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 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 551
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Re: Gun ControlPage 23 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)
Half...
I tried really hard to figure out your point, but I have to admit you lost me....
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 552
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 5:28:26 AM
Sexy&

^^ This is a really odd attitude for a "free thinking" American to have and the double standards never cease to amaze me. .........

What double standard? I personally do not advocate forcing our values or morals on anyone, and I don’t appreciate anyone forcing theirs on me. See, no double standard here....
I don't mean to sound cavalier, but Canadian gun laws affect Canadians, not US Citizens, if they are or are not acceptable to Canadians, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. US gun laws affect US Citizens, not Canadians ... if our laws are in some way offensive to foreigners, so what?
I couldn't agree more with your take on cultural influences! I would even venture to say that a good many Americans are tired of our tax dollars being spent as World Police; it's not something we voted for, it’s something the elected officials did for us, and a lot of them have & will continue to lose their jobs because of it. In my humble opinion, we should withdraw completely from the UN, since we can't seem to agree with fundamental enforcement tactics of UN resolutions. Rather, I think we should focus our attention and resources on our own problems. Odds are we'll be even less popular if we do, given the catastrophic effect it would have on the global economy, so we're kind of in a no win situation ... but at least we won't be offending our allies by trying to "enlighten" other nations who, like us, really don't want to be enlightened.

As for the "generalizations" Montguy has made re American people I have to admit I have had very similar experiences as he has and it's hard not to form a general impression of a social group when you keep meeting memebers of it that paint a very consistent picture of how they are.

You two need to hang out in better bars the next time you come to the states! A confrontational encounter will always be a more prominent memory than a pleasant one, and one dose of sour grapes will always be the focal point of any experience and doesn’t seem to be diluted even by hundreds of uneventful encounters.
If I were to form an opinion of Canadians based on my encounters on POF, it wouldn't be pretty either.... but those encounters were with individuals, not an entire nation and I don't think any one person is representative of the "collective" thought of an entire nation.... not even Monty, although I suspect he tries very hard to get his arms around it!
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 553
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 7:32:45 AM
That one is easy.... an AK47 is a soviet designed military assault weapon, previoulsy issued to military throughout communist block countries. There are Soviet, Czeck, Yugoslavian, Chinese and Korean manufactured versions of the weapon.
The weapon became prominent in Viet Nam War given the reliability and unique versility. (It can fire ammunition from the M-16 / AR-15 US Military Assault Weapons without modification, however is not the same caliber.)
 Im listening
Joined: 7/17/2005
Msg: 554
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 9:09:50 AM
"but at least we won't be offending our allies by trying to "enlighten" other nations who, like us, really don't want to be enlightened."
well foxefire it is easy to see how you agree


cause being enlightened

isn't high on your list of priorities
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 555
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 9:22:01 AM
error
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 556
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 9:29:53 AM


timpommell
" What double standard? I personally do not advocate forcing our values or morals on anyone, and I don’t appreciate anyone forcing theirs on me. See, no double standard here....
I don't mean to sound cavalier, but Canadian gun laws affect Canadians, not US Citizens, if they are or are not acceptable to Canadians, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.
US gun laws affect US Citizens, not Canadians.
... if our laws are in some way offensive to foreigners, so what? "


... i re-refer you to my post, (Msg: 654) on page 27.
...a point that i, and Monty have made several times and one which you continuously
refuse to acknowledge. (we, btw, ... live about 30 minutes from your American border.)



marita_b
"I remember when the us dropped these yellow boxes of food on Afganistan,.... "


... i do too marita.
~ And for some quite stunning information concerning those yellow packages, see:


" ... physical similarities between an unexploded U.S. cluster bomb packet,
... and a U.S. air-dropped food ration.."


America at war - washingtonpost.com / Camera Works (Photo) - October 31, 2001
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/attack/atwar/011031/5.htm

In addition...

Cluster bombs are prohibited by the terms of Article 35 of the Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) which states:

"2. It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering."

Article 13 of Protocol II additional to the Geneva Conventions provides that:

"2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. ..."

i do NOT judge American citizens. However, i see it as a MAJOR Problem when American citizens are often Completely Unaware of things like this.

