:51 PM
LOL,....Kind of goofy isn't it Count,...but it gets even goofyer,...

I have learned some very interesting things today,....
one is ,..in Texas Bush passed a CCW law that is very liberal and states you can even take your gun to church,....

however the firearm regulation,...states speciffically where even with a CCW permit you can NOT take your gun,...like schools,..airport,..and a bunsh of others including CHURCH,...

I wonder which law cancelles which out,....
BTW we are for the most part comparing Canada's v USA's laws pertaining to guns,...but I know that you compare them just as much with most other countries too,...

and get a similar point of view from them,...
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 519
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:16:58 PM
any federal one would
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 520
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History
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/15/2005 8:28:06 PM
the one that does allow guns in church was signed by Bush in 1997,...
and the other one that doesn't,...was the existing federal one,...

Off the top of my head I can't remember when Bush first came to office but,...
if he was Pres,..back in 97,....then they both are federal laws.....

like I said,...weird eh?
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 521
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/16/2005 3:18:17 AM

Off the top of my head I can't remember when Bush first came to office but,...
if he was Pres,..back in 97,....then they both are federal laws.....

like I said,...weird eh?
He became pres in 2000... the church one must be a texas law.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 522
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/16/2005 4:51:11 AM

reading all the words instead of skimming,...before you rebutt may help you avoid little miss speaks like this.

Sorry, normally when one begins inserting editorial it's an indication the specific quote has ended. I'll try to take the time to sort through your mind numbing editorials to see if I can get to your point and still maintain your original reference intent.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 523
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/16/2005 4:57:54 AM
Tim, relax. Understand that not everyone's going to live up to your expectations, and not everyone's as impressive to you as you are. Take the points; try to learn something from someone else. It'll be fun, I promise. That way, people can learn from you too, if you'd like to share.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 524
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/16/2005 6:11:37 AM
Nit, you seem to follow me around and take issue with everything I post.... have I somehow wronged you in a former life?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 525
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/16/2005 6:14:58 AM
I think I will start a new business, Kevlar Pulpits Inc.

Guns in church ?

Anyone for a new bumper sticker ?

" I have faith in my Lord, but I still carry a .45 for back up "

( Actually, it probably already exists.)
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