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 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 576
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Re: Gun ControlPage 24 of 50    (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50)
Monty
You really shouldn't go so far to the left to get your reference material, it takes away from the credibility of your position. I believe MajMike has provided significant other resources, which in the very least, cast a great deal of doubt on the accuracy of the data provided by the Americans For Gun Safety Foundation and the Violence Policy Center. (Just as your sources cast doubt on the accuracy of his.)
As for the number of "Federal" weapons crimes in the US being so disproportionate to the number of Federal prosecutions, I don't see any annotation as to how many were not actually considered "Federal crimes" by the prosecutor other than the total number prosecuted... Nor do I see how many of the 1,000,000 + were actually crimes that the states prosecuted. Generally speaking, State penalties are more severe than Federal penalties, and the Fed's simply defer adjudication jurisdiction except in extreme violations, or interstate transactions.
Your information paints a picture of the Wild West, which simply isn't an accurate representation of the US. I am so very thankful that we don't heed the press' interpretation of the law or allow a reporter to determine innocence or guilt on any issue, or the jurisdictional boundaries that should be observed, otherwise given the extreme positions of the left and right, nearly all of us would be in jail for one thing or another.
As for the number of FFL licenses, it may very well be that we have 250,000 registered "dealers". Especially given that not just new dealers require them, also all resellers such as pawnshops are required to have them as well. (That means some guns had to be registered twice.) Factor in the collectors who obtained their license just to eliminate the middleman mark up, and that ominous number seems to begin to diminish tremendously ... I believe 250,000 is .1% of our population, that’s 1/10th of 1%, or, one gun dealer for every 25,000 people … what is the Canadian population comparison to Canadian dealers?
Just to debunk your source even further, let’s consider it from the gas station perspective…. Do you honestly believe that one gas station can service a population market base in excess of 25,000?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 577
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 9:37:12 AM
I have visited the USA many times.

While you are correct that it is not the Wild West ( ok, maybe Texas... ) , it was an interesting experience to see the differing attitude about firearms.

Just driving down South ( The Carolinas, Georgia) and seeing the amount of pick up's with firearm rack ( sometimes filled) driving around was an eye opener. That is something you NEVER see here.

Or how about that small strip mall I saw in Florida in the 80's. A liquor store, a BYOB bar, a firearms store...and a bank. Criminals...just park once.

I told the story about one of our US salesmen. He was driving in Vermont with his handgun on the dash when pulled over by a policeman. The policeman said " Is that loaded ? " , to which my co-worker replied " Is yours ? "

He didn't get a ticket for speeding, and the two talked about their mutual love of weapons for about ten minutes. Only in America...

When he told that story to us at the Christmas party last year, the Canadians laughed their heads off.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 578
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 9:53:16 AM
Monty

Statistics compiled from Centre for Justice Statistics; FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Data, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada Homicide Survey; Research and Statistics Division Department of Justice (Kwing Hung) June 2001

Take another look at the statistics you posted... it seems with fewer guns, you have a disproportionate percentage of gun related homicides... If I'm reading the data correctly, the data shows we have a lower percentage of gun related homicides 66% in relation to percentage of guns per capita .88, while you have a higher percentage of gun related homicides 27.3% in relation to significantly lower percentage of guns per capita .22. It kind of shoots holes in your theory that fewer guns = fewer gun crimes, and easy access = more gun crimes.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 579
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 9:58:31 AM
fox, Thanks for contributing that. And from a Canadian source.

But if your also attempting to make a specific point with this post, please clarify it.
i for one, am aware of some of the details concerning the increase of recent gun
crimes in Toronto.

The racial criminal demographics, and difficulties with controlled substances at borders,
in no way minimizes, the huge contribution that US Gun dealers are making, by their
involvement in this illegal Gun Trade.

And as a side note? Exactly, how efficient is American border control ? How has it
eliminated your Drug Trade ? ...or illegal immigration ?

I believe that Americans, as our neighbors, have been fortunate that Canada, to my
knowledge, has not been known as a border entry point for illegal products or substances.
Or significant, levels of illegal immigration.

In Spite, .. of the Erroneous deflection of blame, to our border controls after 911.
...and for those who forgot, the highjackers flew directly into the US on visa's,
which were THEN (!).. post 911, ...offered for renewal. ..or was it their pilot license ??