<-------( gotta run. ...if there are responses, i'll check back later)
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 557
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 10:10:24 AM
actually I did know that about the cluster bombs,..what made it even worse is both were about the same size,...same colour,...and dropped in the same area,....I just didn't want to open the door of the barrage of defensive responses I imagined this would invite,...but since you did,...lola,....there is another site that has a great picture,...
http://fremasonarywatch.org/brightyellow.html

So these starving people had to take the risk,...food,...or cluster bomb,...(there were also some that had medical supplies in them) and in 2001 when these were dropped,...Diana Princess of wales (who was already dead) and who had publicised the whole bombing of civilians issue,...anyone claiming not to know the worlds stance on the issue would have a serious credibility issue,...Geneva convention not with standing,...although you would think the military leaders are taught all about the geneva convention, before they are issued troops to lead into battle,....

but assumptions are always bad aren't they?,.....

which is why anyone who has a computer can check all of this for themselves,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 558
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 11:43:35 AM
Trying to get the number from any of the littany of site who write about this is virtually impossible,...but it also bears mentioning that these bombs don't just kill,...they mame even more than they killed,..which is their design after all,....

however they don't just mame and kill,..they are also proffitable,....

To replace the mines used in the first war in the gulf,....(9598 of them in fact)
two companies were given the contract,....
ALLIANT TECH SYSTEMS OF HOPKINS MINNISOTA
AND,....OLIN ORDENANCE OF DOWNEY CALIFORNIA,....

These contracts were valued upwards to 2 BILLION dollars,....
and this number was as of September 2004

The reasong no numbers of casualties specifically killed by cluster bombs,...is because all casualty figures are blended to come up with one number,....

As for how many people suffered because of tainted food is completely unclear from any of the sites I checked,...I couldn't find even one reported case verified,...I did see a report in which Rumsfeld said that,...

No food FROM and handed out by the USA is tainted,..
and there are other food handouts from global humanitarian organization, which are not tainted,.....

although the Taliban has comfiscated food packages and there is no such guarantee from food handed out by them,...It is unclear as to whether this statement was made for it's propaganda value or was indeed made because of verified information,.....
 SexyandBrainy
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 559
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 12:45:00 PM
@timpommell did you purposefully leave the second part of my name out? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you got tired of typing half way through it. Reason I ask is because I've noticed on here whenever I see people feel threatened by something I say that is the first thing they do, is either attack the first part or second part of my name. Anyway...I'm sure that's not you...



What double standard? I personally do not advocate forcing our values or morals on anyone, and I don’t appreciate anyone forcing theirs on me. See, no double standard here....



ok well it will be safe to say then that you are not one of the many Americans who gloat about your hero Reagan who helped defeat communism in Russia. Not one of the many who discredits and can't comprehend the crusade of someone who gave up a life of comfort and wealth to spread a different messsage by the name of Che Guevara.


I couldn't agree more with your take on cultural influences! I would even venture to say that a good many Americans are tired of our tax dollars being spent as World Police;


rest assured your tax dollars being spent abroad to "help" all those sinking nations does not go there without there being some underhanded exploitative purpose behind it. Also rest assured it's not going to be YOU, or your neighbour who reaps the benefits of those investements (because they are investements, don't kid yourself into thinking it's "good samaritan" money being spread abroad) it's going to be the General Motors, MacDonald's, Microsofts, Merck, Pfizer's who will reap the benfits...not the "Jerome Smiths", because Jerome is going to his inner city school hoping to get there alive and back because he has a dream, he wants to beat the system and make something of himself but if the system doesn't kill him first some gang member with a fiream WILL. So when "we" the nosey neighbours of the north poke our noses in something that doesn't pertain to us "at all" like gun control it's because we have compassion for those that are born into a viscious cycle that is impossibe to get out of but because it is disguised as being one of the freesest and most effective systems in the world a lot are conditioned to accept that for face value and not see who the real victims are! Sometimes looking at things form the outside enables us the have a deeper view rather than only seeing what meets the eye.



You two need to hang out in better bars the next time you come to the states!


I go to the states frequently, Manhattan being on of my fav cities in the world attitude and all...and when I am there I usually stay at the Soho Grand or The Paramount, eat at Nobu and drink at Bubble Lounge...heard of any of these places? I can tell you the best places to hang out at and see when visiting a lot of major cities around the world...can you tell me that? I also like to go off the beaten path when travelling, but maybe that's just me. You see I've travelled to enough places where Americans go to the tourist areas...chances are if I go off the beaten path I will find people from everywhere around the world except for Americans. Why is that? This is beyond making a generalization it's a very consistent common observation. And a lot of the places I used to love travelling to have now become overproduced and have lost their charm, destinations that are very Americanized and mainly attract American people.

My experience with the American people is mainly when travelling abroad and I just don't have the time to recount the endless stories of where a "stereotypical" American attitude has stood out like a sore thumb. So when I make these generalities I speak from experience. I could also make statements like "germans love to travel" and the Brits are always the ones crowded around the bar....yes these are very general statements but they are consistently commonalities in all my travels.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 560
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 1:45:45 PM
^^^OOh, ouch....I AM NOT AN UGLY AMERICAN

I admit some of us are self absorbed, but consider this: Our US (we're all Americans here, no?)defense spending (our tax dollars) are what allow you to travel the world freely. You may say it is arrogant, but really think about it. Brainy (No need to state the obvious given) we all have our bad apples, and becuase we have more disposable income to travel you see more of ours. When I go to New York I don't just go down to The Village and get schlossed at McSorley's, I also wander Harlem when visiting my bro teaching at Columbia. America does not have a good reputation abroad now, our fault for sure. Yet that is why you may not see some of us beyond the security of familiarity. New York is great, but Boston, San Francisco, New Orleans, that is our real America. Go eat a Perogi in Pittsburgh, some Navajo Frye Bread in Albuquerque. Don't write off all of us becuase of the ugly Americans you've come across. After 911, right after, in Ireland my brother could not buy himself a drink, they were all on the house from a grateful and friendly world neighbor. However much I might disagree with Tim I respect the h*e*l*l out of him for speaking his mind. Life is boring without a multitude of kennings. Happy trails beautiful brainy, and remember for every ugly one of us there are dozens more that will be more than happy to try and appreciate your own kenning.I know I do
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 561
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 2:23:50 PM

I admit some of us are self absorbed



I really don't see this aspect of your culture as negative. In a real sense, all roads lead to Rome. Your culture, media, and military and economic power have dominated the globe for most of this century.

You people are in the middle of that, and it's normal to be " pre-occupied " by your own nation.

Americans are who they are, because of what they are.

Guns are a part of that. It's that "individual rights' thing at a primary level.

As to how different we are sometimes, just an example. Get on a bus in Montreal sometime, during rush hour, and bump into someone.

Most times , THEY will say " I 'm sorry" .
 SexyandBrainy
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 562
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 2:25:49 PM
@double cabin: I never called anyone an "ugly American" why the insulting labels? if what I said resonates on a certain level then that is a different story. I don't think I used any blatant insulting laguage in any of what I said.


I admit some of us are self absorbed, but consider this: Our US (we're all Americans here, no?)defense spending (our tax dollars) are what allow you to travel the world freely.


I'm sorry but I don't see how your country's involvement abroad has anything to do with facilitating my personal travels!?!?

I know the real America, I have eaten hoagies on the boardwalk of Atlantic City, Phillie Cheese Steaks in Philladelphia, White Castle in Ohio, Original Pancake House in Boston and some of the best pizza in Brooklyn (even know of some places in Rochester) . Unfortunately I have not had the chance to visit the west coast and would love to see places like San Fran and Huntington Beach Cali. The only reason I mentioned Manhattan is because it's the place I frequent most because I have friends who live there and because Timpo had said that I did not know where the "good"bars were whatever that means....!?!?

My observations are general ones that are not isolated from what many others see as well. If I were to make observations purely based on personal existential biassed I would have said something like "I like that American men are far more agressive when it comes to the whole dating game. Any time I visit the States I find it really cool that men have no qualms with coming up to me and talking to me at a coffee shop or bar, where in Canada men sit around the bar waiting to get loaded before they even build up enough courage to say hello" Now THAT my friend is a personal observation that is purely based on my experience alone!