In fact, it was a very sharp Canadian border agent, in Vancouver, who prevented a
US Catastrophy, by stopping a Terrorist from entering the US, with a car loaded with
munitions, meant to target a US site for demolition.

oh wait, sorry i forgot. -->Affordable Medication ! Yeah we have been kinda guilty of
letting that stuff get into the US.
. . And your $$$$$$$ Pharmeceutical Companies have been going absolutely *Nuts* !
Whoaaa !!! ...

Talk about desperate appeals to the Canadian government to IMMEDIATLY HALT that traffic !

~ ~
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 580
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 9:59:03 AM
Ya think that might have something to do with the fact that criminals here have pretty easy access to guns because of your laws? Oops this was in reply to Tim's post, just didn't get it up fast enough.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 581
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:16:55 AM
Lola

The racial criminal demographics, and difficulties with controlled substances at borders,
in no way minimizes, the huge contribution that US Gun dealers are making, by their
involvement in this illegal Gun Trade.

That's a pretty bold allegation, where is your back up? Indications from border patrol reports suggest that the weapons confiscated are predominately individuals attempting to cross the border with them, not some international arms conspiracy. It doesn't seem to make mention of the number of guns taken from US citizens who were too ignorant to realize you have to have permission to take even a hunting rifle across international borders...
I know you're going to take exception to this example, but I'm going to use it anyway....
Cuban cigars are legal in Canada, but not in the US. Crossing the US / Canadian border with Cuban cigars is a no-no on this side of the line, not that one. By purchasing one there, we have not violated your laws or ours... bring just one into the states, and you've broken a number of US federal laws. Should we jail the Canadian cigar retailer for aiding in the commision of a crime? The manufacturer? How about we view it realistically and simply prosecute the poor schlub who actually committed a crime rather than trying to hold the rest of the world accountable for his or her poor decision making skills.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 582
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:21:05 AM
Halftime

Ya think that might have something to do with the fact that criminals here have pretty easy access to guns because of your laws?

Obviously by my posts, no I don't.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 583
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:25:52 AM


timpommell ,
" I believe MajMike has provided significant other resources, which in the very least, cast a great deal of doubt .."


Having examined those sources and Mike's 'conclusions', on this thread, i disagree.
And i have explained why.



" I am so very thankful that we don't heed the press' interpretation of the law or allow a reporter to determine innocence or guilt on any issue, or the jurisdictional boundaries that should be observed,.."


Certainly, the National Rifle Association has a Much better take on the whole situation.



" As for the number of FFL licenses, it may very well be ... Especially given that ..
... also all resellers such as pawnshops are required to have them as well. (That means
some guns had to be registered twice .) ... Factor in (hypothetical) ... that ominous
number seems to begin to diminish ... "
(Conclusion->) " I believe 250,000 is .1% of our population that’s 1/10th of 1%, or,
one gun dealer for every 25,000 people."


Tim ? (!) ~ How Did you do on math tests. Did you ever actually show a formula.
Or did you offer hypotheticals to convince your teacher that you were right ?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 584
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:27:40 AM
Tim,

I think you are overlooking the fact that Illegal weapons here are doing the most damage.

Since we have lower rates of gun ownership, and the restrictions placed on gun owners is MUCH higher than in the USA - there is a much greater dynamic towards illegal guns causing more problems.

Just the fact of those recent handgun incidents points that out rather nicely. Handguns here are very difficult to get legally. If you have one, get ready to be examined in GREAT detail by the government.

Those guns are far more likely to be illegal ones smuggled from the USA, since they are exceptionally rare here in a normal citizens hands.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 585
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:39:45 AM
Lola
[quotte]Having examined those sources and Mike's 'conclusions', on this thread, i disagree.
And i have explained why.
And? Because YOU disagree, is that some sort of indication the rest of the planet has to as well? Rats, it seems I've missed another meeting of Lola's school for singular thought.

Certainly, the National Rifle Association has a Much better take on the whole situation.

Do they? I wouldn't know, I'm not a memeber and as I've said before numerous times, using any information from the extreme left or right diminishes the credibility of any position, unless of course your intent is to openly represent extremism.

Tim ? (!) ~ How Did you do on math tests. Did you ever actually show a formula.
Or did you offer hypotheticals to convince your teacher that you were right ?

Ouch, that hurt... Ahhhh the ever present Lola assault on intelligence... Please, share with us the correct way to demonstrate the equation....
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 586
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:43:52 AM
fox, i have a better one...

Cuban Cigars are not a controlled substance except, by the purchase of minors.

Guns however are highly controlled product in most industrialized countries.
Except America.