Walking up to a restaurant in one of the islands off of Spain and having the host hearing the group we are with speak "american"english, making us wait longer than necessary, giving us the utmost attitude (me understanding Spanish knowing what is going on because the guy is talking to some other employee making some wise crack about how the stupid "gringos" should wait) and only to see the transformation in his face when one of us mentioned we are Canadian: priceless!!! For everything else there is Mastercard!
 SexyandBrainy
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 563
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 2:43:30 PM
The debt that was a burden to us was a backbreaker to the USSR, and added to the rotting infrastructure and food shortages it was too much and they folded like a house of cards. Could it have been done differently? Maybe, but history shows that this worked well.


what exactly is it that history shows worked well?

ok let's forget about Reagan then....(seems there is always some guy at the wrong place at the wrong time and that is how every polititian seems to be faultless in history's occurences) Please explain to me how America's involvement in the collapse of the Soviet Union has benefitted Russia aside from the glitzy shopping malls you might see spread throughout? Also, you have to question why is it that so many Russians are emigrating from a place that is a better "more improved"version of what it was? Ask why so many are nostalgic to an imperial past? All questions that cannot go unnoticed.


Please don't use the "brainwashed" card that is old and tired..
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 564
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 4:59:05 PM
~ Perhaps that can be accomplished by the use of a brief --> video ? !

... as a small aspect of different topics concerning --> Anger Management ?

And without the necessity, of placing firearms into the hands of children
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 565
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 9:13:35 PM
Lola

... i re-refer you to my post, (Msg: 654) on page 27.
...a point that i, and Monty have made several times and one which you continuously
refuse to acknowledge. (we, btw, ... live about 30 minutes from your American border.)

Sorry, didn't see anywhere in there indicating where "I" have a double standard. If you find the border town you live in to be too hostile, perhaps you should consider moving...
For someone so quick to identify generalizations, you certainly do quite a bit of it yourself. Do you personally know of any illegal weapons transactions conducted by specific American citizens, or do you actually consider all of us to be in on the conspiracy, as your posts would indicate? Opportunists come in two forms, entrepreneurial and criminal, neither is limited to citizenship of a particular nation.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 566
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 9:42:45 PM


timpommell
(msg:972)
" What double standard? I personally do not advocate forcing our values or morals on anyone, and I don’t appreciate anyone forcing theirs on me. See, no double standard here....
I don't mean to sound cavalier, but Canadian gun laws affect Canadians, not US Citizens, if they are or are not acceptable to Canadians, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.
US gun laws affect US Citizens, not Canadians ... if our laws are in some way offensive to foreigners, so what? "


"... i re-refer you to my post, (Msg: 654) on page 27.
...a point that i, and Monty have made several times and one which you continuously
refuse to acknowledge. (we, btw, ... live about 30 minutes from your American border.) "

You continously skip over what you refuse to acknowlege.
It's become highly predictable, Tim !

Metropolitan Montreal is not a "border town". And let me make it REAL Simple for you.

Your Surplus of ever present firearms are making their way, illegally across the Canadian
Border. Canadians are dying as a result of it. And these Guns are not magically making
their way here by themselves. Canadians smugglers wouldn't be able to accomplish this
without the cooperation of American Gun Dealers and that ever so present supply.
~ Given that this has been pointed out to you specifically, numerous times,..
...(so you couldn't have *missed it*), ...
...i truly find your recent comment below, to be the epitome of arrogance.



US gun laws affect US Citizens, not Canadians ...
.... if our laws are in some way offensive to foreigners, so what? "


~
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 567
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 10:15:30 PM
Lola
I'm not skipping over anything... You seem to be missing one key piece of the puzzle. Canadians smuggling guns into Canada is not an international problem. It's a little like blaming Juan Valdez because you drink to much coffee ... if you don't want YOUR criminals bringing guns into Canada then stop them... You don't need to rewrite our laws or the laws of any other nation, just do a better job enforcing your own.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 568
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/18/2005 10:49:43 PM


timpommell
(msg:764) "It seems that the US is perceived to be somehow responsible for supplying the Canadian criminal element with illegal weaponry, yet you don’t hear of international charges being levied ... could it be that the claims are baseless? "





Montreal Guy (msg:765)
"The U.S. has less stringent firearm regulations than Canada with many states having no licensing requirements. The firearms market in the U.S. is large, with an estimated 222 million firearms in legal circulation. The U.S. retail industry has been exploited as legally acquired firearms are being illegally diverted to Canadian traffickers and smuggled across the border. As well, secondary U.S. firearm markets, such as gun shows and flea markets, are significant sources of Canadian-destined illicit firearms. In many states, these secondary markets operate without any regulatory procedures to monitor and document firearm sales and/or exchanges.

source: http://www.cisc.gc.ca/AnnualReport2004/Cisc2004/firearms2004.html


~ i had stated to you,...



~ lola ..(msg :772)
" US " responsible " ? Legally ? ... i would say, no.
However, the US citizens who Do, ... knowingly participate and collude with Canadian traffickers in their intent, ... to smuggle illicit firearms across the Canadian border ... would, ... in my view, be legally liable." ...

" ... Ultimately the responsibility to protect our country, from illicit substances and products, lies with us. AT our Canadian borders and ports. The proliferation of guns on your side though ... (a hop, skip, and a jump away ), does significantly increase that challenge.
In other words .... You Guys ... arn't helping, ... Damn it !!! "


Your answer (msg:774) -> Deflection to disagreement of over military action in Iraq. ( ! )



" Canadians smuggling guns into Canada is not an international problem."


Oh, YES, ... Tim, ... it is.
Your refusal to acknowledge the responsiblity, and liability of shady US Gun Dealers,
has been consistent, .. and Extremely perplexing.

And your minimizing this problem, lethal to many Canadians, by comparing it, in jest,
to, " blaming Juan Valdez because you drink to much coffee ... ".
Is in my Opinion, ... Really Disgusting !
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 569
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 4:59:19 AM
Actually, quite interesting.

A Canadian, mailing marijuana seeds into the USA is a international criminal and worthy of extradition.

An American, assisting in the process of smuggling guns into Canada, is merely a good businessman.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 570
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 5:01:26 AM
Lola

Your refusal to acknowledge the responsiblity, and liability of shady US Gun Dealers,
has been consistent, .. and Extremely perplexing.

And your minimizing this problem, lethal to many Canadians, by comparing it, in jest,
to, " blaming Juan Valdez because you drink to much coffee ... ".
Is in my Opinion, ... Really Disgusting !

Of course we have shady gun dealers... and shady car salesmen... and shady politicians... What laws in Argentina should we go after to help curb our problems?
The Chicken Little approach is great for attracting attention to an issue, but does little to stop the sky from falling. It is not illegal in the US for a gun dealer to sell a gun; the crime you take issue with comes into play when a Canadian criminal smuggles it into Canada. I’m sorry but I still don’t see it as an international problem.

PS. I thought the Juan Valdez thing was pretty funny.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 571
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 5:02:31 AM
How is a foreign national buying a weapon there ? I do believe that is illegal, is it not?

The criminal act is when it is sold to a "Canadian criminal" to be smuggled back into Canada.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 572
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 5:14:36 AM
Monty

A Canadian, mailing marijuana seeds into the USA is a international criminal and worthy of extradition.
An American, assisting in the process of smuggling guns into Canada, is merely a good businessman.

So you're saying that if a Canadian investigation uncovers an American citizen's involvement in gun smuggling, your government wouldn't initiate extradition proceedings, but would allow the extradition of someone who mailed marijuana seeds? Hmmmm.... seems as though your state department has some priority issues to work out...
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 573
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 5:22:52 AM
If a gun dealer sells a firearm without proper documentation from the purchaser, then of course he or she has committed a crime. More likely false documentation is presented by the purchaser, rather than criminal intent by the seller.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 574
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 8:01:01 AM
Extradition to Canada of an American citizen for firearms smuggling ?

It will never happen my friend.