But hey, with the Massive profits going directly to...American Firearm Manufacturers,
who then invest a % of that profit into enormous funding for Government lobbying to
block all potential, Gun Control legislation, which btw, pretty much seals the deal on
their future profits... Perhaps it's Big business whose calling the shot's for your society,
instead of the 75% of the American people, who Do Not own Firearms.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 587
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 10:56:40 AM

I think you are overlooking the fact that Illegal weapons here are doing the most damage.

I'm not overlooking it at all.... if anything you're overlooking that the majority of our gun crimes involve illegal weapons as well.

Let's say that in a perfect world, you got your wish, and the US abolished private ownership of all guns that could be smuggled into Canada from US sources. Would the illegal firearms issue go away, or would your criminals simply smuggle them from another source like Mexico? My point is that it isn't an international problem... you can't keep chasing your problems across international borders, you really need to deal with it in Canada. That's where the offense occurs, and that's where the impact is felt...
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 588
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 11:06:13 AM
Foxe

2. Cigars don't kill....

I'm sure big tobacco is happy to have your endorsement j/k


1. America should lift it's trade sanctions with Cuba.

2. Cigars don't kill. Guns do.

1. ) I agree, I think we should have relaxed the trade restrictions on Cuba years ago...

2.) Actually neither kills, they are both inanimate objects. My point was to demonstrate that anything can be legal in one place and illegal in another, and that criminal intent of the user is the lynchpin, not the existence of the object.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 589
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 11:08:28 AM

you can't keep chasing your problems across international borders..


That coming from an American recently ?

It's rather simple really. The more guns you have in a general population, the more chance of misuse.

Look at most of your shooting massacres. The guns there ( except I believe in the case of Columbine) are all legal guns. They were owned legally, and misused by people.

Break-ins of homes with legal weapons result in more guns in the hands of criminals.

Even a legal gun owner can "snap" over the years. There have been quite a few cases of that. Most "shooters" in the USA ( gun massacres now) are typically people that have no previous firearms problems.

Just look at those " going postal" incidents.

Due to the rather strict laws up here concerning weapons, they are rather rare. The prices for illegal ones are quite high - that proves that gun laws work here. If illegal guns were too easily available, prices would drop significantly.

Given the fact that prices are lower there, and guns much easier to purchase ( especially handguns - the most dangerous ones for society) it's normal that your guns will flow into Canada.

Both Americans and Canadians know a good market when they see one. It's a buy low, sell high mentality.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 590
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 11:15:07 AM
Lola

Perhaps it's Big business whose calling the shot's for your society,
instead of the 75% of the American people, who Do Not own Firearms.

Not owning a firearm doesn't make one anti-gun, any more than not owning a car makes one anti-private trasnportation. Talk about stretching the limits of mathematical probabilities....
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 591
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 11:29:58 AM
Monty
I believe your information is faulty
[quoteLook at most of your shooting massacres. The guns there ( except I believe in the case of Columbine) are all legal guns. They were owned legally, and misused by people.
I believe the majority of weapons used in premeditated violent crimes are / were not legally owned by the criminal.

Just look at those " going postal" incidents.

Those limited number of incidents were sensationalized by the press because of it occuring on federal property. The majority of the weapons used when "going postal" are not handguns as suggested, but actually long guns. (Semi-Automatic rifles, shotguns, etc.)

Due to the rather strict laws up here concerning weapons, they are rather rare. The prices for illegal ones are quite high - that proves that gun laws work here. If illegal guns were too easily available, prices would drop significantly.

So which is it, either your gun laws work or they don't.... if they work, then the need to revise US laws for your purposes is nonexistant, if they aren't readily available, then perhaps smuggling isn't the problem.... you can't have the issue both ways.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 592
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 11:52:48 AM
timpommell



" if anything you're overlooking that the majority of our gun crimes involve illegal weapons
as well ...


i don't believe Monty has done that. And i have tried unsuccessfully to point that out
... over *several pages* of this thread.

That, ..
Was my whole point, in reference to the Majority of Gun related Deaths of Americans.
i kept being told that you can't change a criminal's mentality. And i not once said you
could. .... i was told that cars were the greater problem, and swimming pools, and
American health care Malpractice (!) ... and knives and bats and rocks (!)

i kept stating the fact that the Availability of Guns in so many American homes,
Particularly by the irresponsible gun owners, who neglect to store their guns safely,
and aren't preventing this theft, ARE the, ...MAJOR contributer to this problem.
i even occassionally, positively acknowledged the safety practices of many members
here on this thread. ( Including Mike, on more than one occasion.)
Overall, the consistent response to this point, was more deflection to 'other' comparisons,
leading to more confusion.



" Would the illegal firearms issue go away, or would your criminals simply smuggle them from another source like Mexico? My point is that it isn't an international problem... you can't keep chasing your problems across international borders .."


i disagree again.
~And in that case, it would be your own borders, that would be More at risk than ours.

And, stemming the Illegal Gun Trade will never happen as long as American Gun
Manifacturers are economically wielding the degree of influence that they are now.
As well as their Corporate Marketing,--> The Enormously Funded Propaganda Campaign.
ie.. The continous sensational "scare tactics", re: --> Crooks and Big Bad Gov't !!
$$$ ..Ca-ching ..$$$ ..Ca-ching ..$$$ ..Ca-ching ..$$$ = Americans Dying !
~ ( How's that for a formula, Tim ? )

And if most are not based in Mexico, i'd venture that, they'd export their manufacturing
plants and all those American jobs there in a NY minute, if any new legistlation compelled
them to do so.

~ One step, towards a truer democracy, Would be the elimination of political funding by,
Economically Powerful special interest Corporations. Oh, but isn't that being blocked too ?

..
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 593
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 12:08:18 PM


timpommell
" So which is it, either your gun laws work or they don't.... if they work, then the need to revise US laws for your purposes is nonexistant, if they aren't readily available, then perhaps smuggling isn't the problem.... you can't have the issue both ways. "


Our Gun Laws ARE working. Our Criminals are managing to -->Bypass these Laws by taking
advantage of American,... lax or apparently in some areas, Nonexistent Gon Control Laws.

We can legislate all we want, but that doesn't stem the flow of Illegal Guns coming through
our shared border. This, is how this can be considered, an International problem.
Refusing to acknowledge it, .. doesn't make it nonexistent.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 594
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 1:32:38 PM
Lola

Our Gun Laws ARE working. Our Criminals are managing to -->Bypass these Laws by taking
advantage of American,... lax or apparently in some areas, Nonexistent Gon Control Laws.

We can legislate all we want, but that doesn't stem the flow of Illegal Guns coming through

Ok, so your gun laws are working. EXCEPT the enforcement application of it to weapons smuggled in from the US.... is that your point? The vast majority of weapons used in violent crimes are ones smuggled from the US? Do you honestly believe that really is your problem? Call me crazy, but to me, that’s an indication your gun laws are NOT working. An illegal weapon no matter what the source is still an illegal weapon, is it not? The logic you apply seems to indicate that the manufacture and sale of a firearm somehow creates the criminal element, and it’s quite frankly preposterous. It’s no different than blaming the automotive industry for car theft … if the car hadn’t been manufactured and sold, then the criminal wouldn’t have been able to steal it… Simplistic I know, but same logical path…
As for my acknowledging it as an international issue, the state department seldom solicits my opinion on matters of diplomacy and international law... Say hello to Juan for me!
 SexyandBrainy
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 595
Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 2:23:06 PM
Well I have to say I do agree with you on this one Tim. We need stricter laws in Canada to help crack down on those illegal firearms coming in here. However I will say that 99.9% sure they are coming from the US so it doesn't take much to figure out the proximity vs no gun laws position of the US vs the accessibility of contrabands to Canada.

BUT blaming you guys for our firearm black-market is like blaming cocaine addiction on Colombia. At some point you have to take responsibility and better sooner than later.


Our Gun Laws ARE working. Our Criminals are managing to -->Bypass these Laws by taking
advantage of American,... lax or apparently in some areas, Nonexistent Gon Control Laws.

We can legislate all we want, but that doesn't stem the flow of Illegal Guns coming through
our shared border.



obviously our gun laws are NOT working.


By the way Timp thank you for the email but to answer that, I have not "just" been to Nobu in NY. If you go back and re read my posts you'll see that I have travelled to quite a few places in the US and have had the authentic experience. And yes of course I can form an opinion on Americans from a few encounters I have had with its people either in the US or travelling abroad. How else do you form an opinion if not by being there and dealing with the people first hand?!?! Short of living in the US I have been there enough to gauge my own impression and conclusions.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 596
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/19/2005 3:10:50 PM

sexyandbrainy
" BUT blaming you guys for our firearm black-market is like blaming cocaine addiction on Colombia. At some point you have to take responsibility and better sooner than later."


i agree that it is first, and foremost Our responsibility, to adequetely monitor our own
borders. Actually, i had stated that earlier.