You don't even enforce your laws against your citizens:


Once crime guns are traced, and criminal gun traffickers discovered, they must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. According to a report by the Americans For Gun Safety Foundation, thousands of gun crimes are not prosecuted by federal law enforcement. In North Carolina, from 2000-2002, there were only 23 federal prosecutions for illegal gun trafficking, despite that in 2000 alone, 3,308 crime guns were traced to sources in NC, including 1,421 crime guns used in other states. Of an estimated 22,000 firearms stolen in NC from 2000-2002, there were only 16 federal prosecutions for stealing firearms.

http://www.ncgv.org/trafficking.htm


More Gun Dealers Than Gas Stations

In 1992 the Violence Policy Center released More Gun Dealers Than Gas Stations, a study which focused national attention on abuses of the law by FFL holders. The study revealed that, at the time of its release, the number of Americans who possessed a Type 1 FFL—the basic federal license required to sell guns in America—outnumbered gas stations 245,000 to 210,000.1

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) established the current federal licensing system for manufacturers, importers, wholesalers, and dealers of firearms. Under the GCA, any person "engaged in the business" of making or selling firearms must be licensed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF).a

From 1968 to 1993 almost anyone who was not prohibited from owning firearms and had a location from which they intended to conduct business—including their own home—could obtain an FFL. For $30 an applicant could receive the three-year license, allowing him to ship, transport, and receive firearms in interstate commerce and engage in retail sales. License holders are exempt from many of the restrictions on the sale and transfer of firearms that private citizens are subjected to under the GCA. Unlike ordinary citizens, licensees are:

able to buy and sell firearms in interstate commerce and receive firearms via common carrier;
able to purchase firearms from wholesalers at discount and in unlimited quantities; and,
exempted from state and federal waiting periods, background checks, licensing, or registration requirements.
In 1986, Congress passed the National Rifle Association-backed Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which further eased regulation of licensees and placed restrictions on ATF's ability to weed out illegitimate gun dealers.b

FFLs are a key source of guns for illegal gun traffickers and a reduction in ATF's ability to monitor FFLs would certainly result in an increase in illicit firearm availability. In the June 2000 report Following the Gun, ATF noted: Although FFL traffickers were involved in the smallest proportion of ATF trafficking investigations, under 10 percent, cases involving FFL traffickers were associated with the largest total number of illegally diverted firearms, over 40,000, as compared to the other trafficking channels.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealgas.htm


With all the current problems with criminals, how do you expect to oversee that many people who can sell guns to others ?

And how does a guy selling firearms out of his house really do a proper background check on those he sells to ?


http://w3.agsfoundation.com/reports.html


edit : A study released last month by Americans for Gun Safety using government data showed that from 2000 to 2002, 1,113,398 federal crimes were committed with firearms. But only 25,002 resulted in prosecutions. Twenty of 22 major federal gun laws are virtually ignored. For example, 99.6% of applicants found to have lied on gun-purchase background checks aren't prosecuted.

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/press_061603.html
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 575
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 9:24:41 AM
A fair reply, but it overlooks one important point.

Most of the criminal problem with firearms ( both in Canada and the USA) comes from handguns, it's pretty hard to emulate one of those "gangstas" while carrying a hunting rifle or a shotgun.

Since handguns are pretty much impossible to own in Canada, and only 50 people are legally licensed to carry them out of a population of over 30 million. Those that own handguns for other purposes are owners of a restricted weapon, and must follow strict regulations.


Year
Canada
US
US/CAN

Population
1998
30.2 m
270 m
8.9x

Number of All Firearms
1998
7.4 m
222 m
30x

Number of Handguns
1998
1.2 m (restricted firearms)
76 m
63.3x

Guns per capita
1997
.25
.82
3.3x

Firearms Death (Rate per 100,000)*

Canada
US
US/Can

Accidental deaths with Firearms
1998
0.2
0.3
1.5x

Suicides with Firearms
1998
3.4
6.4
1.9x

Total Firearms Deaths
1998
4.3
11.4
2.7x

Crime Statistics (Rate per 100,000)
Canada
US
US/Can

Murders with Firearms 1998 0.5
4.4
7.9x

Murders with Handguns 1998 0.23
3.3
14.5x

Murders without Guns 1998 1.3
2.3
1.8x

Robberies with Guns 1998 18
63
3.5x

Roberries without Guns
1998
78
102
1.3x

Canada
US
Can/US

Overall Homicide rate per 100,000
1998
1.83
6.62
3.6x

% of homicides with firearms
1998
27.3%
66%
2.4x

% of firearm homicides with handguns
1998
46%
75%
1.6x

Statistics compiled from Centre for Justice Statistics; FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Data, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada Homicide Survey; Research and Statistics Division Department of Justice (Kwing Hung) June 2001

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