However, since 911, there has been a great deal of discussion concerning the permeability
of our shared border and the projected potential problems of Terrorist entry into the US.
from Canada. In fact, border areas surrounding the entirety of North America has been
considered potentially problematic.

i personally believe that progressive legislation concerning Gun Control, has increased
safety for Canadians. Our, persistent gun related crimes are most often involving the
use of illegally obtained firearms. And That supply is primarily coming through the US
border, .. as you seem to agree.


Tim, since you consistently try to make comparisons between guns and other things...

On the subject of tobacco, in Canada retailers Are fined, (read penalized) for selling
Tobacco to minors. Why aren't your present gun laws being enforced more aggressively ?
Particularly, in cases of illegal Gun distribution ?

And in which States are young people eligible to legally obtain a firearm,
and yet are still considered too young to vote?
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 597
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/20/2005 3:44:55 AM
Sexy&Brainy

By the way Timp thank you for the email but to answer that, I have not "just" been to Nobu in NY. If you go back and re read my posts you'll see that I have travelled to quite a few places in the US and have had the authentic experience. And yes of course I can form an opinion on Americans from a few encounters I have had with its people either in the US or travelling abroad. How else do you form an opinion if not by being there and dealing with the people first hand?!?! Short of living in the US I have been there enough to gauge my own impression and conclusions.

My point is that if you're basing your opinions of Americans on the type of people that frequent Nobu, then you have formed an opinion on probably less than 1% of the population. I'm sure you've read posts where Canadians have seen gun racks in pickup trucks, and I sincerely doubt you'd find anyone at Nobu who has either. Now if you were to hang out at Gray's in NY, the Varsity in Atlanta, or Coconut Grove in Miami you would find a sampling from all social classes, and I think you'd see we're not all that different under the surface.
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 598
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/20/2005 4:09:33 AM
Lola


Tim, since you consistently try to make comparisons between guns and other things...

On the subject of tobacco, in Canada retailers Are fined, (read penalized) for selling
Tobacco to minors. Why aren't your present gun laws being enforced more aggressively ?
Particularly, in cases of illegal Gun distribution ?

Selling tobacco to minors is a crime in the US as well.
Actually my comparisons are demonstrations of your failed logic, I don't equate a gun to a cigar, I equate criminal intent to criminal intent using inanimate objects.
I'm not aware of any cases that aren't prosecuted. If you read my post in response to Monty, you'll see that simply because the federal government didn't prosecute doesn't mean the state government didn't. In most cases state penalties are more stringent than federal, and the feds defer adjudication jurisdiction to the state. A single crime that violates both federal and state laws are generally not prosecuted by both entities. Why go to the expense of two dog & pony shows when the penalties will be served concurrently?


And in which States are young people eligible to legally obtain a firearm,
and yet are still considered too young to vote?

I see where you're going with this, and let me just go ahead and cut you off at the knees so that this doesn't get blown out of proportion... In NO State can a minor legally obtain a handgun. No State PERIOD. In no State can a minor legally obtain ammunition that can be used in a handgun. IN fact, I'm not aware of any state where a minor can purchase ammunition at all, BUT, I know I used to be able to purchase shotgun shells in KY when I was 16, and even then ammunition purchases were registered with proof of ID required.... I don't believe they've allowed that in years though. I’m pretty sure you have a list of states that allow the purchase of long guns by minors, that you’re just dying to share with us, so please, go ahead and post it, the suspense is killing me…
Of the states you're going to post, I'd venture to say all of them are rural type states with extremely low rates of gun violence per capita... Just trying to make sure we're comparing apples to apples....
 TimPommell
Joined: 1/13/2005
Msg: 599
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/20/2005 5:26:33 AM

A common example to the contrary: if you have a protection from abuse order against you (basically a restraining order by a family member, etc) there is a federal law that states that you can not possess a firearm for the duration of the order, even if the "no firearms" box is not checked (which would fall under state law.) Because of this, many states won't touch it with a ten foot pole, and it is VERY hard for the federal gov't to enforce this law. Consequently, very often, not much effort is made.

I think it's an issue of priorities, and to be perfectly honest, an issue of appearance. Many gun laws exist because of singular specific cases that were heavily lobbied, without intent to ever enforce.
The State judge doesn't "check" the box because he or she doesn't feel the person is a risk for extreme violence, and may feel the removal of any firearms is an unnecessary infringement on rights, and / or perhaps serve to further excite the issue. Now then, the State by virtue of not checking the box, demonstrates resistance to the broad brush application of the Federal law, and the Fed's, in the interest of preserving the division of Government, will in most cases ignore the infraction so as not to muddy the jurisdictional waters and create resistance for other more meaningful cases.
I am in no way minimizing the threat, I know many people have been killed by estranged spouses, but the gun did not create the criminal intent, and the premeditation was not shortened by the existence, absence of a firearm likely would not have changed the outcome. I realize there is an argument that the additional step to obtain a firearm may have created an adequate cooling off period, but in reality weapons of convenience, not limited to only firearms, are used to perpetrate crimes of passion. In the majority of those cases, whether they had access to my .45 or Monty's baseball bat, the outcome would have been the same.
 lola05
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 600
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Re: Gun Control
Posted: 8/20/2005 10:06:26 AM
timpommell



I am in no way minimizing the threat, I know many people have been killed by estranged spouses, but the gun did not create the criminal intent, and the premeditation was not shortened by the existence, absence of a firearm likely would not have changed the outcome. I realize there is an argument that the additional step to obtain a firearm may have created an adequate cooling off period, but in reality weapons of convenience, not limited to only firearms, are used to perpetrate crimes of passion. In the majority of those cases, whether they had access to my .45 or Monty's baseball bat, the outcome would have been the same."


~ i completely disagree with you.



~ "the gun did not create the criminal intent,"


Here, we're back again, at your assumption that *someone* has stated that the object,
(the Gun), 'causes' or "creates the criminal intent". i have maintained that,....
... the easy access, or availablity of the Firearm,... Facilitates... the criminal intent.



~ "the premeditation was not shortened by the existence,
absence of a firearm likely would not have changed the outcome."


If a firearm was the weapon of choice, and the person did not own a firearm, and was in fact restrained by a court order, "the premeditation" would not only be lengthened, but possibly the use of a Firearm could be eliminated unless that person has access to an illegal Firearm.
... Which, even in a society, flooded with illegal guns, this would have, as you said, extended the time period of premeditation. In addition, there actually could be, a possibility of police intervention if this person happened to have approached say, an undercover cop, or even contacts of the person, protected by the restraining order. Either way, the criminal misuse of a firearm could have been hindered and/or eliminated.



~ " ... absence of a firearm likely would not have changed the outcome, ...
. . . . but in reality weapons of convenience, not limited to only firearms,
. . . . . are used to perpetrate crimes of passion. "


~ Tim, imagine for a second, that You are the victim of a "crime of passion".
And there is.. Immediate access to a Gun, compared to a bat or a knife ?

. . Generally, survival rates of people attacked by people with bats and knives,
are known to be, .. Way better, that survival rates of people where a firearm was used.
. . The people attacked with knives and bats have stood a way better chance of survival,
and of having the chance of being able to live to talk about it.
. . Being unarmed, what would you rather be up against ? ... a guy coming at you with a knife or a bat, or a guy who could shoot you dead from a distance of many feet, or yards away ?

~ Consider, these weapons in terms of the threat of prosecution following the crime.
And the the potential Deterrance possibilities. If the "crime of passion" is not an instant response, but instead involves some level of premeditation, most perpetrators will try avoid prosecution. The use of a knife, or a bat, would involve the logistics of close proximity to the victim. Which, particularly in cases of an already present 'restraining order', would be, by far, riskier. The police are already aware of a potential aggressor, and there could be a greater likelihood of witnesses, and potential intervention by witnesses.
... Further, there is always the risk that the victim will fight back with whatever means
they possess.
. . So, hypothetically, using knives or bats, would increase the risks of potential prosecution, and personal injury for the perpetrator.

~ Now, compare these risks, to the potential risks to the perpetrator who chooses to
use a Firearm. Premeditation may consider, the elimination of risks of consequential personal injury, as well as risks associated with probable prosecution.
. . The perpetrator can accomplish their intent at greater distances from the victim, thereby reducing the possibility of witnesses. Consider, as an example, a "sniper" shooting of a victim at the workplace, parking lot of the victim. Without a gun, there would be the necessity of getting close and therefore, more chance of being seen by witnesses, such as co-oworkers.
. . Given that direct evidence is vital to successful prosecution, these factors would likely cross the mind of most perpetrators in their presumed process of premeditation.

So, in my view, ... accessability to a firearm, could greatly affect, "the outcome".

And Tim, i am fully confident that you are capable of figuring these things out,
on your own, without a need for my pointing things out to you...
What is more perplexing, ...given my opinion of your obvious intelligence,
is why you obstinately refuse, to do so, ... on your own. -------------->
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